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And if your interested I have pdfs on my tablet, run as gm from a tablet. But when I sit to play it's paper all the way.....I prefer paper when I GM. But some of these classes are getting so complex, it's just easier to have an app help me manage all the options.Woah! It's almost like we have a large group of people from varied backgrounds, knowledges and abilities that are able to get together and enjoy the same pastime together!
Cheers to the good life my friends!
I know, right?!
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The trouble is, getting to another table isn't always an easy option. That leaves players expecting to be able to play, and having everything legally necessary to do so, may be faced with a barrier from an idiosyncratic GM or other player.
Exactly. While she's not legal yet (as I do not own one particular book for a trait I gave her) this character is otherwise 100% legal. However, I've been told (I don't remember the GM's name) that if I sat down with her at his table, he would not let me play her because a Bladebound magus must have a metal BLADE. The rules say "one-handed slashing weapon" and a whip is... guess what? A one-handed slashing weapon. So it's legal. However, no... he would not allow it because a bladebound magus must have a black blade, and a whip is not a blade.
Which, is actually why I haven't yet bothered to buy the book I need to make her legal... I'm not sure I even want to deal with the potential headache of having to call over a VC to tell this GM that he has no right to ban my character... then having to deal with the fact that the GM is going to more than likely be a total *** to me because I forced the issue... He hates my character, yet has no choice but to let me play her.
So yeah, GMs like that are why I have not and am not sure when I will bother to get the necessary PDFs to play this character.
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The trouble is, getting to another table isn't always an easy option. That leaves players expecting to be able to play, and having everything legally necessary to do so, may be faced with a barrier from an idiosyncratic GM or other player.Exactly. While she's not legal yet (as I do not own one particular book for a trait I gave her) this character is otherwise 100% legal. However, I've been told (I don't remember the GM's name) that if I sat down with her at his table, he would not let me play her because a Bladebound magus must have a metal BLADE. The rules say "one-handed slashing weapon" and a whip is... guess what? A one-handed slashing weapon. So it's legal. However, no... he would not allow it because a bladebound magus must have a black blade, and a whip is not a blade.
Which, is actually why I haven't yet bothered to buy the book I need to make her legal... I'm not sure I even want to deal with the potential headache of having to call over a VC to tell this GM that he has no right to ban my character... then having to deal with the fact that the GM is going to more than likely be a total *** to me because I forced the issue... He hates my character, yet has no choice but to let me play her.
So yeah, GMs like that are why I have not and am not sure when I will bother to get the necessary PDFs to play this character.
That's the kind of thing I have way more problem with a gm doing.
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That's the kind of thing I have way more problem with a gm doing.The trouble is, getting to another table isn't always an easy option. That leaves players expecting to be able to play, and having everything legally necessary to do so, may be faced with a barrier from an idiosyncratic GM or other player.Exactly. While she's not legal yet (as I do not own one particular book for a trait I gave her) this character is otherwise 100% legal. However, I've been told (I don't remember the GM's name) that if I sat down with her at his table, he would not let me play her because a Bladebound magus must have a metal BLADE. The rules say "one-handed slashing weapon" and a whip is... guess what? A one-handed slashing weapon. So it's legal. However, no... he would not allow it because a bladebound magus must have a black blade, and a whip is not a blade.
Which, is actually why I haven't yet bothered to buy the book I need to make her legal... I'm not sure I even want to deal with the potential headache of having to call over a VC to tell this GM that he has no right to ban my character... then having to deal with the fact that the GM is going to more than likely be a total *** to me because I forced the issue... He hates my character, yet has no choice but to let me play her.
So yeah, GMs like that are why I have not and am not sure when I will bother to get the necessary PDFs to play this character.
Yeah, imposing thier own restrictions that have no basis from RAW, is simply not fair to players who are trying to follow RAW.
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That's the kind of thing I have way more problem with a gm doing.
Right, but if Bethany is legal for PFS, shes' legal for PFS. Doesn't matter what the GM thinks of a "black blade" being a whip.
By the same token, if Hero Labs (and btw, I don't have a horse in this race, I can't afford Hero Labs on top of the books/PDFs themselves) is legal as long as you have a paper sheet, then it shouldn't matter what the GM thinks of Hero Lab any more than it matters what the GM thinks of a bladebound/kensai whip magus.
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I run games off my tablet and have all the PDFs on there, but all of my characters are on paper. That's not so much because I prefer paper as it is that I can't afford all of the add one I need for Herolab to actually build most of my characters in it. I like searching obscure books, some of which I have one character with one option from. So since I didn't buy Herolab add one as I bought PDFs, I'm too far behind. It's a shame, too, because my Warpriest/Oracle and my Investigator have a lot of situational buffs, and it's a bit of a chore to track them all. I like the flavor of the characters too much to stop playing them, though.
I do own the base Herolab, and I built my one Core campaign character in it. I like it as a tool. I can also say, that time I thought I lost my character notebook was not fun.
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That's the kind of thing I have way more problem with a gm doing.
Right, but if Bethany is legal for PFS, shes' legal for PFS. Doesn't matter what the GM thinks of a "black blade" being a whip.
By the same token, if Hero Labs (and btw, I don't have a horse in this race, I can't afford Hero Labs on top of the books/PDFs themselves) is legal as long as you have a paper sheet, then it shouldn't matter what the GM thinks of Hero Lab and more than it matters what the GM thinks of a bladebound/kensai whip magus.
Agreed.
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I run games off my tablet and have all the PDFs on there, but all of my characters are on paper. That's not so much because I prefer paper as it is that I can't afford all of the add one I need for Herolab to actually build most of my characters in it. I like searching obscure books, some of which I have one character with one option from. So since I didn't buy Herolab add one as I bought PDFs, I'm too far behind. It's a shame, too, because my Warpriest/Oracle and my Investigator have a lot of situational buffs, and it's a bit of a chore to track them all. I like the flavor of the characters too much to stop playing them, though.
I do own the base Herolab, and I built my one Core campaign character in it. I like it as a tool. I can also say, that time I thought I lost my character notebook was not fun.
The last paragraph really hits home with why I avoid Hero Lab.I just do feel like buying my books twice.
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That's the kind of thing I have way more problem with a gm doing.
Right, but if Bethany is legal for PFS, shes' legal for PFS. Doesn't matter what the GM thinks of a "black blade" being a whip.
By the same token, if Hero Labs (and btw, I don't have a horse in this race, I can't afford Hero Labs on top of the books/PDFs themselves) is legal as long as you have a paper sheet, then it shouldn't matter what the GM thinks of Hero Lab any more than it matters what the GM thinks of a bladebound/kensai whip magus.
Agreed, as long as I see a paper copy when I ask, I'm good.
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The last paragraph really hits home with why I avoid Hero Lab.I just do feel like buying my books twice.
Yeah, that's why I won't mention the name of the game, but there is another game I play where the publisher themselves authorized a character creation software that is $15. They sell it on their website, then all updates are free.
Would be cool if Paizo could do something similar, although I'd have no problem with the updates being tied to PDF ownership. Buy their program, buy the PDF, your account is flagged for using the PDF in their program.
Organized Play Coordinator
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So I read this thread yesterday and thought all was well. People had answered and everything looked good. That was at page 1. Coming back to it today, I waded through the next 5 pages of posts, including those removed by Chris Lambertz, some of which disturbed me greatly.
I would remind folks that we are all on the same team and our goal is for everyone to have the best experience possible. We have Community Guidelines and remembering them when you post is in the best interests of all.
I'm asking everyone to take a step back. The team hears your issues and we are evaluating the commentary. We are looking at the situation from all angles, considering prior rulings as well as field reports, and how they affect PFS. We will issue an official ruling on Friday.
Thank you for your patience.
Venture-Captain, Minnesota
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I am really sorry that this has come to the point of requiring a ruling from the team.
Can't we just ask people to be polite about their distractions (use their digital sheet if they must, but don't go playing video games or watching youtube?)
We are a very diverse group, and usually well-behaved. Let's embrace our diversity -- in my location, I have handwritten sheets. I have printed out sheets. I have hero lab on tablets. It's all at the same table, and it all works great.
Let's take a step back, breathe, and think a bit. What we have in common is greater than our differences. Can't we agree to disagree, and just move on?
Hmm
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EDITED to ADD: Mulgar is right. Tone is awfully hard to read over the internet.
One of the things that helps this forum is that so many of us have met each other in person at conventions, or played together online in PFS. Most of us aren't anonymous. But it's still the internet, and it's hard to convey tone and so it's easy to cause offense.
I always suggest to people that if you get angry, that's when it's most important to count to ten and step away from the keyboard. The argument can wait for later, when you've calmed down enough to express your point in a kinder fashion.
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Venture-Agent, Ohio—Columbus
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I use HeroLab on a Surface Pro. I also have PDFs of all of my sources used for my character on the Surface. I take notes with the stylus and OneNote during play. I have a hand-painted mini for my character and I roll dice hand picked to represent said character. I also print out a copy ONCE per character level and leave it in my folder along with my chronicle sheets.
If asked to provide a paper copy, which is the current rule, I can and will. But under no circumstances am I going to use scratch paper and pen to track my spells, buffs (I run a cleric and a bard), hit points, temp mods, or my character as a whole. I use HeroLab because it's a good product and does what it claims to do, and is licensed by Paizo. I don't try to use it in place of a rules referrence (I have those separately, in PDFs) and I'm not using it as a "crutch". It's a time saving convenience. Refusing to seat me because of a program on a device smaller than my core rulebook is a dealbreaker. THAT most assuredly falls under the "don't be a jerk" clause.
I very deliberately closed my browser when I first read this thread yesterday when it was still 1 page. After catching up, I'm no more likely to post something non-offensive. So I'll just +1 TwoWolves' post, and add that in addition I also carry around 2 backup portable chargers to ensure I never have power problems. If someone tries to turn me away from a table merely for using HL to play from...well, I promised myself I wouldn't post nasty things, so I'll stop there.
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The sane, rational, and germane part of my first post was removed with the inflammatory quote of another user, so I'll reiterate the part that bears repeating:
I've had to inform several players of the "paper copy required" rule, up to and including VOs, and I've yet to have a bad response once I explain why the rule is in place and that it can be found in the forums. I haven't kicked anyone from the table over it because most hadn't heard about it and the next time I saw them, they were in compliance. Every one of them still ran the character electronically, but they had a paper copy for reference purposes, which I've even asked for on occasion (looking at spell lists, non-wearable gear, languages, etc. that were relevant to the scenario). It has never been a disruption at any of my tables while GMing or playing.
I think it's reasonable for audit purposes and balances liability concerns well.
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I do not know if having a rule just for conventions is a viable option, but that seems to be the main place where physical sheets are needed. I could make an argument that most of the set rules are mainly needed for conventions.
I'd argue that I mainly only play at conventions and that's specifically where I want to use my digital character sheet. Again, I'm happy to have a paper one with me. I just don't want to be turned away or targeted for audit just because I use HeroLab.
Heck, Lonewolf is at PaizoCon with HeroLab printing character sheets outside the society room.
As a side note, I've never had any problems with any GM's at any tables, even with HeroLab running on my iPad... even at the table of one of the anti-Herolabers from this thread.
Well... there was this one time that TOZ killed my 10 year old...
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I do not know if having a rule just for conventions is a viable option, but that seems to be the main place where physical sheets are needed. I could make an argument that most of the set rules are mainly needed for conventions.
I disagree.
I've been in a group where it was just a handful of friends meeting at someone's house every week - my first year of PFS was mostly just that, with the occasional conventions in and around. So I can see how a small group might not need the same rules as a convention.
But now I live in an area with a ton of PFS at local game stores, and 3-5 tables being played at many game days, including lots of random stranger showing up. I don't see how conventions could need different rules than those game days.
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Yes, yes he did... thanks to a PAX goblin bag boon... PAX has never had something so good again.Well... there was this one time that TOZ killed my 10 year old......he got better.
I remember that table! That was, what, 3 years ago? The Disappeared. Yeah, we were playing up.
Great 10-year-old to have at the table.
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Had some time to read through the rest of these and post the remainder of my thoughts. First, as I asked back on page 1, let's distinguish the arguments that are being made. People keep conflating multiple different issues as one:
Digital vs. Physical character sheets
There are prominent posters here that sent me nasty messages (or otherwise talked negatively about my involvement elsewhere) after Michael Brock ruled that physical character sheets were required. The thing is, I had nothing to do with that decision. In fact, the most heated thread on the matter took place one month before I even joined PFS. Personally, I have no problem with digital character sheets. I have no problem with handling electronic devices. When Mike made his ruling, I spent some time analyzing my thoughts on it. I understood the legal issue, and shrugged. That wasn't my fight, hence why I even clearly stated I would not be participating in those arguments. It's a different issue from the one that this thread devolved into.
Electronic devices at the table
Anyone who knows me knows that I'm glued to my phone. If I have two minutes to spare I'm either 1) on Google News, 2) reading the forums, 3) checking the weather, 4) perusing Instagram, 5) texting, 6) SnapChatting, 7) researching character ideas, or 8) checking my teeth in its reflection. Furthermore, I wholeheartedly endorse having a phone/tablet/laptop over lugging 50 pounds of books. I almost exclusively purchase PDFs myself, and I even purchased PDFs of hardbacks I already own just so I could show (using my phone) that my characters were legal. If I made the claim that I was anti-electronic devices, I'd be a hypocrite. I have never made such a claim.
Blanket ban
Someone upthread asked me to consider HeroLab users on a case-by-case basis. In practice, this is largely what I do locally. I feel that for most groups the rules get lax when comparing Thursday night gaming to the Big Con. Nobody brings their resources, and everyone trusts one another. But when you're amongst your local players, your friends, you're going to act differently and let different behaviors slide. One player is unemployed and can't afford to print anything; I let him use HeroLab at the table. One player researches his characters ten times more thoroughly than I and understands the rules at least as good; I let him use d20pfsrd, because I know he knows when they're wrong. Everyone knows how anti-HeroLab I am, and yet there's usually at least one tablet running it when I'm GMing. And everyone knows that when HeroLab messes up (which is often), I'm quick to point it out.
HeroLab really is that bad
I feel my experiences are beyond anecdotal (which is not a claim I make lightly). I GM at least once a week, quite a bit less than I used to, and yet still literally every game HeroLab causes problems. It *is* disruptive. Whether it's spending 15 seconds toggling Inspire Courage at level 1, wondering why a modifier is as low or as high as it is, simply forgetting how to use it, distracting your neighbor by asking a question, or trusting in their rules when they're blatantly wrong, HeroLab gives me no small amount of grief every game. This isn't a "personal crusade" against Lone Wolf or HeroLab, as people have repeatedly claimed. My animosity towards using the program at the table is because it is disruptive. I feel that when people make the claim that it isn't, it's either disingenuous, they're blind to it, or they're an outlier.
When I'm GMing for friends, and the rules are lax, I'll let it slide. We're usually in no hurry to finish a game. Mentally I just prepare myself that the game is going to run longer and we're going to go into tangents because of the distraction.
When I'm GMing at Conventions, however, the problem worsens. In addition to all the regular distractions, now HeroLab causes arguments. HeroLab is very bad at rules interpretations (as anyone who constantly reports the myriad bugs will acknowledge), and when I'm GMing for a group of strangers, I have to prove myself right. I shouldn't have to compete as GM with software. PaizoCon 2014 was exceptionally bad, both with disruptions and with arguments. When it clicked that HeroLab at Conventions was the problem, I started disallowing its use at the table.
It's your table; run it
My most recent and longest running VC upheld a pretty chill, open-minded policy of "It's your table; run it". He trusted us to do what was right, because we understood the rules of Pathfinder and the ideas of Organized Play. As long as you made the table fun and the adventure awesome, he supported it. If you made a judgment call, he'd back you. Kind of a small government attitude. I personally don't think a sweeping ruling regarding this is good. Look at the last time it happened, and the backlash and animosity it still generates. I'm in favor of GMs making calls and moving on with the game. That's all I've ever done, and it's the same stance that guides my decision here.
"Legality" of HeroLab
Those claiming that I am disallowing a PFS legal source are sorely mistaken. HeroLab is no more legal than allowing d20pfsrd or the Critical Hit Mastery deck at the table. Peruse through the Additional Resources document, the Guide, or the FAQ; you will find no reference to this as a legal tool. I am 100% within my rights to ask that players not use it. They are 100% within their rights to find another table. Same thing for any third party product.
For the record, I also ban those hexagonal dice trays at my tables. As with HeroLab, my experience has been that they're disruptive. As with HeroLab, I've encountered cheaters. I ceased allowing them since PacifiCon 2014 after someone cheated to obtain a Boon (which the person handing out the Boon brought to my attention after the game, allowing everyone else to roll for another Boon).
In short, I'm only obligated to ban or prohibit something if IME it has caused problems or proven to be disruptive. HeroLab ranks as the most disruptive factor when I GM.
If Paizo made...
I would absolutely love if Paizo made their own version of HeroLab. I would 100% support it as a Paizo product, and would probably convert everything I own to its use (as most HeroLab users do now). I would support it because I'd know the rules were accurate and it wouldn't create arguments, and because its purchase supported the game I love so much. Yes, the lag time would still be in effect (perhaps something that can be learned from HeroLab's errors), but for all the other positives I'd be willing to overlook it; even at Conventions.
HeroLab character sheets
Lastly (though I am probably forgetting something), I'm fine with HeroLab character sheets, whether they're printed on paper or as PDFs on a tablet. Heck, I don't care if your character is written in crayon, so long a it's legible. But since people often just skim over long posts I figured I'd mention it one more time.
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I've never had any problems with any GM's at any tables, even with HeroLab running on my iPad... even at the table of one of the anti-Herolabers from this thread.
That was the Convention where I started implementing my HeroLab ban. I remember your son wildshaping into some sort of ape to distract some guards, even.
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Venture-Captain, Minnesota
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Nefreet, I really respect you as a GM and as a player. You're one of my favorite people on these boards.
Here's why I love Hero Lab: my math is atrocious. It really is. You've seen me GM. The only thing that saves me in PbP is that the Paizo dice roller does all the calculations. Doing math in my head sucks. In live games, I frequently just announce the numbers that I'm adding up because then other players will help me calculate the final total faster and more accurately than I could.
I don't know why I can't do math in game -- maybe it's the pressure? But if I weren't so open about my inability to do basic addition while at a gaming table, I'd be really hampered. I like that Hero Lab lets people do the calculations on the fly, allowing them to concentrate on the action rather than on the raw numbers.
Which is more disruptive? Me constantly asking other players for math help, me making math mistakes that I shouldn't or me using a tool?
That said... Thanks for explaining your position better. It helps me understand where you're coming from.
Hugs,
Hmm
PS Gang, sometimes good posts take time to brew... Let's not berate Nefreet for not being able to clarify his views yesterday.
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intelligent, thought out, logical argumentIf you had just abandoned all real life obligations and posted this yesterday...
I agree with most of your points, but as many will likely say after me in one tone or another... Why didn't you elaborate your feelings initially and save the pain that will come?
Back on page 1 I linked to my previous grievances with HeroLab (figuring that was adequate), stated that this is a recurring argument (which it is), and responded to Andrew's overly aggressive (capitalized, exclamation point) claim with my continued policy. Overnight the thread blew up, which I didn't realize until stuck in traffic this afternoon (and unable to post anything at length).
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I've been on the fence about all the red tape, paperwork, restrictions, and requirements one has to go through to begin PFS play, and this forum thread has just convinced me that it's not worth it. Just something to think about, I'm sure there are others lurking around like me that have just been put off of PFS/convention play.
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You think this is a game?For the record, I also ban those hexagonal dice trays at my tables.Now I'm having a hard time believing this isn't all an elaborate joke.
I've never experienced Herolab as being disruptive in a game, however, I've never had more than one person using it at a table that I played at, and never one that I have GMed at. (In person, anyway. Play-by-post games may well be using Herolab, and that's really a good thing.)
Digital copies of character sheets should be allowed, I think, as long as they're PDF forms on tablets or something. Save trees! I use a lot of paper printing out characters. I recycle it all, but if I had a usable tablet I'd probably try to use digital sheets instead.
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At this point I'm going to be patient and wait for Tonya's ruling on Friday.
But suffice to say, I have had more disruptions at the table from players who have trouble with simple math (not you HMM) than I have due to Hero labs. And when those players started using Hero Labs, the disruptions decreased.
We both GM a ton, so our anecdotal evidence is roughly equal.
So all things being equal, the answer currently, is banning a valid choice because of your personal anecdotal evidence is poor form.
You say you are more justified at a convention, and I say that's when you are least justified in making up your own rules.
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I've been on the fence about all the red tape, paperwork, restrictions, and requirements one has to go through to begin PFS play, and this forum thread has just convinced me that it's not worth it. Just something to think about, I'm sure there are others lurking around like me that have just been put off of PFS/convention play.
As several of us have already said in this and other "flame war" threads here, these forums don't reflect real life. As I've said, I've played/GMed over 200 tables of PFS in 4 states and a few PbP games, and I've only seen an argument about someone using a character sheet on an electronic device once. And that was a guy who brought his character sheet on a laptop that he couldn't turn on, so I wouldn't let him play the character entirely from memory.
The key thing to remember: These forums aren't for Pathfinder Society players and GMs. These forums are for people whose hobby is arguing about things on the internet. 99.9% of what actually happens in PFS has nothing to do with what happens on these forums.
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Venture-Captain, Minnesota
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I've been on the fence about all the red tape, paperwork, restrictions, and requirements one has to go through to begin PFS play, and this forum thread has just convinced me that it's not worth it. Just something to think about, I'm sure there are others lurking around like me that have just been put off of PFS/convention play.
Delete, you've drawn the wrong lesson from this thread.
The reason it got so acrimonious is that the people here are passionate, and all love playing PFS. Here's what I love about PFS -- everyone I've met wants to be at the table. Everyone. They're focused, engaged, awesome. My home games pale in comparison.
Give PFS a chance, especially locally. When you get people on the internet, they argue. When you get them at a gaming table, they game.
Hmm
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I see players and GMs making mistakes, not adding a bonus, asking questions AT EVERY table I've played. Most of those people were pen and paper people. You see it constantly in the pbp boards. It's a complex game.
I recommend everyon HAS to use HeroLab, then at least the errors would be CONSISTENT. Without HeroLab you're faced with 1000's of different interpretations, with the errors cropping up all over the random place.
So, I hope the ruling is that HeroLab is now REQUIRED! (Not really, because I want everyone to play and have fun, even if they are using error-ridden hand made sheets)
I had fun at that table with you Nafreet, the tech was not a distraction (in that there was no YouTube, etc). If we played the characters wrong it was not because of the tech. Again, fun game, but I dread some future confrontation about my chosen character sheet because of fear of an errant or forgotten bonus. It's a game, let's all just enjoy it.
I am slowly getting more of my family members to play. HeroLab allows them to wade through books full of rules more easily. If I said they HAD to learn all this, HAD to do it manually, or they may get AUDITED and have to use a pregen or get kicked off a table, they'd just throw in the towel now. Doesn't sound like a good way to spread the hobby.
And if Paizo recreated their own rules in their own software, don't tell me you think it could be done without having the same issues HeroLab does. There would be errors, there would be misinterpretations. It would be the same. But again less errors than comparing to hand created sheets.