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I will not allow 'true' digital dice; I've had them in the past, and the ones I have observed and tested don't pass the CHI Square test.
I *will* allow the physical d20s which light up; then again, I have a legally blind player who makes it to a few of my conventions that uses HeroLab on an iPad, a magnifying glass to read his iPad, and and that 'electronic' d20.
-- S.
If dice rollers give a wide range of results. I let it go. I prefer players not use them. But as long as it all feels,legit, I don't ever really say anything.
If the numbers are always high, then I'll ask them to use dice.
I allow commercial software dice rollers, but I won't allow homebrew or excel sheets. I know too many ways to cheat. Like a roller that normally rolls fairly, but then always rolls high when there's a touch in one corner of the app.
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It is interesting that we read in the forums all the time about extremest players/GMs exerting their will on the table, banning things will-nilly, forcing the GMs to take it, being a general nuisance and pain in the arse. However, in actual play few, if anyone, ever actually complains of actually having these things done to them, whether it be [really] wearing a re-roll shirt, or having their tablet banned, or not being able to play their favorite character because the GM hates that class/race/whatever. We all seem to have pleasant, fun, cooperative games. Its only when we get behind the "monitor of hate" and the "keyboard of anonymity" that these problems arise. With the hundreds of thousands of tables that have been played, I would posit that these types of issues occur less than 1/10th of 1% of the time. Certainly nothing to be afraid of nor have the need to take undue action against.
Explore! Report! Cooperate!
Perhaps, but willingly accepting a more strict set of rules does not technically break the rules any more than a player who chooses to gimp their character vs. optimizing them. If a GM says, no digital devices and the players all agree, are they breaking the rules? What if a player says no digital devices and everyone including the GM agrees? Can a GM ban a gunslinger if all the players are okay with that? What if the players also hate gunslingers and don't want to play with them? While you cannot allow anything specifically banned by the rules, I posit that individual tables of players can ban whatever additional things they want, even if we don't like it. If a GM and five players say no gunslingers and a gunslinger sits at the table, we can talk to them about inclusiveness all we want, but in the end, they can just "cancel" the table and run it as scheduled on their own. Nothing really changes other than the organizer has to try and find a new table for the gunslinger. Its inconvenient as hell, and you might be inclined not to invite that GM to volunteer for you again, but sometimes its hard to say if the rules are technically being broken or people's personal preferences for what is "GoodRightFun" for them are being exercised.
If it really is as inconvenient as hell, then maybe some people need to lighten up in favor of the Society's spirit of inclusiveness. After all, if the player coming to the table with the disliked class isn't a prior offender against actual PFS rules or a known disruption, what justification does anybody have to exclude him or her? I don't think there is any for any game in a public venue or convention.
I understand that people can try to exercise a crowd veto for any reason they please, but that doesn't make what they're doing right for the Society. I would hope that they'd be the ones held responsible for the inconvenience and not the player hoping to be included.
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However, in actual play few, if anyone, ever actually complains of actually having these things done to them, whether it be [really] wearing a re-roll shirt, or having their tablet banned, or not being able to play their favorite character because the GM hates that class/race/whatever.
That would be due to the fact that I have already had ample warning not to play at Nefreet's table.
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If it really is as inconvenient as hell, then maybe some people need to lighten up in favor of the Society's spirit of inclusiveness. After all, if the player coming to the table with the disliked class isn't a prior offender against actual PFS rules or a known disruption, what justification does anybody have to exclude him or her? I don't think there is any for any game in a public venue or convention.
I understand that people can try to exercise a crowd veto for any reason they please, but that doesn't make what they're doing right for the Society. I would hope that they'd be the ones held responsible for the inconvenience and not the player hoping to be included.
I don't necessarily disagree with you, just saying that where one persons fun starts, anothers might end. Sometimes it can be a challenge to decide when the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the one or when the one is being treated unfairly to the point of punishing the many.
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If their dice always roll high, would you make them use a dice roller? :)
(Just want to point out that the power of the human brains ability to find patterns in random numbers is surpassed only by its inaccuracy.)
what about those of us whose dice (almost) always roll low?
Just give you a paper shredder?
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That would be due to the fact that I have already had ample warning not to play at Nefreet's table.
We all do now. The trouble is, getting to another table isn't always an easy option. That leaves players expecting to be able to play, and having everything legally necessary to do so, may be faced with a barrier from an idiosyncratic GM or other player.
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That would be due to the fact that I have already had ample warning not to play at Nefreet's table.
True, but two things to think about. First, not everyone knows who Nefreet is. That is a Paizo handle, so unless you* know his name or know him personally, you wouldn't know to avoid his table. Hell, you cannot even be sure if he is a he or a she. Second, and more importantly, does Nefreet actually do what is stated at the table? Where are the players who have had the proverbial digital carpet pulled out from under them? Is his** post just trolling? Maybe just a rant? Hard to know at this point.
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what about those of us whose dice (almost) always roll low?
Depends if that is just a perceived "always" like when you way, "every time I go to McDonald's drive through, they mess up my order." Not really, you just remember the fails because it elicits an emotional response. Now, if you have actually tested the die/dice and found that they statistically role a deviation (or more) below the average and continue to use them, I have to question your sanity ;-)
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I use HeroLab on a Surface Pro. I also have PDFs of all of my sources used for my character on the Surface. I take notes with the stylus and OneNote during play. I have a hand-painted mini for my character and I roll dice hand picked to represent said character. I also print out a copy ONCE per character level and leave it in my folder along with my chronicle sheets.
If asked to provide a paper copy, which is the current rule, I can and will. But under no circumstances am I going to use scratch paper and pen to track my spells, buffs (I run a cleric and a bard), hit points, temp mods, or my character as a whole. I use HeroLab because it's a good product and does what it claims to do, and is licensed by Paizo. I don't try to use it in place of a rules referrence (I have those separately, in PDFs) and I'm not using it as a "crutch". It's a time saving convenience. Refusing to seat me because of a program on a device smaller than my core rulebook is a dealbreaker. THAT most assuredly falls under the "don't be a jerk" clause.
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what about those of us whose dice (almost) always roll low?Depends if that is just a perceived "always" like when you way, "every time I go to McDonald's drive through, they mess up my order." Not really, you just remember the fails because it elicits an emotional response. Now, if you have actually tested the die/dice and found that they statistically role a deviation (or more) below the average and continue to use them, I have to question your sanity ;-)
I do tend to have erratic dice luck. My rolls have been wonky to the point that my players made me openly roll until I proved it.
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Second, and more importantly, does Nefreet actually do what is stated at the table? Where are the players who have had the proverbial digital carpet pulled out from under them? Is his** post just trolling? Maybe just a rant? Hard to know at this point.
There was actually a poster here in the forums who said he would ban Gunslingers in his PFS games and/or do everything in his power to kill the PC. He started a huge argument similar to this one. In actuality he does none of those things, though he does really hate the Gunslinger.
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Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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If their dice always roll high, would you make them use a dice roller? :)
(Just want to point out that the power of the human brains ability to find patterns in random numbers is surpassed only by its inaccuracy.)
what about those of us whose dice (almost) always roll low?
I make them stick to physical dice, and I keep the whole session in combat so that they can't take ten.
(joke, just in case anyone wondered)
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*wades into the thread, crawling through muddy trenches*
"Hey! Anyone seen Rasputin?" shouts the gnome!
But seriously, wouldn't it be great if there was like an official PFS Character sheet app for tablets and phones with inventory tracking sheets and everything! It doesn't like generate characters or anything for you, just a simple character sheet! Someone should get on that and give me full credit I say!
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I do tend to have erratic dice luck. My rolls have been wonky to the point that my players made me openly roll until I proved it.
I always roll out in the open, whether I'm GMing or not. And as a GM, I insist that the players do, too.
We actually had a player locally who was suspected of faking die rolls at one point, because he kept rolling well. I actually sat next to him one time when we were both players and made a point of watching him, and his rolls were legit, even though he had good luck that night.
Of course, that was the same guy who tried to claim his character sheet was on a laptop that couldn't be turned on, so who knows what was really going on. He has a reputation for being the disruptive weirdo of the local gaming scene.
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It does if you can't show a paper copy when requested.That is on the GM and the player at that point, that still doesn't give a GM the right to refuse to sit a player that is using HeroLabThis does not jibe with Mike Brock's statements on the matter. How do you reconcile this?His intention is that if the GM asks to see your character sheet, you must be able to hand him a character sheet, on paper, legible and up to date.
(The below isn't against you, but a general explanation)
What I do at the table during gameplay is completely separate from that.
If I keep track of hit points in pencil, dry erase, rolldown dice, abacus, or HeroLab during the session, that's my business.
If buffs are managed by handouts (my mesmerist), standup notecards (a local cavalier/paladin/buff monster), Paizo's Buff Cards set next to the battlefield, someone reminding every round, or me checking a box in HeroLab, that's my business.
The only requirement is: I must be able to hand the GM a paper character sheet for them to audit. I must be able to provide the GM with my calculations and numbers for whatever I'm doing (DC on a spell, Save, Attack). Anything beyond that is saying 'you're playing wrong' with no rules to back it.
As far as I'm aware (and other posters have stated) HeroLab is a legal form of character sheet -- just not a legal source document for providing referencesTechnically, by Brock, it is not if the GM would like to look at your sheet. They could accept it (many will), but they are perfectly valid in saying 'I do not want to handle your $200-$1200 electronic device, please hand me a piece of paper'.Your opinion
Mine differs
Well, my opinion is backed up by the campaign coordinator, and your is backed up by what wxactly?
People not following the rules are where problems come from.
If you set at my table, bring your paper if you want to continue setting. Your call.....
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Uh, your interpretation is not backed up by anything. Of that is you are saying I can't continue to use my tablet after showing you my printed copy.
I think he's talking about if the player only has HL and no paper copy. Which is correct, though finding a way to work with the person so nobody has to be sent away is of course preferable.
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An anti-device poster on this thread (to be unnamed) has said in different threads that he would not only not allow digital-hero lab, but would audit and specifically try to ban hero lab printed character sheets as well.
In his home/store games swell, I'll go to another store.
At paizocon, gen con I will as non-desruptively as possible take it to management. A mindset such as that in a GM is in and of itself disruptive.
I use hero lab on an iPad. My supporting books (all purchased as PDF) are all on said iPad (and phone). I have printed character sheets, all paper chronicles (backed up on iPad). Real dice, and miniatures. All of this is allowed by PFS rules.
The amount of inconsistencies in the paper generated sheets must be enormous.
I have said this before, but I will start carrying a hand written sheet in crayon so it doesn't look like it was generated by herolab. I will even add mistakes to the calculations to make it look legit.
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Uh, your interpretation is not backed up by anything. Of that is you are saying I can't continue to use my tablet after showing you my printed copy.Show me a paper copy, then feel free to use you device. And that is backed up......
I'd have no problem complying thanks for the clarification.
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