The weakest sides of the Unchained Monk... or is it just my impression?


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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Hmmm. I still dislike the poor will save of the UMonk. I can accept that build is good. But i still think a Good Will save would boost that Will save to 22 instead of just 17. The fact you can get a decent will save doesn't make the poor will save a good thing on the UMonk class, it is still a weak point, like saying the fortitude save of the Wizard is a weak side of that class, you can workaround it, but it is a weak aspect of that class no matter what.

In other words, i think if we can only have two good saves, then the UMonk must have Reflex and Will. More Dex boost the Reflex save up, more Wis boost the Will up, same investments in both stats and both saves remain the same.

Anyway. I think i got a few final answers to my thread:


  • Abilities moved behind the ki pool were a good decision instead of a bad one, yes, in those aspects the UMonk is weaker than the CMonk, but that fits thematically.
  • I'm not the only one thinking the poor Will save is a good idea. Reasons are, it just doesn't feel ok, it removes the willpower as a result of training from the equation, it removes some of the uniqueness of the monk, etc.
  • Some people believe that a compensable weakness is not an issue. Some other believe it is. We cannot reach a conclusion here. It is a matter of opinions and opinions are not facts. Going to facts, if y is the will save of the UMonk and x the save of the CMonk we have y < x always; for me that is a weakness for others it is a non-issue.
  • Some people are afraid of high numbers. It is one of the arguments in favor of a poor will save, it keeps the numbers away from those horribly insane high numbers. I'm not afraid of those high numbers.
  • Some people points to the UMonk being another class, not an improvement of the Monk, but another class that can fill its niche. I agree.
  • Some people says the UMonk is a good class, but it is not really a fantasy monk, it just have the word monk in its name. I agree with that. I also agree.
  • Some people says the UMonk is an upgrade of the CMonk. I disagree.
  • Some people says the UMonk is an sidegrade of the CMonk. I agree.
  • Some people says the UMonk is an downgrade of the CMonk. I disagree.
  • Some people says the UMonk could be improved with archetypes. I'd like to see them.
  • Would i use that class for PCs or NPCs? Yes, but not to make fantasy monks, for that i'd use the CMonk. But i'd use it for mystical martial artists. For pure martial artists i'd use the Brawler.


Quote:
Some people believe that a compensable weakness is not an issue. Some other believe it is. We cannot reach a conclusion here. It is a matter of opinions and opinions are not facts. Going to facts, if y is the will save of the UMonk and x the save of the CMonk we have y < x always; for me that is a weakness for others it is a non-issue.

This is not mathematically nor empirically sound. I just posted a build with Will equal in both cases.

This is like saying that Monks have bad AC because they have no armor.

This is like saying Wizards are easy to kill because they have no armor proficiency and 1d6 hit dice.

This is like saying Barbarians are easy to hit with spells because they have low Will saves.

This is like saying Witches have few skill ranks because they only have 2+INT per level.

A character's abilities are not their class chassis. A character's abilities are their class chassis + the potential in that chassis.

The UnMonk has a bad Will save in its chassis. Yes. This is a fact.
But it is also a fact that in actual play that save is more than generously compensated. Note the build I posted to Rhedyn. Not you, cablop, you seem to have your mind set on some idea of the Monk which is widely different than the standard CRB or UnMonk.

But CRB vs. UnMonk? UnMonk is a straight upgrade in all except a couple of minor ways (reliance on unarmed strikes and Diamond Body being active).

Quote:
Some people are afraid of high numbers. It is one of the arguments in favor of a poor will save, it keeps the numbers away from those horribly insane high numbers. I'm not afraid of those high numbers.

Is this a stump speech or something?

I could say "some people are afraid of building their characters and what a prepackaged deal with everything they need". You can turn any preference into a fear if you phrase it that way.

Anyway my comments are:

- Optimal UnMonk/Monk builds will have the same Will saves in practice. I just proved it with Rhedyn's build compared to mine. The only single difference is that the Monk has the possibility to get Iron Will in exchange for Weapon Focus and the UnMonk viceversa. Other than that, It goes to prove that 1d10 HD and full BAB with no penalty on Flurry compensate for low Will.

- Any arguments about low Will base save are emotional, not practical. Same damn save and more options and better qualification for feats thanks to full BAB and Style Strikes. Plus Ki Powers add customization to the class beyond feats.

- The only valid complaints about the UnMonk vis-a-vis the Monk are: a) too much focus on unarmed strikes; b) diamond body downgrade. Other than that...

- UnMonk is a full upgrade to the Monk. The Will save thing is a myth as proven time and time again with different builds here. Everything else other than Diamond Body is a buff.

- Granted: the Monk has the ability to purposely gimp itself to have a much better Will save than the UnMonk. Sure, the Monk has the ability to make a high WIS build with Iron Will and Indomitable Faith and rock a massive Will save. That'd make the build a gimmick with no in-game effectiveness though. A build that intends to be enjoyable and has the ability to connect hits won't have the luxury to do that.

In summation: it's just your impression, cablop.


Secret Wizard wrote:
- The only valid complaints about the UnMonk vis-a-vis the Monk are: a) too much focus on unarmed strikes; b) diamond body downgrade. Other than that...

I don't know about you, but I see incompatibility with chained monk archetypes as a very valid complaint. Unchained monks are great, but unchained monks with the best monk archetypes would be even better.


Secret Wizard wrote:
- The only valid complaints about the UnMonk vis-a-vis the Monk are: a) too much focus on unarmed strikes; b) diamond body downgrade. Other than that...

Ascetic style->Form + Martial Focus->weapon style mastery can turn you into a full time weapon monk.

The first half is to bring your weapons up to speed. the second part is so you can swing with dragon ferocity really really hard.


Avoron wrote:
Unchained monks are great, but unchained monks with the best monk archetypes would be even better.

Hm, unchained Sohei with Ascetic Style, Sansetsukon, and Brawling armor... *wipes drool off his mouth*

Sovereign Court

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Avoron wrote:
Secret Wizard wrote:
- The only valid complaints about the UnMonk vis-a-vis the Monk are: a) too much focus on unarmed strikes; b) diamond body downgrade. Other than that...
I don't know about you, but I see incompatibility with chained monk archetypes as a very valid complaint. Unchained monks are great, but unchained monks with the best monk archetypes would be even better.

That's because the classes are far too different. For example - some chained monk archetypes give up flurry for some pretty awesome stuff. That would be MUCH less of a sacrifice for an unchained monk since he has full BAB all of the time instead of a pseudo full BAB with flurry... which those archetypes give up and have regular mid BAB.

Besides - some of the chained monk archetypes obviously know that their chassis is a bit sub-par and are willing to be pretty blatantly better than what they give up. The Umonk is a much more potent base chassis.


Secret Wizard wrote:
In summation: it's just your impression, cablop.

Ok. I know i'm biased to the will good save for the monks. But i still think it is not just my impression.

So, to be fair, and to not to do it myself, cause i'm biased: Please, Secret Wizard, make two builds for both classes, with exactly the same ability scores and feats, the same, not equivalent, and we use those two to compare both classes. I think lvl 12 as the last build you made is ok. I'm asking that, because you posted too many builds before so it is a nightmare to compare all. Just two builds with exactly the same scores and exactly the same feats and we can compare them. Of course, be fair, don't select feats that only benefit UMonk, feats that could benefit both classes and we can compare and see what class is better for what with the same build, except for the "chasis".

Shadow Lodge

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Secret Wizard wrote:
- Optimal UnMonk/Monk builds will have the same Will saves in practice. I just proved it with Rhedyn's build compared to mine. The only single difference is that the Monk has the possibility to get Iron Will in exchange for Weapon Focus and the UnMonk viceversa. Other than that, It goes to prove that 1d10 HD and full BAB with no penalty on Flurry compensate for low Will.

Key word here is optimal builds.

I am concerned with the non-optimal ones.

I don't think you should have to build optimally in order to achieve the thematic role of your class.


So lets talk damage. For the purposes of this build, I'll be using a far more specialized stat array. I'll be using dragon style, but as multiple people have disagreed with me, I'll assume power attack with dragon ferocity only has a -1/+2 ratio. And I'll be building how I prefer to build, which is low-ac, which with high hp is only a problem if you're surrounded by enemies, or routinely taking full attacks. We'll build using PFS rules, to the best I know them, to elimate random chance in rolls.

Bigguy McPunchyou
LN Human Unchained Monk 12
Init +0, Senses: Perception +14

=======
Defense
=======

AC - 15, Touch 15, Flat 10
HP - 148
Fort +16, Reflex +12, Will +11 (+13 vs mind-effecting)

=======
Offense
=======

Speed - 70 ft.
Melee Flurry - Unarmed Strike +3 +24/+24/+19/+14 (2d6+15(+19 first attack)/19-20)
Melee Flurry w/ki & elbow smash - Unarmed Strike +3 +24/+24/+24/+19/+19/+14 (2d6+15(+19 first attack)/19-20)

==========
Statistics
==========

Str 27, Dex 10, Con 18, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 8

Feats: Power Attack, Bonus: Deflect Arrows, Bonus: Improved Grapple Dragon Style, Dragon Ferocity, Bonus: Improved Trip, Weapon Focus, Toughness, Bonus: Improved Critical, Dazing Assault

Style Strikes: Flying Kick, Elbow Smash

Gear: Amulet of Mighty Blows +3, Belt of Giant Strength +6, Cloak of Resistance +4, Headband of Inspired Wisdom +2, Wand of Cure Light Wounds, Sleeves of Many Garments, Ioun Torch, Potion of Blood Rage, 575 Gold.

Traits: Indomitable Faith, Honored Fist of the Society

With all the key points of the build out of the way, lets talk what you can do with this. First off, I know the first complaint: The AC is way too low! But lets check out if it functionally is. A CR 12 creature has an average AC of 27, and an average HP of 160.

Our monk, with just the flanking bonus of another melee, and no buffs involved, hit 3 times for 95% hit chance at his highest CR. Assuming just the first three hit with no crits, we've dealt an average of 26+22+22. Thats 70 damage. Or near half the health of an equal CR creature. And thats assuming a pounce, with one ki point, and no iteratives, and no power attack. Surely, though, we're going to get wrecked by the incoming flurry, right? Wrong. The high damage of a CR 12 creature averages around 55 A bit over a third, but nowhere near half our health. We can stomach three such flurries.

But wait, the BBEG showed up! He's CR 15, and ready to kill us! He wins initiative, and has a pounce! He flurries us for half our health! Or at least, he tries to. See, the damage of creatures per cr only scales +3-5 every cr until the latest levels. Between our con, favored bonus, toughness and 6/hp a level? We get 12. Our durability outscales the enemies to the point we can't possibly be bursted down. His average high damage, 70, is actually unlikely to exceed half our health. Which, again, means we can take up to three of his flurries before dropping. He feasibly can, but it requires jumping into the middle of the party and flurrying us until we die. for three turns. Turns he is ignoring my party. Turns he isn't killing my wizard, or my squishies. Turns the rest of the party can go to town.

Now its time for return fire. The fighter/barbarian/rogue/anything else, due to having a higher initiative than me, flanks him. Monk activates haste as a free action through his boots, gaining an additional attack and +1 to his attacks. With a single buff, and no help from the casters, I have an 85% chance to hit without power attack. Since he's on top of me? I don't have to pounce. Which means I can elbow smash. Average AC of 30, 220 health on the BBEG. I unleash, spending a ki, and with +27/+27/+27/+22/+22/+17. Being entirely reasonable, lets assume I hit 4, and don't crit once. That is 26+22+22+22. 92 damage. Or, you know, over 40% of the BBEG's health. Without power attack. Assuming a crit, we can go even higher. With this build? We can feasibly solo a boss 3 CR above us. Not likely, but he'll be hurting a lot when we're dead. With a party? Its barely a challenge.

This build has weaknesses. But they're weaknesses we'd apply to any two-handing warrior, or primary damage dealer, or anyone not building full tank: Being surrounded by a ton of mooks, alone. Being flanked by two or three high-damage enemies. Our saves against the BBEG only get as high as about 60% for things like will. And like any melee class, a trip-based reach weapon user can juggle us all day. This is not the perfect well-rounded class. This is something better. The Unchained Monk is the ultimate damage dealer.

And while Secret's build is good, he's simply wrong about weapon monks outpacing unarmed in damage. While a weapon can achieve a higher enhancement bonus for equal gold compared to an amulet, its only at best 1 enhancement bonus higher. Meanwhile, a weapon-user will always have a lower weapon die, even using ascetic style. And using ascetic style to flurry does NOT allow you access to Elbow smash, which explicitly can only follow up on a punch, not just an unarmed strike. So thats an iterative gone. Furthermore, an ascetic style user can't charge through squares that contain allies, or run through difficult terrain. An unarmed monk is simply more mobile, and higher damage, for less investment than an armed monk. About the only advantage I can see is a higher crit range on weapons, but honestly? If you need to fish on a flurry, you're building him wrong. Especially since there are not 18-20 OR x4 weapons that are monk weapons.

In short: Deal with your problems like a man. By jumping on top of them and proceeding to beat them down until one of you is dead.


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Weirdo wrote:


I don't think you should have to build optimally in order to achieve the thematic role of your class.

Weirdo's confirmed.

Rogues are awful.


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Secret Wizard wrote:
Quote:
Some people believe that a compensable weakness is not an issue. Some other believe it is. We cannot reach a conclusion here. It is a matter of opinions and opinions are not facts. Going to facts, if y is the will save of the UMonk and x the save of the CMonk we have y < x always; for me that is a weakness for others it is a non-issue.
This is not mathematically nor empirically sound. I just posted a build with Will equal in both cases.

If y and x represent the base Will save of UnMonk and Monk respectively, it is quite sound. That you are able to achieve parity by way of feats, traits, and additional attribute investment would be:

y+z = x

The problem is that those feats, traits and attribute investments are equally available to the Monk, which means:
y+z < x+z

I don't care much about the debate, but I don't like it when people misrepresent statistics. Unlike opinions, maths is objectively true or false.


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^Couldn't have said it better myself.


Note: I use my selfmade Excel based DPR calculator. Every attack has a chance to hit and crit, and the averages for every attack are added for the total average Damage Per Round (DPR).

I don't see how you get a +24 on your attacks. You forgot the 2nd extra attack from flurry, though. 12(BAB)+8(Str)+3(Amulet)+1(WFocus)+2(Flanking)-4(PowAtt)=22
Using that, your average DPR agains an average CR12 monster (i.e. 27AC) ist 110.8 with just Flurry, 137.2 with Ki Strike added and 155.3 with Elbow Smash added.

Now, let's assume the exact same Monk, only with Ascetik Style and Ascetic Form instead of the Dragon feats. My weapon of choise is a +4 Sansetsukon (18-20/x2 with Imp Critical) - which costs 4k less than a +3 amulet. I have a +1 on all attack rolls, Ascetic Style allows me to me use my UAS damage*, Ascetic Form allows me to use Elbow Smash (style strike is explictly mentioned).

My average DPR is 140.9/175.1/199.2

*If I use the normal weapon damage (i.e. using Ascetic only as intended), my average DPR is 134.8/167.6/190.7

The difference in damage comes from higher PA damage (+4 per hit, that's the same as the bonus from the Dragon feats, only on every attack and not just the first). The higher crit range almost exactly negates the lower weapon damage for the 2nd run, btw. Even without elbow strike, I still come out on top.


I still don't get why when i say "I think one of the UMonk weaknesses is a low will save" people show me how much damage the UMonk can deal (another topic) to "prove" the poor Will save of the monk is not a weak spot of the class...

I still don't get it...


Derklord wrote:

EDIT: WE ARE BOTH MISSING THE EXTRA FLURRY ATTACK AT LVL11. LET ME EDIT MY NUMBERS.

Note: I use my selfmade Excel based DPR calculator. Every attack has a chance to hit and crit, and the averages for every attack are added for the total average Damage Per Round (DPR).

I don't see how you get a +24 on your attacks. 12(BAB)+8(Str)+3(Amulet)+1(WFocus)+2(Flanking)-4(PowAtt)=22
Using that, your average DPR agains an average CR12 monster (i.e. 27AC) ist 84.4 with just Flurry, 110.8 with Ki Strike added and 128.9 with Elbow Smash added.

Now, let's assume the exact same Monk, only with Ascetik Style and Ascetic Form instead of the Dragon feats. My weapon of choise is a +4 Sansetsukon (18-20/x2 with Imp Critical) - which costs 4k less than a +3 amulet. I have a +1 on all attack rolls, Ascetic Style allows me to me use my UAS damage*, Ascetic Form allows me to use Elbow Smash (style strike is explictly mentioned).

My average DPR is 106.7/140.9/165.0

*If I use the normal weapon damage (i.e. using Ascetic only as intended), my average DPR is 102.1/134.8/158.0

The difference in damage comes from higher PA damage (+4 per hit, that's the same as the bonus from the Dragon feats, only on every attack and not just the first). The higher crit range almost exactly negates the lower weapon damage for the 2nd run, btw. Even without elbow strike, I still come out on top.

Simple. I'm not power attacking in the example. As noted, I have a base of 24. Added with flanking, I have a 95% chance to hit an AC of 27. Since I only add +8 damage to each strike with the reduced power attack, risking misses against high AC opponents will likely reduce my damage. Power attack if more of an option to instantly disintegrate a mob with less cr that my level, where I can afford to lower my accuracy a bit. Futhermore, ascetic strike doesn't let you use your unarmed damage as base. It lets you use your monk level -4. Thats a reduction in base dice. I won't knock its the INTENT that Ascetic Form allows you to use a weapon with style strikes. Unfortunately, as they are currently written, most style strikes necessitate a specific body part, not just an unarmed strike. Even using Ascetic Form, a elbow smash requires a follow up on a punch. Not an unarmed strike. A punch. In fact, since all of them mention specific body parts, Ascetic Form wouldn't actually qualify you for any of them, despite explicitly calling style strike out. Again, I would let you do it at my table, but I'm just pointing it out.


Secret Wizard wrote:
Quote:
Some people believe that a compensable weakness is not an issue. Some other believe it is. We cannot reach a conclusion here. It is a matter of opinions and opinions are not facts. Going to facts, if y is the will save of the UMonk and x the save of the CMonk we have y < x always; for me that is a weakness for others it is a non-issue.
This is not mathematically nor empirically sound. I just posted a build with Will equal in both cases.

Secret Wizard, math is math, it does not need to be sound. It is true.

By still arguing about a math fact, you only show you are trying to ignore the truth. Bad news, you cannot change math just because.

I'm telling you "here i can get a nice hamburger with 5 bucks", you tell me "there you can get the same hamburger for 8 bucks" (3 more), then i tell you "oh man! i'm trying to save those extra 3 to get fries with my order", and then you tell me "oh, you are being too emotional about your hamburger! don't you realize they have a bigger milkshake there?" Oh My Gosh! Am i even asking about milkshake? And you keep telling me they are right at charging more for the hamburger because they serve a bigger milkshake!

(Make hamburger = will save, the 3 extra bucks = the feat slot i want to save for other use, fries = the feat i want to buy with those 3 bucks, milkshake = the BAB i'm not worrying about)

Math is math, no matter if you talk about pure numbers, stocks, game mechanics or fast food.

A better combo is the one i want with extra milkshake for the same price (even if i didn't asked for it), if not, then it is a different combo.

Go compare the Rogue with the Unchained Rogue. The U Rogue is the same Rogue with FREE extras. Is to be too emotional to ask for the same for the monk too?


Maybe the difference of opinions between Secret Wizard and me is Secret Wizard wants for the U Monk to be equivalent to the older one, but easier to play, and i expected for it to be a boost on the existing monk, like the U rogue is to the rogue, because i do believe some non caster classes do precise an improvement in a game that gives too much to casters at high levels.

As a side note, with the other comments i was getting here, i am starting to think the UBarbarian is a sidegrade too and not an upgrade. But i have to wait and see it for myself before making me an idea.

Maybe i'm dissappointed of the change in the will save of the monk because it doesn't really reduce the disparity of the class against caster classes.

Maybe i don't like Secret Wizard build answers because the good will saves of his builds are the result of the builds and his skills making them rather than the class per se. Those builds don't prove the class is good at will saves, those builds prove Secret Wizard is a good one at making strong builds against odds. In fact, i would ask Secret Wizard for advice about making unexpected strong NPCs for my players if i want to make a campaign really hard for them.


CryntheCrow wrote:
Simple. I'm not power attacking in the example. As noted, I have a base of 24.

Ah, my mistake. I kinda missed the forest for the trees, there.

Power Attack does increase your average DPR against AC27, though: Without PA, your DPR drops to 103.4/126.4/144.5

CryntheCrow wrote:
Futhermore, ascetic strike doesn't let you use your unarmed damage as base. It lets you use your monk level -4. Thats a reduction in base dice. I won't knock its the INTENT that Ascetic Form allows...

Ascetic Form explicitly mentions style strike, therefore Specific Beats General (a class feature being more general than a singular feat).

I might compare Jabbing Style chain tomorrow, but I have to programm that into the spreadsheet, first. I think I need to calculate that with a Binomial distribution or something (that's what I used for my eidolon's rend). But that's not something my brain likes to do after midnight.


Derklord wrote:
CryntheCrow wrote:
Simple. I'm not power attacking in the example. As noted, I have a base of 24.

Ah, my mistake. I kinda missed the forest for the trees, there.

Power Attack does increase your average DPR against AC27, though: Without PA, your DPR drops to 103.4/126.4/144.5

CryntheCrow wrote:
Futhermore, ascetic strike doesn't let you use your unarmed damage as base. It lets you use your monk level -4. Thats a reduction in base dice. I won't knock its the INTENT that Ascetic Form allows...

Ascetic Form explicitly mentions style strike, therefore Specific Beats General (a class feature being more general than a singular feat).

I might compare Jabbing Style chain tomorrow, but I have to programm that into the spreadsheet, first. I think I need to calculate that with a Binomial distribution or something (that's what I used for my eidolon's rend). But that's not something my brain likes to do after midnight.

Sure thing. I much prefer consistency in damage, and power attack gives it a much higher potential to spread, even if the average does go up. Appreciate the calculations. On thing to keep in mind is that the ability to ignore difficult terrain is a massive benefit of Dragon Style. The weaker power attack certainly hurts, though.

Edit: Also, a huge weakness of using a weapon with this build is it gains a pretty massive weakness to being disarmed. While your strength lets you resist a fair bit with a strong CMB, when you're killing everything the DM throws at you, he might decide to send in a rogue with weapon snatcher.


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Secret Wizard wrote:
Rhedyn wrote:

A monk

You can't say that Umonk does not have a worst will save. Normal monks have just as much reason to pump wis as a umonk.

I don't like Umonk. The passive monk defenses are my draw to the class. Those got removed via lower saves and gating abilities behind ki.

Umonk is not a bad class, it's just not anything I want.

Ok. I hope you can read my post in full:

Here's an UnMonk.

Notes:

1. Even though I don't like Dragon's Roar or Power Attack, I took the exact same feats as you did to imitate your build.

2. I didn't get a +3 Amulet or Weapon Focus (opting for a +2 Amulet and Iron Will). This still lands me on +20 for accuracy because the UnMonk doesn't take -2 to attacks while flurrying. So it effectively compensates for Weapon Focus and the ability to use Elemental Fury more than compensates for the loss of +1 damage. Also even without Elemental Fury there's the fact that I can Flying Kick and Elbow Smash. +20/+20/+20/+15/+15/+10 is probably +1 damage higher in output than +20/+20/+15/+15/+10/+10. Probably. And Flying Kick can increase output significantly against moving targets or when switching.

3. Not needing Amulets of Fists +3 to match your dude allows me to buy a Headband of Wisdom +4. Them's the breaks. I also had 10k left so I bought a Jingasa. That left me with 5k I left untouched.

4. I have less base CON and I don't use my favored class bonus on HP, but I have the same HP (1d10 hitdice, max HP calculated using the same method you did). I can freely use my favored class bonus on Ki and take 12 CON. That still nets me +3 Ki. This means that those "gated" abilities are easier to use. Not to mention you can custom tailor your ki abilities to fit your party (if you have a Druid, ignore Diamond Body and get something like Diamond Mind for example.)

5. I didn't note down Dragon Style/Still Mind benefits to saves or damage, but they should be the same...

Your monk has the same to hit? Wow OK I really can ignore umonk. That to hit is not good enough to be considered good. Even though you do more damage, offense is a weak side of your character and you had to optimise for defenses. Garbage.

Maybe if you didn't do backflips to reach a will save far higher than needed on a weak willed character, you could have made something that wasn't just worse than a ranger.


The UMonk is a class that COULD or COULD NOT have all good saves.

That seems as wrong to me as the Fighter being a class that could or could not have a ton of feats or a ranger that could or could not have a favored enemy or an investigator that could or could not have inspiration or a witch that could or could not have hexes etc. That is not having an iconic feature that should only not be there in a significantly reworked archetype.

cablop. The CMonk is just as focused on combat as the UMonk.


Azih wrote:

The UMonk is a class that COULD or COULD NOT have all good saves.

That seems as wrong to me as the Fighter being a class that could or could not have a ton of feats or a ranger that could or could not have a favored enemy or an investigator that could or could not have inspiration or a witch that could or could not have hexes etc. That is not having an iconic feature that should only not be there in a significantly reworked archetype.

I don't really get your point. I mean, what you say is clear, but i don't know if it is good for you that the UMonk doesn't have a good will save or you think it is bad for it to not to have that iconic feature of all good saves.

Azih wrote:
cablop. The CMonk is just as focused on combat as the UMonk.

If it was an archetype, i'd feel it right. But unchained classes are reboots of the core classes. Or at least they try to. The URogue is a nice example.

Anyway, the CRB Monk is not as focused in combat as the U Monk. Having a low BAB and less HP and penalties when flurrying they're not the right class for pure combat, but they're good enough to give support. They can help fighters flank, they keep rogues at bay, they became tanks with some builds, they are harder to take down by casters (until now), they distracted the enemy, were good for rescuing, etc.

Shadow Lodge

cablop wrote:
As a side note, with the other comments i was getting here, i am starting to think the UBarbarian is a sidegrade too and not an upgrade. But i have to wait and see it for myself before making me an idea.

The UBarbarian is supposed to be a sidegrade, because the barbarian's overall power level was fine. They just wanted to make some tweaks, like preventing the barbarian from dying when they stop raging and their temporary HP goes away, and getting rid of the "once per rage" powers that encouraged rage cycling.


I admit that removing immunity to poison is a good move, cause thematically it is not really monkish. In fantasy monks are killed with poison by coward foes when those dastards cannot defeat the monks in a fair fight.

Poison immunity is something i'd expect from an alchemist or maybe a dwarf monk archetype. But not on normal monks.


Continuing with the side note.

Weirdo wrote:
cablop wrote:
As a side note, with the other comments i was getting here, i am starting to think the UBarbarian is a sidegrade too and not an upgrade. But i have to wait and see it for myself before making me an idea.
The UBarbarian is supposed to be a sidegrade, because the barbarian's overall power level was fine. They just wanted to make some tweaks, like preventing the barbarian from dying when they stop raging and their temporary HP goes away, and getting rid of the "once per rage" powers that encouraged rage cycling.

A quick review of both classes let me think it is a very very small upgrade; cause danger sense is more useful than trap sense. It is more a tweak and polish thing.

What i really love to see is an Unchained Fighter class.


cablop wrote:

Continuing with the side note.

Weirdo wrote:
cablop wrote:
As a side note, with the other comments i was getting here, i am starting to think the UBarbarian is a sidegrade too and not an upgrade. But i have to wait and see it for myself before making me an idea.
The UBarbarian is supposed to be a sidegrade, because the barbarian's overall power level was fine. They just wanted to make some tweaks, like preventing the barbarian from dying when they stop raging and their temporary HP goes away, and getting rid of the "once per rage" powers that encouraged rage cycling.

A quick review of both classes let me think it is a very very small upgrade; cause danger sense is more useful than trap sense. It is more a tweak and polish thing.

What i really love to see is an Unchained Fighter class.

It's a definite side grade. Some rage powers were improved or made into 'rage stances' but rage cycling still gave you more bang for the buck. They also stealth nerfed a few of the more OP rage powers. Also new rage scales better with bows but worse with two handing a big weapon. I dislike it because it has a higher floor, which barbies didn't really need you were really bad at paying attention, overextend your hitpoints while raging and died and a lower ceiling because the powers that were turned into rage stances and last all rage give smaller numbers then cycling did and any lowered ceiling on something that has no 9th level spell casting annoys me.


Can we please put the will save discussion to rest? You're debating for multiple pages no with absolutly no result. Just stop it. None of you will persuade the other.

@Rhedyn: Does anyone say that UnMonk is an upgrade in every regard? The cMonk isn't removed from the game, so if you you want to build a team build with a cloudkill caster, you can still do it. For everything else, there's Master Card Unchained Monk.

CryntheCrow wrote:
I much prefer consistency in damage, and power attack gives it a much higher potential to spread, even if the average does go up.

The benefit from PA is indeed rather low, althout the large number of attacks helps reduce the spread.

I don't think the bonuses on charge that Dragon Style provides are that strong, considering that our damage sucks on a charge, anyway.
Disarming shouldn't be that much of a problem (unless your GM is mean) - monks have rather high CMD.
What the TH weapon build does lose is either Deflect Arrows, or the weapon bonuses (including better PA damage) on the AoO.

I'm not 100% sure whether my calculation is correct, but your monk with Jabbing Master (without Power Attack) does about 110.0/142.6/168.0 DPR.

cablop wrote:
As a side note, with the other comments i was getting here, i am starting to think the UBarbarian is a sidegrade too and not an upgrade. But i have to wait and see it for myself before making me an idea.

Significant downgrade at high optimization levels (no more rage cycling), significant upgrade at low optimization levels (no more random dying because you didn't know about the importance of Raging Vitality, and more inviting rage powers with the rage stances). For most barbarians, the main ingame effect is that you need a few less charges from your CLW wand after the fight.

I think it makes a more fun barbarian (less calculating every combat), and you can min/max it without fealing cheater-y.

Edit @ VargrBoartusk: "+2 bonus on melee attack rolls, melee damage rolls, thrown weapon damage rolls" - how do you make that work with bows?
@cablop: Isn't that what Weapon Master's Handbook did?


I say the Umonk is overall an upgrade. I have a hard time going back to core. Half-elf monk with racial FCB + to fast movement with flying kick is way to good. 15 feet at 5. 25 at 6. 35 at 9, and 40 at 10. Phew, that's a lot of flying and ki kicking.

The will saves are a bummer, but I think the unchained monk really fufills the niche of mobile fighter with a bevy of different attacks and abilities to fell different foes.

That said, they should have left the immunities and made fort bad.

How would you all feel if the Umonk got all medium saves? Capping out at 10 each. Then all their saves would still be pretty damn good. You'll have at least 14 in dex and con with a min of 15 in Wis when making the character anyways. A balanced stat spread and a balanced save progression. That would keep the monks old unique feature of all solid saves while being even more unique, but not have too much (Or something along those lines. I just assume that was the rationale) Just a thought.


I don't think the elf fcb does anything to your flying kick


Chess Pwn wrote:
I don't think the elf fcb does anything to your flying kick
Quote:
Add +1 to the monk’s base speed. In combat this option has no effect unless the monk has selected it five times (or another increment of five). This bonus stacks with the monk’s fast movement class feature and applies under the same conditions as that feature.


Derklord wrote:


Edit @ VargrBoartusk: "+2 bonus on melee attack rolls, melee damage rolls, thrown weapon damage rolls" - how...

Don't the static stance rage stance powers just buff damage and/or accuracy? I don't have access to the book right this second but I was pretty sure they weren't melee specific. Those kinds of numbers tend to better apply to ranged combats ten billion arrows philosophy.. more attacks thrown the more uses you get from those smaller bonuses adding up.

I admit I could be mistaken on that though.


Right stacks, not increases. And you lose the move speed if wearing armor or carrying a medium or heavy load. Since flying kick travels your fast movement bonus, which isn't changed by your fcb, you don't get to fly more with your kicks


VargrBoartusk wrote:
Derklord wrote:


Edit @ VargrBoartusk: "+2 bonus on melee attack rolls, melee damage rolls, thrown weapon damage rolls" - how...

Don't the static stance rage stance powers just buff damage and/or accuracy? I don't have access to the book right this second but I was pretty sure they weren't melee specific. Those kinds of numbers tend to better apply to ranged combats ten billion arrows philosophy.. more attacks thrown the more uses you get from those smaller bonuses adding up.

I admit I could be mistaken on that though.

Accurate Stance (Ex): The barbarian can focus her strikes. She gains a +1 competence bonus on melee attack rolls and thrown weapon attack rolls. This bonus increases by 1 for every 4 levels the barbarian has. This is a stance rage power.

They get bonus to thrown, you need to go reckless abandon to get all attack rolls, but then you're back to normal barb does it better


Chess Pwn wrote:
Right stacks, not increases. And you lose the move speed if wearing armor or carrying a medium or heavy load. Since flying kick travels your fast movement bonus, which isn't changed by your fcb, you don't get to fly more with your kicks

Wasn't talking about armor, and stacking will increase depending on the context, but I see your point. I always thought it meant it increases the movement of things like spider step when saying it applies in the same conditions as fast movement, since you can't do s*** when weighed down regardless. There was even a topic discussing this.

Add it to the pile of unclear, confusing monk things inevitably followed by disappointment, I guess.
:/


VargrBoartusk wrote:
It's a definite side grade. Some rage powers were improved or made into 'rage stances' but rage cycling still gave you more bang for the buck. They also stealth nerfed a few of the more OP rage powers. Also new rage scales better with bows but worse with two handing a big weapon. I dislike it because it has a higher floor, which barbies didn't really need you were really bad at paying attention, overextend your hitpoints while raging and died and a lower ceiling because the powers that were turned into rage stances and last all rage give smaller numbers then cycling did and any lowered ceiling on something that has no 9th level spell casting annoys me.

I think the thing that irked me most about the UBarb was how they hit a lot of best supernatural utility options hard with the nerf-bat. All the options for in-class flight got taken away, and spell sunder went from a great anti-magic utility ability to an unreliable power that can only really be used to strip buffs off enemies.


Unchained Monk: Very much an upgrade imo.

Unchained Rogue: Stronger than what you can do with just core, but altogether weaker than a normal rogue if you know what you're doing.

Unchained Barbarian: Straight downgrade. Besides rage cycling, it also lost access to furious weapons, as well as some of the best rage powers. Core Barb's Strength Surge might has well have been an 'I win' button for any maneuver you could possibly want, and the stances as move actions go completely against the flavor of a raging mass of power. "Hold on guys, let me FOCUS MY ANGER INTO A STRICTLY DEFINED PURPOSE." Easily the worst.

Liberty's Edge

CryntheCrow wrote:
Unchained Monk: Very much an upgrade imo.

Agreed.

CryntheCrow wrote:
Unchained Rogue: Stronger than what you can do with just core, but altogether weaker than a normal rogue if you know what you're doing.

Wait, what? What exactly does a non-unchained Rogue get that an Unchained one doesn't? Because it can still grab literally all the archetypes the corebook version can.

CryntheCrow wrote:
Unchained Barbarian: Straight downgrade. Besides rage cycling, it also lost access to furious weapons, as well as some of the best rage powers. Core Barb's Strength Surge might has well have been an 'I win' button for any maneuver you could possibly want, and the stances as move actions go completely against the flavor of a raging mass of power. "Hold on guys, let me FOCUS MY ANGER INTO A STRICTLY DEFINED PURPOSE." Easily the worst.

Furious weapons still work fine. Why wouldn't they?


Deadmanwalking wrote:


CryntheCrow wrote:
Unchained Barbarian: Straight downgrade. Besides rage cycling, it also lost access to furious weapons, as well as some of the best rage powers. Core Barb's Strength Surge might has well have been an 'I win' button for any maneuver you could possibly want, and the stances as move actions go completely against the flavor of a raging mass of power. "Hold on guys, let me FOCUS MY ANGER INTO A STRICTLY DEFINED PURPOSE." Easily the worst.
Furious weapons still work fine. Why wouldn't they?

I suspect they meant Courageous, since it relies on Morale bonuses. I also suspect they didn't see the FAQ.

Community Manager

Removed some posts and their responses. Please remember that tone is hard to confirm through text, and please be civil with each other.

Sovereign Court

CryntheCrow wrote:

Unchained Monk: Very much an upgrade imo.

Unchained Rogue: Stronger than what you can do with just core, but altogether weaker than a normal rogue if you know what you're doing.

I think you got those 2 mixed up.

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