Hey, I was just wondering what everyone's general thought was on the idea of giving fighters combat manoeuvre feats for free. as it is right now, the only thing a fighter is good at his smashing things and its outclassed at that by the barbarian.
my idea was to give it 'improved x' for free at certain levels ignoring the prerequisites (power attack and combat expertise.' and then at later levels giving out 'greater x'
what do you think, I think that doing this would actually improve the versatility of the fighter.
There is a plethora of threads on how to fix the fighter. Just do a Search on them.
Your solution doesn't address the out of combat issue that is one of the primary "Caster/Martial disparity" issues.
Nice that you're trying something, though!
As the fighter already has lots of feat and his main problem is not combat I would just point fighters towards the dirty fighting feat and work on their main problems, which is out of combat versatility.
Besides that I'd not give them the improved manoeuvre feats for free, but I'd give them the upgrade feats for those feats they buy with bonus feat slots once they qualify. They have to invest but the gain is really worth it.
Edit: And what Otherwhere said about the Search.
Our group tried out this version of the fighter and liked it *gratuitous homebrew*
This was made for the stamina system introduced in Unchained.
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Sorry - very early here, so my answer may be a bit brusque. Not my intention.
The versatility the fighter needs is in non-combat areas. So giving them "free maneuvers" doesn't address this, it just gives them one more thing to do in combat - where they already excel.
Give them more Skill points, and improved saves, and now you're starting to address it.
A Wizard should fear a Fighter as much as the other way around, not the current: "I hope he doesn't attack my WILL save since that's where I'm vulnerable!" A Wizard should think twice about attacking a Fighter in any way, unless they have combat-oriented mooks of their own to handle them when & if the spell(s) fail.
Sorry - very early here, so my answer may be a bit brusque. Not my intention.
The versatility the fighter needs is in non-combat areas. So giving them "free maneuvers" doesn't address this, it just gives them one more thing to do in combat - where they already excel.
Give them more Skill points, and improved saves, and now you're starting to address it.
A Wizard should fear a Fighter as much as the other way around, not the current: "I hope he doesn't attack my WILL save since that's where I'm vulnerable!" A Wizard should think twice about attacking a Fighter in any way, unless they have combat-oriented mooks of their own to handle them when & if the spell(s) fail.
personally, I don't see how they excel in combat. theres not much they can do that a barbarian can do and do better. thats why I figured they could do with more battle versatility.
I agree with you about the rest though, I think they should get 4 skill ranks per hit die and as for the poor will saves, I know that the Oder of the Ronin cavalier has some pretty good will protection. maybe the fighter could do with poaching some of those abilities.
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Well, in terms of official options to help the Fighter out there's Advanced Weapon Training (towards the bottom of the page), which really helps out in a lot of ways.
In terms of homebrew here is my Fighter fix.
The two can even be combined relatively easily (just ignore Armed Bravery and Weapon Specialist).
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Fixing the fighter:
- Use Weapon Master's Handbook
- Make Armor Training straight up grant +1 Dodge instead of Max Dex
- Bravery grants +1 Will instead of +1 fear resist
- 4 + INT skills
Done.
Later today I'll post and share an article from my blog about what I use as third party solutions. Besides that here are the house rules I'm using that actually change Fighters:
Fighters gain Combat Stamina as a bonus feat at 4th level.
The class feature Weapon Training begins at 1st level and continues to scale normally at 5th level. This means that Advanced Weapon Training can be taken starting at 5th level and archetypes that replace Weapon Training 1, 2, 3 or 4 begin one step earlier.
The Fighter class as described in ‘The Talented Fighter’ product also gains Combat Stamina.
Talents from ‘The Talented Fighter’ can be taken in place of bonus combat feats by any Fighter.
Fighters may take a new Advanced Weapon Training option; Advanced Action: The Fighter reduces Stamina costs by an amount equal to his Weapon Training bonus (Minimum 0)
These changes don't 'solve' anything themselves but enable a few solutions.
They work perfectly fine at standing still and full attacking... So if every enemy acts like a stationary HP-bag Fighters can in fact be pretty awesome... actual combat, however, isn't always that simple, and when it isn't, Fighters struggle.
...That said, the Weapon Master's Handbooks is really nice.
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I'm contemplating a small fix for the fighter: instead of starting with two traits, give the option of taking the Cosmopolitan feat. This feat grants proficiency in two languages and any two mental skills as class skills.
This would be a useful boost for the role playing side of the fighter. (There are probably other classes that would benefit from this.)
Fixing the fighter:
- Use Weapon Master's Handbook
- Make Armor Training straight up grant +1 Dodge instead of Max Dex
- Bravery grants +1 Will instead of +1 fear resist
- 4 + INT skills
Done.
...so mostly 'use weapon master's handbook'?
Since most of those are advanced weapon training options- bravery to will, getting 2 pseudo skill points, and a thing for getting your weapon to grant shield bonus (works for your basic 2 hander at least).
Plus much, much more.
Might take a while to get all of that, but you can choose what you feel you need more immediately.
I think it was determined that feats are the problem with the fighter.
I've heard good things about the Weapon Master's handbook (link to some material?)
I future Armor Master's handbook would be nice.
The stamina option in unchained as a fighter only thing seems good (the other martial equivalents barely want feats so why bother giving them stamina?)
I don't have a problem with fighter performance from levels 1-9 in campaigns of reasonable difficulty. After that I just find the issues insurmountable to my fun.
The problem is that those options are almost mandatory. Having a true choice to make would make it more interesting and compelling.
The problem is that those options are almost mandatory. Having a true choice to make would make it more interesting and compelling.
My expectations are just not that high. If a class has one build that I like, then I consider it a good class.
Here's a question for anyone who cares to answer. Never mind the mechanics, but describe in a narrative sense one or more possible things a fighter should be able to do out of combat. Not all fighters need have these same abilities, but they should be good examples. OK, not a question but I'm still curious what people think.
I struggle with this kind of fighter discussion, because in the games I play in, the people who contribute the most out of combat are the people who role-play. The character's class has little to do with it, unless the player has a specific motive in mind and the GM calls for a specific skill check (and even then it's skills, not class).
Use skills. No need to have a particular class feature that enables them. My barbarian is a good tracker without having the track skill.
A fighter is not a soldier, it's not a mercenary, it's not a swashbuckler, it's not a pirate, it's not an assassin. It's all of them.
If it had enough available skills, then it would be fine.
I think that the "make your own type of fighter" customization that a lot of feats allows should also apply to skills though. Perhaps start with no real Class Skills, but you can pick up "Packages".
Like:
Dervish Kit - You add Acrobatics, Perform and Ride to your class skills.
Tracker Kit - You add Knowledge (nature), Stealth and Survival.
Brigand Kit - You add Bluff, Intimidate and Stealth to your class skills.
And so on.
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6+ skills
Combat stamina as free feat
Bravery on all emotion effects
Acrobatics as a class skill
A bonus class skill of their choice
Fighters are missing skills and seem to be considered common grunts instead of an elite and well trained weapons master.
A fighter should be able to add to any discussion (skills) and showing off (dress/behavior) and hanging out near high society (ettiquette). RP is fine but rolls will be asked for, he should know how to behave.
Honestly, 4+skills and Bravery to all Will effects is fine.
The problem is really Armor Training, since it fidgets with attribute dependencies too much.
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Here's a question for anyone who cares to answer. Never mind the mechanics, but describe in a narrative sense one or more possible things a fighter should be able to do out of combat. Not all fighters need have these same abilities, but they should be good examples. OK, not a question but I'm still curious what people think.
I struggle with this kind of fighter discussion, because in the games I play in, the people who contribute the most out of combat are the people who role-play. The character's class has little to do with it, unless the player has a specific motive in mind and the GM calls for a specific skill check (and even then it's skills, not class).
I want to be able to transverse terrain at higher levels. Exploration is difficult when you can only climb or swim. Not being able to constantly long jump even 20ft is difficult.
I don't like not having perception in pathfinder on a character that needs to see things.
Breaking down doors or walls would be nice. I'd like to be able to get anywhere.
I can already intimidate in PF, so no issue there. What I can't do is have a civil chat without most GMs calling for a diplomacy roll. Skill check to speak is annoying.
I want skill points. Casters get magic for utility, a mundane should get mundane things. A fighter does not. I had one campaign that was extra high point buy. I put the extra point to 14 int. Those two extra skill points let me grab knowledge engineering in a space themed campaign, very useful and added another dimension to my character. I wasn't just a Fighter guy.
Honestly, 4+skills and Bravery to all Will effects is fine.
The problem is really Armor Training, since it fidgets with attribute dependencies too much.
I would rather get things like DR, temp health, energy resistance, and fast healing rather than more ultimately meaningless AC.
I would rather get things like DR, temp health, energy resistance, and fast healing rather than more ultimately meaningless AC.
AC is not meaningless. It's meaningless to classes with DR, temp health, energy resistance, and fast healing, which are Barbarians.
Ideally, the Fighter would be good at avoiding hits better. It is right now, but it taxes the attributes too much to keep up with Armor Training's max dex allowance.
I would rather get things like DR, temp health, energy resistance, and fast healing rather than more ultimately meaningless AC.AC is not meaningless. It's meaningless to classes with DR, temp health, energy resistance, and fast healing, which are Barbarians.
Ideally, the Fighter would be good at avoiding hits better. It is right now, but it taxes the attributes too much to keep up with Armor Training's max dex allowance.
In my experience, AC becomes meaningless at higher levels because the monster is just going to hit you or can't hit you. Buffs eventually reduce the d20 to meaninglessness and the meager offering of Armor Training does not put your AC into the untouchable area. "Oh because of your great AC, the dragon needs a 6 to-hit instead of a 2"
AC doesn't become meaningless, but it stops being a damage-denier and becomes a damage-mitigation tool.
Sure, the 1st and 2nd hit might always hit you... But the 3rd and 4th ones won't. It's the difference between taking 1~2 or 4~5 attacks.
AC doesn't become meaningless, but it stops being a damage-denier and becomes a damage-mitigation tool.
Sure, the 1st and 2nd hit might always hit you... But the 3rd and 4th ones won't. It's the difference between taking 1~2 or 4~5 attacks.
Unless it's a natural attacker, so they only have 1st and 2nd attacks.
Unless it's a natural attacker, so they only have 1st and 2nd attacks.AC doesn't become meaningless, but it stops being a damage-denier and becomes a damage-mitigation tool.
Sure, the 1st and 2nd hit might always hit you... But the 3rd and 4th ones won't. It's the difference between taking 1~2 or 4~5 attacks.
Armor Training
You have learn to use your armor to stop the enemy's attacks. You gain a +1 dodge bonus to AC while wearing armor. If you are hit by an attack this round, this bonus increases by +1 until the beginning of your next turn. This bonus stacks with itself.At 7th level and every four levels thereafter, you gain an additional +1 dodge bonus to AC while wearing armor, and if you are hit by an attack this round, the bonus increases by a further +1 (to a maximum of +4 dodge bonus to AC while wearing armor, and increasing by a stacking +4 every time you get hit).
Armor Mastery
You cannot be critically hit and when an enemy scores a natural 20 on an attack roll against you, it is not an automatic hit.
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Unless it's a natural attacker, so they only have 1st and 2nd attacks.AC doesn't become meaningless, but it stops being a damage-denier and becomes a damage-mitigation tool.
Sure, the 1st and 2nd hit might always hit you... But the 3rd and 4th ones won't. It's the difference between taking 1~2 or 4~5 attacks.
True... Luckily, those aren't the only opponents found in the game. And secondary natural attacks still suffer a -5, and that can make a huge difference if you have good AC.
Dragons do have a terrifying full attack routine, but even if they need a 5 to hit you, that means on average they'll miss 1~2 attacks per round... That can save your life.
I agree that AC is not as useful at higher levels as it is at low levels, but it never grows useless... Specially touch AC. A good touch AC only grows more and more important as the levels go up and rays and other touch attack abilities become more and more deadly.
I'll leave this nugget here...
https://sites.google.com/site/endhavenproject/gaming/d-d-3-5-fighter-analys is
Honestly 10% of my issues with Fighters are related to skills (can be solved with Versatile Training + being Human + not being the party's skill monkey).
90% of my issues are related to Armor Training. If AMH delivers, the class will work... but it will need to two splatbooks.
I expect the same to be the case with the Kineticist.
Unless it's a natural attacker, so they only have 1st and 2nd attacks.AC doesn't become meaningless, but it stops being a damage-denier and becomes a damage-mitigation tool.
Sure, the 1st and 2nd hit might always hit you... But the 3rd and 4th ones won't. It's the difference between taking 1~2 or 4~5 attacks.
True... Luckily, those aren't the only opponents found in the game. And secondary natural attacks still suffer a -5, and that can make a huge difference if you have good AC.
Dragons do have a terrifying full attack routine, but even if they need a 5 to hit you, that means on average they'll miss 1~2 attacks per round... That can save your life.
I agree that AC is not as useful at higher levels as it is at low levels, but it never grows useless... Specially touch AC. A good touch AC only grows more and more important as the levels go up and rays and other touch attack abilities become more and more deadly.
Touch AC is just a bad mechanic. Basically an auto-hit vs anything but a monk and some monsters.
Fighters get decent AC with just heavy armor. Armor training pushes it more towards good but makes fighters more MAD.
I'd rather reduce 10 points from 5 attacks than maybe having 1-2 miss. Crit negation would be amazing, turning those x2s or x3s into x1 could really save your life. Now if I also healed 10 points every round too, that would smash anything 4 extra points of AC could offer.
I expect the same to be the case with the Kineticist.
This class is already amazing, but is a clunky mess with an alternate magic system you need to learn and exploit before you can make the class sing.
It's like interesting homebrew, but some editor forgot to tell the dev how abilities need to progress consistently and not to explain the class with endless paragraphs of text.
It could have also been 5 classes with feats that let it poach abilities from each other. Even as 5 different classes, it would have been very wordy per class.
Elemental Overflow and Internal Buffer interactions make me IRL cry. The class needs a lot more KISS.
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Huh....Not had the same issues with fighters that you've had. They are beasts, and not lacking in the slightest.
Main issue with the fighter is that they are dependent on the player to know where to find the good feats, equipment, and how to work in conjunction with party members. The fighter class is the least explained class in pathfinder, with no clear direction on how to do anything. It can be difficult to find the right way to make the class amazing for the concept you are trying to do.
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Touch AC is just a bad mechanic. Basically an auto-hit vs anything but a monk and some monsters.
Fighters get decent AC with just heavy armor. Armor training pushes it more towards good but makes fighters more MAD.
I'd rather reduce 10 points from 5 attacks than maybe having 1-2 miss. Crit negation would be amazing, turning those x2s or x3s into x1 could really save your life. Now if I also healed 10 points every round too, that would smash anything 4 extra points of AC could offer.
Tower Shield Specialist is the answer to Touch AC issues at higher levels. 9th level power allows the shield bonus to touch AC. Given that it applies to Tower Shields, and stacks with feats which increase shield bonuses to AC (Shield focus, Greater shield focus, and the shield wall teamwork feat). It combines with dex bonus and you can end up with a pretty fearsome touch AC.
It can be difficult to find the right way to make the class amazing for the concept you are trying to do.
I'll agree here. gear optimization is critical to a fighter.
My favorite archetype combo is martial master mutagen warrior eldritch guardian (mauler familiar archetype) VMC Bard Focused Study Human.
Then you optimize your gear with various splat items while rolling diplomacy checks with the GM using your snack bonus to get the items you need.
Funny thing about PF and optimization, if you just have more of it than your fellow players your Fighter can out damage ranger, barbars, and paladins while having better saves, AC, and skill checks. (I played in one group with a 27 point buy and paladin started off with 14 strength and never smited)
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Hey, I was just wondering what everyone's general thought was on the idea of giving fighters combat manoeuvre feats for free. as it is right now, the only thing a fighter is good at his smashing things and its outclassed at that by the barbarian.
my idea was to give it 'improved x' for free at certain levels ignoring the prerequisites (power attack and combat expertise.' and then at later levels giving out 'greater x'
what do you think, I think that doing this would actually improve the versatility of the fighter.
They don't need it.
Combat maneuvers can be attempted without feats. Most of the 'improved maneuver x' feats grant the ability to attempt the maneuver without provoking and give a small bonus to it.
You can perform the maneuver without the feat, and just rely on high AC to save against the provoked attack. Instead, you can use a weapon the the maneuver rule (like grab or trip) to ignore the provoking on the maneuver. Feats that add to the maneuver rule weapon's attack roll, also affect the CMB of the maneuver with that weapon (like weapon focus).
That said, if you really want a certain maneuver, there are several fighter archetypes that specialize in them.
Fighter
Hit Die: d10
Proficiencies: The Fighter is proficient with all simple, martial, non-racial exotic weapons, and all armor and shields (including tower shields).
Skills: Climb, Craft (all skills taken individually), Handle Animal, Intimidate, Knowledge (dungeoneering), Knowledge (engineering), Perception, Profession, Ride, Survival, and Swim
Skills per Level: 4 + Int. modifier
BAB Full Progression
Saves Good Fort, Good Ref, Poor Will
[u]CLASS FEATURES[/u]
Below are the descriptions of class features the Unchained Fighter receives.
Healthy: Starting at 1st level when the fighter receives any sort of healing, add the Fighter’s level to the hit points healed.
Larger Than Life (Ex): At 1st level when making Strength-based checks (not attacks), or any other roll where size matters such as when initiating a combat maneuver, you may treat the Fighter as if he were the indicated size. Medium at 1st, Large at 6th, Huge at 10th, Colossal at 14th, and Gargantuan at 18th.
Bonus Feats: Starting at 2nd level, Fighters get an assortment of bonus feats. Some of these are combat-focused. The fighter gains any Combat feat even if he does not meet the ability prerequisites of that feat. These feats may be changed with a Standard Action. As these feats can change, they do not act as prerequisites for Prestige Classes and other character feats. When the Fighter reaches 6th level, he gains Any feat. These function like Combat feat except that the fighter gains any possible feat even if he doesn’t meet the ability prerequisites of that feat. These feats may also be changed with a Standard Action.
Deflect Damage (Ex): At 2nd level, if an adjacent ally or the Fighter is injured in combat, the Fighter may make an opposed attack check (adding any shield bonus and enhancement bonus to his attack) as an Immediate Action. If successful, the opponent’s attack does minimum damage and any additional effects do not apply.
Tricky (Ex): Starting at 3rd level, when a Fighter uses a combat maneuver (such as Disarm or Trip) he may do so as a swift action that does not provoke Attacks of Opportunity. If the maneuvers fails, the Fighter receives no penalties and triggers no retaliation.
Sentinel (Ex): The Fighter gains innate enhancement bonuses to armor he wears and shield’s he wields, becoming an even more formidable warrior. Starting at 3rd level and every 3 levels after (6th, 9th, etc) they gain a cumulative +1 bonus to their armor and shield. These bonuses do not stack with existing magical item [enhancement] bonuses.
Enhanced Warfare (Ex): By tapping into his inner strength, his attacks lend more might than your average warrior. Starting at 4th level and every 3 levels after (7th, 10th, etc) they gain a cumulative +1 bonus to their weapon attack and damage rolls. These enhancement bonuses do not stack with any existing magical item [enhancement] bonuses.
Warrior’s Path: The path of the Fighter lies in specific styles and approaches to combat. Some adopt a varied path, taking feats and weapons that accommodate a multitude of situations. Some like to become more focused, putting added emphasis on a specific path. Below select a path that best describes the style you most commonly apply. You can change your style with a full day of physical training.
Dervish: Warriors choosing dual-attack style like the versatility that comes with wielding two weapons, often using a matched pair or two separate ones for utility.
• Double Slice: You gain the double slice feat as a bonus feat so long as you meet the prerequisites. If you already have double slice you may choose another combat feat you already meet the prerequisites for.
• Whirling Blades: Your ambidexterity and aptitude for the dual-style allows you unparalleled precision. From now on you may wield any combination of light or one-handed weapons in each hand and reduce the penalties for fighting with two-weapons by 1.
Great-Weapon: Warriors choosing the great, two-handed weapons emphasize power and might over defense and ranged attacks.
• Focused Frenzy: You gain the focused frenzy feat as a bonus feat so long as you meet the prerequisites. If you already possess focused frenzy you may choose another combat feat you already meet the prerequisites for.
• Reaping Strike: Whenever you miss with a melee attack while using a two-handed weapon, you still deal damage equal to your Strength modifier so long as you can reach the target. Your weapon’s enhancement bonus to damage does not apply nor to any added effects due to making a successful attack.
Shield Warden: Warrior’s choosing the shield know that the best offense is a good defense and can use their shield as both.
• Shield Bash: You gain the shield bash feat as a bonus feat. If you already possess shield bash you may choose another combat feat you already meet the prerequisites for.
• Shield Attack: You add your innate enhancement bonus from shields to attack and damage rolls when you initiate a shield bash or fight with it using Two-Weapon Fighting.
Surging Resistance: You gain an almost supernatural defense against magic, as it persists in being one of your biggest threats. At 5th level whenever you roll a saving throw you can roll two d20s and take the higher result. You must refocus your control to do this again, which takes approximately 5 min of interrupted concentration. This benefit can be used twice per encounter at 11th level, and a third time per encounter at 17th.
Wade In (Ex): Beginning at 6th level the Fighter may make a Full Attack as a Standard Action so long as he is able to make at least one attack in a round.
Hustle (Ex): At 7th level if the Fighter moves as a full round action, he ignores all movement penalties due to armor and shield.
Weapon Mastery (Ex): At 9th level any feat which applies to any single weapon now applies to all weapons.
Dominate Weapon (Ex): Starting at 11th level when picking up any magical weapon, the Fighter is considered to meet all the prerequisites for wielding that magical weapon except for any racial requirements.
Death Stroke (Ex): The Fighter has nearly reached the pinnacle of his training, giving him supreme advantages in the field of war and combat. They know just the right way to twist a sword or adjust a shot to make the very best of a critical moment. Starting at 19th level, when you succeed on a critical hit the creature must make Fort save or die (DC = 10 + damage done). The creature must be at least under half their full Hit points for this to take place. Like other death effects creatures without discernable anatomies’, most undead, and constructs are immune to this feature. Specific undead creatures, like Vampires, can be slain but the critical hit must come a source that is consistent with the manner in which these creatures can be slain.
It's mostly their combination really. Cut from the Air, Smash from the Air and Spellcut make it really hard to hit you.
You can literally SLICE down a friggin' Dominate Person.
What weapon mastery feats are actually good?
I see smash from the air as being great or something, but it only targets ray spells? ray spells suck in general
Are there any links to this material or is it only in book/pdf form. Because the latter doesn't really constitute as a fix.
wat?
Touch AC is just a bad mechanic. Basically an auto-hit vs anything but a monk and some monsters.
Fighters get decent AC with just heavy armor. Armor training pushes it more towards good but makes fighters more MAD.
I think that touch isn't bad, but there just aren't enough classes and creatures that work with it. Less big beefy thigns with natural armor, more cyborg ninjas with dodge bonuses or psychic characters with insight bonuses.
Mixed defenses are a major part of the game design. So that you should not be able to just use the same moves for ever type of enemy. Unfortunately, the bestiary doesn't quite live up to that.
And I enjoy the additional max dex. Mostly because I love reach weapons, and I have decent dex anyway to support AoOs. So still getting the most out of that and wearing full plate is nice. It isn't like you need to be particularly mad- I can do a 18/14/14 spread of physical stats, pick up a bit of dex onto the belt after taking care of str, and still find use for the max dex boost.
I think the intent of the PF Fighter is Valeros. High dex for TWF, grabs PF TWF feats, vital strike, and fighter specific weapon focus line.
Spellcut doesn't do that at all lol, it gives you a slightly higher save bonus? like maybe not even that much higher.
Your saves are still garbage
I still have no idea what you guys are talking about.
Just checked D20PFSRD, it's been uploaded.