Evil in PFS


Pathfinder Society

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Silver Crusade 5/5 5/5 **

Fromper wrote:

So a related topic that I've thought about in the past, and this seems like a good thread to ask it.

Why would neutral people worship an evil god and be a member of the Pathfinder Society?

I've long been of the opinion that, with the exception of Asmodeus, it makes essentially no in world sense that worshippers of evil gods are allowed in the Society. The downsides just outweigh any benefits.

I understand why Paizo chooses to allow them in the campaign but I think they made the wrong decision.

4/5

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Murdock Mudeater wrote:
Fromper wrote:

But I'm thinking of gods like Lamashtu and Rovagug. Why would anyone non-evil worship them? And why would those worshipers join the Pathfinder Society? And the same for many other evil deities.

Thoughts?

Religion in real life is often about your parents/family. Did being faithful to a god earn you respect from friends/family? Did you join a faith to spite your family/friends?

In another sense, people often begin to revere things that seem beyond human control. Mountains, the Sun, Death, and sometimes living things. If a person is later told that the object of their devotion is within the power of a specific deity, they may transfer their faith to the deity.

And lastly, a person's reason for faith may have nothing to do with the deity, but instead a desire to be with/like another member of the faith. Or perhaps they just enjoy the sense of community that their religion offers.

"I'm only a paladin because it pisses off my chaotic evil father!"

You know, I think that is actually Ragathiel's backstory...

Grand Lodge 4/5 5/55/5 ***

Paul Jackson wrote:
it makes essentially no in world sense that worshipers of evil gods are allowed in the Society. The downsides just outweigh any benefits.

I think you will find some who agree, some that would disagree, and some that will accuse you of "BadWrongFun"

Silver Crusade 4/5

Dorothy Lindman wrote:
Murdock Mudeater wrote:
Fromper wrote:

But I'm thinking of gods like Lamashtu and Rovagug. Why would anyone non-evil worship them? And why would those worshipers join the Pathfinder Society? And the same for many other evil deities.

Thoughts?

Religion in real life is often about your parents/family. Did being faithful to a god earn you respect from friends/family? Did you join a faith to spite your family/friends?

In another sense, people often begin to revere things that seem beyond human control. Mountains, the Sun, Death, and sometimes living things. If a person is later told that the object of their devotion is within the power of a specific deity, they may transfer their faith to the deity.

And lastly, a person's reason for faith may have nothing to do with the deity, but instead a desire to be with/like another member of the faith. Or perhaps they just enjoy the sense of community that their religion offers.

"I'm only a paladin because it pisses off my chaotic evil father!"

You know, I think that is actually Ragathiel's backstory...

My first PFS character is a barbarian who rebelled against his paladin father. In fact, he comes from a long line of paladins, going back 6 generations. His sister (another of my PCs) ended up being this generation's paladin of the family.

Scarab Sages

Dorothy Lindman wrote:
"I'm only a paladin because it pisses off my chaotic evil father!"

Yeah, though that is probably just the initial reason. You must have found something that you liked about being a paladin, or you would have ditched it for a more enjoyable means of pissing off your father.

Dark Archive 1/5

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Murdock Mudeater wrote:

One of the complaints I've heard many times about PFS is the lack of equal treatment of the alignments. Being evil will get you noticed, but being overly chaotic/good/lawful won't result in alignment changes. This seems to be especially true for the classes that are not required to be certain alignments.

I've also noticed that this seems to be suspended in "self defense" situations. So called "Good" characters seem quite fine with butchering sentient enemies if they attack first. Doesn't seem to matter if those attacking us are adequately able to defeat us, as a goblin with a watergun is regarded as just as villainous as a demon, in a "self defense" situation.

Oh no, that's not true in all lodges. When I'm playing Xao Li Quin non-lethal is my first choice unless dealing with clear monsters. Gnoll, goblin, human, it doesn't matter. I don't break out lethal force until it's clear I'm dealing with an true evil. For example i didn't start trying to kill a group of gnolls until I spotted (mid fight) that they'd been cooking and eating human children.

And I've seen a player get warned when they break out the lethal violence even when the 'big bad' is trying to calm down and/or subdue rather then kill. Such as near the end of Destiny of the Sands part 3.

Scarab Sages

Kahel Stormbender wrote:
Murdock Mudeater wrote:

One of the complaints I've heard many times about PFS is the lack of equal treatment of the alignments. Being evil will get you noticed, but being overly chaotic/good/lawful won't result in alignment changes. This seems to be especially true for the classes that are not required to be certain alignments.

I've also noticed that this seems to be suspended in "self defense" situations. So called "Good" characters seem quite fine with butchering sentient enemies if they attack first. Doesn't seem to matter if those attacking us are adequately able to defeat us, as a goblin with a watergun is regarded as just as villainous as a demon, in a "self defense" situation.

Oh no, that's not true in all lodges. When I'm playing Xao Li Quin non-lethal is my first choice unless dealing with clear monsters. Gnoll, goblin, human, it doesn't matter. I don't break out lethal force until it's clear I'm dealing with an true evil. For example i didn't start trying to kill a group of gnolls until I spotted (mid fight) that they'd been cooking and eating human children.

And I've seen a player get warned when they break out the lethal violence even when the 'big bad' is trying to calm down and/or subdue rather then kill. Such as near the end of Destiny of the Sands part 3.

Glad to hear it, I'd love to be wrong here.

Silver Crusade 4/5

Yeah, it really depends on the character for me, too.

My warpriest of Shelyn loves that her favored weapon is a polearm, because he can trip people with it, without provoking, despite not having Improved Trip yet (he's only level 2 - will get that feat next level). I also sundered an archer's bow with him once, just to take the guy out of the fight and force his surrender. That weapon will become merciful eventually.

On the other hand, I have a paladin who's more interested in dispensing justice than offering redemption. So even among my good PCs, it varies.

Dark Archive 1/5

True, Kahel rarely uses subdual tactics right now. But then again, when you're lobbing damaging bursts of wind it can be a little difficult to subdue.

Sovereign Court 4/5 5/5 ** Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden

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Some people say "it's a European thing" I kinda hope it's not but we occasionally run into the issue that a scenario basically expects you to slaughter all who resist - the scenario runs into difficulties if you approach each encounter with "take prisoners and interrogate them about the BBEG's further defences" sort of tactics. It seems some scenarios just fold if you spoil the "Lair Surprise" by interrogating minions who come there daily.

Figuring out how to get rid of prisoners so you can get on with the (timeslot-limited) scenario can be a bother. As a GM I've decided to be relatively easy when the party basically wants to get rid of a prisoner in a humane manner. Exit stage left, never to be heard from again.

This actually came up during Returned To Sky last weekend;

Spoiler:
The PCs had captured the blackscale sorceress and tied her up, then used Smelling Salts to wake her up. This NPC was described as being particularly unpleasant and prone to murder, and she still had Shout and a 10d6 breath weapon available. Had the PCs told her she was gonna be dead for sure, she would've vaporized all the civilians required for secondary success conditions right there.

As it was, one of those civilian NPCs was consulted by the players who had gotten all the info they needed. She told them to wait until the sorceress passed out again, then put her in a barrel on a cart headed out of town. Murdering her would've been easy, but might provoke further reprisals from her boss.

And she was never heard from again.

===

All that said, I'm still trying to figure out a plausible motivation for a PC who worships the Prince of the Blasted Heath. Because that's just a spiffy title and I love the Growth subdomain. I just can't fathom any halfway sane person worshiping it.

Silver Crusade 5/5 5/5 **

Bob Jonquet wrote:
Paul Jackson wrote:
it makes essentially no in world sense that worshipers of evil gods are allowed in the Society. The downsides just outweigh any benefits.
I think you will find some who agree, some that would disagree, and some that will accuse you of "BadWrongFun"

Hopefully not the latter. I have no problems at all with players playing followers of Evil Dieties as this is clearly legal.

Its no more BadWrongFun than saying that I don't think Jedi fit into Golarion, purely from a world point of view.

Scarab Sages

Ascalaphus wrote:
All that said, I'm still trying to figure out a plausible motivation for a PC who worships the Prince of the Blasted Heath. Because that's just a spiffy title and I love the Growth subdomain. I just can't fathom any halfway sane person worshiping it.

Cyth-V'sug? http://pathfinderwiki.com/wiki/Cyth-V'sug

http://archivesofnethys.com/DeityDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Cyth-V%27sug

Hmm...

We'll description says he likes the sacrifice of elves...so a PC that already doesn't like elves, maybe drawn purely to give divine purpose to his hatred.

A blight druid, would fit pretty well, given his attention to disease and fungus.

Though, does say there are cults. So your PC might just think another cultist was hot, and absorbed their faith while being dazed by his/her beauty. This is certainly a thing in real-world religions....

A potential cleric could even be drawn by the lack of divine interaction, as they'd have more freedom to shape their church however they wanted if the deity didn't really care one way or another. Sort of an proprietor cleric.

Also worshiped by black dragons, so kobolds, and other dragon worshipers, may be drawn to such a faith.

Just suggestions.

Sczarni 5/5 5/55/5 ***

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Fromper wrote:
I just think it's harder to come up with a good story reason for it, so I was wondering what stories people came up with.

Let's see... Who do I have worshiping evil deities...

-----------------------------------
My chaotic neutral Dwarf Magus worships Rovagug, but his backstory as to why was never told in-character. He actively hid the fact that he worshiped The Rough Beast. He is my darkest character, and required four atonements during his 13 levels (most of them taking place after being sent a personal guide from his god: a Quasit Familiar). He joined the Shadow Lodge (and eventually the Dark Archive) for the sole purpose of acquiring arcane power to eventually one day free his lord from containment and bring about the ultimate destruction. As an intelligent worshiper of Rovagug (which seems rare, IME), he knew that the Society only accepted non-evil members, and saw membership as a required step to attaining the strength he needed later in life.
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My neutral Undine Bolt Ace worships Kelizandri, but only because his family does. He frequently takes drugs to escape that reality, and calls her "bogus" if anyone asks. He thinks that the Society allows it because of inherent racism: "He's an Undine so of course he worships the Elemental Lord of Water! We'll let the "evil" part slide!"

He'll probably switch to Hanspur if given a good roleplaying opportunity.
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My lawful neutral Chelaxian "Hellknight" worships Asmodeus. He's a Fighter-1/Druid-X, and besides the usual contract shtick he believes only a lawful being can control the raw power of flame and rightly distribute its use as a cleansing agent (a philosophical scratch at non-lawful Sarenrae worshipers).
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My lawful neutral Ifrit Swashbuckler also worships Asmodeus. Don't all the nobles and rightful rulers of Cheliax? Her backstory includes working for the Chelish navy hunting down pirates, and she's seen the raw power that worshiping Asmodeus can bring. She's not big on being an Ifrit. She's too often mistaken for a Tiefling. One day she hopes to sign a contract with a powerful Devil (Asmodeus himself?) to transform into a Human.
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My lawful neutral Dhampir Necromancer worships Mephistopheles (the true god of contracts, in his opinion). He joined the Dark Archive because they agreed to mediate a contract between he and the Devil lord, and that contract included greater control over undead (the "Flames of Hell" trait). The Devil's terms were worship (well, and a Soul, but my PC doesn't believe he has one anyways). So he doesn't come across as overtly evil by worshiping Mephistopheles; to him it's just business.
-----------------------------------
I'm trying to put together a Warpriest of Yaezhing but that will tax my ability to roleplay a neutral murderer. So, currently, 5 of my 35 characters worship evil deities.

Sczarni 5/5 5/55/5 ***

Little anecdote: I often see people claim that Chaotic Neutral is the Society's "Evil". It's a conflation that I've been seeing since I started RPGs. IMO, anything neutral can be equally evil in different ways. In my case, of my 5 current PCs that worship evil deities, 3 are lawful, 1 is neutral, and only 1 is chaotic.

4/5 ****

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I am under the impression that the society has plenty of evil members, just none of them happen to be PCs.

Just like the neutral/good ones get sent to help the village from monsters, they evil ones get sent to ransack the irorian tomb for goodies.

5/5 5/55/55/5

Murdock Mudeater wrote:
One of the complaints I've heard many times about PFS is the lack of equal treatment of the alignments. Being evil will get you noticed, but being overly chaotic/good/lawful won't result in alignment changes. This seems to be especially true for the classes that are not required to be certain alignments.

Being good requires both good intentions and good actions. Being evil requires one or the other. If your prime motivation for rescuing the orphans is the price tag or just a chance to fight without being arrested rather than their well being you still clock in at neutral.

This gets even more of a handwave in PFS because the scenarios are a little railroadish: its not like you usually get the option to pick rescuing the orphan for the 2 clay cups his dirt farming parents put up as a reward or breaking Sir Slaughter out of paladin guarded jail while he awaits trial for genocide. The scenario is doing one or the other and you're going along for the rie.

Quote:
I've also noticed that this seems to be suspended in "self defense" situations. So called "Good" characters seem quite fine with butchering sentient enemies if they attack first. Doesn't seem to matter if those attacking us are adequately able to defeat us, as a goblin with a watergun is regarded as just as villainous as a demon, in a "self defense" situation.

That one is largely a matter of gamist vs. simulationist. A goblin with a spear CAN kill even the most seasoned warrior with a lucky shot in our world. How you react can say just as much on how you see the game as your characters point of view

Many of our groups here have a habbit of "talking the scenario to death" I have one character that considers half of the monster manual including animals, vermin, plants, and oozes social encounters, and a whole litter of kitsune saranites that whack their way through the dungeons with the flats of their blades.

The Exchange 3/5

I wonder who the Apis orphans concider evil.

Dark Archive 1/5

Nefreet wrote:
Little anecdote: I often see people claim that Chaotic Neutral is the Society's "Evil". It's a conflation that I've been seeing since I started RPGs. IMO, anything neutral can be equally evil in different ways. In my case, of my 5 current PCs that worship evil deities, 3 are lawful, 1 is neutral, and only 1 is chaotic.

My experience is that most people equate Chaotic Neutral with insanity. Which in large part I blame on an example of how alignments can affect actions from the AD&D 2nd Edition players handbook.

My take on chaotic neutral is that personal freedom and choice is the only thing that matters. Good, evil, who cares? Someone who's chaotic neutral isn't insane. They aren't doing things at random. they always have a reason for their actions. Those reasons may be hard for others to fathom. And they may be petty. But there's always a reason.

For example in a campaign I'm running someone who's chaotic neutral she decided to help the party upon meeting them. Why? Because they're after a group of murderous thieves, and murder is bad for her business. Doesn't really care beyond that. Troll shows up? She decides to fight it,but not to protect her allies. She just considers the troll too ugly to live. The ranger's animal companion gets critically injured, so she decides to heal it. Why? Because she's noticed for some reason people get really emotional when their dog dies. And fighting a troll in her opinion is a rather bad time to break down and cry. If they we weren't in combat with a troll, it's probable she'd have ignored the dying dog.

One time I was in a campaign where I was allowed to play a chaotic neutral pixie. Even more fun, the GM had approved a list of magical faerie foods (and their effects). Furthermore he was allowing my pixie (roleplayed as being from another prime material plane) teach other pixie tribes how to make said faerie foods. It was hillarious. I never did anything actually dangerous to the party (or enemies) with my pranks. But at one point someone in the party said "With allies like her, who needs enemies?"

Silver Crusade 4/5

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Nefreet wrote:
My lawful neutral Ifrit Swashbuckler also worships Asmodeus. Don't all the nobles and rightful rulers of Cheliax? Her backstory includes working for the Chelish navy hunting down pirates,

That's funny - I have a pirate character whose back story involves the Chelish navy taking down the last pirate ship he served on. That's why he decided to give up being a pirate at sea and try raiding on land as a Pathfinder for a while.

4/5

on worshipping dieties I look at it more as a range of devotion. Most character's just give "lip service" to a church. Generally it is done to avoid the so called negative effects of dying without a proclaimed deity.

It's rare to see a PFS character actually voluntarily tithing real gold to a church without benefit. Haven't seen it yet in play.

Silver Crusade 4/5

Stephen Ross wrote:

on worshipping dieties I look at it more as a range of devotion. Most character's just give "lip service" to a church. Generally it is done to avoid the so called negative effects of dying without a proclaimed deity.

It's rare to see a PFS character actually voluntarily tithing real gold to a church without benefit. Haven't seen it yet in play.

Is tithing even something that happens on Golarion? I've never heard of it. In a world where the priests can perform real magic, it seems like the churches would get most of their cash from selling spellcasting. All those adventurers paying 750 gp at a time for wands of Cure Light Wounds are probably their primary source of income. I'm sure there are occasional donations, as well, but is there really tithing on a regular basis, like in the real world?

I also haven't read up enough on how death works on Golarion to know about what happens to non-religious folks. Besides, I'd assume there are a lot of polytheists who worship more than one god. Even if they're not devoted, they would offer the occasional prayer to whichever god happens to hold sway over their current situation.

For instance, I have an archer bard whose back story involves being freed from slavery. He prays every day to thank Erastil for his archery skill, Shelyn for his performing skill, Nethys for his magical abilities, and Cayden for his freedom. And yes, my bard is the one and only alignment to be eligible to be a worshiper of all four of those deities with different alignments. And as a neutral good oratory performer, he'd routinely tell stories praising all of the good gods, and some of the neutral ones. But he gets no mechanical benefit from any of them, so he doesn't count as a "worshiper" in game terms, and the "deity" field on his character sheet is blank.

3/5 5/5

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Dorothy Lindman wrote:

"I'm only a paladin because it pisses off my chaotic evil father!"
You know, I think that is actually Ragathiel's backstory...

Ragathiel = Kylo Ren with wings? HEADCANON ACCEPTED!

Grand Lodge 4/5 ****

Fromper wrote:


I also haven't read up enough on how death works on Golarion to know about what happens to non-religious folks. Besides, I'd assume there are a lot of polytheists who worship more than one god. Even if they're not devoted, they would offer the occasional prayer to whichever god happens to hold sway over their current situation.

They get fed to Groetus, to keep him busy so he doesn't end the world.

At least not till I have done something worthy of his elevating me to divinity in the world to come.

Pretty much true, except no one knows why pharasma feeds the souls of athiest to the god of oblivion. But it seems to make him back off.

Scarab Sages

Huh. I wonder why it is somewhat common in fantasy settings to give atheists/no specific diety (in fantasy game terms) a really, really bum deal. The wall of Souls in Forgotten Realms, fed to Groetus, etc.

Grand Lodge 4/5 **** Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento

Zauron13 wrote:
Huh. I wonder why it is somewhat common in fantasy settings to give atheists/no specific diety (in fantasy game terms) a really, really bum deal. The wall of Souls in Forgotten Realms, fed to Groetus, etc.

It is not actually clear that that happens to all the atheist souls. Also, some of the Dogmas of Groetus say that when he destroys the world, a new one will be created, and a chosen few selected by Groetus will become the gods of the new world.

So it might not actually be a bad fate. Eventually.

Dark Archive 1/5

and there are some advantages to being an atheist too. For example being able to take the Godless Healing feat.

And your right Jared, it doesn't say ALL atheists get fed to Groetus. Just that Pharasma "has been known to" feed atheist souls to the Groetus.

Silver Crusade Venture-Agent, Florida–Altamonte Springs

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Zauron13 wrote:
Huh. I wonder why it is somewhat common in fantasy settings to give atheists/no specific diety (in fantasy game terms) a really, really bum deal. The wall of Souls in Forgotten Realms, fed to Groetus, etc.

Back when Pathfinder was in Beta I had one player that insisted on playing an atheist cleric because it was allowed in pathfinder. I told him "Clerics have deities" he continued to argue until I "gave in to his demands." I told him that his alignment was True Neutral and all he could do was channel negative. That was the "compromise." What he didn't know was that there was something that the "Dark Powers of Ravenloft" where what was granting him power. He never found out though because the players eventually voted to kick him from the group.

Scarab Sages

Tamec wrote:
Back when Pathfinder was in Beta I had one player that insisted on playing an atheist cleric because it was allowed in pathfinder. I told him "Clerics have deities" he continued to argue until I "gave in to his demands." I told him that his alignment was True Neutral and all he could do was channel negative. That was the "compromise." What he didn't know was that there was something that the "Dark Powers of Ravenloft" where what was granting him power. He never found out though because the players eventually voted to kick him from the group.

I have certainly encountered players that use religion to play an obnoxious character, typically while trying mimic stereotypes of real world religions they dislike.

Horizon Hunters 4/5 5/5 *** Venture-Lieutenant, Indiana—Indianapolis

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Kahel Stormbender wrote:


And I've seen a player get warned when they break out the lethal violence even when the 'big bad' is trying to calm down and/or subdue rather then kill. Such as near the end of
Spoiler:
Destiny of the Sands part 3.

You may want to spoiler such things, instead of just giving stuff away.

4/5

my point was that it's just lip service. If you say your character worships rovagug and never does anything to support the church or goals of rovagug then it's a moot point other than the declaration of faith.

You just have to declare a primary deity as per PFS guidlines if you do so. Otherwise you are free to do whatever so long as there's no mechanical benefit.

Some people use it as part of the character background or profile to justify the current personality and behaviour. It's fine so long as it doesn't get unsportsman like or people use it to justify being a jerk.

Silver Crusade 3/5 ***

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Stephen Ross wrote:

on worshipping dieties I look at it more as a range of devotion. Most character's just give "lip service" to a church. Generally it is done to avoid the so called negative effects of dying without a proclaimed deity.

It's rare to see a PFS character actually voluntarily tithing real gold to a church without benefit. Haven't seen it yet in play.

My reports, haiku,

In honor of the Songbird.
The Ten may hate me.

3/5

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Stephen Ross wrote:

on worshipping dieties I look at it more as a range of devotion. Most character's just give "lip service" to a church. Generally it is done to avoid the so called negative effects of dying without a proclaimed deity.

It's rare to see a PFS character actually voluntarily tithing real gold to a church without benefit. Haven't seen it yet in play.

My cleric of shax focuses on the envy side of the religion. I spread his religion by channeling negative energy into people so they steal.

My tithe is getting to perform actions suiting the side of the god I revere.

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