Venture-Captain, Minnesota
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But suffice to say, I have had more disruptions at the table from players who have trouble with simple math (not you HMM) than I have due to Hero labs. And when those players started using Hero Labs, the disruptions decreased.
The only reason I'm not disruptive with my math dysfunction is that I'm so open about it. Most adults would be too embarrassed to admit that they can't add the buffs in-game.
So all things being equal, the answer currently, is banning a valid choice because of your personal anecdotal evidence is poor form.
You say you are more justified at a convention, and I say that's when you are least justified in making up your own rules.
Can we not use phrases like 'bad form' here? It just heats up the rhetoric. Let's find common ground instead. I wish that I could get you and Nefreet at the same table. I think this argument would be better settled with a beer than with forum posts.
Your faithful minion
(and Poker of Beehives!)
Hmm
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I've been on the fence about all the red tape, paperwork, restrictions, and requirements one has to go through to begin PFS play, and this forum thread has just convinced me that it's not worth it. Just something to think about, I'm sure there are others lurking around like me that have just been put off of PFS/convention play.
Heh, yeah, like others have said I've never seen a problem at a table or in a play-by-post game. I've only ever had an immense amount of fun. Mostly a good bunch of people/great community.
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Maybe I am just in a cynical mood, but when I do have to wonder if at least some of the red tape people want to avoid includes being forced to buy stuff from Paizo.
With or without HeroLab you still have to buy everything. I've bought more Paizo product than I ever would have without HeroLab. With HeroLab I find some trait I like, then see I don't own the source, and then buy it for the one trait! Hopefully finding other cool stuff in the material after the fact.
For me, HeroLab means more money in Paizo's coffers.
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The key thing to remember: These forums aren't for Pathfinder Society players and GMs. These forums are for people whose hobby is arguing about things on the internet. 99.9% of what actually happens in PFS has nothing to do with what happens on these forums.
The only part where I won't agree with this is when it comes to bannings and errata discussions. When I'm debating those on these forums it's because it has directly impacted my characters in some way (normally negatively, I've had to rebuild/retrain/retire all but my very first character who I only played to 4-5 exp.)
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I think this argument would be better settled with a beer than with forum posts.
Your faithful minion
(and Poker of Beehives!)
HmmDone, this could be amazing. Nefreet, Andy, trollbill, and three others. I will provide a gaming space, myself as a GM, and sleeping arrangements in spare rooms for two. You pick the module and the weekend. We can record everything and someone can do a posting something. If Bob could make it, that would be amazing.
I will provide all food. I have been told I am a decent cook. And can handle transportation from the airport.
Btw, yes I am serious, this could be a lot of fun.
It could be interesting indeed.
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Actually, Nefreet will be at Paizo Con. I'm hoping to go. Andrew, are you going?
If so... I'm going to suggest that you both come with me for beer. Or as Undead Mitch suggested, multiple beers. We'll have a great time!
Hmm
PS Tindalen's suggestion sounds great too!
Could I please tag along and be the bird on the wall for that one? Can't make something 'on the side' because I'm saving money for Paizo Con and Gen Con this year.
I could even split a room with someone, since currently I'll have a bed free for some of the nights...
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Maybe I am just in a cynical mood, but when I do have to wonder if at least some of the red tape people want to avoid includes being forced to buy stuff from Paizo.
I can't help but think this was directed solely at me, but I digress.
I can't speak for other people, but I have purchased 3 physical copies (one was stolen out of my car and the other was a gift) and 1 digital copy of the Core rulebook, not to mention many other rule/splat books. Buying books isn't red tape, it's supporting the hobby.
The red tape I was referring to is the 45 page Pathfinder Society Roleplaying Guild Guide, the rule clarifications that you may not ignore but don't necessarily have to have read posted at http://paizo.
com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/pathfinder/
pathfinderSociety, the FAQ, not being able to play a Summoner despite having purchased the Advanced Class Guide, the Chronicles, being forced to have a physical copy of your character sheet when there's such a thing as the internet and databases, etc.
It sounds like rules lawyering, filling out TPS reports, and from what I see on this forum post, high school immaturity. I'd rather play a roleplaying game and make some attempt at collaborative storytelling.
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This should be a really redundant thing. GMs and players who can't come to an agreement on anything in play - including using digitals - will just say either I'm not playing here or you can't play at my table.
The best result of that is to mutually agree that it isn't a good fit and to find another table, maybe on another day where another table isn't available. That result won't always happen, but the goal should be to keep it respectable.
Not to place bans on to say what GMs or players can and can't do. We can't even force respect between them - we can only ask for it.
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Venture-Agent, Florida–Altamonte Springs
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Maybe I am just in a cynical mood, but when I do have to wonder if at least some of the red tape people want to avoid includes being forced to buy stuff from Paizo.With or without HeroLab you still have to buy everything. I've bought more Paizo product than I ever would have without HeroLab. With HeroLab I find some trait I like, then see I don't own the source, and then buy it for the one trait! Hopefully finding other cool stuff in the material after the fact.
For me, HeroLab means more money in Paizo's coffers.
Personally, I love Herolab. I never purchase an addon there without having a pdf or hard copy of the book, but that's just me. In my (now sanctioned) campaign mode Iron Gods game it is my way of keeping an eye on the players characters, and initiative tracker. At conventions, I only pulled it out once relying for the most part on the paper sheets, but at my last con between enlarge person, Inspire courage, haste, bless, prayer, and power attack I was glad to have Herolab.
As far as dice rollers are concerned, if someone wants to cheat they will with electronics or real dice. When I confronted a player, in private, at the Iron Gods game about dice dropping he quit rather then come back because he knew he was caught.
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Compared to other 'living' campaigns I've been involved with, the rules are remarkably 'light' for as long as PFS has been running.
There's a certain campaign out there where the 'house rules' for the campaign now are twice the length of the core material for said campaign...
Others have said it, it merits repeating, do *not* look at the bulk of the forum postings as the sum of the campaign.
If anything, forum posts are akin to the one person in twenty that actually answers the 'How are We Doing' survey at the bottom of receipts.
I've seen some amazing and fun role play as well as collaborative storytelling at conventions, on virtual table-tops, and in forum play-by-posts.
My suggestion? Try a few games at a local venue (convention, game shop) or online and then make the call?
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We could turn it into our own Con. We could call it CompromiseCon (yeah, the name is bad). Of course, it'd have to be held in the Midwest, 'cause everybody at the ends of each side need to meet in the middle.This is serendipity! I live in Minnesota. We actually have con of the north coming up soon. Which, like everything in Minnesota, is going to be the best thing ever, any where!
Edit: full discloser it will likely be below -20f.
Don't get me wrong, I've nothing but respect for the MN Crew, but I think we need somewhere that is a bit less of a, how can I put this delicately, a frozen wasteland?
Edit: Though come to think of it, we did get a couple of inches of snow in the Omaha area, and it was like 10-15f. Maybe this should be a springtime con?
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We could turn it into our own Con. We could call it CompromiseCon (yeah, the name is bad). Of course, it'd have to be held in the Midwest, 'cause everybody at the ends of each side need to meet in the middle.This is serendipity! I live in Minnesota. We actually have con of the north coming up soon. Which, like everything in Minnesota, is going to be the best thing ever, any where!
Edit: full discloser it will likely be below -20f.
Don't get me wrong, I've nothing but respect for the MN Crew, but I think we need somewhere that is a bit less of a, how can I put this delicately, a frozen wasteland?
Edit: Though come to think of it, we did get a couple of inches of snow in the Omaha area, and it was like 10-15f. Maybe this should be a springtime con?
I would rather be in MN in the winter than the Summer.
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I would rather be in MN in the winter than the Summer.We could turn it into our own Con. We could call it CompromiseCon (yeah, the name is bad). Of course, it'd have to be held in the Midwest, 'cause everybody at the ends of each side need to meet in the middle.This is serendipity! I live in Minnesota. We actually have con of the north coming up soon. Which, like everything in Minnesota, is going to be the best thing ever, any where!
Edit: full discloser it will likely be below -20f.
Don't get me wrong, I've nothing but respect for the MN Crew, but I think we need somewhere that is a bit less of a, how can I put this delicately, a frozen wasteland?
Edit: Though come to think of it, we did get a couple of inches of snow in the Omaha area, and it was like 10-15f. Maybe this should be a springtime con?
I think anyone that's spent any time in the midwest in the summer would agree with you there. I didn't walk to the food trucks at Gencon last year, I swam. Thanks, humidity!
That's why I suggest springtime, call it May. Nice, sunny, 60's. Not too hot, not too cold. Not too humid, not too dry.
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I'm just hopeful that the new ruling takes into account the current contradiction that Brock put into place by allowing a tablet of official pdfs to be fine to hand to a GM to read up on the rules for your character, but handing it to the GM as a character sheet? OMG DEVICE WORTH HUNDREDS OF DOLLARZZZZ WAT IF DROP?
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The alternative could be technological in derivation, though that might be a bit... dicier?Google hangouts and Roll20 (or other VTT), folks would have to buy their own beer (a negative) but could chime in from the warmth of their own home?
A noble effort, but drinking with people over the internet just isn't the same as sharing a drink with someone face-to-face.
Camaraderie! Beer! PFS! Beer! New friends! Old friends getting back together! Beer!
Explore! Beer! Cooperate!
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A noble effort, but drinking with people over the internet just isn't the same as sharing a drink with someone face-to-face.
Camaraderie! Beer! PFS! Beer! New friends! Old friends getting back together! Beer!
Explore! Beer! Cooperate!
My heart cries out to say "YES YES DO THIS THING!"
My wallet says with firm Abadarish mannerisms "If you do this thing, you will not only not be able to afford Paizo Con, you will not be able to afford Gen Con."
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I'm just hopeful that the new ruling takes into account the current contradiction that Brock put into place by allowing a tablet of official pdfs to be fine to hand to a GM to read up on the rules for your character, but handing it to the GM as a character sheet? OMG DEVICE WORTH HUNDREDS OF DOLLARZZZZ WAT IF DROP?
Sorry, guess you didn't get the memo. This thread is now about ConProMise (I thought if I capitalized it like that it would look less like Con Promise, whoch sounds like an entirely different con). We're reclaiming this thread.
No more bad feels in this thread. I'm putting my beer foot down.
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A noble effort, but drinking with people over the internet just isn't the same as sharing a drink with someone face-to-face.
Camaraderie! Beer! PFS! Beer! New friends! Old friends getting back together! Beer!
Explore! Beer! Cooperate!
My heart cries out to say "YES YES DO THIS THING!"
My wallet says with firm Abadarish mannerisms "If you do this thing, you will not only not be able to afford Paizo Con, you will not be able to afford Gen Con."
FINE! We don't need you! Surely there is some other dashing Tengu that can take your space?
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It isn't really the program that tends to be disruptive, but players. When I play, I always make sure I have a physical sheet, and make sure my players do when I GM. Whether they use them is up to them.
While I dislike HL, and would prefer people not use it for most of the reasons Nefreet linked to earlier, I agree that the issue is ultimately one of disruptive players rather than disruptive software. But anyone who has ever dealt with children (or immature adults) has ran into something like this:
GM to player using HL disruptively: "OK, I've asked you to stop being disruptive with HL several times already. Put it away."
Disruptive Player: "But he's using HL too! Points at non-disruptive player. That's not fair! You're picking on me! Whaaaaaaaah!!!!!"
GM response A: "He knows how to behave and use HL responsibly. You have not displayed that capability. Therefore, he may use it. Put yours away."
or
GM response B: "Fine. I'll be 'fair'. Mr. Responsible Player, please put HL away so that Mr. Irresponsible Player won't whine about things not being fair. Yes, I know this is unfair to you, Mr. Responsible Player. Please comply anyway, so we can get back to the game."
I'm with Andrew- we can't ban HL or other digital sheets from the PFS table, so long as the player has a paper copy available and isn't being disruptive.
But I can see the appeal of a blanket policy to avoid the hassle of allowing some players to use a thing while forbidding others from doing so. In the other long-running living campaign I play in, that's the basis for most of it's rule set. It's literally a matter of "This is why we can't have nice things". If some players are going to whine about not being able to use something (never mind that they are irresponsible and disruptive players), then no one is allowed to have the thing. I'd be sad to see PFS go that route, even if (on some levels) it would make things easier.
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FINE! We don't need you! Surely there is some other dashing Tengu that can take your space?
A noble effort, but drinking with people over the internet just isn't the same as sharing a drink with someone face-to-face.
Camaraderie! Beer! PFS! Beer! New friends! Old friends getting back together! Beer!
Explore! Beer! Cooperate!
My heart cries out to say "YES YES DO THIS THING!"
My wallet says with firm Abadarish mannerisms "If you do this thing, you will not only not be able to afford Paizo Con, you will not be able to afford Gen Con."
You rang?
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I'm just hopeful that the new ruling takes into account the current contradiction that Brock put into place by allowing a tablet of official pdfs to be fine to hand to a GM to read up on the rules for your character, but handing it to the GM as a character sheet? OMG DEVICE WORTH HUNDREDS OF DOLLARZZZZ WAT IF DROP?Sorry, guess you didn't get the memo. This thread is now about ConProMise (I thought if I capitalized it like that it would look less like Con Promise, whoch sounds like an entirely different con). We're reclaiming this thread.
No more bad feels in this thread. I'm putting my
beerfoot down.
If there's anything that I've learned about the MN lodge, there's no such thing as putting one's beer down until it's drained. I frequently wonder if I'm the only sober one in the lodge. >.>
Tindalen, if you need another GM, lemme know when things are gonna go down. I could probably run something of whatever flavor is desired.
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You rang?FINE! We don't need you! Surely there is some other dashing Tengu that can take your space?
A noble effort, but drinking with people over the internet just isn't the same as sharing a drink with someone face-to-face.
Camaraderie! Beer! PFS! Beer! New friends! Old friends getting back together! Beer!
Explore! Beer! Cooperate!
My heart cries out to say "YES YES DO THIS THING!"
My wallet says with firm Abadarish mannerisms "If you do this thing, you will not only not be able to afford Paizo Con, you will not be able to afford Gen Con."
Not you, bonehead! The other one!
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Not you, bonehead! The other one!You rang?FINE! We don't need you! Surely there is some other dashing Tengu that can take your space?
A noble effort, but drinking with people over the internet just isn't the same as sharing a drink with someone face-to-face.
Camaraderie! Beer! PFS! Beer! New friends! Old friends getting back together! Beer!
Explore! Beer! Cooperate!
My heart cries out to say "YES YES DO THIS THING!"
My wallet says with firm Abadarish mannerisms "If you do this thing, you will not only not be able to afford Paizo Con, you will not be able to afford Gen Con."
Fred Hayley! What have I told you about talking to people like that?
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Fred Hayley! What have I told you about talking to people like that?Not you, bonehead! The other one!You rang?FINE! We don't need you! Surely there is some other dashing Tengu that can take your space?
A noble effort, but drinking with people over the internet just isn't the same as sharing a drink with someone face-to-face.
Camaraderie! Beer! PFS! Beer! New friends! Old friends getting back together! Beer!
Explore! Beer! Cooperate!
My heart cries out to say "YES YES DO THIS THING!"
My wallet says with firm Abadarish mannerisms "If you do this thing, you will not only not be able to afford Paizo Con, you will not be able to afford Gen Con."
But, mom! She smells like dead stuff! And I'm pretty sure I saw her eat somebody while praising Urgathoa!
Edit: D'oh!
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Fred Hayley! What have I told you about talking to people like that?Not you, bonehead! The other one!You rang?FINE! We don't need you! Surely there is some other dashing Tengu that can take your space?
A noble effort, but drinking with people over the internet just isn't the same as sharing a drink with someone face-to-face.
Camaraderie! Beer! PFS! Beer! New friends! Old friends getting back together! Beer!
Explore! Beer! Cooperate!
My heart cries out to say "YES YES DO THIS THING!"
My wallet says with firm Abadarish mannerisms "If you do this thing, you will not only not be able to afford Paizo Con, you will not be able to afford Gen Con."
But, mom! She smells like dead stuff! And I'm pretty sure I saw her eat somebody while praising Urgathoa!
Edit: D'oh!
That's Venture-Captain Mom to you! I took you from Round Mountain, and so help me I can put you back!
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I am very perplexed how HeroLabs can cause arguments. It is just an interactive character sheet. In fact if you allow the print out of the character sheet from herolabs you have no reason to not allow the digital version since they are the exact same thing. What you see on the paper is what you see on the iPad just different format. Before the iPad version came out I used to add my most common buffs and print a bunch of versions of my character sheet out with those buffs included. Like I said, what you see on the iPad version is what you see on the character sheet.
I am not saying it does not have bugs, it does, none though that should be cause of an argument since they are minor bugs. I will go back to what I posted before on HeroLabs:
Most of the time it is reliable but on occasion there is a bug with it. If you know the software and the rules in question you can catch it and know how to work around it. In general you won't have problems but when yo do you need to know the rules don't let the program be your only knowledge source. Don't buy new software and expect to use it right away with out expecting issues (mostly user generated issues due to being unfamiliar with the program) and pissing people off. Learn the software first and use it in an environment that will allow you to. That way people/GMs who in general don't trust programs really have nothing to complain about.
Now If they are using HeroLabs as a source for the rules, that is a different story. You just tell them they can't and please pull out an approved rule source. I have done that in the past and will continue in the future. I know that HeroLabs biggest problem is not in it's ability to implement a bonus to it's character most of the time that is correct, and when it is wrong it is user error. It's biggest problem is not getting the actual text correct because they like short handing or re-wording the stuff they put in, that is the main reason you should never use it as a rules source, which you are not allowed to anyway.
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Steven, at least based on Nefreet's experience, there are a number of people who believe Hero Lab is infallible and will argue that HL is correct even when shown the book.
That is a people problem not a program problem.
Edit: And what exactly are they arguing? Because you can't use HeroLabs as a source for an argument, which is once again not a problem with HeoLabs but the person not following the rule that they need the authorized rule source.
