I never played the monks to full extent, not in pathfinder. I was just comparing both classes, the Core Monk and the Unchained Monk. At first sight i liked the Unchained Monk, then i was reviewing it... and i started to like it less and less, and finally i don't like it more than the Core Monk. It is not better, maybe easier, but not a better Monk.
Its weakest side is they moved some of the core abilities and made them ki powers, but the ki pool is too limited to really compare those powers with the original abilities that could be used with no limit! In that aspect the Core Monk is more powerful, cause they can use those abilities constantly.
The second weakest aspect is a poor will save. It is the most important aspect of a monk, its willpower! I can even imagine a weak fortitude save, but not a weak will save! This is not a monk thing!
For me, this no longer looks like a monk but a martial artist student. It looks more like a Chuck Norris or Van Dame character than a shaolin monk.
Am i wrong on this one?
You are right on the money with this analysis. There have been many discussions about this very topic. It is true, the unchained monk has a higher damage potential. Although it has sacrificed much of what made it unique, such as the strong will save. I think some of the things they did were interesting. But I am not a fan of the unchained monk as a whole.
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It's a better Monk.
1. I find this to be incorrect. The Monk has shit ass accuracy and you are spending ki points to get extra attacks to hit some day. The UnMonk hits more reliably, and thus spends less ki on extra ki attacks. The Core Monk doesn't even have that many abilities that I would want as Ki Powers. I'd prefer Elemental Fury and so on. Plus, constant Spell Resistance isn't better than Spell Resistance that you can turn on.
2. The "UnMonk has a weak will save" thing is a myth. Core Monk needs a 16 on Constitution to be on pair with as 12 CON UnMonk. Those points that the Core Monk was spending on CON are now spend on WIS on the UnMonk, allowing you for a higher base WIS, which means higher AC and higher ki points and higher Will saves.
Plus, the UnMonk is not feat starved, so you can always get Iron Will. Still Mind is also a good way to fix it.
The ONLY time that a Core Monk would have higher Will saves is HIGH END games... and then the UnMonk has Flawless Mind.
The Core Monk is dead.
You need to see the UMonk as it's own class and not compare it to Core Monk. On it's own it's an interesting Martial character that doesn't wear armor.
The other option is to think of it as modifying the Brawler class and then it makes sense too.
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The biggest flaw in the UMonk isn't compared to the CMonk but compared to all of the archetypes available to the CMonk (and completely shut off from the UMonk).
This.
The Umonk is FAR superior to a core monk. But it's about the same in comparison to an old monk built with archetype combos by someone who knows what they're doing.
Even in a straight brawl - the Sohei makes a better Dex monk once they get Weapon Training and grab some Gloves of Dueling - though it's worse at low levels. A Umonk is probably a better Str monk beatstick with the 1.5x STR damage with a TH weapon.
Umonk's Flying Kick is very nice, and a couple other things.
But yes - overall it's a sidegrade. It is great to have to give to new players though. The core monk (without qinggong especially) is a trap because it has so many cool sounding things. Not nearly as much of a trap as the 3.x monk - but still weak.
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The biggest flaw in the UMonk isn't compared to the CMonk but compared to all of the archetypes available to the CMonk (and completely shut off from the UMonk).This.
The Umonk is FAR superior to a core monk. But it's about the same in comparison to an old monk built with archetype combos by someone who knows what they're doing.
Which, if correct (and I agree with you, and also agree with Bob Bob Bob except when he calls it a 'flaw', though I'm thinking he means more in the sense of mitigating factor rather, in which case I agree with that too), means we succeeded with the Unchained monk. The problem that led to the Unchained monk was that the core vanilla monk was underperforming in many games, especially for new players, full of trap options and the likelihood of making a 'flurry of misses" character. Having played with or as some of those archetype combos you mention, they did just fine on their own, and were usually powerhouses in their own right (heck, some of them could solo published adventures).
It's a better Monk.
1. I find this to be incorrect. The Monk has s+%% ass accuracy and you are spending ki points to get extra attacks to hit some day. The UnMonk hits more reliably, and thus spends less ki on extra ki attacks. The Core Monk doesn't even have that many abilities that I would want as Ki Powers. I'd prefer Elemental Fury and so on. Plus, constant Spell Resistance isn't better than Spell Resistance that you can turn on.
I'd say yes and no. For the attack, you are right, for the defense, not. Immunity to poison is a very good thing to always have.
2. The "UnMonk has a weak will save" thing is a myth. Core Monk needs a 16 on Constitution to be on pair with as 12 CON UnMonk. Those points that the Core Monk was spending on CON are now spend on WIS on the UnMonk, allowing you for a higher base WIS, which means higher AC and higher ki points and higher Will saves.
I say no to this argument.
The 12 Con UMonk has a lower Fortitude save than the 16 Con Monk, by 2 points.
Anyway, it is not really wise to sacrificing points in a good save to compensate a poor save.
But really the improvement of the d10 over the d8 is 1, not 2, so the Con 12 UMonk compares to the Con 14 Monk. That is not a big thing, the extra HPs are just 1 per lvl (in average) for the same Con score. Also, to have too many hit points is not that good in the game. As the rules are now, hit points are just like credits, so the UMonk has a "bigger" HPs wallet than the base monk (not that really big). Anyway with good supporting characters in the party this is not an issue, healing spells heal the same amount so both classes need the same amount of healing for the same damage.
BTW, with a core Monk i won't sacrifice Wisdom to just have one more HP per level, i prefer that bonus on AC, ki pool and will save.
In the end what i mean is: it made more sense to sacrifice the fortitude save than the will one for a monk. A monk with poor will save? Please!
Plus, the UnMonk is not feat starved, so you can always get Iron Will. Still Mind is also a good way to fix it.
The ONLY time that a Core Monk would have higher Will saves is HIGH END games... and then the UnMonk has Flawless Mind.
The Core Monk is dead.
I can also add Iron Will to the base Monk, making it even better.
Anyway... i still think it is not a monk, but a martial artist... a brawler variant maybe...
Which, if correct (and I agree with you, and also agree with Bob Bob Bob accept when he calls it a 'flaw', though I'm thinking he means more in the sense of mitigating factor rather, in which case I agree even then), means we succeeded with the Unchained monk. The problem that led to the Unchained monk was that the core vanilla monk was underperforming in many games, especially for new players, full of trap options and the likelihood of making a 'flurry of misses" character. Having played with or as some of those archetype combos you mention, they did just fine on their own, and were usually powerhouses in their own right (heck, some of them could solo published adventures).The biggest flaw in the UMonk isn't compared to the CMonk but compared to all of the archetypes available to the CMonk (and completely shut off from the UMonk).This.
The Umonk is FAR superior to a core monk. But it's about the same in comparison to an old monk built with archetype combos by someone who knows what they're doing.
Well, you are right. I agree that a better BAB and a Flurry of Blows a la 3E was the way to fix the flurry of misses. We have to admit that Flurry of Blows mechanics working like Two-Weapon Fighting is a mistake, because TWF is a very poor option under PF.
But... it is not the topic of my question. I was asking about why some features, like Diamond Body, became a ki power, instead of remaining constant and why the will save is a poor save, why will? Monks are the wise guys, the masters of their own minds. In fantasy monk's will is one of their strongest features, not their weakest features; they could have weak bodies, but powerful minds. In wuxia genre even demons can't enchant monks. So, i think it is a mistake.
cablop, I think you're getting too hung up on minor things. The Will save is not a big deal. The monk is still good at resisting mind-affecting effects and have tons of abilities that thwart them.
The reason many class features are now ki powers is because many people have different preference on what abilities they want their monk to have. Some want ninjas. Some want wise sages. Some want to do Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon type of stuff. I do agree it's annoying having some of the passive abilities now require ki points. I would have preferred if there were two ki power pools: one for passive powers and one for active powers.
I have to say, that i still like the class enough to want to use it for some characters, but not for real monks. Characters like Sato Asami from the legend of Korra or the Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon ones would really work with this class.
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Which, if correct (and I agree with you, and also agree with Bob Bob Bob accept when he calls it a 'flaw', though I'm thinking he means more in the sense of mitigating factor rather, in which case I agree even then), means we succeeded with the Unchained monk. The problem that led to the Unchained monk was that the core vanilla monk was underperforming in many games, especially for new players, full of trap options and the likelihood of making a 'flurry of misses" character. Having played with or as some of those archetype combos you mention, they did just fine on their own, and were usually powerhouses in their own right (heck, some of them could solo published adventures).The biggest flaw in the UMonk isn't compared to the CMonk but compared to all of the archetypes available to the CMonk (and completely shut off from the UMonk).This.
The Umonk is FAR superior to a core monk. But it's about the same in comparison to an old monk built with archetype combos by someone who knows what they're doing.
Well, you are right. I agree that a better BAB and a Flurry of Blows a la 3E was the way to fix the flurry of misses. We have to admit that Flurry of Blows mechanics working like Two-Weapon Fighting is a mistake, because TWF is a very poor option under PF.
But... it is not the topic of my question. I was asking about why some features, like Diamond Body, became a ki power, instead of remaining constant and why the will save is a poor save, why will? Monks are the wise guys, the masters of their own minds. In fantasy monk's will is one of their strongest features, not their weakest features; they could have weak bodies, but powerful minds. In wuxia genre even demons can't enchant monks. So, i think it is a mistake.
Not always. Sometimes they are a+~*!*#s or drunks.
You still have a good Will save just out of the major Will focus the class has. The Fighter is out there buying +3 ghost touch full plate. You are buying a +6 WIS headband.
You also put more points into WIS than any other martial.
The end result is that you get high Will saves out of your own efforts, rather than being taught those things baseline, but the end result is the same.
Don't knock it before you try it.
Which, if correct (and I agree with you, and also agree with Bob Bob Bob accept when he calls it a 'flaw', though I'm thinking he means more in the sense of mitigating factor rather, in which case I agree with that too), means we succeeded with the Unchained monk. The problem that led to the Unchained monk was that the core vanilla monk was underperforming in many games, especially for new players, full of trap options and the likelihood of making a 'flurry of misses" character. Having played with or as some of those archetype combos you mention, they did just fine on their own, and were usually powerhouses in their own right (heck, some of them could solo published adventures).The biggest flaw in the UMonk isn't compared to the CMonk but compared to all of the archetypes available to the CMonk (and completely shut off from the UMonk).This.
The Umonk is FAR superior to a core monk. But it's about the same in comparison to an old monk built with archetype combos by someone who knows what they're doing.
I will use this chance to request MOAR ARCHETYPES, particularly with baseline weapon proficiency because the one biggest issue I find with Monks right now is that they suck with weapons without Ascetic Style (which is banned in PFS). Mostly because of Style Strikes restrictions and that ki pool only grants extra unarmed attacks.
Also some sort of Martial Artist would be great too kthnxbye.
I will use this chance to request MOAR ARCHETYPES, particularly with baseline weapon proficiency because the one biggest issue I find with Monks right now is that they suck with weapons without Ascetic Style (which is banned in PFS). Mostly because of Style Strikes restrictions and that ki pool only grants extra unarmed attacks.
Also some sort of Martial Artist would be great too kthnxbye.
I second that.
I wanted to be able to create a monk like Li Mu Bai, until i realized the Flurry of Blows he could perform with a jian sword is not doable by RAW.
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Even in a straight brawl - the Sohei makes a better Dex monk once they get Weapon Training and grab some Gloves of Dueling - though it's worse at low levels. A Umonk is probably a better Str monk beatstick with the 1.5x STR damage with a TH weapon.A brawling chain shirt goes a long way toward putting a Str-based sohei on the same level as a Str-based unchained monk.
Maybe - but at the cost of having good defenses. A Str sohei with a chain shirt has a rather mediocre AC.
I will use this chance to request MOAR ARCHETYPES, particularly with baseline weapon proficiency because the one biggest issue I find with Monks right now is that they suck with weapons without Ascetic Style (which is banned in PFS). Mostly because of Style Strikes restrictions and that ki pool only grants extra unarmed attacks.
Also some sort of Martial Artist would be great too kthnxbye.
I second that.
I wanted to be able to create a monk like Li Mu Bai, until i realized the Flurry of Blows he could perform with a jian sword is not doable by RAW.
Ascetic Style/Form allows you to do it, though the style feat isn't PFS legal.
STR-based Ascetic Style 2H Unchained Monk is the highest damage + mobility out there, second only to the likes of Magus. Plus, you can rock a 20 + level AC without much issue.
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Unless your Str-based unchained monks typically begin with 18 Wisdom, the sohei with the chain shirt is going to have a higher AC. What's more, the sohei can get by with lower wisdom, since they have good will saves and less ki-consuming abilities. This will allow them to spend more of their point-buy on other secondary stats like dexterity, which in turn improves their AC.Maybe - but at the cost of having good defenses. A Str sohei with a chain shirt has a rather mediocre AC.Even in a straight brawl - the Sohei makes a better Dex monk once they get Weapon Training and grab some Gloves of Dueling - though it's worse at low levels. A Umonk is probably a better Str monk beatstick with the 1.5x STR damage with a TH weapon.A brawling chain shirt goes a long way toward putting a Str-based sohei on the same level as a Str-based unchained monk.
Only if the unchained monk is stupid.
A smart unchained monk (and normal monk for that matter) will get Mage Armor ASAP and be 2 AC higher with just a 14 Wis (and if the Sohei dumps Wis the Umonk won't have the drawback of a lower Will save). The Sohei with chain shirt may close the difference to as little as +1 when they put +1 on the chain shirt, but as you level - getting +Wis items and class bonuses to AC, the difference will only grow long-term, eventually putting the chain shirt Sohei 6-8+ AC behind.
Just to make an example to OP, here's how one of your "low will" Monks looks like at level 8.
Keep in mind Ascetic Style + Form allow the use of the Temple Sword with Stunning Fist, with Flying Kick and with extra attacks from Ki Pool. Plus, it benefits from the damage reduction bypassing.
Li Mu Bai
Male Human monk 8
LG Medium humanoid (human)
Init +3, Senses Perception +16
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DEFENSE
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AC 27, touch 22, flat-footed 23 (+2 armor, +1 deflection, +3 Dex, +1 dodge, +3 barkskin)
hp 56 ((8d10)+8)
Fort +9, Ref +11,
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OFFENSE
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Speed 50 ft.
Melee Flurry sword +2 (temple) +16/+16/+11 (1d8+10/19-20)
Melee Flurry + ki pool extra attack sword +2 (temple) +16/+16/+16/+11 (1d8+10/19-20)
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STATISTICS
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Str 21, Dex 16, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 20, Cha 7,
Base Atk +8; CMB +13 ; CMD 35
Feats Ascetic Form, Ascetic Style, Combat Reflexes, Dodge, Improved Unarmed Strike, Iron Will, Mobility, Stunning Fist (DC 19), Weapon Focus (Sword (Temple))
Skills Acrobatics +10, Acrobatics (Jump) +18, Climb +12, Knowledge (History) +7, Perception +16, Sense Motive +12, Stealth +10, Swim +12,
Traits Indomitable Faith, Monk Weapon Skill (Combat),
Languages Common
SQ ac bonus, bonus feat, bonus ki (8x), dual talent, evasion, fast movement, flurry of blows, flying kick, high jump, ki pool, ki powers, purity of body, qinggong power (barkskin), slow fall, still mind, stunning fist, style strike, unarmed strike, weapon and armor proficiency,
Combat Gear
Other Gear headband of inspired wisdom +2, ring of protection +1, bracers of armor +2, sword +2 (temple), belt of physical might (str/dex) +2, cloak of resistance +2, 670.0 gp
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SPECIAL ABILITIES
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Total Ki: 11 (4 level + 5 Wisdom + 2 FCB)
FCB: Bonus Ki (8x) Add +1/4 to the monk's ki pool.
Dual Talent Some humans are uniquely skilled at maximizing their natural gifts. These humans pick two ability scores and gain a +2 racial bonus in each of those scores. This racial trait replaces the +2 bonus to any one ability score, the bonus feat, and the skilled traits.
Flying Kick The monk leaps through the air to strike a foe with a kick. Before the attack, the monk can move a distance equal to his fast movement bonus. This movement is made as part of the monk's f lurry of blows attack and does not require an additional action. At the end of this movement, the monk must make an attack against an adjacent foe. This movement may be between attacks. This movement provokes an attack of opportunity as normal. The attack made after the movement must be a kick.
High Jump (Ex) A monk with this ki power adds his level as a bonus on all Acrobatics checks to jump, both for vertical jumps and horizontal jumps. In addition, he always counts as having a running start when attempting Acrobatics checks to jump. By spending 1 point from his ki pool as a swift action, the monk gains a +20 bonus on Acrobatics checks to jump for 1 round.
Monk Weapon Skill (Combat) Your exposure to teaching from the Houses of Perfection makes your attacks with monk weapons even more deadly. Select one monk weapon with which you are proficient (unarmed attacks do not qualify for this purpose). You gain a +1 trait bonus on damage rolls with this weapon.
Purity of Body (Ex) At 5th level, a monk gains immunity to all diseases, including supernatural and magical diseases.
Qinggong Power (Su) A monk with this power selects any of the qinggong monk ki powers (Pathfinder RPG Ultimate Magic 51) for which he qualifies based on his monk level. A monk can select this ability multiple times. Each time, he must select a different qinggong monk ki power.
Slow Fall (Su) A monk within arm's reach of a wall can use it to slow his descent by expending 1 point from his ki pool. When he uses this ability, he takes no damage from the fall (as if using feather fall), but he must be adjacent to a wall for the length of the fall (although this can be used to reduce the damage from a fall if only part of it is adjacent to a wall).
Still Mind (Ex) At 4th level, a monk gains a +2 bonus on saving throws against enchantment spells and effects.
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Which, if correct (and I agree with you, and also agree with Bob Bob Bob accept when he calls it a 'flaw', though I'm thinking he means more in the sense of mitigating factor rather, in which case I agree with that too), means we succeeded with the Unchained monk. The problem that led to the Unchained monk was that the core vanilla monk was underperforming in many games, especially for new players, full of trap options and the likelihood of making a 'flurry of misses" character. Having played with or as some of those archetype combos you mention, they did just fine on their own, and were usually powerhouses in their own right (heck, some of them could solo published adventures).The biggest flaw in the UMonk isn't compared to the CMonk but compared to all of the archetypes available to the CMonk (and completely shut off from the UMonk).This.
The Umonk is FAR superior to a core monk. But it's about the same in comparison to an old monk built with archetype combos by someone who knows what they're doing.
I sort of got that vibe. Frankly - I got the impression that the old Qinggong archetype was really a stealth buff for the monk - but a lot of new players didn't know that, and were drawn to the core monk because of all of the special abilities. Plus - monks are just cool.
However, not knowing the Qinggong was needed (stacked with another archetype or two is even better but less necessary) to be avoid a "flurry of misses" character - they ran into trouble.
Just for the record, I'm trying to see if I can make a Sohei that can have as high damage, Will save or AC as the character listed above and I'm failing to do that.
A STR one will deal +17/+17/+12/+12 (1d8+12) damage but have 22 AC and +10 Will, though he'll have 63 HP, 7 more than the UnMonk version... that is dumping INT too, and keeping 16 WIS so less Ki Pool, no Stunning Fist, and since it's Sohei, no Slow Fall, which the build above has. It has some advantages, but less of a Will save, less AC, cannot use Ascetic Strike due to no leveling on Unarmed Strikes... cannot see how the regular monk can make a better Li Mu Bai than the unchained honestly.
If the HP is something that tempts you, you can go with Toughness on the build above rather than Iron Will and match it on 62 HP and +10 Will.
A DEX one... requires magic weapons to work, so no go from levels 1 to whenever you can afford a +2 weapon. Cheesy as f@%$.
On the core monk, if one only took things from the Umonk (afterall, I see some of those as more of suggestions that you can implement rather than wholesale one or the other if it is a home game), you could combo for a more powerful combination...perhaps.
What happens if you give the core monk full BAB and D10? Or if you give them one or the other (I'd lean towards full BAB myself)...what about then?
(My actual home rules for the Monk tend to actually be fashioned after the C&C style of full BAB and D12 for the Monk).
A DEX one... requires magic weapons to work, so no go from levels 1 to whenever you can afford a +2 weapon. Cheesy as f*%#.If you go unarmed you can get an Agile AoMF with no +1.
Worth 4k though, and you still rely on magic items. Plus, going unarmed makes you miss out on the great crit rates you could have with this archetype.
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Just for the record, I'm trying to see if I can make a Sohei that can have as high damage, Will save or AC as the character listed above and I'm failing to do that.
A STR one will deal +17/+17/+12/+12 (1d8+12) damage but have 22 AC and +10 Will, though he'll have 63 HP, 7 more than the UnMonk version... that is dumping INT too, and keeping 16 WIS so less Ki Pool, no Stunning Fist, and since it's Sohei, no Slow Fall, which the build above has. It has some advantages, but less of a Will save, less AC, cannot use Ascetic Strike due to no leveling on Unarmed Strikes... cannot see how the regular monk can make a better Li Mu Bai than the unchained honestly.
At level 8 the Umonk will have the edge in DPR with the same defensive spending - especially in a STR build. The Sohei's DPR doesn't go as high for another level or two when they can afford Gloves of Dueling.
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Worth 4k though, and you still rely on magic items. Plus, going unarmed makes you miss out on the great crit rates you could have with this archetype.A DEX one... requires magic weapons to work, so no go from levels 1 to whenever you can afford a +2 weapon. Cheesy as f*%#.If you go unarmed you can get an Agile AoMF with no +1.
I'm with you - just giving the option. I'm not a huge Sohei fan anyway even if it does have the best DPR of the base monk archetypes. Losing the movement hurts too much to me. I prefer Drunken Master, Sensei, and a couple other niche archetypes.
If I were building a monk to be a beatstick - I'd probably go Umonk.
Which, if correct (and I agree with you, and also agree with Bob Bob Bob accept when he calls it a 'flaw', though I'm thinking he means more in the sense of mitigating factor rather, in which case I agree with that too), means we succeeded with the Unchained monk. The problem that led to the Unchained monk was that the core vanilla monk was underperforming in many games, especially for new players, full of trap options and the likelihood of making a 'flurry of misses" character. Having played with or as some of those archetype combos you mention, they did just fine on their own, and were usually powerhouses in their own right (heck, some of them could solo published adventures).The biggest flaw in the UMonk isn't compared to the CMonk but compared to all of the archetypes available to the CMonk (and completely shut off from the UMonk).This.
The Umonk is FAR superior to a core monk. But it's about the same in comparison to an old monk built with archetype combos by someone who knows what they're doing.
I will use this chance to request MOAR ARCHETYPES, particularly with baseline weapon proficiency because the one biggest issue I find with Monks right now is that they suck with weapons without Ascetic Style (which is banned in PFS). Mostly because of Style Strikes restrictions and that ki pool only grants extra unarmed attacks.
Also some sort of Martial Artist would be great too kthnxbye.
You could build a chained monk that uses one of the archetypes that get to use weapons.
Sohei can get that kind of offensive power very easily.
Nodachi, 18 (20 with belt) strength, weapon specialization, weapon training, +2 weapon and I have already surpassed the damage output of the monk you posted with a better crit chance to boot.
At level 8 the Umonk will have the edge in DPR with the same defensive spending - especially in a STR build. The Sohei's DPR doesn't go as high for another level or two when they can afford Gloves of Dueling.Just for the record, I'm trying to see if I can make a Sohei that can have as high damage, Will save or AC as the character listed above and I'm failing to do that.
A STR one will deal +17/+17/+12/+12 (1d8+12) damage but have 22 AC and +10 Will, though he'll have 63 HP, 7 more than the UnMonk version... that is dumping INT too, and keeping 16 WIS so less Ki Pool, no Stunning Fist, and since it's Sohei, no Slow Fall, which the build above has. It has some advantages, but less of a Will save, less AC, cannot use Ascetic Strike due to no leveling on Unarmed Strikes... cannot see how the regular monk can make a better Li Mu Bai than the unchained honestly.
The build I used has Gloves of Dueling. Again, I don't think any regular Monk build can be better than the Li Mu Bai build I posted in terms of overall bruiser potential.
Which, if correct (and I agree with you, and also agree with Bob Bob Bob accept when he calls it a 'flaw', though I'm thinking he means more in the sense of mitigating factor rather, in which case I agree with that too), means we succeeded with the Unchained monk. The problem that led to the Unchained monk was that the core vanilla monk was underperforming in many games, especially for new players, full of trap options and the likelihood of making a 'flurry of misses" character. Having played with or as some of those archetype combos you mention, they did just fine on their own, and were usually powerhouses in their own right (heck, some of them could solo published adventures).The biggest flaw in the UMonk isn't compared to the CMonk but compared to all of the archetypes available to the CMonk (and completely shut off from the UMonk).This.
The Umonk is FAR superior to a core monk. But it's about the same in comparison to an old monk built with archetype combos by someone who knows what they're doing.
I will use this chance to request MOAR ARCHETYPES, particularly with baseline weapon proficiency because the one biggest issue I find with Monks right now is that they suck with weapons without Ascetic Style (which is banned in PFS). Mostly because of Style Strikes restrictions and that ki pool only grants extra unarmed attacks.
Also some sort of Martial Artist would be great too kthnxbye.
You could build a chained monk that uses one of the archetypes that get to use weapons.
Sohei can get that kind of offensive power very easily.
Nodachi, 18 (20 with belt) strength, weapon specialization, weapon training, +2 weapon and I have already surpassed the damage output of the monk you posted with a better crit chance to boot.
Build at level 8 with 20 point buy, 2 traits and WBL or scram, mister.
I don't have to build a fully fleshed out stat sheet to show that chained monk can compete on damage. I already showed that with some easily accomplished things at level 8 20 point buy and wbl.
Not my fault if you can't see how the character fits together. But to help you out I will give the damage break down.
1d10 [5.5 damage on average] +5 str +2 weapon specialization +1 weapon training +2 enhancement.
1d10 + 10 > 1d8 + 10. I am not even counting my better Crit range or using gloves of dueling yet. (fyi unchained monk doesn't have weapon training so no bonus to damage there for them)
Attack progression, +5 from strength, +6 from flurry bab, +1 weapon focus, +1 cracked pale green prism.
+15/+15/+10/+10/+15 one less than yours but I think your miscalculated you total to hit.
DISCLAIMER: I'm about to tear into the above guy's build. This is not because I'm an a*++~~&. It's because I feel like there's a lot of myths going on about the Unchained Monk ("low will saves" and so on). The only way to disprove them is actual build comparison. People are keen to forget how much better is the UnMonk in fulfilling the Monk fantasy of mobility, good damage and good resiliency.
1. I didn't miscalculate anything. +8 BAB +5 STR +2 enhancement +1 weapon focus = +16. I could make a really snarky comment about something like "it's not my fault that you can't see how blah blah blah" but I'm a really swell guy and above that kind of unnecessary jabs. PS: Clearly I'm not ;P
2. You never qualify for Weapon Specialization. Am I missing something? You don't actually have an effective Fighter level.
3. UnMonk doesn't have Weapon Training but it has scaling unarmed dice and access to Ascetic Style. Once I'm level, say, 9, I can pick up Ascetic Strike and a Monk's Robe and turn my 1d8 dice to 1d10. Not something I would personally do, but yannow, stuff scales with level. By level 12 I'm dealing 2d6 damage with my weapon.
4. Your damage plummets without Flurry. My guy, on the other hand, has Flying Kick. That's an non quantitative bonus you cannot ever compensate for.
End result, you are not dealing more damage, just have a bigger critical hit rate... and to top it off, your defense will be much worse.
I mocked up your build here for you to see:
Male Human monk 8 Archetypes Qinggong Monk (Wholeness of Body), Sohei,
LG Medium humanoid (human)
Init +10, Senses Perception +1
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DEFENSE
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AC 25, touch 17, flat-footed 20 (+5 armor, +1 deflection, +4 Dex, +1 dodge, +1 insight, +3 barkskin)
hp 71 ((8d8)+32)
Fort +10, Ref +11, Will +8, +2 vs. enchantment spells and effects
Defensive Abilities evasion, still mind,
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OFFENSE
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Speed 30 ft., Fast Movement, High Jump
Regular Hit nodachi +2 +15 (1d10+10/18-20)
Melee Flurry nodachi +2 +15/+15/+10/+10 (1d10+10/18-20)
Melee Flurry with Ki Attack nodachi +2 +15/+15/+15/+10/+10 (1d10+10/18-20)
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STATISTICS
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Str 21, Dex 18, Con 16, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 7,
Base Atk +6; CMB +13 (+15 disarm); CMD 28 (30 vs disarm)
Feats Combat Reflexes, Dodge, Extra Ki (2x), Improved Disarm, Improved Unarmed Strike, Toughness, Weapon Focus (Nodachi)
Skills
Traits Reactionary, Honored Fist of the Scoiety
Languages Common
SQ ac bonus, barkskin, bonus feats, bonus ki (8x), devoted guardian, dual talent, fast movement, high jump, ki weapon, maneuver training, monastic mount, skills, unarmed strike, unarmed strike, weapon and armor proficiency, weapon training, weapon training,
Combat Gear
Other Gear ring of protection +1, nodachi +2, cloak of resistance +1, quick runner's shirt, belt of physical might (str/con) +2, chain shirt +1, ioun stone, pale green prism - cracked ~ attacks, ioun stone, dusty rose prism, 390.0 gp
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SPECIAL ABILITIES
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AC Bonus (Ex) When unarmored and unencumbered, you add +3 to your AC and your CMD. These bonuses apply even against touch attacks or when you are flat-footed. You lose these bonuses when you are immobilized or helpless, when you wear any armor, when you carry a shield, or when you carry a medium or heavy load.
Barkskin (Sp) Spend 1 ki point to use barkskin (self-only) as a spell-like ability (caster level 8).
Bonus Ki (8x) Add +1/4 to the monk's ki pool.
Evasion (Ex) You can avoid damage from many area-effect attacks. If you make a successful Reflex saving throw against an attack that normally deals half damage on a successful save, you instead take no damage. Evasion can only be used if you are wearing light armor or no armor. If you are helpless, you do not gain the benefit of evasion.
Ki Pool (Su) You have a pool of 10 ki points, supernatural energy he can use to accomplish amazing feats.
Weapon Training (Ex) Attacks with a weapon from listed groups, gain a bonus on attack and damage rolls. (Included in weapon blocks) Pole Arms +1
Is this build STRICTLY WORSE AND UNPLAYABLE? God no, it has a shit ton more of Initiative and HP. Through feat use, Ki Pool remains the same by 1 point.
Damage is better by +1 damage (that's the difference between 1d8+10 and 1d10+10 on average) but with a better crit rate for sure.
I ran the numbers vs. 21 AC (standard for CR8 enemy) - your DPR is 48 damage while flurrying.
Since your build doesn't have Slow Fall as the OP requested, Imma say that my guy would probably have Elemental Fury instead for 4 rounds of +1d6 elemental damage. Sounds fair, right?
That gives me 41 DPR on my build. You have a +7 damage boost...
But your build has:
- No Flying Kick, even if it's reliant on Flurry of Blows to deal massive damage.
If my guy starts the turn 20 feet from a target, he's dealing the full 41 DPR. If your guy does, you need those Quick Runner's Shirt uses or you are going to have to deal a measly 15.5 DPR with a charge attack, or 14 DPR with a regular attack.
- No Fast Movement (Sohei can Flurry with light armor but it cannot use AC Bonus or Fast Movement with it)
- AC and Will saves are worse. Remember how OP said regular Monks had better Will saves? XD Yeah, I laughed too.
- No Slow Fall, which is what the OP wanted for his Li Mu Bai :P If I so wanted, I could replace Slow Fall on my build with Elemental Fury, adding +1d6 elemental damage to my output for a good amount of time, effectively allowing to equal damage output.
Again, I'd probably wouldn't go anywhere near calling that build bad. 70 HP is great, the AC is a bit lower but with growth potential for sure, and you deal good damage if you can stick to a target.
But it has several disadvantages over the UnMonk, most glaringly the absolute and total reliance on full-attacks but no mobility at all. You don't even have access to Abundant Step.
So post a build or scram.
Question, Secret Wizard. What kind of point buy are you using for these builds? Can't tell for sure, but it's definitely more than 20 points unless I'm missing something.
Your build's stats after removing gear bonuses:
Str 19, Dex 14, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 18, Cha 7
I'll assume the level up points went into strength, since it's the highest stat. Which would but the level 1 at:
Str 17, Dex 14, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 18, Cha 7
I'll credit the racial bonus to wisdom, since that'd be the smartest way to build it. So for point buy it'd be:
Str 17, Dex 14, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 16, Cha 7
That's a 26 point buy.
Edit: Though the math does work if you made a dual talent human, so is that what you did?
Question, Secret Wizard. What kind of point buy are you using for these builds? Can't tell for sure, but it's definitely more than 20 points unless I'm missing something.
It's 20pt. buy, but I'm using the Dual Talent racial trait of humans for +2 to two stats. It trades the Bonus Feat and the extra skill rank both.
For Monks, It's a must. You live and die by raw attributes.
I also like it for Magus, Occultist and any class who wants +STR/DEX/CON and +INT.
Question, Secret Wizard. What kind of point buy are you using for these builds? Can't tell for sure, but it's definitely more than 20 points unless I'm missing something.It's 20pt. buy, but I'm using the Dual Talent racial trait of humans for +2 to two stats. It trades the Bonus Feat and the extra skill rank both.
For Monks, It's a must. You live and die by raw attributes.
I also like it for Magus, Occultist and any class who wants +STR/DEX/CON and +INT.
Bah, you posted the answer while I was editing that I figured it out on my own.
Working on adapting a pre-existing Sohei build I had lying around. Not sure how well it'll measure up on raw stats, but I had fun with it.
Great to hear! Builds talk, bullshit walks.
1. I didn't miscalculate anything. +8 BAB +5 STR +2 enhancement +1 weapon focus = +16. I could make a really snarky comment about something like "it's not my fault that you can't see how blah blah blah" but I'm a really swell guy and above that kind of unnecessary jabs. PS: Clearly I'm not ;P
2. You never qualify for Weapon Specialization. Am I missing something? You don't actually have an effective Fighter level.
3. UnMonk doesn't have Weapon Training but it has scaling unarmed dice and access to Ascetic Style. Once I'm level, say, 9, I can pick up Ascetic Strike and a Monk's Robe and turn my 1d8 dice to 1d10. Not something I would personally do, but yannow, stuff scales with level. By level 12 I'm dealing 2d6 damage with my weapon.
4. Your damage plummets without Flurry. My guy, on the other hand, has Flying Kick. That's an non quantitative bonus you cannot ever compensate for.
End result, you are not dealing more damage, just have a bigger critical hit rate... and to top it off, your defense will be much worse.
1. You are right I didn't see that you had weapon focus.
2. I can accept that. Toss in the gloves of dueling to make up for it and the bab goes up and the damage goes back to where it was.
3. Well if we are going to be adding other things, at higher levels a base monk generates more attacks, has better saves, and identical AC.
4. Lack of mobility is a concern, but on you are over emphasizing. It really only matters the first round, an only if monsters are not generous enough to get close to you of their own volition. Also Sohei ALWAYS acts on surprise round so most fights you get to move into position early. Also damage doesn't plummmet ad much as you may think since I get to add sir and a half when I do not flurry. Most of my monks also use power attack so that would be another boost to damage.
End result, you missed the point of my post, which was to point that comparative if not slightly superior damage output is quite feasible.
As a side note, Ascetic Style is pretty obviously not what the designers of the monk intended. Look at the Nerf to feral combat training.
@Chengar: did remember racial bonuses and all of his magic items?
As a side note, Ascetic Style is pretty obviously not what the designers of the monk intended. Look at the Nerf to feral combat training.
Just for the record, I'm using Ascetic Style like the designer intended it to:
- First feat: basically Feral Combat Training.
- Second feat: Feral Combat Training but for class features (nicely goes online at level 5, just when you get Style Strikes to use it with)
- Third feat: Basically Close Weapon Mastery for monk weapons.
I'm not allowing the first feat to grant me full unarmed damage dice or anything.
4. Lack of mobility is a concern, but on you are over emphasizing. It really only matters the first round, an only if monsters are not generous enough to get close to you of their own volition. Also Sohei ALWAYS acts on surprise round so most fights you get to move into position early. Also damage doesn't plummmet ad much as you may think since I get to add sir and a half when I do not flurry. Most of my monks also use power attack so that would be another boost to damage.
Whether I overvalue mobility or not is left to each player. I think it's way more useful than you make it sound. Rarely enemies allow you to stand and maul at them in my experience. But mobility is also the whole point of the Monk.
If Power Attack was added, both builds would deal more damage, and my build would get closer to yours:
Mine would deal 51.5 damage per round.
Yours would deal 56 damage.
That's 4.5 damage difference and you'd have to give up Extra Ki (because you can't pick neither Weapon Focus, Power Attack or Extra Ki on first level, so you have to take Toughness or Imp Initiative or something like that).
My build would probably give up Iron Will.
That would put my builds 2 Ki points ahead of yours, and with +2 Will save, for a -4.5 damage penalty.
The reason why I didn't add Power Attack to either build was because you are not likely to be fighting CR8 monsters, you are probably fighting monsters with much higher AC.
2. I can accept that. Toss in the gloves of dueling to make up for it and the bab goes up and the damage goes back to where it was.
3. Well if we are going to be adding other things, at higher levels a base monk generates more attacks, has better saves, and identical AC.
But that's the thing, my build scales better. At 11th level, your build only gets an attack a -10.
My build gets an attack at full BAB.
At 11th level, you get gloves of dueling for a +2/+2 bonus.
At 11th level, my build gets Ascetic Strike and Monk's Robe, turning 1d8 damage into 1d10, and then into 2d6, and so on. The best part of this is that it makes weapon damage grow quite well if I ever get Enlarged or Lead Bladed.
My build picks up Imp Critical and Medusa's Wrath by level 10. Your build needs to wait until level 14 to get Medusa's Wrath (and I assume you'd be picking up Ascetic Style feats on the way to use it with your nodachi, giving my build a feat advantage later on).
Your build DOES NOT use AC Bonus, so your AC does NOT scale with level. Mine does!
And so on.
Your damage is only ahead at 8th level.
Earlier, before you have Weapon Training, my guy is ahead.
Later, after the likes of Ascetic Strike, Monk's Robe and the new +full BAB attack on Flurry, my damage is head.
I think we just compared both of our builds at the point where yours is stronger and I think mine still comes up winning.
Maybe your Will saves might outgrow mine, but I have more reasons to get Headbands of Wisdom whereas your Chain Shirt dependency makes you adverse to it.
My point is that if you want superior damage, you can play a Paladin or a Fighter for better results. Hell, even a Champion Medium.
Not a perfect comparison, since the sacred tatoo/fate's favored combo is boosting up the saves quite a bit, but I had this half-orc sohei already made. Though I had to tweak it a bit; it was made on a more generous point buy (20 pb is not fun for monks), and there were one or two house rules that helped it out.
Monk 8 Archetypes Qinggong Monk (Wholeness of Body), Sohei,
LN Medium humanoid (human, orc)
Init +8, Senses Perception +11
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DEFENSE
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AC 23 (27), touch 20, flat-footed 15 (18) (+1 deflection, +2 Dex, +2 class, +3 Wis, +1 dodge, +1 insight, +3 barkskin) Pearl of Power used to by Mage Armor from party wizard.
HP 64 (8+(7d8)+24)
Fort +12, Ref +12, Will +13, +2 vs. enchantment spells and effects
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OFFENSE
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Regular Hit nodachi +2 +14 (1d10+8/18-20)
Melee Flurry nodachi +2 +14/+14/+9/+9 (1d10+8/18-20)
Power Attack Flurry: +11/+11/+6/+6 (1d10+17, 18-20)
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STATISTICS
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Str 20, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 9, Wis 16, Cha 7,
Base Atk +6; CMB +13; CMD 30
Feats Power Attack, Nature Soul, Animal Ally, Boon Companion, Improved Unarmed Strike, Mounted Skirmisher, Dodge, Mounted Combat.
Skills: Handle Animal 8 ranks, Riding 8 ranks, Perception 8 ranks
Traits: Reactionary, Fate's Favored
Gear: Cracked Pale Green Ioun Stone, Dusty Rose Ioun Stone, Lv. 1 Pearl of Power, Nodachi +2, Cloak or Resistance +2, Str Belt +2, Wis Headband +2, Ring of Protection +1, <1k gp
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Animal Companion:
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Large Wolf
Speed: 50
Str 24, Dex 15, Con 19, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 6,
Attack: Bite: +13 (2d6+10 Plus Trip)
AC 21 (+2 Dex, +6 Natural Armor, +3 Monastic Mount)
Feats: Dodge, Toughness, Improved Natural Attack, Weapon Focus
HP: 60 (7d8+28) +16 Temp HP via Monastic Mount
The animal companion/mount was a big part of the build's success. Mounted Skirmisher gave a good form of pseudo-pounce, plus the trip quality on my wolf's bite could be a big DPR booster. Though as I recall the party also had a buffing bard, which might be why I remember the character hitting a lot more often than his raw numbers would suggest. Heroism + Inspire Courage is a very nice combo.
Admittedly, this build did work a lot better with a better point buy, a GM who allowed the wolf via the 3pp Signature Mount Feat (making it less feat-starved) and let the wolf take improved and greater trip because we both felt it made sense regardless of prereqs.
That's a whole other thing, honestly - it has more usage of ki points, problems with large-sized creatures and dungeons, etc. etc.
There's also a couple errata-prone decisions there -
Personally, I think that the Mounted Skirmisher fast track seems like an errata magnet (can't understand how it survived the UC reprint, it's so very damn janky and against the logic of most of the Monk features).
I also don't think it's likely that Fate's Favored will remain that way - the Sacred Tattoo should be a racial bonus like Halfling Luck.
I know I used Ascetic Style which is on the PFS ban list, but I used it in the lowest power incarnation possible as the designer wanted :P
Anyway, there's a build you can do like that for Unchained Monk, but it relies on Pummeling Charge which you need to get at level 9 so it cannot compete with yours. But it does pick up Ki Mount as a ki power!
Still, I think my build is much closer to what the OP wanted.
That's a whole other thing, honestly - it has more usage of ki points, problems with large-sized creatures and dungeons, etc. etc.
There's also a couple errata-prone decisions there -
Personally, I think that the Mounted Skirmisher fast track seems like an errata magnet (can't understand how it survived the UC reprint, it's so very damn janky and against the logic of most of the Monk features).
I also don't think it's likely that Fate's Favored will remain that way - the Sacred Tattoo should be a racial bonus like Halfling Luck.
I know I used Ascetic Style which is on the PFS ban list, but I used it in the lowest power incarnation possible as the designer wanted :P
Anyway, there's a build you can do like that for Unchained Monk, but it relies on Pummeling Charge which you need to get at level 9 so it cannot compete with yours. But it does pick up Ki Mount as a ki power!
Still, I think my build is much closer to what the OP wanted.
Probably, yeah. My wolf-riding Sohei is pretty far from a tradition monk build. I like to think he's a very good "Shirtless Half Orc riding a giant wolf and stabbing things with a huge katana" build, though, and since that's what I'd been aiming for when I built him...
I'll grant that early access to Mounted Skirmisher and Fate's Favored might get erratad some day. If I was an errata-er I'd probably shift Sacred Tattoo to a racial bonus, and add Mounter Skirmisher to the monk's level 10+ Bonus Feat list for the Sohei (puts it in line with when Barbarians get pounce). Then again, if I was writing Sohei errata, I'd also make it Unchained Monk compatible.
Yeah, Mounted Skirmisher at level 10 I'd allow - it's the same level Rangers get it on Combat Style feats.
Anyway, I'm curious about how it would compare to an Unchained mounted Monk...
cablop, I think you're getting too hung up on minor things. The Will save is not a big deal. The monk is still good at resisting mind-affecting effects and have tons of abilities that thwart them.
Bestow curse seems like an obvious counter to that. They are just mecromancy. There are plenty of non-mind affecting will saves. And like many will saves, a lot are rahter scary.
And I haven't read every single inch of unmonk- isn't the bonus just a +2? At least prior to level 19 (which shouldn't be counted, since it is not part of mot campaigns, and you still have to survive most of your career without getting your soul destroyed by a demi lich before getting to that level).
Unless your Str-based unchained monks typically begin with 18 Wisdom, the sohei with the chain shirt is going to have a higher AC. What's more, the sohei can get by with lower wisdom, since they have good will saves and less ki-consuming abilities. This will allow them to spend more of their point-buy on other secondary stats like dexterity, which in turn improves their AC.Maybe - but at the cost of having good defenses. A Str sohei with a chain shirt has a rather mediocre AC.Even in a straight brawl - the Sohei makes a better Dex monk once they get Weapon Training and grab some Gloves of Dueling - though it's worse at low levels. A Umonk is probably a better Str monk beatstick with the 1.5x STR damage with a TH weapon.A brawling chain shirt goes a long way toward putting a Str-based sohei on the same level as a Str-based unchained monk.
Well, better starting AC while being STR based. They don't have to turtle up (dex/wis, no str) in order to not be a sitting duck.
An unarmored monk eventually over takes them with two boostable stats to AC, AC enhancement, and scaling bonus to AC.
But since we are talking a ton of magical items, the sohei should have grabbed brawling armor and gloves of dueling. That means even their standard action attacks are better bonus to hit than Unmonk, and their flurries can hit +27- high enough that they are competing with fighters for high attack bonus. Meanwhile, unmonk is stuck with only full BAB- something that people complain about cavalier about.
Even if the second hit of their flurry is at BAB-7, it may be just as accurate as the unmonk's first hit. So you can see why I am not psyched about unmonk's new flurry.
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Well, better starting AC while being STR based. They don't have to turtle up (dex/wis, no str) in order to not be a sitting duck.An unarmored monk eventually over takes them with two boostable stats to AC, AC enhancement, and scaling bonus to AC.
It's not 'eventually'. Again - as I said above - any unarmored monk worth their salt will get access to Mage Armor. The sohei with a chain shirt will NEVER have a better AC than an unarmored monk who has at least a 14 WIS at level 1 unless the unarmored monk can't get access to Mage Armor somehow. (it's not difficult to get)
Keep in mind Ascetic Style + Form allow the use of the Temple Sword with Stunning Fist, with Flying Kick and with extra attacks from Ki Pool. Plus, it benefits from the damage reduction bypassing.
Why Temple Sword and not Sansetsukon (or Seven-Branched Sword)?
Keep in mind Ascetic Style + Form allow the use of the Temple Sword with Stunning Fist, with Flying Kick and with extra attacks from Ki Pool. Plus, it benefits from the damage reduction bypassing.Why Temple Sword and not Sansetsukon (or Seven-Branched Sword)?
My guess is that it is because Sansetsukon has a very particular flavor (I'm over simplifying it, but it is basically a nunchuck with a 3rd part tied on), and 19-20/x2 is often more valued than 20/x3 for the branched sword.
Not to say that the temple sword is that familiar, but some designs can be more kukri/falcata esque. Those are fairly well accepted aesthetically.
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Keep in mind Ascetic Style + Form allow the use of the Temple Sword with Stunning Fist, with Flying Kick and with extra attacks from Ki Pool. Plus, it benefits from the damage reduction bypassing.Why Temple Sword and not Sansetsukon (or Seven-Branched Sword)?
He specifically said Li Mu Bai so that's edged weapon where I come from :P