Not to mention that with all the archetypes, Variant Multi-Class, and other ways to mix-and-match class features I'd be hard-pressed to say that there are any Paladin class features that couldn't be at least somewhat copied by another class.
RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Even if it is common knowledge that those who call themselves paladins have certain abilities - and I could argue that the game world runs better if class abilities are not common knowledge - nothing at all prevents a character from claiming to be a paladin and choosing to live by that code on their own.
To me "paladin" is as much an in-game term as "wizard" or "bard." Generally people in world will know the basic idea behind someone who claims that title, but like any label others can claim them with varying degrees of plausibility.
So, I wrote a post a few weeks back titled The Paladin in Name Only. The idea wasn't new; a character who looks, acts, and sounds like a paladin, but who has no paladin levels. Maybe it's a dedicated fighter, a righteous cavalier, or even a born-again ranger, but the point is you don't HAVE to take paladin levels to play a knight in shining armor who follows a code and always tries to do the right thing.
The peasant-pretending-to-be-a-samurai is a standard trope in Japanese fiction (see The Seven Samurai for an iconic example); the warrior trying to be a paladin should have no such problem -- except for the minor little "how do you respond when someone asks if you're a paladin?" problem, since you're not allowed to lie under the code you're trying to follow.
I agree, nothing in the text makes knightly orders paladin-only, and one of the most famous/iconic paladins (Sir Galahad) was part of a order that most definitely did not restrict itself to paladins (Sir Mordred, please pick up the black discourtesy phone...)
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Seems to me that some classes really lead to having their name be irrelevant.
For example, "cleric" is just a general term that means "a guy who works for the church and is ordained". By that definition, every cleric, oracle, paladin, warpriest, and all their archetypes, as well as anyone else who works for the church (such as a fighter who happens to be devout and church-employed in an ordained capacity) might qualify to call himself a "cleric".
Any arcane caster might call himself a "wizard" or a "sorcerer" if he wants to. Those are just terms for "a guy who uses arcane magic". They also happen to be classes, but the class names are very generic. That's like calling a Navy Seal a "sailor" because he often works on board a ship - technically it might be true, but the more specific name is a better description of what he does.
All that being said, "Paladin" is not just a class, it's (often) a profession. While he's a cleric, a clergyman, a holy warrior, etc. - those are all generic terms. The term "Paladin" is much more specific (like Navy Seal is) and pretty much refers to just one thing.
Having a fighter or a dual-class fighter/cleric claim to be a "Paladin" is like having any ordinary sailor claim to be a Navy Seal. It's just not accurate.
All of which is pure opinion, but I don't think there is a RAW answer for this.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
All that being said, "Paladin" is not just a class, it's (often) a profession. While he's a cleric, a clergyman, a holy warrior, etc. - those are all generic terms. The term "Paladin" is much more specific (like Navy Seal is) and pretty much refers to just one thing.
I dunno, I don't see any evidence that "paladin" is more specific than "sorcerer." If we're applying real-world definitions here, then "paladin" is indeed specific -- it refers to one of the companions of Roland and no one in Golarion qualifies. (OED: "In modern forms of the Charlemagne romances: any of the twelve peers or most famed warriors of Charlemagne's court.") If we're applying a Pathfinder-based definition here, there's nothing in the ruleset that suggests that paladin is any more specific than any other class name.
|
|
All that being said, "Paladin" is not just a class, it's (often) a profession. While he's a cleric, a clergyman, a holy warrior, etc. - those are all generic terms. The term "Paladin" is much more specific (like Navy Seal is) and pretty much refers to just one thing.
While I don't think there is any RAW for it - I lean that way myself. The reason is the paladin's code.
The main purpose of having a code is so that everyone will know where paladins stand. Nobles know that the powerful adventurer traveling through his land won't try to overthrow him. (Might try to take him down if he's bad - but not overthrow.) Everyone knows they tell the truth. etc.
If 'paladin' isn't a profession that people know of, the code loses its beneficial aspects. (People talk as if the code is only a negative. If the world DOES have paladins as a known quantity, it is also a benefit.)
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
All that being said, "Paladin" is not just a class, it's (often) a profession. While he's a cleric, a clergyman, a holy warrior, etc. - those are all generic terms. The term "Paladin" is much more specific (like Navy Seal is) and pretty much refers to just one thing.While I don't think there is any RAW for it - I lean that way myself. The reason is the paladin's code.
The main purpose of having a code is so that everyone will know where paladins stand. Nobles know that the powerful adventurer traveling through his land won't try to overthrow him. (Might try to take him down if he's bad - but not overthrow.) Everyone knows they tell the truth. etc.
If 'paladin' isn't a profession that people know of, the code loses its beneficial aspects. (People talk as if the code is only a negative. If the world DOES have paladins as a known quantity, it is also a benefit.)
I tend to look at it the same, although I tend towards treating it like a prestige group. There are paladins that might be any class but follow the code and otherwise spread the faith and there are Paladins, ordained by the Power behind the group, usually a god.
Mechanically there is a distinction between specific class names on rare occasions, most often found in magic items. Classic example, is that a Holy Avenger is different in the hands of a Paladin than it is if a war preist or lawful good fighter is weilding it. So the specific classes (and their names) do have a real measurable effect on the universe. It doesn't show up all that often in just the rules though. Magic Mouth, for example, can't tell the difference between a fighter and a paladin (or a wizard for that matter).
Beyond that, you have setting specific questions. There certainly can be settings where no one is called a Paladin, even though some exist, equally you could have settings where all Paladins are part of the official Paladin club and have a special Paladin decoder ring. Golarion is somewhere in the middle. Paladin is clearly a defined and known concept (even has its own Harrow Deck Card) many Paladin are part of official groups and many identify themselves as Paladins. However, it certainly leaves the possibility for other options, names etc. I personally can imagine a modest Paladin never saying he was a Paladin, just a guy who did what he could to help out. Other people might realize and call him a Paladin though, as in general I think the default assumption is that the various 'classes' are more or less known.
From the original OPs point though, there is absolutely nothing wrong with a devout LG Fighter that wears holy symbols and follows the same code that a Paladin would. Indeed I find that character far more inspiring, because they are not 'getting something' for their adherence to a code, they are just doing it because it is what they believe to be right.
The only problem would be if they were to claim they where a Paladin when they knew they were not. This would be entirely setting dependent, but in Golarion 'Paladin' does have a specific meaning and it would be unlikely for a person to not be a Paladin but genuinely believe that they were, so saying you were a Paladin would be a purposeful lie.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
"Paladin" is specific, but not specific enough, just like "Cleric." The real question is Cleric/Paladin of what faith? A person would react very differently to a Paladin of Shelyn and a Paladin of Abadar. Even a Paladin of Torag and a Paladin of Ragathiel ought to evoke different reactions. Just as in our world, a Catholic priest and a Buddhist monk evoke different images and thoughts.
In that way, perhaps "Paladin" is less like "Navy Seal" and more like "Special Forces" or "Commando." It matters which Special Forces you're talking about, though they all are highly skilled and deadly.
I'm a fan of each faith developing names of their Paladin or Inquisitor orders. Torag might call his, "Hammers." Shelyn calls her group, "Artists." Ragathiel has "Avengers," and Erastil has "Hunters."
So to me, it would be very different to say you're a heavily armored fighter devoted to Erastil. That's awesome and should be encouraged. But it's another thing to say you're a Hunter of Erastil.
A paladin in name only probably isn't calling themselves a paladin. They'll follow the code sure, but if they aren't an actual paladin (or aren't going to become one in the next level) they're not going to call themselves a paladin.
Why would following the code and thus being unable to lie prevent a "paladin" lacking Paladin class levels from referring to himself as a Paladin? There is a Spellcraft skill, but AFAIK there are no Featcraft or Classcraft skills (and even Spellcraft is limited in that, while it can allow a character to in-universe identify a spell, it can't really identify what class's spell lists said spell exists on). How does anyone in that world, including non-Paladin observers, "Paladins" without Paladin class levels, and Paladins with Paladin class levels, have any clue that the guy following the Paladin code and calling himself a Paladin isn't a Paladin? Except for not having levels in the class, something arguably outside the knowledge of anyone in the entire setting short of Deadpool, how is he not telling God's honest truth when he says he is?
how is he not telling God's honest truth when he says he is?
He would have to believe he was a Paladin. Without some special reason to think he was a Paladin he wouldn't think that he was, particularly since he lacks the abilities that lore says a Paladin has. He doesn't have the ability to sense evil or smite the wicked as an example.
About the only way I can see it someone thinking they were a Paladin when they weren't was if someone deceived them or they were insane.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
It depends on how you're defining it.
Is paladin in game the class features? in which case you can't say yes and be honest.
Or is paladin in game a way of life? in which case anyone could be one.
Like the Brawler and a Martial Master Monk.
In our world the Monk could call himself a brawler and we'd all agree that he was a brawler. The Brawler would also be a brawler. But the Monk isn't a Brawler. So in the game world does brawler mean our brawler, or does it mean Brawler, and thus only applies to Brawlers?
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Ok, some differences of concept here. If you think of a Paladin as someone who is spontaneously called to service perhaps through a vision or voices (Joan of Arc) and granted powers to be on a mission from god, then perhaps there's not any reason to doubt the devout character. If, however, you think Paladins form a religious order, get specialized training, and are acknowledged as brothers by other members of the faith, then it's going to be hard (though maybe not impossible) to claim Paladinhood.
I'm all for a character being perceived as a "paladin" by others. It's a different story if he's claiming to be of a specific religious order that he's never been initiated into. And the big question is why would you? Why claim to be a Mason, Special Forces, or an NFL player if you're not?
I think an individual could call themselves or think themselves a paladin.
But a lack of abilities usually attributed to a paladin would probably make people suspicious.
One particular things is that all paladins have an aura of good, if you're not of good alignment and at least level 5 (or a cleric or paladin) you wouldn't have an aura. That would be one problem.
You could probably pull it off to an extent, but I think eventually people would catch on. You might continue to think of yourself as a paladin, but others might not.
If a Paladin is simply a warrior that serves a faith, then even a fighter can be a Paladin. Paladin would most likely be the term bestowed upon those warriors who pledge themselves in service to upholding the tenants of their deity. That some are gifted with special abilities would be a mark of favour upon those gifted, not a mark of failure upon those not. Faith and service are what matters.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
In a different campaign, and a different setting entirely I have a character that is *consistently* confused for being the 'in-campaign/setting' equivalent of 'paladin'.
When time permits, he very politely and exhaustively informs those who have such errant views why he is *not* such a person (his code of conduct is FAR more restrictive than the 'paladin-equivalent') and why he views their organization as somewhat 'flawed', because they rely on mystical powers and other crutches rather than exemplify all that a living being can be on their own strengths and merits.
It really becomes amusing when opponents see the principled behaviour and assume that he's part of that particular order, and make a lot of false assumptions that ultimately lead to their defeat.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
except for the minor little "how do you respond when someone asks if you're a paladin?" problem, since you're not allowed to lie under the code you're trying to follow.
I'm not sure if that's even a problem either. The guy considers himself a paladin and acts like a paladin so why not call himself a paladin? Class levels are a mechanical construct after all.
Worst case scenario someone points out you aren't part of insert-paladin-order-here and the character in question argues that they don't need to have a membership card to be a paladin.
|
|
I always assumed a paladin's code was a matter between him or herself and the god in question. A mercenary company with a reputation for gallantry might have a code that everyone knows, and that garners the members respect of the people. A paladin sharing his code (since it's so generic in the book, I always make sure to sit down with the DM to make certain that what I think is lawful good and what the DM thinks is lawful good are the same thing) has never come up in a game I've seen.All that being said, "Paladin" is not just a class, it's (often) a profession. While he's a cleric, a clergyman, a holy warrior, etc. - those are all generic terms. The term "Paladin" is much more specific (like Navy Seal is) and pretty much refers to just one thing.While I don't think there is any RAW for it - I lean that way myself. The reason is the paladin's code.
The main purpose of having a code is so that everyone will know where paladins stand. Nobles know that the powerful adventurer traveling through his land won't try to overthrow him. (Might try to take him down if he's bad - but not overthrow.) Everyone knows they tell the truth. etc.
If 'paladin' isn't a profession that people know of, the code loses its beneficial aspects. (People talk as if the code is only a negative. If the world DOES have paladins as a known quantity, it is also a benefit.)
While a bit generic - there are some things that all paladin codes share.
1. No lying.2. No poison.
3. No cheating
4. Help those in need
5. Punish the those who harm or threaten innocents (I think of this one as 'punish the guilty' - but I think that they didn't want it tied to specific set of laws or legal system)
The first 3 keep people from thinking that the paladin might be tricking them. (#3 keeping them from treating #1 like Aes Sedai do in Wheel of Time) The last two tell people that their objectives are pure. Sounds pretty trustworthy to me, and the kind of thing that paladin orders should share so that they're more likely to get people to work with them.
There's never been a mechanic for your code earning you respect or favor among people. It seems more like the price of entry for the powers you're allowed to wield.
Hence my above "While I don't think there is any RAW for it..."
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I think this is largely a personal preference / setting issue.
As far as I'm concerned, while in-world there's no precise way to pin down character class, certain sets of abilities can be associated with particular roles, backgrounds, or professions. So a "wizard" may be anyone who graduated from a Wizard's College - mostly members of the wizard class, but occasionally arcanists, magi, alchemists, or others. But a member of the wizard class who was taught by a family member might not get the title.
Similarly, in my current setting, "Paladin" is a title associated specifically with the holy knights of the LG deity of warfare. This involves very specific training, oaths, and symbols of membership making them easily identifiable, and anyone falsely claiming to be a member of this organization would be guilty of a crime similar to impersonating a police officer. The organization is made up essentially entirely of members of the paladin class, though some may multiclass or even variant multiclass.
Members of the paladin class associated with other deities may have other titles or no title, and may have very different codes of conduct reflecting more accurately that deity's specific concerns. Deities may or may not draw a distinction between members of the paladin class and other holy warriors in their service. Members of the paladin class who are not "Paladins" in-game are often referred to as "Champions," though because these characters may have varied abilities the title is not precise.
The aim here was to preserve the traditional flavour and role associated with the "Paladin" while allowing the class to serve a broader range of concepts.
He would have to believe he was a Paladin. Without some special reason to think he was a Paladin he wouldn't think that he was, particularly since he lacks the abilities that lore says a Paladin has. He doesn't have the ability to sense evil or smite the wicked as an example.
An inquisitor can do both those things, while a Paladin of Irori with the appropriate archetype can do neither.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
As stated many times, the main thing is how your game world defines the word 'paladin'. It's possible for a cleric of some deities to pass as one, I think, and if the word means 'LG warrior with a higher code' rather than 'person with class levels', then it's not a lie to claim to be one to begin with despite not having the levels.
The same with other classes. The names of them do evoke certain images, true, but some of them can be just used as they are in English. I recall a bard of Shelyn, a cleric of Irori, an artsy sorcerer, and a rogue being lambasted by an NPC and called a group of barbarians in my group. (And for more fun, this was while my character--with Barbarian levels--was 'busy' elsewhere.)
There's even in-game a bit of a confusion -- there's the Brawler, and then there's the Brawler Fighter. As well as just characters that get hammered in the tavern and start swinging fists around. (And now I'm trying to remember if the drunken archetype for monks is actually called a Drunken Brawler or not ... )
Ultimately: first, decide how the words are used in the game world. Remember, 'warrior' and 'aristocrat' and 'commoner' and 'expert' ARE class names, so don't get too attached to the idea of class names forcing one to identify with the actual class they're named after.
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
I once asked a DM if I could play a Paladin of Freedom in 3.5 (UA) that was about chaos and freedom and he said no. So, I built a Fighter/Cleric and in-character called myself a Paladin. I even followed the Paladin of Freedom Code.
Seems to me that some classes really lead to having their name be irrelevant.
For example, "cleric" is just a general term that means "a guy who works for the church and is ordained". By that definition, every cleric, oracle, paladin, warpriest, and all their archetypes, as well as anyone else who works for the church (such as a fighter who happens to be devout and church-employed in an ordained capacity) might qualify to call himself a "cleric".
{. . .}
Not sure if this is official, but Pathfinder seems to use "Priest" as the generic term for the servants of a church/temple/religion more generally.
* * * * * * * *
And on the more sordid end, you might be amused by this thread.
|
RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32
|
Just to stir the pot a little, so what if a non-paladin lies about being a paladin? It's not like there are innate consequences for breaking the code. A character could follow the code except for this one little lie, which he rationalizes to himself as necessary. That actually sounds like a cool character concept to me - you could almost say if he didn't lie about it he would no longer have to...
Just be honest about being a Paladin, is that too much to ask!
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
The collective of the internet's intelligence collapses and we revert to the pseudo segregationist naivete that came before Stormwind whenever anyone posts about paladins.
Either that or there is a large collective of "yes, the rules are stupid, role play however you like."
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I personally can imagine a modest Paladin never saying he was a Paladin, just a guy who did what he could to help out. Other people might realize and call him a Paladin though, as in general I think the default assumption is that the various 'classes' are more or less known.
I have a Pathfinder Society character who is a paladin with the Chosen One archetype. Her song thrush familiar flew up to her when she was a homeless teen on the streets and led her to a rusty katana sitting around in the woods, which she magically knew how to use the first time she picked it up. He explained (thrush familiars can talk from level 1) that Shizuru sent him and gave her special powers.
Being PFS, I play her with different groups every time, and she introduces herself uncertainly as "I'm a warrior these days, I guess". Common isn't her native language, because she's Japanese an anime girl Minkaian, along with being young and naive (dumped wisdom), so she really doesn't know that there's a better word to describe her role.
I really wish I could persuade more gamers to try a game where they don't use their class name to describe themselves in-character. A game where your cleric is a priest, or uses a title like Father or Mother can do a lot to change perspective. Or where the bard never once refers to himself as a bard. A teller of tales, and singer of songs, perhaps. Or, if you're a half-orc with a specialty in intimidation and boosting, a more descriptive title like Taskmaster might be more helpful.
Again, I play PFS, where I play a variety of PCs, with different groups every time, though there are certain people I play with the most. But I try to do this - introduce my characters based on what they do and how they see themselves, rather than by character class. I introduce some in straightforward ways, but not all.
Heh. Just for fun, see if you can guess the character classes based on how I introduce these characters. Some are easy, others not so much.
1. "My name is Misaki. I'm a warrior these days, I guess." (Duh)
2. "I'm Sister Isabella, priestess of Sarenrae."
3. "My name is Celia, priestess of Gozreh."
4. "I am Qassir, dervish swordsman from Qadira." (said in a vaguely faux-Arabian accent)
5. "My... name... is... Varg. ... Please... ac-cept... this... rose... from... the... church... of... She-lyn." *hands out small, hand crafted wood carvings of roses*
6. "My name is Boon Sai Hong, and I am the greatest quarterstaff master in all of Golarion!" A monkey jumps on to Boon's shoulder and hits him on the back of the head. "Hey! Stop that! ... And this furball is Po Po. He helps... supposedly."
7. "I'm Green Beard the Pirate, because what else would you call a half-orc pirate?"
8. "My name is Erevel Heldanlissil, archer extraordinaire. We elves know how to shoot bows properly, unlike you... lower races, so pay attention, and you might learn something."
Hint: That last one is for the Core campaign, so he was created using only the Core Rulebook, Pathfinder Society Guide to Organized Play, and online traits document.
Way back in first edition I played a dual classed cleric/thief, wore full plate, fought in melee, laid on hands (well, cast Cure X Wounds spells and touched people), and called myself a paladin. The other PCs believed me and so did the players, I think (mostly new players so easy to fool).
I stole from the group and when they discovered the theft, they never suspected me. In fact, they asked me to help them find the thief. We never did. I got away with a lot. Using the "paladin" label was the best cover ever.
|
|
See, that's the type of character that might expect an eventual comeuppance if he did run into an actual paladin.
The alternative question might be, if you have paladin levels, but you're a member of an in-game organization, wouldn't it make more sense to use your standing there? As a Pathfinder, Eagle Knight Captain, Hellknight Lictor, etc.
Depends.
Do you identify strongly with the in-game organization, or is it a means to support your primary calling?
Are you acting officially on behalf of your organization, or conversely would it be inappropriate to imply that you are doing so?
Do the people you are interacting with have any particular associations with your organization that might affect their reaction?
While we often think of characters as introducing themselves in one way, as Fromper illustrates, actual people tend to be very flexible in how they introduce themselves, depending on the social context.
How would anyone tell the difference between a Paladin and a Warpriest with the Champion of the Faith archetype? Both can smite, both heal with a touch and can channel without casting, and both detect as Good if they're the same alignment. There are mechanical differences but there isn't really any way to test them with certainty. A LG Champion of the Faith Warpriest could call themselves a Paladin and nobody would know.
Also I'd like to point out that there are archetypes that trade out certain class features, so not every paladin would have the same abilities. That makes it impossible to distinguish someone who's faking it from the real deal.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
How would anyone tell the difference between a Paladin and a Warpriest with the Champion of the Faith archetype? Both can smite, both heal with a touch and can channel without casting, and both detect as Good if they're the same alignment. There are mechanical differences but there isn't really any way to test them with certainty. A LG Champion of the Faith Warpriest could call themselves a Paladin and nobody would know.
Also I'd like to point out that there are archetypes that trade out certain class features, so not every paladin would have the same abilities. That makes it impossible to distinguish someone who's faking it from the real deal.
Precisely. A holy gun can't detect good, but they're still a paladin archetype.
Of course, the real question, is how many people are confident enough to nay say you while staring down the business end of a musket?
About as many people that can cast dampen powder.
Heh. Just for fun, see if you can guess the character classes based on how I introduce these characters. Some are easy, others not so much.1. "My name is Misaki. I'm a warrior these days, I guess." (Duh)
2. "I'm Sister Isabella, priestess of Sarenrae."
3. "My name is Celia, priestess of Gozreh."
4. "I am Qassir, dervish swordsman from Qadira." (said in a vaguely faux-Arabian accent)
5. "My... name... is... Varg. ... Please... ac-cept... this... rose... from... the... church... of... She-lyn." *hands out small, hand crafted wood carvings of roses*
6. "My name is Boon Sai Hong, and I am the greatest quarterstaff master in all of Golarion!" A monkey jumps on to Boon's shoulder and hits him on the back of the head. "Hey! Stop that! ... And this furball is Po Po. He helps... supposedly."
7. "I'm Green Beard the Pirate, because what else would you call a half-orc pirate?"
8. "My name is Erevel Heldanlissil, archer extraordinaire. We elves know how to shoot bows properly, unlike you... lower races, so pay attention, and you might learn something."Hint: That last one is for the Core campaign, so he was created using only the Core Rulebook, Pathfinder Society Guide to Organized Play, and online traits document.
..they're monks. They're ALL monks. Even Misaki because you can't fool me she's a monk you're just lying to us. (And now I ponder MAKING all of these people as a monk!) And I like the point made here -- assuming all of these people are honest (#7 has a reason to not be, of course), just about anything's possible.
(And now I want to build all of them as barbarians too.)
Class levels are abstractions that give us mechanical handle on roleplaying aspects.
Who you are as a character is defined more by deeds, status, and association, then by class mechanics.
A horde of Paladins may be as feared as a horde of Barbarians as they equally implacable when bent on a goal.
You may cast spells prepared from a spellbook, but only one being is the King's Wizard.... and so on.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Paladins aren't just a class though.
Lore-wise they are special individuals who were called to do it. A person who calls themselves a Paladin when they aren't is doing a disservice.
My Paladin would not like it at all.
A lie is a lie.
Being a Paladin isn't something you do, its something you are.
Whereas many of my Paladins might feel like yours is a little too hung up on feeling unique and special, caring more about titles and appearances than just Doing The Right Thing.