Also, unless you are using the weapon groups in Humans of Golarion, temple sword is not a member of the monk fighter weapon group, and is not a legal weapon for Ascetic Style.
You are right! I guess we are stuck with Sansetsukuon (higher raw damage) or a Double Chicken Saber (deals 1d6, but we can take Ascetic Strike to improve that to 1d10 at level 9 and otherwise has temple sword stats).
Again, I don't think any regular Monk build can be better than the Li Mu Bai build I posted in terms of overall bruiser potential.Assuming by "regular monk" you are referring to chained monk, this is demonstrably false. A zen archer can deal significantly more damage than your unchained monk without having to worry about mobility in the slightest. They will also have just as high AC and significantly better HP, saves, and initiative.
Do you dispute this? If so, I would be happy to post a build.
That's not a bruiser. That's a ranged build. And it is further from accomplishing the core fantasy the OP was talking about. Do you think people would have been happy if rather than the UnMonk, we received the Zen Archer as a base class a replacement?
I, for one, would have hated that. My point is that the Unchained Monk is better at fulfilling the strong-willed, evasive, mystical and powerful martial artist trope than any core Monk. Notice how the OP wanted to build Li Mu Bai - and most players want to build Bruce Lee or Kenshiro - rather than a very powerful ranged character that is away from the core fantasy of the class.
But regarding Zen Archers:
- I don't think Zen Archers have better HP or initiative though - they have absolutely no reason to have DEX, and they won't invest higher than 14 CON baseline. They do have a ton of free feats though, so perhaps later on they might edge out there.
- Zen Archers are amazing at shooting at range for sure. But I'd hesitate before saying they have better saves. WILL will be higher for sure, ridiculous levels of WILL. FORT will be about the same. REF will be about the same, but do note that the UnMonk has access to Imp Evasion whereas the Zen Archer doesn't. My Zen Archer died because of this so I'll never forget it XD
Ring of Evasion is a nice get but it's way too expensive for the first 11 levels.
Just for fun, we could pick a level to compare DPR and stuff. I'm thinking that the Zen Archer should be ahead at all times EXCEPT from levels 1-2 and at higher levels, when mobility is a non-issue for the UnMonk (Dimensional Assault + Abundant Step being used) and you can use two Style Strikes simultaneously.
** spoiler omitted **
I put this together in sort of...
Just to note, you are dumping INT which my build doesn't do.
Also, you are doing some pearl of power cheese which I didn't do but could - I'm trying to build something that doesn't care whether you have a Wizard in your party on not.
Your damage is not noticeably better than mine however, particularly against a 21 AC enemy.
That being said, I won't deny Zen Archer has a ton of major advantages. But I don't think it's a better build.
Your AC is only higher because you are spending 1k for +4 AC (whereas my build spends 4k for +2 AC on bracers). So that's a moot point.
Your saves are higher for sure, can't deny that.
I hadn't realized Weapon Training trait could be used for longbows, that's pretty damn useful.
Anyway, I don't think your build is anywhere near "better". It's just different than mine.
I cant imagine playing an unmonk that didnt max dex and wis. making your ki pool, stunning fist dc, will save and ac all real good. Damage is low until you get an agile something, dex to damage feats, or something like it.
1. You can't use dex to damage feats with flurry.
2. Again, you saw my build on the first page. Put a build with better Stunning Fist DC and AC to show me. I could only imagine a build with +2 AC or perhaps +3 but losing a lot of damage.
3. Imho, 14STR/18DEX mix Weapon Finesse Jabbing Style is better than full DEX.
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It's a better Monk.
No.. Not at all.
It is a better martial artist.
It is a better wire-fu practitioner from hong kong action hour.
It is a simpler chassis with fewer trap options.
It is better out the gate at dealing teh damages.
If these things were what you expected out of the monk class to begin with then I suppose the class was an upgrade.
The UnMonk in many people's eyes lost a lot of the iconic monk things trading away it's 'monkness' for combat viability. This is not everyone's definition of better. In fact it is many people's definition of worse.
Also for the record posting things in bigger fonts and bolded letters doesn't make you more right it just makes you look like a belligerent jerk.
I am trying to start a conversation and all I'm getting from you is "bro no" rather than any arguments.
OP mentioned low Will saves. I proved he was wrong because better attribute distribution and more feat leisure on the UnMonk grants you the ability to make up for it.
OP mentioned losing ki powers. I put up a build which had all the thing he wanted save for poison immunity (which, as a high fort class, is not particularly important). The only CRB Monk builds people made GIVE UP high jump, slow fall, etc. so they don't even get to keep the features he wanted. The UnMonk is better at that too.
Sure, Diamond Soul is activated, but that's just better design. Now you are not spell resisting your own healer's cure wounds out of combat.
So unless you want to give me some arguments with your posts, I really have got nothing to add. If you want to keep commenting about my font editing choices like that's what makes me wrong, I, uh, can't help you, buddy.
The only "monkness" it lost was the good will save.
The only "monkness" it lost was the good will save.
Which, again, is a myth. When a class wants 14 CON because it has 1d8 hit dice and infinite accuracy because it's hitting a level-2 with no boosts (or at 3/4 * level if not full-attacking), it doesn't have the ability to focus on WIS like the UnMonk does.
Sure, Zen Archer can do it. Sensei can do it. But they are their own thing that loses out on many things that make a monk a monk.
Zen Archer doesn't even have improved evasion, stunning fist, still mind, purity of body, and people say it has more MONKNESS for some reason that's beyond me that no one has cared to explain.
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Now you are not spell resisting your own healer's cure wounds out of combat.
You can always lower your spell resistance by spending a standard action (so long as you're conscious, and can take standard actions), so this isn't where the problem lies. It's combat buffs and emergency breath of life or heals that really get screwed over.
Unchained Monk did take a couple hits with the nerf bat, though some of them were a bit oddly placed. I am a bit baffled about why someone though Diamond Body was too powerful and needed the substantial nerfing it got in Unchained.
Diamond Soul is a bit of an odd case: having it as an activated ability is definitely more convenient for friendly spellcasting, but needing to activate it on your turn means it can leave you vulnerable. not to mention that it eats up two ki points, and generally only lasts long enough for one encounter.
(Granted, my experience with SR is a bit atypical, since my main gaming group house-ruled that you could just chose to fail SR rather than requiring a standard action to lower it).
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Poison immunity was removed but...
let's be honest.
Poison kills monks in popular culture, even the theoretically higher leveled ones.
I could make a list right now, but I'll just say that the OP wants to build Li Mu Bai, and Li Mu Bai uhhhhh does not get really well with poisoned darts.
Dude, I'm restraining from making a long ass list here of all the characters in wuxia that died from poisoning right off top of my head XD
The character Pai Mei is based on, Bak Mei, was said to be killed with poison too.
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I cant imagine playing an unmonk that didnt max dex and wis. making your ki pool, stunning fist dc, will save and ac all real good. Damage is low until you get an agile something, dex to damage feats, or something like it.1. You can't use dex to damage feats with flurry.
2. Again, you saw my build on the first page. Put a build with better Stunning Fist DC and AC to show me. I could only imagine a build with +2 AC or perhaps +3 but losing a lot of damage.
3. Imho, 14STR/18DEX mix Weapon Finesse Jabbing Style is better than full DEX.
1) yes you can. Mythic weapon finesse (paizo) and deadly agility (dreamscarred press), i included other options if these are not available.
2) easy, mantis style, better stat boosts, the damage looks a little lower due to piranha strike give penalty to hit, when not used it looks to be 1 less to hit and 3 less damage per hit. there might be a better feat i have not considered.
3) jabbing style seems nice, i could probably tank int to meet the prereq and take the first two in the chain. But im not sold on it yet.
Build is copy paste of yours except
the stats would be like 10,18,13,10,18,7 at lvl 1.
Different gear :
Amulet of might fists (+0, agile)
Pearl of power 1
Dex +4 belt
Wis +4 belt
jingasa
Next purchase: pearl of power 4 ( greater magic weapon)
2 different feats:
Feats: being lazy and just replacing ascetic form and style (changing weapon focus to unarmed strike)
Piranha strike
mantis style?
I don't really consider that builds that rely on mythic (unavailable in 99% of the games), 3PP feats (particularly one that is constantly banned), or pearls of power (which make you reliant on your team) are particularly relevant to this conversation.
Agile Amulet of Mighty Fists is a possibility, but I'd rather not make my first 5-6 levels gimped, and, in the end, the amount of money you spend on that amulet the STR build spends on defense to erode any AC advantage.
Again, I don't think any regular Monk build can be better than the Li Mu Bai build I posted in terms of overall bruiser potential.Assuming by "regular monk" you are referring to chained monk, this is demonstrably false. A zen archer can deal significantly more damage than your unchained monk without having to worry about mobility in the slightest. They will also have just as high AC and significantly better HP, saves, and initiative.
Do you dispute this? If so, I would be happy to post a build.
That's not a bruiser. That's a ranged build. And it is further from accomplishing the core fantasy the OP was talking about. Do you think people would have been happy if rather than the UnMonk, we received the Zen Archer as a base class a replacement?
I, for one, would have hated that. My point is that the Unchained Monk is better at fulfilling the strong-willed, evasive, mystical and powerful martial artist trope than any core Monk. Notice how the OP wanted to build Li Mu Bai - and most players want to build Bruce Lee or Kenshiro - rather than a very powerful ranged character that is away from the core fantasy of the class.
But regarding Zen Archers:
- I don't think Zen Archers have better HP or initiative though - they have absolutely no reason to have DEX, and they won't invest higher than 14 CON baseline. They do have a ton of free feats though, so perhaps later on they might edge out there.
- Zen Archers are amazing at shooting at range for sure. But I'd hesitate before saying they have better saves. WILL will be higher for sure, ridiculous levels of WILL. FORT will be about the same. REF will be about the same, but do note that the UnMonk has access to Imp Evasion whereas the Zen Archer doesn't. My Zen Archer died because of this so I'll never forget it XD
Ring of Evasion is a nice get but it's way too expensive for the first 11 levels.Just for fun, we could pick a level to compare DPR and stuff. I'm thinking that the Zen...
Whoa, Core is better willed than a Unchained monk. It has a higher Will save bar none.
It is evasive. With Qui-gong is just as a mystical.
Power is harder to quantify though.
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A 3rd party feat that is also constantly used (so we are wasting time on this), mythic exists no reason to ignore it, play style would be different for a few levels, but imwouldnt say gimped.
solo play happens how often?much less than mythic is played i bet. Parties without a full caster could happen, but potions of mage armor are very cheap, the character probably has not used all the potions he could have bought instead by level 8. The amulet is 1 purchase, not neeeding to be upgraded. Your build did not spend it on defense, so if you do that the finesse build just looks better.
Whoa, Core is better willed than a Unchained monk. It has a higher Will save bar none.
It is evasive. With Qui-gong is just as a mystical.
Power is harder to quantify though.
Again, this is all untrue because it doesn't take into account different attribute reliances and new features. I'm still waiting for someone to post a CRB monk build that can match the UnMonk build I posted on the first page that looks better at being a Monk with strong will, evasiveness, mystical powers, mobility, good damage and good resiliency.
And to simplify the conversation I'm having with @GenericDrift - I will use only things that are Paizo official for non mythic games in my builds that I propose for arguing about whether the Unchained Monk is better than the CRB Monk. The logic here is that we are comparing two Paizo products meant for general use.
If you think this too restrictive, I guess we are using different criteria.
I must be missing something that was already posted -- how does Unchained Monk get a better Will Save than Classic Monk other than by being able to put more ability score points into Wisdom, which takes a lot of ability score investment? Because if that's the only thing, you need a LOT more Wisdom score investment, to the point that you get diminishing returns in the point buy and then have to spend all of your ability score increases on Wisdom. Assuming (for simplicity) that both have even or both have odd Wisdom scores, the amount of additional Wisdom score you need just to break even is:
Level 1: 4 more points
Level 2: 6 more points
Level 3: 4 more points (and Classic Monk gets Still Mind 1 level earlier, so effectively 8 more points for Enchantment spells and effects, but only at this level)
Levels 4 - 7: 6 more points
Level 8: 8 more points
Level 9: 6 more points
Levels 10 - 13: 8 more points
Level 14: 10 more points
Level 15: 8 more points
Levels 16 - 19: 10 more points (but at level 19 Flawless Mind finally kicks in for the Unchained Monk, although I don't think that the statistics of the Will Save reroll are enough to eat up this huge advantage for the Classic Monk in most cases)
Level 20: 12 more points (for completeness, although Flawless Mind is still pushing the balance in favor of the Unchained Monk)
I have no clue what you mean by 4 more points at 1st level. You mean 2, right?
1. Constitution.
The Core Monk CANNOT run with 12 CON. They need 14 CON or 12 + Toughness (which is a feat they don't get to spend on other stuff). UnMonk, with 1d10 hit dice, can work perfectly with 12 CON.
2. Archetypes and accuracy.
The Core Monk is terrible in terms of accuracy and overall effectiveness. It's most likely they either take Sohei (in which case, you don't use WIS-to-AC and would be putting points in WIS), or putting extra points in your accuracy ability score, which removes available points for WIS.
3. Free trait.
The Core Monk needs Quain Martial Artist or Monk Weapon Skill to try to boost output in spite of terrible accuracy. The UnMonk can use Indomitable Faith.
The other trait in both cases is Honored Fist of the Society.
4. Free feats.
First level is Toughness or Weapon Finesse for CRB Monk (to match accuracy), 3rd level Pummeling Style, 5th level Weapon Focus, 7th level is Extra Ki (remember how they are behind on WIS at character creation?), 9th level is Pummeling Charge
For the UnMonk, first level is Weapon Focus, 3rd level is Ascetic Style, Jabbing Style or Dragon Style, 5th level is Dragon's Ferocity, Ascetic Form or Iron Will, 7th level is Jabbing Dancer or Iron Will, 9th level is Improved Critical.
The above is just a demonstration of what would be needed for the CRB Monk to match in power the Unchained Monk in terms of HP, Ki points, accuracy, damage and mobility.
You can clearly see how the resources the UnMonk has (in terms of traits, feats and attributes at character creation) puts them ahead.
I've attached two builds for you to compare, at level 9 with no magic items, as Dual Talent Humans for +2 STR/WIS both:
CRB Monk 9
+13/+13/+8/+8 Flurry for 1d10+6 + Pummeling Style/Charge, 20/2x critical
AC 18 + barkskin
FORT +7 REF +8 WILL +9
Ki Pool 12 points
HP 9d8+18 (average 62)
NOTE: THIS BUILD DUMPS INT TO 9
UnMonk 9
+14/+14/+9 Flurry for 1d10+4 + Jabbing Style (which is pretty good extra damage) and Flying Kick for mobility, plus probably Elemental Fury for extra +1d6 damage, 19-20/2x critical
AC 19 + barkskin
FORT +7 REF +8 WILL +9
Ki Pool 11 points
HP 9d10+9 (average 63)
So in the end, both builds have the same damn Will save at level 9, the CRB Monk has a tiny less AC and accuracy, the UnMonk has a tiny more AC and accuracy. CRB Monk has a 1 point ki advantage going for it.
At mid-high range, say, level 11-18, the CRB Monk is scrambling to get more accuracy. The UnMonk can spend gold on magic items to boost WIS and resistance more.
Because the CRB Monk is 1 AC behind too and falling behind on damage something fierce when the UnMonk gets Jabbing Master and another flurry attack at full BAB - not too mention two style strikes per turn -, any Will advantage it may have at levels 11-18 will be eradicated by more gold efficiency on the UnMonk.
At level 19, Flawless Mind kicks in and the CRB Monk is dead in the water.
Oh, and the CRB Monk has to have 9 INT so that's 1 less skill point per level.
SOURCE: I actually played the damn class.
EDIT: Hell, just to put that damned Finesse CRB Monk thing to rest I'll post a CRB Finesse Monk with an agile amulet of mighty fists, even if the above builds have NO magic items.
CRB Finesse Monk 9
+13/+13/+8/+8 Flurry for 1d10+6 + Pummeling Style/Charge, 20/2x critical
AC 22 + barkskin
FORT +7 REF +11 WILL +10
Ki Pool 10 points
HP 9d8+18 (average 62)
NOTE: THIS BUILD DUMPS INT TO 9 AND HAS SPENT 4,000GP ON AN AGILE AMULET OF MIGHTY FISTS
Whoop de doo, +1 Will, +3 AC and Reflex for a build that spends 4,000gp on a magic item and has no g#%$*@n damage from levels 1-5 or 6 or whenever it actually gets this specific magic item it needs to actually make a dent on an enemy.
For the same money, the UnMonk can get a Cloak of Resistance +1, Bracers of Armor +1, and a Ring of Protection +1, removing the Will advantage, and reducing the AC advantage to 1.
Do note that the Finesse Monk is STILL 1 point behind on skill ranks (I haven't heard anyone say that not being able to max Acrobatics, Perception, Sense Motive while having points in Climb and Swim is MONKNESS, but I don think it is)...
And that if this Monk wants +1 enhancement on his fists, he needs to spend an extra 12,000gp because he's already got an effective +1 enhancement on his agile amulet.
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A 3rd party feat that is also constantly used (so we are wasting time on this)
Please don't bring up Deadly Agility in a balance thread. It is the feat that makes STR builds pointless. Any game with it allowed and players who optimize AT ALL - every martial will take it unless they're refusing out of protest at its inclusion.
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A very, very long thread, wow.
Ok, i am trying to read all of the posts, but if i do i'm going to be mass-ninja'ed.
First, i'm going to do what many suggested, to not to see the UMonk as a replacement of the CMonk. It is a different class that can do almost the same. It is not as mystical as the fantasy monk is, but it is very good for campaigns. It is more on the fighter side than the support side.
Second, i like the class enough to use it to make characters like Sato Asami, Yu Shu Lien, Jen, etc. I think it will be suitable for Li Mu Bai if the poor save was fortitude instead of will... And PF should allow the jian to be a monk weapon (but that's another issue).
Third, i still think it is bad to make the will save a poor save instead of making fortitude the poor save. Old, physically weak monks that cannot be mind affected exist. Monks that could be killed using poison or illnesses, too. So, i still think it is a bad move. I still think no one proved me the will poor save is ok with that UMonk. I can still make a homebrew archetype of the UMonk that just swap both saves. Any way, i agree with the UMonk having one bad save, cause that class is more a combat/wuxia warrion-monk than a monk that was looking for self-perfection and the Nirvana.
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My issue with the will save and lost poison immunity is... why? It's not like leaving them alone would make the UnMonk overpowered compared to the paladin or barbarian, even with the very necessary boosts to the Core Monk's offensive ability.
The monk, conceptually, is supposed to be very mentally and physically balanced, so assuming they should take Iron Will in order to make up for a poor base will save doesn't sit right with me.
Since poison immunity would be a ki power, making it available to monks that aim to have that kind of control over their body doesn't mean that you can't still have monks that are vulnerable to poison.
My issue with the will save and lost poison immunity is... why? It's not like leaving them alone would make the UnMonk overpowered compared to the paladin or barbarian, even with the very necessary boosts to the Core Monk's offensive ability.
The monk, conceptually, is supposed to be very mentally and physically balanced, so assuming they should take Iron Will in order to make up for a poor base will save doesn't sit right with me.
Since poison immunity would be a ki power, making it available to monks that aim to have that kind of control over their body doesn't mean that you can't still have monks that are vulnerable to poison.
Yeah, for me it's less that the changes ruin the class or make it unplayable, and more that I'm morbidly fascinated by the question of why someone felt the changes were a good idea in the first place. The Ki Power system already solved the issue of not all monks in fiction being immune to poison, after all. What prompted a professional game designer to say "You know what the real problem with Monks is? That they can gain the ability to be immune to poison!"
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I think saying that UnMonk has low Will saves is like saying Wizards have few skill ranks per level. C'mon, people, I showed you guys the builds and compared to CRB Monk, you can see that it's a common mistake to believe that but in actual gameplay has no effect :P
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A 3rd party feat that is also constantly used (so we are wasting time on this)Please don't bring up Deadly Agility in a balance thread. It is the feat that makes STR builds pointless. Any game with it allowed and players who optimize AT ALL - every martial will take it unless they're refusing out of protest at its inclusion.
The other dex to damage feats didnt make str builds obsolete. Anyway it is was just an option instead of a cheap agile AoMF which is probably the better choice.
Str builds are great, if they fall behind it is because hvy armor has been the weakest choice if the player plans any investment for defense. I think dex builds are better than str in most things, but that was even before these builds existed (archery).
Totally agree with the above secret wizard post.
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I think saying that UnMonk has low Will saves is like saying Wizards have few skill ranks per level. C'mon, people, I showed you guys the builds and compared to CRB Monk, you can see that it's a common mistake to believe that but in actual gameplay has no effect :P
No effect so long as you take a feat and a trait to boost your save back up. A poor base save progression is a poor base save progression, even if you can build to compensate for it.
Besides, I'm not comparing to the CRB monk, which I do agree needed work. I'm comparing to the other classes the monk is adventuring with. The UnMonk is at a distinct disadvantage in the will save department compared to clerics, druids, paladins, and other characters who have a good base save plus a good stat. These spiritually minded characters are the ones I'd expect the monk to compete with in the willpower department, but the UnMonk needs to spend extra feats and or/traits to keep up.
In fact, many characters that are not supposed to have a lot of mental strength can get a Will save similar to your UnMonk with a little effort.
At level 8 an arcane sorcerer could easily have 12 Wis, Iron Will as a bonus bloodline feat (plus the trait and cloak) and match your UnMonk: +6 base +1 Wis +2 feat +1 trait +2 resistance = +12.
A superstitious barbarian with the human FCB and Wis 8 can match your UnMonk on non-enchantment effects: +2 base -1 Wis +2 feat +1 trait +2 resistance +6 superstition = +12 (and with Wis 12 they hit the monk's bonus against enchantment).
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The other dex to damage feats didnt make str builds obsolete.A 3rd party feat that is also constantly used (so we are wasting time on this)Please don't bring up Deadly Agility in a balance thread. It is the feat that makes STR builds pointless. Any game with it allowed and players who optimize AT ALL - every martial will take it unless they're refusing out of protest at its inclusion.
That's because they specifically went out of their way to make TWF, THF, flurry, and nat weapons not work with them. Only Fencing Grace allows the other hand to be used for a shield - and that would probably be changed if it wasn't from a player companion. The only Paizo way to get it for THF/TWF is a 3 level dip in Urogue - and that's generally too big of a price-tag.
For Magus - the vast majority of them are dex-to-damage builds because they can only fight with a single hand anyway - so for them pretty much the only cost IS a feat.
That's because they specifically went out of their way to make TWF, THF, flurry, and nat weapons not work with them. Only Fencing Grace allows the other hand to be used for a shield - and that would probably be changed if it wasn't from a player companion. The only Paizo way to get it for THF/TWF is a 3 level dip in Urogue - and that's generally too big of a price-tag.
For Magus - the vast majority of them are dex-to-damage builds because they can only fight with a single hand anyway - so for them pretty much the only cost IS a feat. (And even for them it's not as good as Deadly Agility - since they don't get 1.5x stat damage even if they two-hand with Spell Combat.)
Considering Str builds still have very distinct advantages (most notably considerably higher DPR and 2 extra feats), I don't think that's true. However, every dex-to-damage option should note that the damage is not increased for wielding an weapon two-handed.
Str is only at disadvantage when dueling... Which makes sense IMO, and even then, it's not that wide of a gap.
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Considering Str builds still have very distinct advantages (most notably considerably higher DPR and 2 extra feats), I don't think that's true. However, every dex-to-damage option should note that the damage is not increased for wielding an weapon two-handed.Str is only at disadvantage when dueling... Which makes sense IMO, and even then, it's not that wide of a gap.
Yeah - I actually was editing my post right as you quoted it about the 1.5x for Deadly Agility - oops.
While I'm not going to go deep into it here - while you are ONE feat behind (Deadly Agility includes DEX Double Slice) - you aren't actually behind in DPR since you can dump STR while a STR build can't dump DEX - making you more SAD. (Plus getting much higher reflex save/initiative/skills/AC/mobility etc.)
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The other dex to damage feats didnt make str builds obsolete.A 3rd party feat that is also constantly used (so we are wasting time on this)Please don't bring up Deadly Agility in a balance thread. It is the feat that makes STR builds pointless. Any game with it allowed and players who optimize AT ALL - every martial will take it unless they're refusing out of protest at its inclusion.That's because they specifically went out of their way to make TWF, THF, flurry, and nat weapons not work with them. Only Fencing Grace allows the other hand to be used for a shield - and that would probably be changed if it wasn't from a player companion. The only Paizo way to get it for THF/TWF is a 3 level dip in Urogue - and that's generally too big of a price-tag.
For Magus - the vast majority of them are dex-to-damage builds because they can only fight with a single hand anyway - so for them pretty much the only cost IS a feat. (And even for them it's not as good as Deadly Agility - since they don't get 1.5x stat damage even if they two-hand with Spell Combat.)
Deadly agility is never x1.5. And is only for finessable weapons.
An agile AoMF is super cheap. For any natural weapon build it is easy to fit in.Magus has a great archetype for ignoring armor, with super obvious synergy.
Base magus has a problem with when it gains the ability to use armor, make an archetype that can actually benefit from armor in a timely fashion and dex builds will drop in frequency.
Melee dex builds still have to get into melee unlike archery, which has way more advantages.
How is any of this on topic for unmonk vs core monk?
Yeah - I actually was editing my post right as you quoted it about the 1.5x for Deadly Agility - oops.
While I'm not going to go deep into it here - while you are ONE feat behind (Deadly Agility includes DEX Double Slice) - you aren't actually behind in DPR since you can dump STR while a STR build can't dump DEX - making you more SAD. (Plus getting much higher reflex save/initiative/skills/AC/mobility etc.)
Yeah... Dex-builds have a certain advantage with TWF... Which I don't really mind, since much like dueling, it's a style usually associated with agility-based character archetypes...
On a different note, oddly enough, with Cornugon Smash + Hurtful, I think Str-based builds are actually more mobile than Dex builds, since they can still move and make 2 attacks at full bonus.
I do think there should be more Str-based feats, though... Like one that allows you to add Str to AC when wielding shields, sunder the ground to make enemies lose balance, throw shock waves at nearby targets, etc...
Not by coincidence, all of those options are available to my Revised Fighter, either as feats or as Combat Prowesses.
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That's more of an issue with the human fcb on superstitious which never should have been in the game in the first place. Racial FCBs were a mistake.
The sorcerer is still an issue.
So is the fact that a paladin can comfortably afford 12 Wis and 20 Cha by level 8 and have a +12 will save without a feat, trait, or even a cloak of resistance. If the paladin does spend the same resources as Secret Wizard's UnMonk, they get +17.
This on a class that Secret Wizard rightly recommends for "superior damage," and that's not all it has going for it.
I think saying that UnMonk has low Will saves is like saying Wizards have few skill ranks per level. C'mon, people, I showed you guys the builds and compared to CRB Monk, you can see that it's a common mistake to believe that but in actual gameplay has no effect :P
You are right in one thing: you can find a way to workaround the poor Will save of the UMonk... but that does NOT change the fact it is one of its weakest points. Even an investigator has a better will save than a UMonk! My idea is not "a poor Will save breaks the class and makes it unplayable" but it is "a poor will save is to the monk like a moderate bab progression is to the fighter; you can still play the class, but it does not feel like the right thing". The question is not "how can i workaround it?" but "why do they think it was right to remove one good save to the monk, and why precisely Will, one of the 'iconic' features of fantasy monks?".
I accepted the explanation of moving some constant passive features to ki powers... I can imagine Li Mu Bai was able to survive the initial effects of the poison but had not enough ki to remove the poison from his system; the same with Pai Mei and the hero of that Fearless movie. And it does make sense, cause to kill someone with poison in wuxia genre and other asian genres has a significance, the killer is a worthless coward who decided to resort to such despicable method. So i think the change is acceptable.
But the will poor save not. I remembered the Old Wise Men from Kungfu series being captured, tied and injected with a powerful truth serum. His body was under the effects of the serum (Fort fail), but he remained silent and didn't say a word, truth or false, until his foes decides to stop trying for him to say anything (Will save). This is a monk. So i still think, why will, why make it a poor save?
That's more of an issue with the human fcb on superstitious which never should have been in the game in the first place. Racial FCBs were a mistake.The sorcerer is still an issue.
So is the fact that a paladin can comfortably afford 12 Wis and 20 Cha by level 8 and have a +12 will save without a feat, trait, or even a cloak of resistance. If the paladin does spend the same resources as Secret Wizard's UnMonk, they get +17.
This on a class that Secret Wizard rightly recommends for "superior damage," and that's not all it has going for it.
Paladin cannot afford a 12 Wisdom score. They actually have to dump it to 7 unless they dump INT and screw themselves out of combat.
This is a monk. So i still think, why will, why make it a poor save?
For the same reason wizards are supposed to be knowledgeable and have 2 ranks only.
I have no clue what you mean by 4 more points at 1st level. You mean 2, right?
{. . .}
No, I mean 4, because Good Will Save vs Poor Will Save is a difference of 2 initially, and you need 4 more points of Wisdom to raise your Will Save by 2. Reassigning traits as you say can shave that down to an initial difference of 1 (2 points of Wisdom), but then that gap keeps growing (with 3 instances of temporary relief) all the way up through 18th level, by which time it has still gotten big enough to be really hard (and expensive) to compensate for. And both types of Monk can get Iron Will, so that doesn't help close the gap.
Paladin cannot afford a 12 Wisdom score. They actually have to dump it to 7 unless they dump INT and screw themselves out of combat.That's more of an issue with the human fcb on superstitious which never should have been in the game in the first place. Racial FCBs were a mistake.The sorcerer is still an issue.
So is the fact that a paladin can comfortably afford 12 Wis and 20 Cha by level 8 and have a +12 will save without a feat, trait, or even a cloak of resistance. If the paladin does spend the same resources as Secret Wizard's UnMonk, they get +17.
This on a class that Secret Wizard rightly recommends for "superior damage," and that's not all it has going for it.
Depends on the build, but personally I'd almost never dump Wisdom. Will saves and the skills Wisdom is tied to are just too important. Plus Paladins generally don't need too much Dex and Con, since they use heavy armor and have Lay on Hands to keep their HP up in combat.
If a Pally doesn't dump wisdom they cannot get 20 Charisma or good HP/defences or damage for that matter.
I have no clue what you mean by 4 more points at 1st level. You mean 2, right?
{. . .}No, I mean 4, because Good Will Save vs Poor Will Save is a difference of 2 initially, and you need 4 more points of Wisdom to raise your Will Save by 2. Reassigning traits as you say can shave that down to an initial difference of 1 (2 points of Wisdom), but then that gap keeps growing (with 3 instances of temporary relief) all the way up through 18th level, by which time it has still gotten big enough to be really hard (and expensive) to compensate for. And both types of Monk can get Iron Will, so that doesn't help close the gap.
Not true. Did you see the build comparison?
Regular monk CANNOT take iron will if they want to match in damage, hp and Ki pool.
Also, they are always -2 attack behind so that's stress on money advantage.
At level 19 the Will gap, which doesn't exist, disappears due to flawless mind.
Again, I answered with a build comparison.
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The sorcerer is still an issue.
So is the fact that a paladin can comfortably afford 12 Wis and 20 Cha by level 8 and have a +12 will save without a feat, trait, or even a cloak of resistance. If the paladin does spend the same resources as Secret Wizard's UnMonk, they get +17.
This on a class that Secret Wizard rightly recommends for "superior damage," and that's not all it has going for it.
Paladin cannot afford a 12 Wisdom score. They actually have to dump it to 7 unless they dump INT and screw themselves out of combat.
...
If a Pally doesn't dump wisdom they cannot get 20 Charisma or good HP/defences or damage for that matter.
Paladins are already screwed for skills, and dumping Int to 7 only costs you 1 skill point compared to Int 10. They can get 2 ranks per level with a FCB, which is enough to max Diplomacy to cover social situations and still pick up a few other skills as you go. They also don't need a high Dex score since they'll likely wear at least medium armour.
Paladin 1 (dual-talent human or angel-blooded aasimar):
Str 16+2+2+1=21 Dex 13 Con 12 Int 7 Wis 12 Cha 15+2+2+1=20
Paladin 2 (dual-talent or angel-blooded):
Str 21 Dex 10 Con 14 Int 7 Wis 12 Cha 20
Paladin 3 (Suli or Nagaji):
Str 20 Dex 10 Con 12 Int 12-2 Wis 12 Cha 20
The last one gets no Int penalty even after the racial mod, so you get 3 skill ranks with the FCB or you can use your FCB for an extra HP, and your knowledge skills don't take a hit.
For comparison, Your UnMonk:
Str 21, Dex 16, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 20, Cha 7
Assume Belt of Str +2 and Headband of Cha +2. Compared to your UnMonk, the cheaper belt and not buying Bracers of Armour gives them 10K, which is more than enough to buy +2 full plate. Throw on Ironskin (paladin spell) for AC 26-27 when two-handing, comparable to the UnMonk. Smite bumps this to 31-32. HP is at least as good, even before factoring in Lay on Hands. Str 20 or 21 is perfectly acceptable for offense at this level. With the cloak that the monk gets, Will save is +14 and the worst save, Reflex, is still at +9 or +10 compared to the UnMonk's +11. Fort save is much better.
Note that if you use Aasimar, Suli, or Nagaji, you get racial features other than stat bonuses.
Note that if you use Aasimar, Suli, or Nagaji, you get racial features other than stat bonuses.
Oread and oni-blood tiefling serve similar purposes here. Nagaji is a clear win for the paladin due to being always available in PFS and capitalizing on a planned Int dump (WOO 5 INT!), but I will always advocate tiefling over aasimar in this sort of setting - better alt racials.
The sorcerer is still an issue.
So is the fact that a paladin can comfortably afford 12 Wis and 20 Cha by level 8 and have a +12 will save without a feat, trait, or even a cloak of resistance. If the paladin does spend the same resources as Secret Wizard's UnMonk, they get +17.
This on a class that Secret Wizard rightly recommends for "superior damage," and that's not all it has going for it.
Paladin cannot afford a 12 Wisdom score. They actually have to dump it to 7 unless they dump INT and screw themselves out of combat.
...
If a Pally doesn't dump wisdom they cannot get 20 Charisma or good HP/defences or damage for that matter.
Paladins are already screwed for skills, and dumping Int to 7 only costs you 1 skill point compared to Int 10. They can get 2 ranks per level with a FCB, which is enough to max Diplomacy to cover social situations and still pick up a few other skills as you go. They also don't need a high Dex score since they'll likely wear at least medium armour.
Paladin 1 (dual-talent human or angel-blooded aasimar):
Str 16+2+2+1=21 Dex 13 Con 12 Int 7 Wis 12 Cha 15+2+2+1=20Paladin 2 (dual-talent or angel-blooded):
Str 21 Dex 10 Con 14 Int 7 Wis 12 Cha 20Paladin 3 (Suli or Nagaji):
Str 20 Dex 10 Con 12 Int 12-2 Wis 12 Cha 20The last one gets no Int penalty even after the racial mod, so you get 3 skill ranks with the FCB or you can use your FCB for an extra HP, and your knowledge skills don't take a hit.
For comparison, Your UnMonk:
Str 21, Dex 16, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 20, Cha 7Assume Belt of Str +2 and Headband of Cha +2. Compared to your UnMonk, the cheaper belt and not buying Bracers of Armour gives them 10K, which is more than enough to buy +2 full plate. Throw on Ironskin (paladin spell) for AC 26-27 when two-handing, comparable to the UnMonk. Smite bumps this to 31-32. HP is at...
Let's forget the fact that I think having 1 rank per level is worse for a PC than having low Will saves.
1. Your AC is off by 3 unless I'm missing something. I also would really hesitate to add Smite to your AC. You only apply it to one particular target. Unless you are fighting a single boss, it's a situational buff. Ironskin is a really great boost though, but again, it's taking away from your ability to use spells to match mobility, damage, etc.
2. Remember the Monk has 12 Will.. +2 Still Mind. It matches the Paladin and surpasses the Barb (who is still screwed due to the nature of Superstition in a lot of ways).
Male Human paladin 8
LG Medium humanoid (human)
Init +5, Senses Perception +9
Aura aura of courage, aura of good, aura of resolve,
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DEFENSE
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AC 24, touch 13, flat-footed 23 (+11 armor, +1 deflection, +1 Dex, )
hp 69 ((8d10)+16)
Fort +14, Ref +10, Will +15
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OFFENSE
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Speed 20 ft.
Melee greatsword +2 +15/+10 (2d6+9/19-20)
Special Attacks Channel Positive Energy (4d6, DC 19), Smite Evil,
Class Spell-Like Abilities detect evil (at will)
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STATISTICS
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Str 21, Dex 12, Con 13, Int 7, Wis 12, Cha 20,
Base Atk +8; CMB +13; CMD 26
Feats Improved Initiative, Lunge, Power Attack, Toughness
Skills
Traits Indomitable Faith, Magical Knack,
Languages Common
SQ aura of courage, aura of good, aura of resolve, celestial spirit, detect evil, divine health, dual talent, mercy (fatigued), lay on hands, mercy (staggered),
Combat Gear
Other Gear headband of alluring charisma +2, jingasa of the fortunate soldier, greatsword +2, ring of protection +1, belt of giant strength +2, cloak of resistance +2, full plate +2, 0.0 gp
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SPECIAL ABILITIES
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Aura of Courage (Su) You are immune to fear (magical or otherwise). Each ally within 10 feet of you gains a +4 morale bonus on saving throws against fear effects. This ability functions only while you are conscious, not if you are unconscious or dead.
Aura of Good (Ex) You project a strong good aura.
Aura of Resolve (Su) You are immune to charm spells and spell-like abilities. Each ally within 10 feet of you gains a +4 morale bonus on saving throws against charm effects. This ability functions only while you are conscious, not if you are unconscious or dead.
Celestial Spirit (Sp) Your divine bond allows you to enhance your weapon as a standard action by calling upon the aid of a celestial spirit for 8 minutes. When called, the spirit causes the weapon to shed light as a torch. This spirit grants the weapon a +2 enhancement bonus. This bonus can be added to the weapon, stacking with existing weapon bonuses to a maximum of +5, or it can be used to add any of the following weapon properties: defending, flaming, keen, merciful (+1), axiomatic, disruption, flaming burst, holy (+2), speed (+3), and brilliant energy (+4). Adding these properties consumes an amount of bonus equal to the property's cost. These bonuses are added to any properties the weapon already has, but duplicate abilities do not stack. If the weapon is not magical, at least a +1 enhancement bonus must be added before any other properties can be added. The bonus and properties granted by the spirit are determined when the spirit is called and cannot be changed until the spirit is called again. The celestial spirit imparts no bonuses if the weapon is held by anyone other than you but resumes giving bonuses if returned to you. These bonuses apply to only one end of a double weapon. You can use this ability 1 times per day. If a weapon bonded with a celestial spirit is destroyed, you lose the use of this ability for 30 days, or until you gain a level, whichever comes first. During this 30-day period, you take a -1 penalty on attack and weapon damage rolls.
Channel Positive Energy
Channel Positive Energy (Su) You can unleash a wave of positive energy dealing 4d6 (DC 19 for half) /day. You can unleash a wave of positive energy. You must choose to deal 4d6 points of positive energy damage to undead creatures or to heal living creatures of 4d6 points of damage. Creatures that take damage from channeled energy receive a DC 19 Will save to halve the damage. Using this ability consumes two uses of her lay on hands ability.
Detect Evil (Sp) At will, you can use Detect Evil, as the Spell. You can, as a move action, concentrate on a single individual or item within 60 feet and determine if it is evil, learning the strength of its aura as if having studied it for 3 rounds. While focusing on one individual or object, you do not detect evil in any other object or individual within range.
Divine Health (Ex) You are immune to all diseases, including supernatural and magical diseases, including mummy rot.
Dual Talent Some humans are uniquely skilled at maximizing their natural gifts. These humans pick two ability scores and gain a +2 racial bonus in each of those scores. This racial trait replaces the +2 bonus to any one ability score, the bonus feat, and the skilled traits.
Mercy (Fatigued) (Su) Whenever you use Lay on Hands to heal damage to one target, the target is no longer fatigued.
Indomitable Faith You were born in a region where your faith was not popular, but you still have never abandoned it. Your constant struggle to maintain your own faith has bolstered your drive. You gain a +1 trait bonus on Will saves.
Lay on Hands (Su) You can heal wounds (your own or those of others) by touch. Each day you can use this ability 9 times per day. With one use of this ability, you can heal 4d6 hit points of damage. Using this ability is a standard action, unless you target yourself, in which case it is a swift action. Despite the name of this ability, you only need one free hand to use this ability. Alternatively, you can use this healing power to deal damage to undead creatures, dealing 4d6 points of damage. Using Lay on Hands in this way requires a melee touch attack and doesn't provide an attack of opportunity. Undead do not receive a saving throw against this damage.
Seeker You are always on the lookout for reward and danger. You gain a +1 trait bonus on Perception checks, and Perception is always a class skill for you.
Smite Evil (Su) You can call out to the powers of good to aid you in your struggle against evil 3 times per day. As a swift action, you choose one target within sight to smite. If this target is evil, you add +5 to your attack rolls and +8 to all damage rolls made against the target of your smite. If the target of Smite Evil is an outsider with the evil subtype, an evil-aligned dragon, or an undead creature, the bonus to damage on the first successful attack increases to +16. Regardless of the target, Smite Evil attacks automatically bypass any DR the creature might possess. In addition, while smite evil is in effect, you gain a +5 deflection bonus to your AC against attacks made by the target of the smite. If you target a creature that is not evil, the smite is wasted with no effect. The Smite Evil effect remains until the target of the smite is dead or the next time you rest and regain your uses of this ability.
Mercy (Staggered) (Su) Whenever you use Lay on Hands to heal damage to one target, the target is no longer staggered, unless it is at exactly 0 hit points.