Why can't a commoner take 20?
@Tiny Coffee Golem
Shadowfax7 meant that "take 20" would be the only way for a NPC to achieve the DC of 20. A commoner can take 20 on any skill a PC can, but appraise is not one of the skills which one can take 20 on.
*****
@Shadowfax7
A DC 20 Appraise check determines the value of a common item. If you succeed by 5 or more, you also determine if the item has magic properties, although this success does not grant knowledge of the magic item’s abilities. If you fail the check by less than 5, you determine the price of that item to within 20% of its actual value. If you fail this check by 5 or more, the price is wildly inaccurate, subject to GM discretion. Particularly rare or exotic items might increase the DC of this check by 5 or more.
I don't think any commoners can expertly gauge the exact value of an item. They are probably fine with the +/- 20% which a 16 will get them.
I mean, can you imagine picking up an apple at the store and then determine the cost to the last cent? Commoners settle for "give or take".But then again, commoners suck. The ones who use Appraise are surely merchants with one or two ranks in the skill.
The reason for my asking is that "common" items are exactly what commoners should be able to appraise accurately on a daily basis as they barter and trade for these items as a necessity.
Not everyone barter and trade. Most of them just provide a service and pay the price asked. A farmer serving for a lord would have no idea how much his lord profits from him. His wife, on the other hand, would have some experience bartering.
A 50-year old housewife who has bought cabbages for 30 years would have a pretty good circumstance bonus for appraise checks on cabbages. But not hammers.Commoners are appraising with their experience about the specific items. No normal blacksmith would know how much wheat his hammers are worth, but he remembers what a good sword is worth.
Again, commoners suck.
Appraisal, remember, is not a common skill. That 20th level paladin of anyone but Abadar is probably not getting there by boosting Int, and sure as hell hasn't sunk many skill points into it. Aside from any personal experience ('Jim at the market always charges me 5 gold for a 10-pound iron ingot'), there's no reason for a commoner, or anyone else, to need it.
Unless that commoner for some reason is putting his or her skill ranks into that skill. Which a commoner..wouldn't do. You're thinking of experts, aristocrats, and ... well, PCs who care that much.
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Many of the rules are in place for the PC's and actually don't work well outside of that. This is one of them.
There are other rules that can break the game or gameworld if you look at the game as a simulation.
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Appraise is what you use to figure the value of something you haven't ever had to buy before.
If you've had to buy something, or seen it bought, you know how much you paid, and thus that numbers higher than that are likely wrong. That's not a Knowledge skill, it's basic memory (maybe an Int check but not a hard one to remember the rough range of price you paid).
But that kind of experience doesn't apply to even all common items. For example, who here knows how much a gun costs? Say, a 9 mm handgun? Without checking, mind you. What about a climbing harness?
I don't know either of those precisely off the top of my head, and I live in a place I could easily walk into a store and buy either. I have a rough idea of the price (maybe equivalent of a 16 on Appraise...I might have it trained with a rank and have Taken 10), but nothing definite...and I actually know something about guns and climbing, too.
As for how this will effect the world, it won't. Even on goods people don't buy every day. How many people have Appraise trained? I'd imagine quite a few, actually, as compared to some skills less useful in day-to-day life. Call it 1 in 10 people with a couple of ranks and a class skill bonus...enough to get a 16 when taking 10. And even rolling, 1 in 4 people will succeed at a rough valuation.
So...if setting up a stall in a market, if you try and gouge people more than 20% on price, many won't catch you on it, but over 1 in 3 will. If a full third of your customers start claiming you actually cheat people, you sir have a problem. Heck, even assuming nobody has Appraise, it's still 1 in 4 people who'll complain.
Now, selling goods at a higher than average mark-up (up to 20% above list) is much more workable, but then you run into the issue of competition, and others underselling you. So unless you have a monopoly, even that isn't too likely to persist...unless everyone is in on it.
And that 20% mark-up? That sounds pretty believable for people you think won't recognize the normal price. I mean, look at what tourists are in for in many places.
Don't forget that stuff people buy and sell professionally would be covered under their professional skill. There's no way a professional blacksmith need to use Appraise when he goes to buy iron from the local miner's guild - he knows that price because he's a professional and such a question would definitely be a "basic question" and therefore be a DC 10 which he can hit with a Take-10 roll with his eyes closed and one anvil tied behind his back...
But if that blacksmith wants to go buy a new pair of dress shoes, then appraise is the skill he'll use to try to not be cheated too badly.
Also, shopping around is a thing. If there are 4 shoemakers in the blacksmith's city, he might visit all 4 of them and see who has the lowest price. Or he might even ask around to friends and family to see what they've paid recently. Those tasks might fall under Knowledge (Local) or even Diplomacy (to gather information) - maybe not the blacksmith's best skills either, but at least he, and everyone else, has options beyond just randomly appraising and hoping he is better at it than the merchant.
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As for Deadmanwalking and DM_Blake.
When items are hand-crafted then you can't just drop into each "retailer" and compare. Items that are crafted aren't always directly comparable since the degree of quality isn't always obvious.
No Consumer Protection Agency and so forth to enforce a minimal degree of quality.
True.
For things that didn't need an Appraise check, just memory, I was thinking about buying, oh, apples or the like. Something where craftsmanship played no real part.
As for Deadmanwalking and DM_Blake.
When items are hand-crafted then you can't just drop into each "retailer" and compare. Items that are crafted aren't always directly comparable since the degree of quality isn't always obvious.
No Consumer Protection Agency and so forth to enforce a minimal degree of quality.
True.
For things that didn't need an Appraise check, just memory, I was thinking about buying, oh, apples or the like. Something where craftsmanship played no real part.
Hard to call there, too. Some apples are better than others.
As for Deadmanwalking and DM_Blake.
When items are hand-crafted then you can't just drop into each "retailer" and compare. Items that are crafted aren't always directly comparable since the degree of quality isn't always obvious.
No Consumer Protection Agency and so forth to enforce a minimal degree of quality.
Doesn't have to be.
Even a blacksmith can look at a crappy pair of shoes and know that they look crappy, or at a good pair of shoes and know that they look well-made. It's all hand made, all the prices vary, but ultimately some of it will appear better and cost more and some not so much, then he can decide to pay for quality or save with cheap workmanship, and compare prices accordingly.
It doesn't take long for the entire town to know which cobbler makes the best shoes, which baker bakes the best pies, and which smith makes the best nails. All the commoners living there will know this easily as a Take-10 Knowledge (Local) check with a DC 10. Maybe the village idiot with an INT penalty and no ranks might not be too knowledgeable, but everyone else is just fine.
Adventurers blowing through town on their way out of a dungeon might not know this info, but there are Knowledge skills for that, as well as Diplomacy or even Intimidate if that's your style.
As for Deadmanwalking and DM_Blake.
When items are hand-crafted then you can't just drop into each "retailer" and compare. Items that are crafted aren't always directly comparable since the degree of quality isn't always obvious.
No Consumer Protection Agency and so forth to enforce a minimal degree of quality.
Actually, that's (a part of) what guilds are for. Ensuring that no practitioner of a craft falls below a certain standard - and, actually also common, that none outshines their colleagues.
Though guilds are basically cartels, and will do their best to set prices as high as possible.
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As a follow up question, isn't the DC way too high for a commoner to appraise a simple pot since he can't take 20?
Per NPC Ability Scores a skill NPC has either a 13 or 15 in Int. Add +2 for human, and they get a stat mod of +2 or +3. As this is probably a class skill for the NPC, and if they have a rank in it, that gives 1+3 more. Add in a Magnifying glass and a Merchant's scale for another +2 or +4, and your 1st level expert can get from +6 to +11 for Appraise. Take-10 makes that a 16 to 21 DC achievable at level 1. A friend's aid another could add another +2 per friend beyond that. A magic item of 100 gp can add yet another +1, as could the spell Guidance.
DC 20 is easily achievable.
/cevah
As a follow up question, isn't the DC way too high for a commoner to appraise a simple pot since he can't take 20?Per NPC Ability Scores a skill NPC has either a 13 or 15 in Int. Add +2 for human, and they get a stat mod of +2 or +3. As this is probably a class skill for the NPC, and if they have a rank in it, that gives 1+3 more. Add in a Magnifying glass and a Merchant's scale for another +2 or +4, and your 1st level expert can get from +6 to +11 for Appraise. Take-10 makes that a 16 to 21 DC achievable at level 1. A friend's aid another could add another +2 per friend beyond that. A magic item of 100 gp can add yet another +1, as could the spell Guidance.
DC 20 is easily achievable.
/cevah
That makes sense for the merchant who makes a living appraising the things he buys and sells.
But you won't find your average butcher, baker, or candlestick maker with Appraise scores like that - 99% of commoners can't get anywhere near a 20 when they Take-10. Which makes buying and selling anything outside the purview of their own profession a total crap shoot.
Hell, I'm a software engineer. I have zero professional talent for buying or selling anything, except maybe video games and RPG books and accessories. But ask me the price of a can of soda, a bottle of ketchup, a pair of shoes, a screwdriver, a paperback novel, a blu-ray, or a pizza, and I can tell you to within a few percent margin of error. In other words, I can get thta DC 20 every time. By Pathfinder standards, that means I have an INT of 30 (even MY ego isn't that overblown) or I have put ranks into a skill that I don't personally use or care about. Even if I'm really smart but within the range of normal people, say, with an 18 INT, that still means I have 6 ranks in Apprise which means I'm at least a level 6 commoner (or expert probably, but I didn't pick Appraise as a class skill because I just don't care about shopping at all) who has devoted 1 rank every level, or I'm even higher than level 6.
I don't feel like I'm level 6. I don't think anyone would argue that I'm inhumanly (or even maximally) brilliant. Yet I can nail that DC every time.
Which was the whole point of the thread - commoners like myself should be able to be reasonably accurate and appraising things like I mentioned, but by Pathfinder rules they must be very extraordinary commoners indeed.
DC 20 is easily achievable.That makes sense for the merchant who makes a living appraising the things he buys and sells.
But you won't find your average butcher, baker, or candlestick maker with Appraise scores like that - 99% of commoners can't get anywhere near a 20 when they Take-10. Which makes buying and selling anything outside the purview of their own profession a total crap shoot.
Hell, I'm a software engineer. I have zero professional talent for buying or selling anything, except maybe video games and RPG books and accessories. But ask me the price of a can of soda, a bottle of ketchup, a pair of shoes, a screwdriver, a paperback novel, a blu-ray, or a pizza, and I can tell you to within a few percent margin of error. In other words, I can get thta DC 20 every time. By Pathfinder standards, that means I have an INT of 30 (even MY ego isn't that overblown) or I have put ranks into a skill that I don't personally use or care about. Even if I'm really smart but within the range of normal people, say, with an 18 INT, that still means I have 6 ranks in Apprise which means I'm at least a level 6 commoner (or expert probably, but I didn't pick Appraise as a class skill because I just don't care about shopping at all) who has devoted 1 rank every level, or I'm even higher than level 6.
I don't feel like I'm level 6. I don't think anyone would argue that I'm inhumanly (or even maximally) brilliant. Yet I can nail that DC every time.
Which was the whole point of the thread - commoners like myself should be able to be reasonably accurate and appraising things like I mentioned, but by Pathfinder rules they must be very extraordinary commoners indeed.
Not placing a rank in appraise when you have 8 or 9 skill ranks to place seems unlikely for a skill based NPC like a baker, plumber, whatever. That means they have a minimum Take-10 of 16. For a DC 20, that means a fail by less than 5 for a ~20% swing. Having masterwork tools is normal for many NPCs, as it helps in their profession/craft. Discussing the value with friends is easily done. So three people talking about the value of a common thing that can be examined with a magnifying glass or a merchant's scale gets that DC 20.
As to your massive INT, well, you said yourself you have maybe an 18, for a +4. You go shopping for stuff routinely. That means you practice that skill. Add 1 rank. You now have +5. It is a class skill, since you are a computer Wizard. You now have +8. You see the price on other common items all the time. Circumstance bonus of +2. [Or you could use masterwork tools or other method for that last +2.] You now have +10, and Take-10 gives you 20. You now hit DC 20 reliably.
/cevah
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Heh, that's pushing it.
I'm not a wizard. By that argument, a plumber is a pipe wizard, right? I'm a commoner with a profession. Or I'm an expert. Either way, Appraise is not a class skill for me since I don't care about it. My class skills are elsewhere.
Likewise, I don't see your average housewife doing her weekly shopping by dragging along 3 neighbors and using a magnifying glass to examine everything she puts in her grocery cart - I've never seen anyone do that in the real the world, why should they do that in Golarion?
There is no reason for bakers or plumbers to have 8 or 9 skill ranks to place anywhere. That assumes they're at least 3rd-4th level. Even so, with only 2 or 3 ranks to place, a plumber might want ranks in Profession (plumbing), Craft (plumbing) (somebody has to make those pipes and Home Depot hasn't been invented yet), Knowledge (engineering) (for those big jobs), Diplomacy (to make job bids and negotiate fees), Perception (to find leaks), Handle Animal (to bring his cart of tools and supplies to the job). That doesn't leave many ranks for hobbies like music or dance (very common forms of entertainment before Xbox was invented).
Being able to correctly estimate the price of a bottle of ketchup might not be very high on that list of skills. Even if it is, it won't get many ranks, if any.
That DC 20 is pretty far out of reach of the vast majority of commoners.
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That makes sense for the merchant who makes a living appraising the things he buys and sells.
Oh, absolutely. Few people will have the +10. +6 is gonna be a little more common, though.
But you won't find your average butcher, baker, or candlestick maker with Appraise scores like that - 99% of commoners can't get anywhere near a 20 when they Take-10. Which makes buying and selling anything outside the purview of their own profession a total crap shoot.
Sure, but not all customers are Commoners, and even with a +0, people get it right 1/4 of the time. That means that significantly more than 1/4 of a particular shop owner's customers will instantly know if he tries to rip them off. More, actually, since it'll also be his Bluff vs. their Sense Motive to lie convincingly.
That's enough to keep most shops mostly honest, and frankly not too different from the real world, where, again, most people know very little about the price of even common goods outside their areas of interest/stuff they buy regularly. They do tend to be a bit better than those without Appraise in Pathfinder, but I'll go into why that might be below.
Hell, I'm a software engineer. I have zero professional talent for buying or selling anything, except maybe video games and RPG books and accessories. But ask me the price of a can of soda, a bottle of ketchup, a pair of shoes, a screwdriver, a paperback novel, a blu-ray, or a pizza, and I can tell you to within a few percent margin of error.
If you buy those things regularly (and they all sound like things you do) you have an interest in buying and selling. Ours is a consumer culture in a way that a medieval farmer's was simply not. Y'know what a medieval farmer bought? Seeds, livestock, cloth (or more likely the things necessary to make cloth), and the tools and materials used to repair his home. That's pretty much it. And he probably only bought such things a few times a year, from people he had an established deal with and knew personally.
By the standards of a world where that's the norm, almost nobody in a first world country in the modern world is a Commoner, we're all Experts for the most part, and we almost universally select Appraise as a Class skill just for living in a culture where we do so much shopping from strangers routinely.
In other words, I can get thta DC 20 every time. By Pathfinder standards, that means I have an INT of 30 (even MY ego isn't that overblown) or I have put ranks into a skill that I don't personally use or care about.
I'm pretty sure you care about buying things more than someone who does it once a year. Hell, so do I, and I rarely buy anything. And 'within a few percent' price estimation is the hallmark of 16+ rather than 20+. Yeah, 'a few' is technically up to 20% but you'll find that much variance just from place to place even for goods in the real world, never mind someplace with less travel.
Even if I'm really smart but within the range of normal people, say, with an 18 INT, that still means I have 6 ranks in Apprise which means I'm at least a level 6 commoner (or expert probably, but I didn't pick Appraise as a class skill because I just don't care about shopping at all) who has devoted 1 rank every level, or I'm even higher than level 6.
Your player picked Appraise because you live in a culture where that's appropriate. Remember, the player picks the Expert's Class Skills, not the character.
I don't feel like I'm level 6. I don't think anyone would argue that I'm inhumanly (or even maximally) brilliant. Yet I can nail that DC every time.
Because you have Appraise as a Class Skill, a rank in it, and a decent Int mod. Sure.
Which was the whole point of the thread - commoners like myself should be able to be reasonably accurate and appraising things like I mentioned, but by Pathfinder rules they must be very extraordinary commoners indeed.
If you're a software engineer, you definitely qualify for at least a level of Expert. So, for reasons stated above, Appraise is probably a Class Skill. Assuming Int 14, one rank (the amount a casual shopper in today's society probably has) lets you Take 10 and get a 16. That's all you really need to 'be within a few percent' on the price of random things.
And all of that is leaving aside my earlier point about Appraise being for stuff you don't buy routinely since memory alone gets you those.
Sure, but not all customers are Commoners, and even with a +0, people get it right 1/4 of the time. That means that significantly more than 1/4 of a particular shop owner's customers will instantly know if he tries to rip them off. More, actually, since it'll also be his Bluff vs. their Sense Motive to lie convincingly.
Most of them are, if he sells common goods. No, most of the jeweler,s customers may not be commoners, but most of the butcher's customers are.
Getting the price of a hunk of ham right 1/20 of the time, and being within 20% 1/4 of the time means that you're still wrong 70% of the time.
If the ham costs 2 sp:
1 "I think that ham should cost 47 gp."
2 "I think that ham should cost 91 gp."
3 "I think that ham should cost 1 cp."
4 "I think that ham should cost 212 pp."
5 "I think that ham should cost an arm and a leg."
6 "I think that ham should cost 1,247 gp."
7 "I think that ham should cost 3 large rubies."
8 "I think that ham should cost 17 gp."
9 "I think that ham should cost 4 gp."
10 "I think that ham should cost 147 gp."
11 "I think that ham should cost my firstborn child."
12 "I think that you should pay me 15 gp to take that ham home."
13 "I think that ham should cost 99 gp."
14 "I think that ham should cost 345 gp."
15 "I think that ham should cost 24 cp."
16 "I think that ham should cost 18 cp."
17 "I think that ham should cost 23 cp."
18 "I think that ham should cost 16 cp."
19 "I think that ham should cost 17 cp."
20 "I think that ham should cost 2 sp."
That's gotta be pretty hard on that poor goodwife when she has to go shopping each week: "Oh honey, I'm back from the butcher. Guess what? He got our firstborn child again..."
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Right...except that customers talk to each other, compare notes, shop around, and know how much money they have and have the free will to choose not to spend it on things that are too pricey.
So, this one guy charges 5 gp for ham. Okay...no peasant has that, so they simply sigh and don't buy the ham. And one in four of them find that utterly ridiculous and tell all their friends that this guy is a cheat. So people stop coming to his shop and he goes bankrupt. Depending on local laws and his other business practices he may be arrested.
That's...pretty much the only ending for a guy whose mark-up is more than 20% over list. People notice, talk, check other shops, and have only limited money to spend in the first price.
Or, to put it another way:
The woman who thinks a ham costs her firstborn child probably just isn't gonna buy any ham. The price is too high.
Or, more likely, she's delighted that the posted prices (which most shops have) are so much lower than she was expecting and buys it for the listed 22 copper.
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So, are we forgetting the following part in the equipment page in pathfinder?
"Merchants commonly exchange trade goods without using currency. As a means of comparison, some trade goods are detailed on Table: Trade Goods."
also
"In general, a character can sell something for half its listed price, including weapons, armor, gear, and magic items. This also includes character-created items.
Trade goods are the exception to the half-price rule. A trade good, in this sense, is a valuable good that can be easily exchanged almost as if it were cash itself."
Then under the trade goods page:
"Merchants commonly exchange trade goods without using currency. Trade goods are the exception to the rule that you can sell an item for half its price; they're valuable enough to be exchanged almost as if they were cash itself. Trade goods are usually transported and sold in larger quantities than the amount listed. A farmer may have 10- and 20-pound sacks of potatoes to sell to a large family or restaurant, and be resistant to tearing open a bag just to sell a few individual potatoes."
So to summarize, the peasantry and common folk already have a system in place. They know what the goods they sell and barter with are worth, after all its their living.
The appraise skill to determine the price of a "common item" is not meant for potatoes, or turnips, its meant for manufactured goods, and goods not sold on a daily basis or in bulk.
A swordsmith might sell a a couple of swords a week, depending on the size of the city, But a farmer will be selling apples and produce by the bushels on a consistent basis.
Now If a commoner came upon a Heavy Steel shield one day while tilling his fields, he would then have to roll appraise. And if he doesn't have any ranks or that sort then he would be confused as what a shield like that would cost.
In the sense motive skill they even have the following
"Orshok has a jeweled idol worth 1,800 gp he mistakenly appraised at 2,000 gp. He tries to sell it to an art collector at an Asking Price of 2,200 gp, knowing the collector will counter with a lower price. The collector succeeds at her Appraise check and realizes the idol's actual value. The collector attempts a Bluff check against Orshok's Sense Motive check and succeeds by 1, so her Undercut Percentage is 3% (base 2% plus 1% for exceeding the check by 1). Because the collector thinks the idol is worth less than Orshok's price, her Initial Offer is 6% less than her estimate of the value (1,692 gp) and her Final Offer is 3% less than her estimate (1,746 gp). When she makes her Initial Offer, Orshok counters with a price of 2,000 gp. This is higher than the collector's Final Offer, so Orshok attempts a Diplomacy check whose DC equals 25 + the buyer's Charisma modifier to keep the buyer's interest. He succeeds at the check, so the buyer counteroffers 1,740 gp (between her Initial and Final Offers). Orshok doesn't think the collector will go much higher, and decides to find another buyer.
Later, Orshok tries to sell the idol to a spice merchant who finds it interesting but knows nothing about art. Orshok again starts with a price of 2,200 gp. The merchant's Sense Motive check beats Orshok's Bluff check, so she realizes he isn't offering a fair price. The merchant attempts a Bluff check opposed by Orshok's Sense Motive check and succeeds by 4, which makes her Undercut Percentage 6% (base 2% plus 4% for exceeding the check by 4). The merchant's Initial Offer is 12% less than Orshok's price (1,936 gp), and her Final Offer is 6% less than Orshok's price (2,068 gp). Orshok counters with a price of 2,000 gp. This is less than the merchant's Final Offer, so Orshok attempts a Diplomacy check (DC 15 + the buyer's Charisma modifier). He succeeds, so the merchant accepts Orshok's counteroffer and buys the item for 2,000 gp."
and Guess what? Right underneath it says:
Trade goods are exempt from bargaining, even in extraordinary circumstances.
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Right...except that customers talk to each other, compare notes, shop around, and know how much money they have and have the free will to choose not to spend it on things that are too pricey.
So, this one guy charges 5 gp for ham. Okay...no peasant has that, so they simply sigh and don't buy the ham. And one in four of them find that utterly ridiculous and tell all their friends that this guy is a cheat. So people stop coming to his shop and he goes bankrupt. Depending on local laws and his other business practices he may be arrested.
No, that's the opposite of what happens. Failing an appraise check doesn't mean the butcher charges the stupid ("wildly inaccurate") price you appraised it for. It just means that YOU have no idea what the real value is, so you have no way to know if the actual price he's charging is good or bad.
Here is a more likely scenario:
Martha: I'm here to buy some ham.
Butcher: I have this hunk of ham right here. Just 3 sp today. (it's really worth 2 sp but the butcher is gouging poor Martha).
Martha: (Rolls a 12 on her appraise check) Wow, that ham is worth 47 gp! Why are you selling it for only 3 sp?
Butcher: (trying not to laugh at Martha's "wildly inaccurate" appraise result) Uh, um, yeah I just got a huge shipment and I don't want it to spoil, so I'm selling it at a big loss.
Martha: Oh, you poor man. That's terrible. I'll buy two hunks at that price. Here's 1 gp; you can keep the change, you poor fella.
Or:
Sally: I'm here to buy some ham.
Butcher: I have this hunk of ham right here. Just 3 sp today. (it's really worth 2 sp but the butcher is gouging poor Sally).
Sally: (Rolls a 12 on her appraise check). What are you trying to pull? That's only worth 3 cp! You're charging ten times what it's worth, you crook!
Butcher: I am not! That's a fair price. But, I tell you what, I'll lower the price to 2 sp just for you because I appreciate your business.
Sally: That's robbery! I'll not shop here when you're charging me more than six times what it's worth. I should tell your guildmaster what a crook you are!
In both cases, the butcher is pretty close to a fair price, maybe gouging a bit but not far off. But his customers blew their untrained crappy Appraise checks and got a "wildly inaccurate" result and then silliness ensued.
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No, that's the opposite of what happens. Failing an appraise check doesn't mean the butcher charges the stupid ("wildly inaccurate") price you appraised it for. It just means that YOU have no idea what the real value is, so you have no way to know if the actual price he's charging is good or bad.
That's almost exactly what I said in the rest of my post that you didn't quote.
Here is a more likely scenario:
Martha: I'm here to buy some ham.
Butcher: I have this hunk of ham right here. Just 3 sp today. (it's really worth 2 sp but the butcher is gouging poor Martha).
Martha: (Rolls a 12 on her appraise check) Wow, that ham is worth 47 gp! Why are you selling it for only 3 sp?
Butcher: (trying not to laugh at Martha's "wildly inaccurate" appraise result) Uh, um, yeah I just got a huge shipment and I don't want it to spoil, so I'm selling it at a big loss.
Martha: Oh, you poor man. That's terrible. I'll buy two hunks at that price. Here's 1 gp; you can keep the change, you poor fella.Or:
Sally: I'm here to buy some ham.
Butcher: I have this hunk of ham right here. Just 3 sp today. (it's really worth 2 sp but the butcher is gouging poor Sally).
Sally: (Rolls a 12 on her appraise check). What are you trying to pull? That's only worth 3 cp! You're charging ten times what it's worth, you crook!
Butcher: I am not! That's a fair price. But, I tell you what, I'll lower the price to 2 sp just for you because I appreciate your business.
Sally: That's robbery! I'll not shop here when you're charging me more than six times what it's worth. I should tell your guildmaster what a crook you are!In both cases, the butcher is pretty close to a fair price, maybe gouging a bit but not far off. But his customers blew their untrained crappy Appraise checks and got a "wildly inaccurate" result and then silliness ensued.
This assumes people with terrible Appraise are actually 100% confident in their Appraise checks under all circumstances and have no logical abilities whatsoever. There's absolutely nothing to state that anywhere. If you have a +0 Appraise its pretty easy to infer that a lot of the time, your judgment about what things should cost isn't the greatest. If the price you figure is reasonable, you'll think it's probably right, but if it makes no sense (since peasants eat ham and don't have 47 gp), you ignore it.
Additionally, and because of this, while technically allowed by the rules, only a complete idiot GM would have you get prices wrong by several orders of magnitude on common household items you've regularly been known to buy. That's stupid on a profound level. Any GM worth their salt would have you get it 50% high or low, maybe as much as double the list price, not 1/10 or 156 times list price. Both are stupid.
This assumes people with terrible Appraise are actually 100% confident in their Appraise checks under all circumstances and have no logical abilities whatsoever. There's absolutely nothing to state that anywhere.
Logic is a function of INTelligence. Having it might indicate a bonus that would apply to Appraise, too. Likewise, not having an Appraise modifier pretty definitely implies not having any exceptional amount of logic.
There absolutely IS something to state that they should have confidence, or at least it's heavily implied.
What would you say to the skilled merchant with lots of ranks and bonuses in appraise who studies an item carefully and determines, correctly, that the item in question is worth exactly 10gp - he rolled a successful Appraise check and "determines the value of that item"? Would you say "You think it's worth about 8-12 GP, give or take, but then again, you might be way off." I sure hope not. He rolled a successful check, he should get the benefit of rolling a successful check: knowing the value of the item. Knowing it.
What would you say to the less skilled merchant who appraises the same 10gp item and rolls a failure but he's above 15? Would you say "You don't know the price at all"? I hope not - he should be told a price within 20%, that's what the skill says he should know. This might be a perfect time to say "You think it's worth about 8-12 GP, give or take". But you would not also say "or you could be way off" because that would not be fair given the result of his Appraise check.
So that takes us to the shopper, or maybe just a young nmerchant who didn't roll well, appraising the same 10gp item but he only rolls a 14 or less. What would you say to this person? "The item is worth exactly 10gp"? Of course not, he failed the roll. How about "You think it's worth about 8-12 GP, give or take"? Nope, that;s an appropriate response for a higher failure. How about "You have no idea what it's worth"? Well, maybe. You seem to be implying this. But that's not what the skill says. It says you get a "wildly inaccurate result".
It's hard to accept "I don't know" as "wildly inaccurate" because that's not what "wildly inaccurate" means. At all. If I go to the shooting range and I never fire a shot, would you say that I was "wildly inaccurate" because I never hit the target? Of course not. Having a "wildly inaccurate" outcome means you DO have an outcome: a bad one. Having no outcome (e.g. "you don't know") is not the same as having a bad outcome.
Telling someone who rolls a 12 "It's worth 50 gold but you really aren't sure" is equally as wrong as telling the guy who rolls a 22 "It's worth 10 gold but you really aren't sure". Both equally wrong.
Which means those poor crappy commoners who almost always fail their Appraise checks get a "wildly inaccurate" result that they are fairly confident is a valid result - anything else is outside the parameters of the language used in the CRB.
Additionally, and because of this, while technically allowed by the rules, only a complete idiot GM would have you get prices wrong by several orders of magnitude on common household items you've regularly been known to buy. That's stupid on a profound level. Any GM worth their salt would have you get it 50% high or low, maybe as much as double the list price, not 1/10 or 156 times list price. Both are stupid..
You're overreacting a bit much there. Of course my examples where hyperbole. I thought that was self-evident with the jokes about first born children.
Hyperbole aside, it does say it's up to each GM, and at least in my opinion, "off by 50%" is not consistent with "wildly inaccurate". The Appraise skill uses the term "wildly inaccurate" rather than stating a percentage. They already stated a percentage for the less inaccurate fail result so they could have and probably would have stated another percentage if all the meant was "off by 50%".
But they didn't.
Go watch the movie, Major League. Watch Charlie Sheen pitching in the first half of the movie, the half where the fans nickname him "Wild Thing". Many, many of his pitches are way, way more than 50% out of the strike zone. That's a perfectly illustrative example of what "wildly inaccurate" means. At least to me.
Does it have to be orders of magnitude? No, I used hyperbole to illustrate the point. But it could be 200% or 300%, or whatever - it's certainly not limited to a mere 50%.
Someone with a modicum of self-awareness (I'd probably call it not dump-level wisdom, but definitions can vary) will know whether they're good at something or not. Appraise is about what you think it's worth without any interference. If I'm not good at appraising but I know Merchant Mel is, I'll probably give his guess more weight if I think he's not trying to screw me.
If it's far enough off what I think it's worth, I'll probably try to get a second opinion. But just like somebody with crappy Knowledge(arcana) isn't obligated to disagree with Gandalf when he says that could have a magical origin, somebody with a crappy Appraise isn't obligated to take their estimate over a trusted expert.
Heh, that's pushing it.
Really?
I'm not a wizard. By that argument, a plumber is a pipe wizard, right? I'm a commoner with a profession. Or I'm an expert. Either way, Appraise is not a class skill for me since I don't care about it. My class skills are elsewhere.
Most computer jocks like to be called wizards. :-)
Computer science is considered an arcane area of knowledge, which again means wizard.Even if you say you are not a wizard, you are still a skilled NPC.
But for the sake of argument, let us say you are a mere commoner with 2+Int skills. At 18 Int, that means 6 ranks/level, and appraise is not a class skill.
Likewise, I don't see your average housewife doing her weekly shopping by dragging along 3 neighbors and using a magnifying glass to examine everything she puts in her grocery cart - I've never seen anyone do that in the real the world, why should they do that in Golarion?
Drag along three friends? Maybe not. Bump into three friends who all usually shop at the same time as her? Much more likely. Bump into three friends who happen to be there? Likely.
As for the younger crowd, have you not seen the girl groups that go to the mall to hang out? That is communal shopping, . :-)
There is no reason for bakers or plumbers to have 8 or 9 skill ranks to place anywhere. That assumes they're at least 3rd-4th level. Even so, with only 2 or 3 ranks to place, a plumber might want ranks in Profession (plumbing), Craft (plumbing) (somebody has to make those pipes and Home Depot hasn't been invented yet), Knowledge (engineering) (for those big jobs), Diplomacy (to make job bids and negotiate fees), Perception (to find leaks), Handle Animal (to bring his cart of tools and supplies to the job). That doesn't leave many ranks for hobbies like music or dance (very common forms of entertainment before Xbox was invented).
Three levels for 8 or 9 ranks might be needed for a standard skill NPC, but we are talking your massive 18 Int. You got 6.
Being able to correctly estimate the price of a bottle of ketchup might not be very high on that list of skills. Even if it is, it won't get many ranks, if any.
That DC 20 is pretty far out of reach of the vast majority of commoners.
So lets calculate this for you, as a skilled commoner:
You shop every week of your adult life, maybe more than once a week. You therefore are accustomed to the usual prices of common goods. I see this as a skill rank of training.Add in your native intelligence. You now are at +5.
You go shopping, and bump into a friend/acquaintance and you start talking. If something is way out of line, price wise, likely one of you will notice. That is aid another at +2. You are now at +7.
You don't put special effort into doing a spectacular job, but rather for an average job. Take-10 gives you 17.
At this level, you are within ~20% of the correct price.
If you compare notes with two more, you have 21.
Again, it is not that hard to hit.
That first aid another could also be a long standing relationship of trust, for a +2 circumstance bonus.
Note: Appraise is a class skill for an aristocrat, and as a fellow software engineer, I can say we think of ourselves as aristocrats within the field of computer use. I know I have been called a wizard in my professional life. :-)
/cevah
Why is there still a discussion for this?
Trade goods are prices set in stone, and because of that there is no reason to invest into appraise skills as a commoner.
You COULD play it that honest butchers and weavers of a community are looking to jip the very people that live with them and they interact with on a regular basis. If you are a GM, then yeah, go ahead and play a slightly corrupt butcher, or throw in a famine that makes food prices soar.
OTHERWISE, it has already been described in the rules that there is a common system of trade to deal with everyone's speculations regarding
"peasants are so dumb, they can't know for certain how much HAM COSTS"
Case closed.
Why is there still a discussion for this?
Trade goods are prices set in stone, and because of that there is no reason to invest into appraise skills as a commoner.
You COULD play it that honest butchers and weavers of a community are looking to jip the very people that live with them and they interact with on a regular basis. If you are a GM, then yeah, go ahead and play a slightly corrupt butcher, or throw in a famine that makes food prices soar.
OTHERWISE, it has already been described in the rules that there is a common system of trade to deal with everyone's speculations regarding
"peasants are so dumb, they can't know for certain how much HAM COSTS"Case closed.
Ham is not a trade good. A live pig is a trade good.
There is nothing that says prices of trade goods are "set in stone". IRL, there is an entire global commodities market that exists BECAUSE prices of trade goods are not fixed. So just because a live pig is listed as 3gp on the trade goods table doesn't mean a merchant might not buy a live pig in Farmville for 2gp and take him to Megacit and sell him to a butcher there for 4gp.
None of which has much to do with the price of a chunk of ham.
None of this has anything to do with the ethics of the butcher. He might rip people off, he might not. Either way, it's irrelevant. The problem is not with the morality of the alignment system as it applies to sellers, the problem is with the effectiveness of the Appraise skill as it applies to buyers.
Case reopened.
I agree there isn't a real problem here. Like real life, most people aren't going to try and figure out what something is worth before they buy it. They're going to look at how much it is being offered for, then decide if that is worth it to them or not and make their decisions based on that. I have almost never appraised anything in real life, I just buy stuff if the price looks good for what I get out of it.
Very few people know how much things are actually worth most of the time unless they really care and try to look it up. There is some amount of price markup on just about everything in retail, and it can be quite large. I can think of things where people are sometimes off by a factor of 10 or more unless they use the internet to accurately price the good; HDMI cables come to mind, for example.
You can use the internet to do mass comparison shopping to accurately appraise most things, but the internet might as well be a greater artifact that gives everyone with access to it a +20 to all int based skills.
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You can use the internet to do mass comparison shopping to accurately appraise most things, but the internet might as well be a greater artifact that gives everyone with access to it a +20 to all int based skills.Haha. The bonus should be random positive or negative; the amount of actual real knowledge available on the internet is at least equally balanced by the amount of pure, unadulterated "dumb" that can also be found therein.
LOL, roll a d12 + d20 (only because d12s are always forgotten). If the d12 = 1-6, then the d20 result is a penalty with the information you found on the internet. If the d12 = 7-12, the d20 result is a bonus. Now roll your appraise check with the d20 bonus/penalty. :-P
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Let's look at this a different way.
Here is a list of a bunch of "common" tasks, and a few uncommon ones as well, that ordinary commoners might do in their lives. I left off unusual stuff like disabling devices and other "adventuring" type of skills that commoners probably never do - these are outside the scope of discussing what a commoner should be able to do.
10: Climb in ship's rigging - a "common" task for a sailor
15: Climb a cliff - probably an "uncommon" thing for most people
5: Craft a spoon - a "common" item
10: Craft a pot - a "common" item
10: Gather "common" information (Diplomacy)
10: Ask for "common" direction from an indifferent NPC (Diplomacy)
10: Handle a "common" animal
15: Provide first aid (Heal) - probably an "uncommon" thing for most people
10: Identify a "common" plant or animal
10: Identify rulers and their symbols
10: Know the names of the planes ?!
10: Play a "common" musical instrument and earn a few CP
10: Know "common" things about your profession
5: Guide a mount with your knees
5: Stay in the saddle
10: "Common" survival necessities in the wilderness
10: Swim in "common" calm water circumstances
20: Determine the value of a "common" item
Hmmmmm, one of these "common" things is not like ANY of the others...
This has been my point all along. I think the devs really dropped the ball on this; it's like they temporarily forgot what "common" should mean, possibly because they only considered the "challenge" as it applies to an adventurer selling loot in a marketplace.
It would make much more sense if Appraise had a scaling DC like so many other skills (see the Craft skill for an example).
Here's a rough draft:
DC Determine value
10: Daily-use item (daily living items like food and drink)
15: Common items (ordinary household stuff that everybody has or uses commonly like clothing items, pots and pans, household tools like brooms, etc.), light armor, simple weapons
20: Uncommon items (things most people only buy once like wagons, or more common things that many people never buy like cows or silk rope or gems < 100gp), medium armor, martial weapons.
25: Rare items (things most people never own or even see, like telescopes), heavy armor, exotic weapons
There are two points I wish to make here really quick.
First, memory is persistent within the PRG. If you (PC or NPC) manage to decipher a scroll, you've got it deciphered (even if you haven't deciphered another scroll of the same spell.) Likewise, all characters that have interacted with fire know that fire is hot, all characters that have seen a dragon breathe fire know that a 'dragon' could breathe fire (it is possible to not know the term dragon, but you can identify that one creature is similar in nature to another, having a sinuous body, wings, four class and dinosaur-snake-cat-horse-ish head).
Likewise, those who buy ale at the Rusty Wheel know it's 4 cp a mug. Those who've been to Kingspress Tavern know that the ale there tastes better, in their opinion, and is well worth the 5 cp a mug that they charge. And anyone who's gone to Mudcake Boot Inn know that while the ale there is only 2 cp, it tastes watered down (assuming they've been to the Rusty wheel or Kingspress, and have had some real ale.)
However, when the Elvish merchant brings a bottle of cheap ale into town, nobody can look at the bottle and say whether the stuff is fit for a king or isn't fit for a pig without tasting it.
Likewise, a hero can swing two clubs, and decide that club A feels better in their hand than club B, but he can't tell you that club A is 'masterwork' and is therefore worth 300 gp UNLESS he's got ranks in Appraise, get's really lucky, or has already bought a club like club A.
Second, and this is more a corner case, there is one way that a commoner could identify the rough value of an item. A commoner with a rank in a profession "know[s] how to use the tools of [the] trade, how to perform the profession's daily tasks, how to supervise helpers, and how to handle common problems." Thus, a professional merchant knows how to perform a Merchant's daily tasks, like identifying items for trade, and knowing the rough price of the item. However, just because said 1st level merchant knows how much a bushel of wheat costs, and may know that Nordshire's wheat is higher quality that Rugberg's, he can't look at a bushel of wheat and give more than a hopeful guess as to it's actual value (assuming he's a fairly shrewd merchant, he may have a +2 or +3 modifier on this, giving him a better chance at getting a close approximation of the price than the porter with an intelligence of 8, who is not a merchant in part because he hasn't the mind for it.)
In conclusion, NO, the average bear should not know exactly how much an item is worth. He can give you the price he paid for his last wooden spoon, he can hear your price for your wooden spoon, and he can acknowledge that the spoon you are selling is much smoother than the spoon he had earlier. He can even decide that this one is probably better, so he'll part with an extra copper for it. He can also tell you know, he doesn't believe any wooden spoon should be worth 10 gold pieces, because he could buy a cow for that much (he knows, because he's a rancher, or at least tried to sell his cow before). But he cannot say that the spoon is definitely worth the extra copper or the full 10 gold pieces, which is how I think it should be.
It would make much more sense if Appraise had a scaling DC like so many other skills (see the Craft skill for an example).
Here's a rough draft:
DC Determine value
10: Daily-use item (daily living items like food and drink)
15: Common items (ordinary household stuff that everybody has or uses commonly like clothing items, pots and pans, household tools like brooms, etc.), light armor, simple weapons
20: Uncommon items (things most people only buy once like wagons,...
And I have just added that to my house rule set. Thanks.
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Basing a skill on level one commoners is silly. They are basicially uneducated children. Any "commoner" who learns anything would be an expert. commoners who gain experience are unskilled laborers and beggars with experience, maybe the average based on sheer numbers but not on assumed skill or education.
Any "commoner" who learns anything would be an expert.
This is not Pathfinder's definition.
In Pathfinder, "Commoner" is a class. "Expert" is a different class. See this page.
Your statement is like saying "a fighter who learns anything would be a wizard" - hyperbole, but it's still true. Learning "anything" as a member of one class does not mean you automatically become some other class.
Unfortunately, the web page doesn't list definitions for these NPC classes, but a person can be a commoner for his whole life, even if he has a job. A farmer, for example, would be a commoner forever. He might even be a very good commoner, with lots of XP and become, say, a level 10 commoner. He's the best farmer in the land, but still not an expert.
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Any "commoner" who learns anything would be an expert.This is not Pathfinder's definition.
In Pathfinder, "Commoner" is a class. "Expert" is a different class. See this page.
Your statement is like saying "a fighter who learns anything would be a wizard" - hyperbole, but it's still true. Learning "anything" as a member of one class does not mean you automatically become some other class.
Unfortunately, the web page doesn't list definitions for these NPC classes, but a person can be a commoner for his whole life, even if he has a job. A farmer, for example, would be a commoner forever. He might even be a very good commoner, with lots of XP and become, say, a level 10 commoner. He's the best farmer in the land, but still not an expert.
You are making a straw man. Classes are game terms, a real life commoner is likely an expert, just trained in more common things. The best farmer in the land is not a commoner, especially with an npc stat array. You are not stuck in any class due to birth, it represents your skills and training.
In Pathfinder, "Commoner" is a class. "Expert" is a different class. See this page.
Unfortunately, the web page doesn't list definitions for these NPC classes, but a person can be a commoner for his whole life, even if he has a job. A farmer, for example, would be a commoner forever. He might even be a very good commoner, with lots of XP and become, say, a level 10 commoner. He's the best farmer in the land, but still not an expert.
Even looked at the book, and it does not have a definition either. Don't blame the web page for that. :-)
/cevah
You are making a straw man. Classes are game terms, a real life commoner is likely an expert, just trained in more common things. The best farmer in the land is not a commoner, especially with an npc stat array. You are not stuck in any class due to birth, it represents your skills and training.Any "commoner" who learns anything would be an expert.This is not Pathfinder's definition.
In Pathfinder, "Commoner" is a class. "Expert" is a different class. See this page.
Your statement is like saying "a fighter who learns anything would be a wizard" - hyperbole, but it's still true. Learning "anything" as a member of one class does not mean you automatically become some other class.
Unfortunately, the web page doesn't list definitions for these NPC classes, but a person can be a commoner for his whole life, even if he has a job. A farmer, for example, would be a commoner forever. He might even be a very good commoner, with lots of XP and become, say, a level 10 commoner. He's the best farmer in the land, but still not an expert.
Now you're talking about multi-classing or level-dipping.
Of course a fighter who multiclasses as a wizard, or level-dips as a wizard, will know more than an ordinary fighter who doesn't. Or better yet, dips a level of rogue to get lots of skill ranks.
Of course a commoner who multiclasses as an expert, or level-dips as an expert, will know more than an ordinary commoner. Or perhaps he, too, should dip a level of rogue to get lots of skill ranks.
There's no straw men here, just an analogy to other classes.