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Also, I'll take the opportunity to shamelessly promote my homebrew Fighter:
Cool Fighter
You can make everything from an armored beatstick to a rune-crafting battle-commander! Also: Superman! XD
I'll also share this homebrew:
Because I really love it! Simple, but fun and can be easily and safely used in conjunction with RAW if you wish...
I'm probably a bit too proud of this one!
XD
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I'm still not convinced it's worth saving. I mean no offense towards the fighter remix you've posted - not even a teeny tiny bit. But it hits all the problems I mentioned before. It doesn't really do anything except try to have some better numbers. It's better than the normal fighter but it still doesn't justify the Fighter's existence.
It does a bit more than that. Its relationship to Fear Effects and 5-foot steps are unique, for example. And it inherently gets mastery over one entire weapon category, which is unique and fairly neat.
And I feel like having a default fighting class that's mechanically on par with Slayer and Brawler but has access to heavy armor and any fighting style it likes is actually a pretty solid idea.
I've never found the lore warden to be particularly compelling, aside from trading armor proficiencies for more skill points and such. While you can burn feats or cross-class to regain armor proficiencies, I just don't see the appeal of the lore warden. I just don't think it's that good.
Aside from the fact it doesn't really even resemble a fighter anymore (light armor, no weapon training, no armor training, no bravery; not that any of those are any good) all it replaces on the fighter is it gives them up to a +8 on CMB checks (every other martial can mimic this or dwarf it while being more well rounded) and allows them to attempt skill checks to get some modest bonuses to hit and damage (and if they fail they have NO bonuses to hit and damage).
Uh...Lore Wardens keep Weapon Training. And actually, they keep Bravery too, they just delay it until 6th level. All they lose are the armor stuff. In exchange, they gain extra skill points, a bonus Feat, a scaling CMB bonus, bonuses against enemies they make Knowledge checks on, and the ability to negate crits with an Acrobatics check.
There's a reason that archetype gets called broken. It's flatly better than a baseline Fighter. Which would be why I mention it as one of the only ways to make a viable fighter at the moment.
And again we're back to a class who's only conceptual niche is "have bigger numbers" for the sake of...what?
The conceptual niche is 'generic fighting guy' or 'master of war'. You can do that with Slayer, but the connotation is slightly different.
Besides, Monk and Brawler are pretty similar thematically, too, they're just different enough for it to be interesting to have both. I feel the same about Fighter and Slayer.
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Further, let's be real. Deadmanwalking...if it wasn't for the fact that the fighter simply exists, would you have been trying to create him? Let this question sink in.
A lot of people cling heavily to the fighter because it's there. It's been there for a long time. It's a rotting sacred cow. You see the fighter, he doesn't live up to his fluff, you try to make him better while keeping him fighter-y, he still doesn't live up to his fluff. You, I, and countless other people have tried to make it better with lots of little hack jobs, but virtually all of them fail because in the end it's still a fighter.
And the only way to make it better would be to start from scratch and make a new class. But then the question becomes, why would you create a fighter? What niche are you trying to fill? The fighter claims to fill many niches, it fills almost none.
At what point would you sit down and say "We need a class that wears armor and fights with weapons. Except he's gotta have better numbers in those things than all the other martial characters. Except not too much, because we don't want to completely throw off the random number generator. That is the entirety of the concept. Oh, and he can resist fear some too, but not be immune to fear because that's a Paladin and Barbarian thing"?
At what point, if the fighter didn't already exist, do you step up and say "We need a class - a core class even - that is this guy"?
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Further, if the concept is "master of war" and what not...would it even resemble the fighter mechanically in any way other than being called a Fighter? Literally all of the fighter's features suck. The fighter is likewise a hindrance on the system as a whole (its cancerous existence is the reason why a lot of otherwise mundane but cool feats are barricaded behind feat taxes, or why feats like Disruptive have Fighter 6 instead of BAB+6 as prerequisites).
Would, if we actually were honest with ourselves and made a class from scratch to fill the role of "generic fighting guy" or "master of war", would it even look like a fighter? I strongly think not. At least if it were going to be a well designed class.
Sidenote: The "generic fighting guy" is actually already a thing. It's called the warrior NPC class (and it is also better at the fighter for doing its job, which is being a beefy beatstick NPC). >_>
What we'd probably come up with wouldn't even look like the fighter in its current incarnation and that would be nothing but a good thing.
If the Fighter didn't exist we'd still want the niche that the Fighter is supposed to fill; ideally, the Fighter is the big tough warrior that stands toe to toe with the most vicious enemies through pure determination and lots of training. "I'm so good with X that I can do Y without the help of your puny spells" is a niche that a lot of people, myself included, want filled.
I think the "badass warrior who relies almost exclusively on physical prowess and will power to overcome fantastical challenges" is a very popular character concept .
I think it'd be bad to not have a class that does that. Fighters have a great concept... It's their execution that sucks. Mostly because their creators either didn't fully understand the system they had created or because they focused so much on making it "realistic" and "thematic" that they failed to give the class the appropriate tools it needs to be fun and effective. They forgot D&D and PF are, before anything, supposed to be fun!
Sure, fun is subjective... But there are factors that greatly contribute to how fun something is. Someone could have fun watching paint dry, after all...
OTOH I've heard convincing arguments that "badass 100% mundane warrior" is a low-level concept for low-level play. In 3.5, the proposal was that the Fighter (Rogue, etc.) classes should only go up to level 6 and set players up for a wide variety of prestige class options.
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While I disagree with Permanently scrapping the fighter, Ashiel's suggestion does have some merit based wholly on the fixes you've described... I'd rather they scrap the fighter for a year or so, fix feats as they are(without having to worry about a class that can pile them on as fighters do) so that classes with abilities like bypassing feat taxes no longer need to, removing a lot of feat bloat, and stop creating needlessly complex fixes for a class outside of editing the class itself(like AWT options) and then recreate the class with the baseline system improvements in mind so that it is comparable and performs uniquely, while also being possible to build well from...
If we're talking radical system redesign, sure. To my knowledge, we weren't.
And actually, even if we were, who says the Fighter's bonus Feats can't stay if we cut Feat trees short? Then it'd actually be awesome, which is something fighters need.
Brawler's the Class that would likely need the most changes under that system, not Fighters.
Further, let's be real. Deadmanwalking...if it wasn't for the fact that the fighter simply exists, would you have been trying to create him? Let this question sink in.
Probably. I'd look at Slayer and see design space for that guy, only without Sneak Attack and with heavy armor. And likely with a slightly less sneaky/more overt toolbox.
A lot of people cling heavily to the fighter because it's there. It's been there for a long time. It's a rotting sacred cow. You see the fighter, he doesn't live up to his fluff, you try to make him better while keeping him fighter-y, he still doesn't live up to his fluff. You, I, and countless other people have tried to make it better with lots of little hack jobs, but virtually all of them fail because in the end it's still a fighter.
Whoah, hold on here. I'm currently running a game with a Lore Warden Fighter using my linked fixes. He's pretty solid, and one of the more effective characters in the group in combat. Outside of combat, he's a knowledge-monkey of epic proportions and not half bad at most non-social skills. His social skills are terrible, but that's the only area he's not at least fairly good in. He lacks magic, and thus the other PCs definitely have advantages he doesn't, but I think almost all envy the 10-foot step thing and his crit avoidance.
It feels a lot like the pouncing dwarf Barbarian in a previous game, really, in terms of effectiveness. So I wouldn't say that it has failed at all.
And the only way to make it better would be to start from scratch and make a new class. But then the question becomes, why would you create a fighter? What niche are you trying to fill? The fighter claims to fill many niches, it fills almost none.
Agreed...regarding the baseline Fighter. But that's hardly inevitable in such a Class. Redesigns, additional class features, and the like can make that very much not the case, if you choose to let them.
At what point would you sit down and say "We need a class that wears armor and fights with weapons. Except he's gotta have better numbers in those things than all the other martial characters. Except not too much, because we don't want to completely throw off the random number generator. That is the entirety of the concept. Oh, and he can resist fear some too, but not be immune to fear because that's a Paladin and Barbarian thing"?
Sure, that's a problem, but that set of mechanics doesn't have to be the entirety of the Class. It is mechanically in the corebook, but thematically, there's room for the heavily armored master swordsman...he just needs a much better suite of capabilities.
At what point, if the fighter didn't already exist, do you step up and say "We need a class - a core class even - that is this guy"?
Slayer's really the only thing even allowing you to say this, since 'non-magical fighting guy' is a pretty necessary fantasy archetype. And, again, I think a version that's a bit less mechanically incentivized to be sneaky is valid.
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OTOH I've heard convincing arguments that "badass 100% mundane warrior" is a low-level concept for low-level play. In 3.5, the proposal was that the Fighter (Rogue, etc.) classes should only go up to level 6 and set players up for a wide variety of prestige class options.
That only applies if you assume mundane must exclude extraordinary, which is one of the most pervasive and damaging lies in the system.
OTOH I've heard convincing arguments that "badass 100% mundane warrior" is a low-level concept for low-level play. In 3.5, the proposal was that the Fighter (Rogue, etc.) classes should only go up to level 6 and set players up for a wide variety of prestige class options.
Given how that turned out I believe it.
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I'm currently building a halfling fighter (eldritch guardian) with pig familiar. The halfling fighter has a bunch of teamwork feats that get passed down to his familiar through the eldritch guardian's share feats feature.
Class Skills: The eldritch guardian adds Perception, Spellcraft, and Use Magic Device to his list of class skills, but does not gain Intimidate, Ride, or Swim as class skills.
I plan to max out perception get UMD high enough to auto success firing wands.
Planning Outflank and Dirty Fighting to do all sorts of mayem with the pig. Mauler fam now and probably Decoy at 11th level.
Should be fun. I'm also thinking about anti caster feats like disruptive.
Also, I'll take the opportunity to shamelessly promote my homebrew Fighter:
Cool Fighter
You can make everything from an armored beatstick to a rune-crafting battle-commander! Also: Superman! XD
I'll also share this homebrew:
Because I really love it! Simple, but fun and can be easily and safely used in conjunction with RAW if you wish...
I'm probably a bit too proud of this one!
XD
Won't deny that yours is more fun looking.
But 2 combat feats at 1st?!Practice Overcomes Talent lets you pretend to have higher stats for Prereqs. Basically a way to get around sill prereqs.
You grant Weapon Training at 1st (no issue with this, my Cunning Strike Rogue does something similar).
Bravery now applies to mind control so less dominating? But Compulsion effects still work like Charm (but at least he is still in control)
Fighters become Teamwork members like Inquisitors/Cavaliers?
Man At Arms is what Ex should mean. Very appropriate, but most people don't like Ex effects that grant almost magical effects.
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Further, if the concept is "master of war" and what not...would it even resemble the fighter mechanically in any way other than being called a Fighter? Literally all of the fighter's features suck. The fighter is likewise a hindrance on the system as a whole (its cancerous existence is the reason why a lot of otherwise mundane but cool feats are barricaded behind feat taxes, or why feats like Disruptive have Fighter 6 instead of BAB+6 as prerequisites).
That's easy enough to change while still having a Fighter class, though.
Would, if we actually were honest with ourselves and made a class from scratch to fill the role of "generic fighting guy" or "master of war", would it even look like a fighter? I strongly think not. At least if it were going to be a well designed class.
Depends on what you mean by 'look like Fighter'. It certainly wouldn't have two bad Saves, nor lack skill options, nor have no abilities beyond a few numerical bonuses and bonus Feats. No. It'd be much more than that.
But would it have numerical bonuses? Yes. Would it have bonus Feats? Definitely. Would it get some advantage against fear? I'd think so. So...Fighter has a suite of abilities such a Class would have. They just only have some of them. Thus, improving them is a reasonable route to achieve such a thing.
Sidenote: The "generic fighting guy" is actually already a thing. It's called the warrior NPC class (and it is also better at the fighter for doing its job, which is being a beefy beatstick NPC). >_>
Sure...but what about the players who want to play a fighting-man who doesn't rage or use magic? Or the great champion/general feared the world over for his personal prowess?
Now, of course you can work around not using Fighter for those, but sometimes, just having a default for those roles would be so convenient.
What we'd probably come up with wouldn't even look like the fighter in its current incarnation and that would be nothing but a good thing.
How would it be fundamentally different? Obviously, it'd be more and better but what would be different about it?
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Rough example of a generic fighting guy class who's purpose is to be a generic warlord sort who is super generic in battleness and also not a waste of space in everything and shames his mother.
1. Martial Chassis
2. Some sort of actual pacing mechanic. Seriously "I have bigger numbers" is not a good mechanic because you need some way to rev up or slow down or else it's like having a car that only drives at one speed. Either you are too fast for driving around in town or you'll never win the race when it matters.
For this example, I'm going to use a rough concept for a class I was intending to design at the request of my brother for my RPG system.
3. Ability to do actually fill generic roles. So we'll give 'em some talents or something. So he'll pick some talents every couple of levels that relate to doing martial things, overcoming obstacles, and general adventuring. Kind of like feats but hopefully with less suck.
FIGHTGUY
This guy fights and stuff.
Statblock
You don't care. It's got a d10 HD and full BAB. Nothing to see here.
Proficiencies: Weapons and armor. Fightguy is proficient in them.
Fight Pool: A thing you actually care about. Fightguy generates fight pool for fighting. Also for yelling, screaming, kicking, punching, pissing on his enemies, using some class abilities, and for looking at people funny. More fight pool means fightguy fights better.
Fightguy can expend fight pool to fight better. This means fightfuy fights better by fighting, because we heard you like fighting, so fightguy lets you fight while you fight, dawg.
Fightguy Talents: So fightguy gets stuff that lets him do things like shrug off bad status ailments; scream at his enemies and make them cower like sissies; rally the hearts of his people; have people to rally; buff his people so they have hearts to rally; s!%% like that. A lot of these things give him Fight Pool, so you can do fight stuff.
BLEED FROM THE EYES: Fightguy is hardcore. Because of this, fightguy's list of things that generate fight pool is called Bleed from the Eyes. It's up to you whether this represents his preference for gouging the eyes of his opponents or the fact he keeps killing things when he probably should be having a one on one with god about what he's going to do in the next life. Either way...
Fightguy gets fight pool from attacking enemies. He gets more fight pool for missing enemies because it makes him mad and he wants to fight even more next round.
Fightguy gets fight pool when enemies attack him. He gets more fight pool when enemies succeed at attacking him, because fightguy wants to fight them even more then.
Fightguy gets fight pool for using fightguy talents that say he gets fight pool. Such as "Scream at the top of your lungs" which gives fight pool and makes you and your friends want to murder all the Englishmen badguys like in that one movie you watched with the guy with the greatsword and kilts and stuff. Or the ever favorite "I'm PISSED!", which makes enemies afraid around you.
THIS IS MY ULTIMATE FIGHT TECHNIQUE, THERE ARE MANY LIKE IT BUT THIS ONE IS MINE (Ex): Fightguy gets stuff that lets him do crazy things like tear the heads off kobolds and use them as bowling balls or pants (mostly pants). These terrible and frightening techniques allow them spend all that fight pool stuff to do stuff. What kind of stuff? Epic fight stuff. Like leaping tall buildings in a single bloodbath, or keep fighting while they have the Dead condition (wait, you mean it really doesn't do someting now?), or go super sayagina 9001 like CuChulain (it's cannon yo).
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@Ashiel:
The basic problem with that is that not everyone likes pools of points, especially not ones that fluctuate a lot. Some people find keeping track of them either frustrating or dull.
Now personally, I like point pools, but many people who play martial characters exclusively tend not to. That's a valid system preference, and one the basic martial fighting class should probably adhere to.
FIGHTGUY
This guy fights and stuff.Statblock
You don't care. It's got a d10 HD and full BAB. Nothing to see here.Proficiencies: Weapons and armor. Fightguy is proficient in them.
Fight Pool: A thing you actually care about. Fightguy generates fight pool for fighting. Also for yelling, screaming, kicking, punching, pissing on his enemies, using some class abilities, and for looking at people funny. More fight pool means fightguy fights better.
So similar to Arcane pool?
Maybe 3 + Con mod? Increases by 1 per level?Basic ability to improve fighting somehow.
Fightguy Talents: So fightguy gets stuff that lets him do things like shrug off bad status ailments; scream at his enemies and make them cower like sissies; rally the hearts of his people; have people to rally; buff his people so they have hearts to rally; s!&% like that. A lot of these things give him Fight Pool, so you can do fight stuff.
Ooh, like rogue can we take a feat instead of a talent?
BLEED FROM THE EYES: Fightguy is hardcore. Because of this,...
So he gets a point when missed or dealt damage.
I an dig it.
Maybe steal from Iron Heroes?
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@Ashiel:
The basic problem with that is that not everyone likes pools of points, especially not ones that fluctuate a lot. Some people find keeping track of them either frustrating or dull.
Now personally, I like point pools, but many people who play martial characters exclusively tend not to. That's a valid system preference, and one the basic martial fighting class should probably adhere to.
Well it's like this. Literally every class that actually works has some sort of core mechanic that they manage. I've been over this on the boards before. If a car doesn't operate at different speeds it can't drive on the road. Every well designed class has some sort of "normal speed" and "ramming speed".
And it's not just about the mechanic that gauges your speed. It's about being able to fill a lot of roles. "I don't get scared easy" is a trait, not a class concept. Which is why whatever the class is, it needs lots of options that you can pick between within the class - like rage powers or rogue talents - that let you mold your character to be like what you want.
Its combat effectiveness should come primarily from the class (like the other good classes, the other 20% can be cool class specific magic junk like furious weapons and boots of friendly terrain or something; but bonus points if you can make those things yourself).
It's combat effectiveness should likewise not get in the way of doing OTHER things. Which a lot of its talents and class features should improve, similar to how Paladins and Barbarians and Rangers have bonuses to saves or ways of getting immunity to lots of bad things that casters do to them (like how rangers have in house access to freedom of movement and nondetection).
If you want a class that has no mechanics at all and just has big numbers and lots of feats well...the Warrior NPC class is the best that I've found. When building NPCs, it is pound for pound just better than the Fighter because it gets a 2:1 HD-to-CR rate, which generally means it has more HP, more BAB, better saves, way more skill points and better maximum skill values, and better feat access.
Remember that NPC classes have a much worse ability score array than PC classes and they don't get full HP on the first hit die.
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Well it's like this. Literally every class that actually works has some sort of core mechanic that they manage. I've been over this on the boards before. If a car doesn't operate at different speeds it can't drive on the road. Every well designed class has some sort of "normal speed" and "ramming speed".
Slayer doesn't. Not for practical purposes anyway. Works fine. I mean, there's Sneak attack, but that's not quite the same thing.
Unchained Rogue likewise. Now that's only debatably a working class, but I'd argue its offense (the part we're talking about here) works fine.
And it's not just about the mechanic that gauges your speed. It's about being able to fill a lot of roles. "I don't get scared easy" is a trait, not a class concept. Which is why whatever the class is, it needs lots of options that you can pick between within the class - like rage powers or rogue talents - that let you mold your character to be like what you want.
I don't really disagree. Advanced Weapon Training and (presumably) Advanced Armor Training give those to the Fighter though.
Its combat effectiveness should come primarily from the class (like the other good classes, the other 20% can be cool class specific magic junk like furious weapons and boots of friendly terrain or something; but bonus points if you can make those things yourself).
Agreed.
It's combat effectiveness should likewise not get in the way of doing OTHER things. Which a lot of its talents and class features should improve, similar to how Paladins and Barbarians and Rangers have bonuses to saves or ways of getting immunity to lots of bad things that casters do to them (like how rangers have in house access to freedom of movement and nondetection).
I tend to agree, to at least some degree. But that doesn't necessarily require a pool of points to spend.
If you want a class that has no mechanics at all and just has big numbers and lots of feats well...the Warrior NPC class is the best that I've found. When building NPCs, it is pound for pound just better than the Fighter because it gets a 2:1 HD-to-CR rate, which generally means it has more HP, more BAB, better saves, way more skill points and better maximum skill values, and better feat access.
For an NPC, sure (though that's only debatably how NPCs work...we've had that discussion before and I won't do it again here).
But what if you want to play a PC that's simple to use? Some people do.
Fighter at the moment isn't the best class for that (Slayer is) but it's a valid desire.
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I had a new player in my campaign a few months ago. She wanted to play an archer, and her husband built her a fighter. It went okay; full BAB and knowing you need to take the Point Blank feat tree will get you pretty far along the path toward combat effectiveness at level 4--but she never fully got the hang of the more complicated parts of the game, because she was rarely good at them. I included the Stamina stuff as a fighter-specific mechanic and it was so complex for her (it's not really, but it's a really big list to look through) that she never used it. The leap from "basic shooting people" to "here's this huge subsystem you can benefit from!" never really happened. She didn't really figure out skills, either, since she had so few of them.
That's anecdotal evidence, but usability studies typically provide valuable feedback without reaching true levels of statistical significance, which is what this is more in line with.
I'm not going to contribute to the more animated, er, ongoing back-and-forth, but I do agree with the original proposition, which is that the fighter class is a poor way to on-ramp new players in a way that teaches them about the fundamentals of the game. Fighters just interact so little with so many subsystems that it requires a certain level of system mastery on the part of the player to make a fighter with the flexibility of many of the other full-BAB classes.
I also agree with the Paladin being a better, if still poor, choice for on-ramping, simply because the skill system is of critical importance and the paladin will usually end up with 1 skill point per level. But that, at least, will teach you about action economy and magic along the way.
@Ashiel:
The basic problem with that is that not everyone likes pools of points, especially not ones that fluctuate a lot. Some people find keeping track of them either frustrating or dull.
Yeah this. It was the first thing that popped into my head when I read FIGHTGUY. Not every class needs a resource pool and I don't think I'd want the 'non-magical fighting guy' to have one. I'd rather see style type turn on/off abilities and/or once a fight abilities. I'm all for mechanics and not just numbers, I just don't want them tied to a pool.
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FIGHTGUY
This guy fights and stuff.Statblock
You don't care. It's got a d10 HD and full BAB. Nothing to see here.Proficiencies: Weapons and armor. Fightguy is proficient in them.
Fight Pool: A thing you actually care about. Fightguy generates fight pool for fighting. Also for yelling, screaming, kicking, punching, pissing on his enemies, using some class abilities, and for looking at people funny. More fight pool means fightguy fights better.
So similar to Arcane pool?
Maybe 3 + Con mod? Increases by 1 per level?
Basic ability to improve fighting somehow.
The actual mechanic doesn't even matter too much. It doesn't even necessarily have to be a pool. It might even be something a simple as "ready" vs "not ready" or something. It might be a cooldown system where all your stuff takes X rounds to become available again but each time something triggers your FIGHT POOL thingy you cooldown faster (imagine if a dragon had a thing so that when you kicked him in the balls he got pissed and could breath fire again sooner).
The point is, it just needs to be some sort of mechanic that lets them pace themselves. Lack of pacing is both poor in terms of gameplay and in terms of climactic roleplaying tomfoolery. I mean, take any other martial...
"Before you stands the man who murdered your husband and now sits poised to become a demigod."
Paladin: "I activate divine bond, I smite him, I relentlessly attack him without yielding as I burn through my uses of lay on hands as if I were never going to use them again!"
Barbarian: "I enter my usual rage, but this time I begin burning through my rage powers at top speed, pushing myself to ever more fearsome heights. I rage cycle every round, slamming him repeatedly with incredible feats of combat and heroism, as if I were going to be dead moments from now."
Ranger: "He is my enemy above all else, and the enemy of my bloodhound. He is also my quarry, and no attempts to elude my wrath shall comfort him. My wrath shall not be stopped, for not even magic can hold me back, no poison shall still my arm, no eye shall see my ambush. He is within my domain, and my domain is death."
Fighter: "I...uh...fight him as hard as I did his goblin janitors on the way in."
Ooh, like rogue can we take a feat instead of a talent?
Fightguy Talents: So fightguy gets stuff that lets him do things like shrug off bad status ailments; scream at his enemies and make them cower like sissies; rally the hearts of his people; have people to rally; buff his people so they have hearts to rally; s!&% like that. A lot of these things give him Fight Pool, so you can do fight stuff.
Sure, why not? It's just a conceptual overlay. Which is why talent based classes are superior design. Having less things other than a centralized mechanic or trait hardcoded makes it better for adding expanded content to later, better for fleshing out character concepts, and better for fitting into different campaigns.
BLEED FROM THE EYES: Fightguy is hardcore. Because of this,...So he gets a point when missed or dealt damage.
I an dig it.
Maybe steal from Iron Heroes?
Never played/examine iron heroes, so I can't say. However I like the idea of getting a sort of consolation prize when your fight-guy fails on attack rolls or gets hit despite his AC, which in turn allows you to follow up with a bigger thing that you can attempt. Keeps player morale high, ups your tempo, and (oh god, I'm gonna say it) rewards you even if you didn't min/max your to-hit rolls and AC to the moon and back (let the apocalypse begin).
But 2 combat feats at 1st?!
It's a bit front-loaded, but the class does provide great incentive to stick with it. Also, keep in mind that one of the combat feats is limited to one of those "I need this just to start my character concept" feats, such as Weapon Finesse and Throw Anything.
Bravery now applies to mind control so less dominating? But Compulsion effects still work like Charm (but at least he is still in control)
Indeed. Though I have to clarify it a little. Some people are still confused about what "mind control" means.
Fighters become Teamwork members like Inquisitors/Cavaliers?
Yup. Fighters should be really good at leading and working in tandem with their allies in combat.
Man At Arms is what Ex should mean. Very appropriate, but most people don't like Ex effects that grant almost magical effects.
Well, I don't think those people would like my homebrew anyway... They want mundane classes to be ordinary. I disagree. To each their own.
This thread is so painful to read.
Fighter did get a pool resource, in a splat book called stamina. BAB + CON. And it helps the fighter do a lot of the things we're complaining about, depending on what you want from it.
Not a new class, this class. It's like we're completely ignoring the fact that this thread is a derivative of the thread where we were discussing the state the class is in with the supplements paizo is releasing.
Stamina is not the same thing. To get it back you have to burn through buff durations between fights (which isn't the same concept, 'side from having a number that represents how much of something you have) and the effects are weaksauce.
Stamina is not the same thing. To get it back you have to burn through buff durations between fights (which isn't the same concept, 'side from having a number that represents how much of something you have) and the effects are weaksauce.
lolwut
The fact that the fighter gets them back at all makes it a better resource than rage rounds, and there are plenty of abilities that are in fact not weak sauce. On mobile now, but again this is not the thread for this discussion, check the other one for more stamina goodness.| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Thanks to this thread I am going to literally write a Slayer archetype that gives him Heavy Armor proficiency and submit it for publication to the 3pp that I occasionally freelance for.
If someone wants a full plate wearing, non-knight/paladin then Slayer will still be the class.
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This thread is so painful to read.
I guess I have met +1 masochist then. :)
Fighter did get a pool resource, in a splat book called stamina. BAB + CON. And it helps the fighter do a lot of the things we're complaining about, depending on what you want from it.
Still covered in issues, having to re-con lots of feats and stuff throughout the game, requiring an entirely new optional subsystem to be in place, etc, etc, etc. None of it is actually contained within the class (an issue for new players). Lots of issues.
Not a new class, this class. It's like we're completely ignoring the fact that this thread is a derivative of the thread where we were discussing the state the class is in with the supplements paizo is releasing.
Oh, nobody is making a new class. If they did, it'd be better off not being a fighter though, since none of the fighter's class features are integral to being a fighter apparently (in fact, Deadmanwalking who seems to be sitting in the "fighters are worth stuff, let's keep them" professes an archetype that trades away every feature of the fighter).
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This thread is so painful to read.
Fighter did get a pool resource, in a splat book called stamina. BAB + CON. And it helps the fighter do a lot of the things we're complaining about, depending on what you want from it.
Not a new class, this class. It's like we're completely ignoring the fact that this thread is a derivative of the thread where we were discussing the state the class is in with the supplements paizo is releasing.
And yet you still subject yourself to reading it. -_-
Stamina is okay but it's still a whole subsystem that ultimately still leaves the Fighter with problems like narrative agency.
At the end of a day if it still takes like 4 different books to build your Fighter that's still going to leave a bunch of people unsatisfied.
At that point why not build from a better chassis and save yourself time from poring over tomes?
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Thanks to this thread I am going to literally write a Slayer archetype that gives him Heavy Armor proficiency and submit it for publication to the 3pp that I occasionally freelance for.
If someone wants a full plate wearing, non-knight/paladin then Slayer will still be the class.
You'd also need some way to replace the Ranger Combat Styles or allow their use in Heavy Armor. They're the real obstacle in this, not the lack of proficiency, since they're essential in making the Slayer build that's 'Fighter, but better.'
But yeah, if you do that, it's suddenly a much more viable Fighter replacement in all circumstances.
Oh, nobody is making a new class. If they did, it'd be better off not being a fighter though, since none of the fighter's class features are integral to being a fighter apparently (in fact, Deadmanwalking who seems to be sitting in the "fighters are worth stuff, let's keep them" professes an archetype that trades away every feature of the fighter).
Uh...to reiterate:
Lore Warden trades away Armor Training and one point of Bravery. And nothing else except some armor proficiencies.
It keeps Weapon Training, the rest of Bravery, and all bonus Feats. In addition to all the stuff it gets.
Thanks to this thread I am going to literally write a Slayer archetype that gives him Heavy Armor proficiency and submit it for publication to the 3pp that I occasionally freelance for.
If someone wants a full plate wearing, non-knight/paladin then Slayer will still be the class.
You'd also need some way to replace the Ranger Combat Styles or allow their use in Heavy Armor. They're the real obstacle in this, not the lack of proficiency, since they're essential in making the Slayer build that's 'Fighter, but better.'
But yeah, if you do that, it's suddenly a much more viable Fighter replacement in all circumstances.
Oh, nobody is making a new class. If they did, it'd be better off not being a fighter though, since none of the fighter's class features are integral to being a fighter apparently (in fact, Deadmanwalking who seems to be sitting in the "fighters are worth stuff, let's keep them" professes an archetype that trades away every feature of the fighter).Uh...to reiterate:
Lore Warden trades away Armor Training and one point of Bravery. And nothing else except some armor proficiencies.
It keeps Weapon Training, the rest of Bravery, and all bonus Feats. In addition to all the stuff it gets.
Thanks for that reminder! Yeah I need to toss that in.
I was thinking of replacing survival and tracking stuff with a bonus to clue finding/information gathering.
The focus is a more Urban Slayer who finds out where his target is, armors up, then stomps his way into harms way in order to get his mark.
Build a fighter on the ranger chassis.
Instead of fe, grant wt.
Instead of ft, armor training.
For companion, a full-level dog or horse, or swap for a warlord bonus to allies.
For spells, make him a spon caster that learns specific magic tricks, and gets bonus magic tricks by int. Can learn from any arcane list , but always uses the wiz/sorc list if possible.
Gets bonus spells castable by con. I'd rule of thumb no more then 4 spells castable per the two base spells known per level.
You can keep pretty much all else the same. Might have to change a couple skills, add heavy armor and tower shield. He will not be a monster with skills, but at least he will have a bunch of them.
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Thanks to this thread I am going to literally write a Slayer archetype that gives him Heavy Armor proficiency and submit it for publication to the 3pp that I occasionally freelance for.
If someone wants a full plate wearing, non-knight/paladin then Slayer will still be the class.
You'd also need some way to replace the Ranger Combat Styles or allow their use in Heavy Armor. They're the real obstacle in this, not the lack of proficiency, since they're essential in making the Slayer build that's 'Fighter, but better.'
But yeah, if you do that, it's suddenly a much more viable Fighter replacement in all circumstances.
Oh, nobody is making a new class. If they did, it'd be better off not being a fighter though, since none of the fighter's class features are integral to being a fighter apparently (in fact, Deadmanwalking who seems to be sitting in the "fighters are worth stuff, let's keep them" professes an archetype that trades away every feature of the fighter).Uh...to reiterate:
Lore Warden trades away Armor Training and one point of Bravery. And nothing else except some armor proficiencies.
It keeps Weapon Training, the rest of Bravery, and all bonus Feats. In addition to all the stuff it gets.
So it's the weapon training that's the iconic fighter thing?
Or the bonus feats?Okay, here, check this out. Best fighter fix ever, right here.
Take Ranger
- Replace Favored Enemy with Weapon Training.
- Replace Track with +1/2 level to Acrobatics, Climb, and Swim.
- Replace Wild Empathy with Heavy Armor Proficiency
- Replace 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and 4th level spells with +1 dodge bonus to AC, and +2 to all saving throws (up to +4 AC / +8 to saves).
- Replace Favored Terrain with Armor Training.
- Replace Hunter's Bond with Warrior's Bond, allows you to pick up a companion and share your Weapon Training bonuses and Armor Training bonuses with your companion (applying best weapon training to the companion's natural weapons) OR provide your bonuses to allies as well instead of favored enemy and favored terrain.
- Replace Woodland Stride with constant supernatural longstrider. At 14th level, it includes freedom of movement. You share these benefits with your animal companion if you have one, or your allies while Warrior Bond is active.
- Evasion works with heavy armor.
- Replace Camouflage with the ability to re-attempt any saving throw to shrug off an effect with a duration 1 round later. So if you're petrified, 1 round later you might burst back to being normal Koolaid man style.
- Replace Hide in Plain Sight with energy resistance equal 5 + the character's level, beginning at 5th level against Acid, Cold, Electric, Fire, and Sonic.
- Modify Master Hunter to be 1/day per +1 on Weapon Training.
Ninja'd by Ael. XD
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Of course, most of it is still just numbers but at least now they suck significantly less than before. Aratrok and my friend Shinta both remarked that they didn't sound that much better but at least if you could pick up an NPC cohort or something as a companion option that'd be cool. EDIT: I'm inclined to agree. It's still pretty much worse than an actual ranger from 7th level+ but maybe if you can take a warrior squire or something that gets the benefits of your weapon/armor training abilities that'd be pretty cool.
At least warrior's bond actually lets you rally and lead folks, or bounce around with a mini-fighter or mount in heavy armor. The loss of spellcasting still isn't worth the +4/+8 but it's at least not the death sentence that is fighters and puts them closer to barbarians in terms of magic resistance.
I still feel like armor training for favored terrain is a bum deal though, so that should probably be tweaked. I can't think of how to make armor training anywhere near as amazing as favored terrain but maybe if we drop some DR onto it as well in addition to it we can begin to heal.
EDIT: It's frustrating that they still don't have much in the way of options since we tossed all their spells. Ehhh, this allergy to magic thing is really holding them back.
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I'd argue that all the bonuses you list combined would make the new 'Fighter' better than Ranger in most ways (they'd have weaker utility due to spells, but they'd be so much better at combat it almost wouldn't matter), unless you buff ranger to compensate. But sure, something like that would work if you want. But that's still re-building Fighter, you're just combining chassis to do it.
I personally prefer my Classes a little more mechanically distinct than that, so I'm working off a different base chassis...but that's more an aesthetic difference than anything.
I finished Writing my Slayer Archetype rough draft and I think that it does a pretty good job at creating a Heavily Armored character focused on combat.
Some Slayers are known to track and shadow their targets, waiting for the perfect moment to end a life and secure their coin. Iron-Clad Slayers have not the time for such things. Once they know their target’s location be it a bar, their home, or a banquet hall they clad themselves in armor and pursue their enemy unrelentingly.
My favorite ability that I gave them is a replacement for Swift Tracker. Do you think I need to put in a Set DC so DMS don't screw over the player by giving them a DC impossible check? Something like DC=10+CR
Information Network: The Iron-Clad Slayer may perform a Knowledge Local check to locate an individual even if the name or general location is unknown at a -5 penalty. In addition the Iron Clad Slayer may make a knowledge local check on any location or person no matter his proximity to the target. This ability replaces Swift tracker.
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...
So it's the weapon training that's the iconic fighter thing?
Or the bonus feats?Okay, here, check this out. Best fighter fix ever, right here.
Take Ranger
- Replace Favored Enemy with Weapon Training.
- Replace Track with +1/2 level to Acrobatics, Climb, and Swim.
- Replace Wild Empathy with Heavy Armor Proficiency
- Replace 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and 4th level spells with +1 dodge bonus to AC, and +2 to all saving throws (up to +4 AC / +8 to saves).
- Replace Favored Terrain with Armor Training.
- Replace Hunter's Bond with Warrior's Bond, allows you to pick up a companion and share your Weapon Training bonuses and Armor Training bonuses with your companion (applying best weapon training to the companion's natural weapons) OR provide your bonuses to allies as well instead of favored enemy and favored terrain.
- Replace Woodland Stride with constant supernatural longstrider. At 14th level, it includes freedom of movement. You share these benefits with your animal companion if you have one, or your allies while Warrior Bond is active.
- Evasion works with heavy armor.
- Replace Camouflage with the ability to re-attempt any saving throw to shrug off an effect with a duration 1 round later. So if you're petrified, 1 round later you might burst back to being normal Koolaid man style.
- Replace Hide in Plain Sight with energy resistance equal 5 + the character's level, beginning at 5th level against Acid, Cold, Electric, Fire, and Sonic.
- Modify Master Hunter to be 1/day per +1 on Weapon Training.Now there is a great fix* to the fighter...
though the Bond and Stride swaps probably need a little more work...
Now, if we could convince Paizo into this...
<*it keeps the basics of the fighter and ramps up the overall power and versatility, at a cost>
The problem with the fix is that you lose the bonus Combat feats, which is a big reason most of the people I have talked to, take the fighter.
He's still getting the ranger bonus combat feats. Which means he's skipping a whole lot of pre-reqs and empty feats that aren't needed.
For the movement, give him +5 Fast Movement at the same levels he can move normally in heavier armor, and call it done. The barb gets it quicker, the fighter gets it better. And they don't stack.
For weapon training, sub in 'weapon STYLE training', so you are limited to fighting in your style, but not to any particular weapon. I personally use 'primary weapons', so you get to pick all the weapons your primary WT applies to.
With Ashiel's fix, you don't really need to spend feats on pumping your defenses with Iron Will, your movement, or your other saves. +4 Ac and +8 to all saves is actually pretty close to base superstition, or a 26 Charisma paladin. So, you are saving on your general feats. And your saves are actually high enough with the Ranger chassis that Evasion is still useful.
Me, I'd give him an extra 4 bonus feats at the levels he's giving up spellcasting to help spread the load out more. And give him martial flexibility dependent on his intelligence bonus, to sub for the bonus spells a ranger gets, a reason to encourage a smart instead of a stupid fighter. Have it scale with Weapon Training.
And kindly note that while it may seem to outperform the ranger, the ranger still gets spellcasting, which in the end can sub for a LOT of these 'new defenses'. And being able to customize uptime and downtime loadouts is, as always, very strong.
Lastly, the fighter still can't heal himself, use a CLW wand, or make magic items...all extremely powerful things for a melee.
==Aelryinth
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Yes, as Ael points out, a lot of the stuff they get are just cheap replacements for things that Rangers already do, they're just getting them in a non-spell form. This is why I said that from 7th+ level they're essentially just inferior to Rangers overall, because at those levels Rangers have the means of turning many of their spells into always on (or always on when relevant) effects, can craft their own magic items, etc.
Against high-profile targets Rangers still have stuff like instant enemy (which is +5/+5 better than equal-level Weapon Training on this "Fighter") and can recall their spells using pearls of power which they can craft themselves using their class features (spellcasting + spellcraft class skill).
For example, the duration of delay poison is 1 hour / level, and resist energy is a 10 min/level buff; both 1st level spells on the Ranger's spell list. It costs a Ranger all of 500 gp to get a pearl of power I once they can craft their own magic goodies at 7th level (or 5th level if traits are involved). Lonstrider is 1 hour / level. They have access to wands, scrolls, and the like.
I just nailed some of the more critical effects that Rangers get (in addition to other great stuff) onto the progression of the "Fighter", replacing some of their class features (remember Rangers replace no class features, they can happily romp around in super-invisibility of high Stealth checks while sporting resist 30 against most every element, while being immune to CC effects, and immune to poison, and nuking stuff with Ranger-smite).
At the moment I'm thinking that if I got it near equivalent to what Rangers can do matter o' factly, then it's leaps and bounds beyond the Fighter.
He still has the issue of being limited to one speed, but at least that speed isn't horrible now and he's got some skill points and a little help against magic which tears fighters apart. I'm still not sure that I'd play this "fighter" but I wouldn't mind trying it.
I just really think you guys are lowballing the power that is spellcasting, even 4th level spellcasting.
To be fair, the 3rd and 4th level slots don't kick in until after a lot of campaigns are over, but the versatility and utility of 1-2nd level slots is basically more then enough for most rangers to use. 6 different level 1-2 spells (requires 14 wis) with 2 Pearls of Power for each level to recast is a remarkable degree of versatility and utility, on the miscellaneous, defensive and offensive levels.
==Aelryinth
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In fact, let's just look at some of the things Rangers can simply choose to do each day. A lot of these might sound familiar in some way.
1st Level
Resist Energy: Pick an energy type. You have resist 10/20/30 for 10 min/level.
Delay Poison: You are immune to poison for 1 hour / level (cast in advance, never be poisoned again).
Pass Without Trace: 1 creature/level leaves no discernible trail for 1 hour/level.
Longstrider: +10 ft. speed for 1 hour/level.
Feather Step: Ignore all difficult terrain and 5 ft. step through difficult terrain for 10 min / level.
Aspect of the Falcon: +3 Perception, +1 hit with ranged weapons, sets crit for bows to 19-20/x3 for 10 rounds / level.
Abundant Ammunition: Infinite exotic ammunition for 10 rounds/level.
2nd Level
Effortless Armor: Steal the Fighter's class feature for 10 rounds / level.
Perceive Cues: +5 Perception / Sense Motive for 10 min/level.
Versatile Weapon: Enable weapon to bypass bludgeoning, cold iron, piercing, silver, or slashing DR for 10 rounds/level.
Wind Wall: Screw archers.
Protection from Energy: Absorb 12 * CL energy damage for 10 min/level.
3rd Level
Fickle Winds: Screw archers harder.
Darkvision: What's on the label for 1 hour/level.
Remove Disease: Because you can.
Instant Enemy: AKA Ranger Smite.
Strong Jaw: Sick 'em Fido.
Burst of Speed: Get +20 ft. movement, move without provoking, move through spaces of enemies larger than you. Swift action, yay!
Communal Delay Poison: Because screw wyverns.
Named Bullet: One shot, for 10 min/level, is an auto-crit and deals +1/CL damage.
4th Level
Freedom of Movement: For 10 min/level, you can't stop the feeling.
Nondetection: And for 1 hour/level, you can find it either.
Greater Darkvision: 120ft. darkvision for 1 hour/level.
Greater Named Bullet: As named bullet but +2/CL damage.
Animal Growth: I shall name him Clifford.
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To be fair, the 3rd and 4th level slots don't kick in until after a lot of campaigns are over, but the versatility and utility of 1-2nd level slots is basically more then enough for most rangers to use. 6 different level 1-2 spells (requires 14 wis) with 2 Pearls of Power for each level to recast is a remarkable degree of versatility and utility, on the miscellaneous, defensive and offensive levels.
==Aelryinth
Not to mention it means that unless some non-Pathfinder shenanigans are going on, you can also use scrolls and wands which can be purchased in most settlements. You can also produce your own elixirs of +10 to a skill you like on the cheap. You can further enhance your own gear to ensure that you've got that sexy mithral celestial full plate you can't buy in stores.
The sheer versatility and options both in AND out of combat that the Ranger's spell list adds to the class is far greater than I think most people realize.
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Oh, and another funny thing is that rangers can cast spells on their animal companions even if the spell doesn't normally work on their creature type, or is a personal spell. This opens up a lot of funny shenanigans IF you bring UMD into the mix. Now I'm not saying that UMD is a point in the Ranger's favor exactly, but given the number of times that UMD is brought up by pro-Fighters as a thing Fighters should invest in, I'd like to note that the Ranger actually DOES have a fairly unique trick when it comes to UMD.
And that's because he can use things like scrolls and wands to use spells like beast shape, divine power, fire shield, shrink object (this is ****in' hilarious btw), continual flame (also funny, less practical), enlarge person, disguise self, etc.
EDIT: Not that this pertains to "Fighter-Ranger" vs "Ranger" since I gave "Fighter-Ranger" a companion as well but I'm just sayin' it's cool.
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Something that still bugs me though...
But sure, something like that would work if you want. But that's still re-building Fighter, you're just combining chassis to do it.
I personally prefer my Classes a little more mechanically distinct than that, so I'm working off a different base chassis...but that's more an aesthetic difference than anything.
Italics mine.
Thing brings me back to my earlier point. The only thing that seems to make a fighter is "I get bonus feats", "I'm armor guy", and "weapon training", and according to people professing the holy grail called Lore Warden, only two of those actually are required.
Said character gets to master a combat style and gets lots of bonus feats for free (they get 5 combat style feats + endurance) and they don't need to meet prerequisites. They're given the option between a superior minion/mount/whatever and the ability to rally and get their buddies to fight better. They're more tanky with generic bonuses in such a way that no matter what sort of armor they go with they're still naturally a bit better than the average guy. They've essentially got no magic that's any more magical than that of Spell Sunder (in this case, the ability to run faster than usual and tell magic to "STFU, you can't stop me", or barrel through a wall of fire with only soot stains on the other side). They don't have any mechanic that makes them have to have any variance between fighting goblin janitors or Satan himself.
But even to Deadmanwalking, it's not...fighter enough. It's too much Ranger. Which returns me to my point before. Fighter is in this void where everyone kind of feels like it should exist in some incarnation similar to what it is right now but you can't actually nail down something that's reasonable without it feeling too much like his other martial peers.
It's like this itch that won't go away.
- Bonus feats (check).
- Weapon training (check)
- Armor Training (check)
- Stuff that allows them to actually kinda fit the description of the class (check). Progress.
- Stuff that allows them to not be assuredly roflstomped by a normal adventure (check). Progress.
- Does it all with minimum magical ability and without an actual mechanic other than your static modifiers which exist only to just be the guy who has bigger numbers than that other guy and all the glorious roleplaying that somehow stimulates (check).
Not a fighter though. Further suggesting to me that the Fighter is a class that just needs to be written off. It's not good for newbs, it's not good for experts, nobody actually knows what it's supposed to be, and we're stuck trying to somehow relate to the abomination that is the original fighter in some way.
I still think that it needs some sort of central mechanic that actually does something other than just giving flat numbers. What that mechanic is doesn't really matter as long as it's simple and runs easy at the table. This incarnation still bugs me because it's not as versatile as generic fightguy / generic dude who fills generic fighty roles in more generic ways than barbarian / ranger / other classes, and it's still locked into being more or less the same all the time without a centralized theme, which means we'd end up back to the drawing board with lots of crappy archetypes in no time.
Ugghhh...
Hmmmmm. Mundane fighter man class:
Full bab, all profs, all skills are in class. All good saves. 2+int skills.
Dodge ac +1 every 4 levels, to hit and damage +1 every 5 levels, move speed increase by 5 every level, martial flexibility at level 1 one additional use every level improve activation speed at 9 and 17 increase number of feats at 5 and 13 uncapped at 20.
At level 3 and every 4 after have the mundane man pick one physical skill to have his bab equal skill ranks and reassign skill points spent and give that skill a rogue skill unlock.
Level one: give stamina pool and Brawlers cunning.
Level 2: Action man: once per minute you can perform an extra move action. This can be a standard action at 6. At 10 you can perform an extra move action once per round and twice per minute. At 14, it can be standard actions. At 18 you may instead perform one full round action.