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So the Eldritch Scoundrel Archetype from Arcane Anthology gives us a Rogue with with 6 level prepared casting. I'm kind of exited about this but not sure if it's actually all that good.
So how does it compare to other arcane Gish classes such as the Magus or the Bard?
What kind of builds do you envision?
Are there any hidden gems on the Wizard/Sorceror spell list? I'm pretty exited about a number of the swift action spells.
Seems like the class is fairly SAD as it prolly only wants a high DEX, decent or high INT and decent CON.
The Human FCB is probably really good here as you get so few Rogue talents now.
Sneak Attack really shouldn't be a major build consideration anymore. As the progression is so slow. I really like this but I'm wondering how you can deal good damage none the less. You might also want to focus more on a debuffer role.
I'm pretty sure you can take Ninja Talents with Unchained Rogue now. That's pretty sweet. The cost of spell slots is pretty steep but makes for a pseudo spontaneous casting mechanism.
If been thinking about a reach Rogue build with Elven Branched Spear. You'd prolly have to prioritize INT more heavily here to make use of save or suck spells.
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I'm a big fan of this and the child of Acavna and Amaznen. I'm not a huge optimizer, though, so I can't speak to "good enough". ^_^
Have you considered the magus VMC? It seems pretty perfect here.
Remember that you don't have a way around arcane spell failure - that mithral shirt isn't completely risk-free. Mage armor is on the table, though.
As for sneak attacks, the sense vitals spell (from Dirty Tactics Toolbox) is a good way to make up for lost dice. And probably some sort of powerful statement about that whole martial/caster thing. That, plus some touch spells and spellstrike from the magus VMC, seems good.
Have you considered the magus VMC? It seems pretty perfect here.Remember that you don't have a way around arcane spell failure - that mithral shirt isn't completely risk-free. Mage armor is on the table, though.
As for sneak attacks, the sense vitals spell (from Dirty Tactics Toolbox) is a good way to make up for lost dice. And probably some sort of powerful statement about that whole martial/caster thing. That, plus some touch spells and spellstrike from the magus VMC, seems good.
Somehow I was under the impression that Mithral Chain had 0 Arcane spell failure... hmm that does suck as Mage armor can't be enhanced. You could also try some darkleaf cloth armor but that won't get you to 0 either :(
Magus VMC is defnietly very interesting. It's not legal for PFS however and would leave you very feat starved.
Sesne Vitals... somehow I was thinking there was a spell in 3.5 similar to this. I'm not sure if you really want to go round spending your first round of combat getting this up however.
Bump for the evening crowd!
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Sesne Vitals... somehow I was thinking there was a spell in 3.5 similar to this. I'm not sure if you really want to go round spending your first round of combat getting this up however.
Yeah, but Hunter's Eye was Ranger 2 only (but Divination and infamously picked with Unseen Seer!). Swift action cast, but only 1 round duration. Great Persisted.
There may have been another, longer duration but standard action spell, but I can't think of the name of it off the top of my head.
Anyways, Sense Vitals is almost necessary for the character. Keeps Sneak Attack at full Rogue-ish level. Getting it Quickened would be perfect, but that's tough. Magus VMC discovery could help...
Speaking of Magus VMC, not only can you grab Spellstrike and use that with Chill Touch and similar spells, but you can get Prescient Attack which is perfect for a Rogue. Very similar to Circling Mongoose, at the very least.
OMG yes, Prescient Attack. ^_^
More-or-less my thoughts exactly.
I think you can get by with the feat loss from Magus VMC if you do not go for a Two-Weapon Fighting build, but it would be pretty tight. Rogue talents help.
I also hear you can do some pretty fancy things with Ki points with Eldritch Scoundrel. Ninja is a nice bet if Unchained Rogue is unavailable, a little bit mad between Cha and Int. Unfortunately, my memory tells me URogue cannot take the Ki Pool talent.
I think you can get by with the feat loss from Magus VMC is you do not go for a Two-Weapon Fighting build, but it would be pretty tight. Rogue talents help.
You know you literally need two feats to pull off TWF on a Rogue, right? TWF and ITWF. Double Slice adds no damage and Two-Weapon Rend is a bust without STR.
Even with VMC Magus:
1. TWF, Toughness
4. Weapon Training
5. Twist Away
8. CT: ITWF
9. Iron Will
And that's it. You can replace Toughness and Iron Will with Spell Focus if you are into that.
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Staggered > dying in my book.
I think you can get by with the feat loss from Magus VMC is you do not go for a Two-Weapon Fighting build, but it would be pretty tight. Rogue talents help.
You know you literally need two feats to pull off TWF on a Rogue, right? TWF and ITWF. Double Slice adds no damage and Two-Weapon Rend is a bust without STR.
Even with VMC Magus:
1. TWF, Toughness
4. Weapon Training
5. Twist Away
8. CT: ITWF
9. Iron Will
And that's it. You can replace Toughness and Iron Will with Spell Focus if you are into that.
I somehow forgot URogue gets Weapon Finesse and Dex to Damage for free. I was just thinking of the debuff applicating stuff. I've been playing too much 3.5 (and 5e). Derp.
TWF does have the open-hand for casting issues, but I think you'll be doing most of your casting before drawing your weapons or outside of combat completely, so that shouldn't be a huge issue. Otherwise you can go with a cestus.
Hm... Seems pretty darn good. Quite fun at the very least.
Cestus best weapon baby.
I do want a final say on whether it counts as a close weapon on PFS though, it's my favorite Brawler tool.
Outslug Rogue all day.
As to builds I think there's two paths you can take here
A) The Magic Rogue that utilizes Spells to increase utility this strategy will likely want to max out INT to capitalize on DC based spells. Arcane Trickster is definitely strong here.
B) The GISH that got skills and is entirely SAD and uses Spells to complements it's defense and offense. This might or might not be strictly inferior to an actual magus in term of combat prowess...
On a whole there's an awful lot of upsides to Arcane Trickster. Better WIL save, faster SA progression, easy entry. Only downside is the poor BAB.
Combat Style:
I'm not really seeing TWF here...you get so few SA dice and no inherent to hit modifiers (yeah I know deific obedience is a thing) that your to hit will be subpar. Also you are a d8 hit dice class with no armor proficiency so your AC proly sucks even with Mage armor and Shield up.
I'm really digging the Branched Spear Path. Half Elf for proficiency, Human FCB for extra talents, this could be sweet. Maybe the style that allows you to attack adjacent. If you prioritize INT here you can try and use save or suck spells on your standard action some of which might help in provoking AoO.
Spells:
I really like blend here for the 10 min per level duration.
Any good spells to get your sneak attack on besides blend, vanish etc. ?
On a tangent what makes outslug so awesome in you guyses book?
Do they keep (Improved) Evasion?
'Fireballing Yourself For Fun and Profit' Rogue?
Don't have my PDF handy right now but I think so...
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Random thoughts about this archetype:
* If you lose half of your rogue tricks, you lose less than half of rogue trick power. Because you will likely pick the best first, making the first half stronger than the second. Also, you don't have to deal with Major Magic trick (and its trick tax Minor Magic) anymore.
* Such a rogue could take the Accomplished Sneak Attacker feat to get another die for sneak attack. This feat doesn't work for normal, single class rogues.
Depending on the available spells it could achieve a lot:
* Shapeshift into some creature with several primary natural attacks, probably resulting in actually more sneak attack damage than a normal rogue, despite less sneak dice. This option might allow you to skip the expensive two-weapon route.
* Ensure sneak attack more often. Vanish and improved invisibility come to my mind, but hold person etc. would work also.
* Make up rogue's weak melee defense with illusion spells or AC boosts.
Given that, I am not surprised they decided to demand a harsh price for casting...
Don't have my PDF handy right now but I think so...Do they keep (Improved) Evasion?
'Fireballing Yourself For Fun and Profit' Rogue?
IIRC they trade half their Rogue Talents, half their SA Dice Progression and (Improved) Uncanny Dodge.
You can always one way ticket into Arcane Trickster now, and a few other notable Prestige Classes if that's your thing.
I also hear you can do some pretty fancy things with Ki points with Eldritch Scoundrel. Ninja is a nice bet if Unchained Rogue is unavailable, a little bit mad between Cha and Int. Unfortunately, my memory tells me URogue cannot take the Ki Pool talent.I don't think it needs the Ki Pool talent.
From Rogue Talents:
** spoiler omitted **Unchained Rogue can take Ninja Tricks that require Ki use, just can't use them without a Ki Pool. This ability appears to act as a defacto ki pool. Honestly, that line in the rogue talents section is buried, but it really changes how this would play if you chose a lot of ninja tricks with your rogue talents and maybe even picking up extra rogue talents for more ninja tricks.
You'd have the flexibility to memorize situational 1st levels spells each day and then spontaneously convert them to effectively second level spells (invisibility, mirror image, etc), some of which as swift actions.
Huh, yup. The RAW of the Ninja Trick talent kind of implies you cannot use the features without a ki pool, but I think most would rule in favor of allowing based on the above text. Man is that just fricken sweet. Though they can't take Master Tricks, can they? The talent allowing that came in an Ultimate Combat errata and I don't think it was called out to work with URogue, was it?
I don't have access to the description of Eldritch Scoundrel yet, so I have to ask: Does it substitutee for Arcane Trickster class features (Ranged Legerdemain, Impromptu Sneak Attack, Tricky Spells, Invisible Thief, and Surprise Spells)?
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I don't have access to the description of Eldritch Scoundrel yet, so I have to ask: Does it substitutee for Arcane Trickster class features (Ranged Legerdemain, Impromptu Sneak Attack, Tricky Spells, Invisible Thief, and Surprise Spells)?
I don't believe so, based on what others have said it sounds like all they gain is the spell casting itself and the ability to trade spells for ki.
That said, the Feat "Accomplished Sneak Attacker" does let you grab the Prestige Class with only 4 levels of Eldritch Scoundrel.
Of course, that Feat also lets you go Rogue 1/Wizard 3 and then Arcane Trickster, which is probably better in several ways...
* Shapeshift into some creature with several primary natural attacks, probably resulting in actually more sneak attack damage than a normal rogue, despite less sneak dice. This option might allow you to skip the expensive two-weapon route.
I don't think natural attacks (and thus polymorphing) are all that good for the rogue as the Finesse Training ability requires you to specify one weapon and you don't get a second weapon before level 11 or so.
What Ive been thinking about is that you have pretty awesome Nova potential if you really choose to go with Ninja tricks such as vanishing trick for the Invisible Snow Ball move. Things is your prolly a bit strapped for spell slots. The nice thing is that pearls of power are pretty cheap Ki-points...
Another thing that occurred to me is that since archetype doesn't trade out trapfinding or evasion you can actually stack it with a few other Rogue archetypes most notable the Counterfeit Mage and the Underground Chemist. However those both replace your 4th level Rogue talent so that might not work...
I don't think natural attacks (and thus polymorphing) are all that good for the rogue as the Finesse Training ability requires you to specify one weapon and you don't get a second weapon before level 11 or so.
That's a point. So you would have to focus on creatures with many attacks of the same type. I had to scroll through bestiaries quite a bit, but charda with its four claws should be a (relatively) early option. Monstrous Physique I comes at level 7 (assuming magus spell list and progression for eldritch scoundrel) and you could take claws as second finesse training weapon 4 levels later.
It wouldn't be something to rely on all the time, it's rather yet another trick in rogue's repertoire...
I don't think natural attacks (and thus polymorphing) are all that good for the rogue as the Finesse Training ability requires you to specify one weapon and you don't get a second weapon before level 11 or so.That's a point. So you would have to focus on creatures with many attacks of the same type. I had to scroll through bestiaries quite a bit, but charda with its four claws should be a (relatively) early option. Monstrous Physique I comes at level 7 (assuming magus spell list and progression for eldritch scoundrel) and you could take claws as second finesse training weapon 4 levels later.
It wouldn't be something to rely on all the time, it's rather yet another trick in rogue's repertoire...
Well the thing is if you choose claws for your finesse training you won't get DEX to damage anytime you are not using claws. Now for a race with claws that wouldn't be a problem but for all others it would entail considerable opportunity cost.
Also while inconsequential here you use the Wizard spell list.
I've been looking into races a bit and I'm really liking Elf.
+2 DEX +2 INT :)
-2 CON :(
You can get free spell focus with a racial trait.
You treat the Elven Branched Spear as martial even when trading out weapon familiarity so Heirloom weapon gives you proficiency from level 1
Hardcore minmaxing leaves me with the following stat array:
STR 7 DEX 18 CON 12 INT 18 WIS 13 CHA 7
FCB would have to go into HPs obviously. You can get around the 7 STR until level 3 by relying on ghost touch and ranged attacks and control spells (from wands?). Carrying capacitiy shouldn't be your greatest concern either.
That seems suicidal.
It gives you mobility, reach, and damage. being able to move 10' on a 5' step with an extra 5' reach is great for setting up flanks and full-attacking.
On a tangent what makes outslug so awesome in you guyses book?
At the cost of !6! feats. Sure most of them are decent to good but still that's a heavy investment. I'd agree that it's awesome for brawlers and is also quite nice for shield users though.
So I think it'd be a perfectly viable move to jump into Arcane Trickster at 4 - the class really has all it needs at that point and arcane trickster advances everything for the archetype except rogue talents (i.e. you won't get advanced rogue talents).
The big con of moving into Arcane trickster at 5th is that you mis out on the Skill unlocks. You also don't get the improvements to debilitating injury at 10th 16th. Additional Rogue talents can be purchased with feats if truly desired.
However going into Arcane Trickster more or less precludes participating in melee. Not only does your BAB progression slow down, you are also limited to a d6 HD without FCB for extra HP.
I don't have access to the description of Eldritch Scoundrel yet, so I have to ask: Does it substitutee for Arcane Trickster class features (Ranged Legerdemain, Impromptu Sneak Attack, Tricky Spells, Invisible Thief, and Surprise Spells)?
No. What this archetype does grant is 6-level spellcasting, getting the same spells per day as a magus, and the ability to spend spells to fuel any Ninja Trick that uses Ki. It has more versatility on the spell front but loses half of just about every core class feature (unchained doesn't count). The raw power lost doesn't really match the power and versatility gained from spellcasting, though I would've expected a spontaneous caster rather than a prepared one.
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IMO, the archetype is perfect as a stepping stone into Arcane Trickster and subpar if you plan to go past Debilitating Injury. Using the SA feat from Dirty Tactics lets you enter AT at 5, which is perfect.
I dunno... I think Combat Reflexes is the only real "Sunk cost" candidate. Weapon Focus opens up a lot of other things, and Lunge is a LOT more palatable investment when you know that you won't have to pay the penalty. If the investment is getting to be a bit much, you could also stop at Weave for a five feat investment; +2 to AC, +2 to damage, and free 5' reach seems like a pretty darned good deal to me.At the cost of !6! feats. Sure most of them are decent to good but still that's a heavy investment. I'd agree that it's awesome for brawlers and is also quite nice for shield users though.It gives you mobility, reach, and damage. being able to move 10' on a 5' step with an extra 5' reach is great for setting up flanks and full-attacking.
On a tangent what makes outslug so awesome in you guyses book?
I think you are referring to Combat Expertise. As I said most of them are decent to good however equating Lunge with increased reach does overstate it's power slightly.
In any case this discussion is a bit off topic here as I really don't see how Outsulg style would benefit an Eldritch Scoundrel.
IMO, the archetype is perfect as a stepping stone into Arcane Trickster and subpar if you plan to go past Debilitating Injury. Using the SA feat from Dirty Tactics lets you enter AT at 5, which is perfect.Stop taking my ideas and making them sound great!
Are you afraid that you'll see a table with 6 of this build? I'd be afraid as a GM. :-p
TBF, I think most everybody sees this build option as soon as they read the archetype. Now the trick will be if it gets sanctioned for PFS.
Are you afraid that you'll see a table with 6 of this build? I'd be afraid as a GM. :-p
TBF, I think most everybody sees this build option as soon as they read the archetype. Now the trick will be if it gets sanctioned for PFS.
But is this build better than Rogue 1/Wizard 3/Arcane Trickster X?
The 9 level casting easily surpasses casting from Eldritch Scoundrel despite the missed level.
And I'm not sure if the improved marital capacities of the eldritch Scoundrel will actually be utilized by an AT build as it's so super fluffy...