Because all familiars get Weapon Finesse, can I swap out the Weapon Finesse feat that the standard animal has, put Cosmopolitan in its place, and then pick two languages that the familiar will be able to speak?
I assume that the two skills I pick will also get the familiar a +3 bonus if I have ranks in them as the master.
Is this correct?
Because all familiars get Weapon Finesse, can I swap out the Weapon Finesse feat that the standard animal has, put Cosmopolitan in its place, and then pick two languages that the familiar will be able to speak?
I assume that the two skills I pick will also get the familiar a +3 bonus if I have ranks in them as the master.
Is this correct?
I must have missed something... "all familiars get Weapon Finesse"? I don't think I've ever seen this particular rule.
Munchkinism at its finest.
Basically having an ability that functions like a feat is not the same thing a having the feat.
That said, all animals have at least one feat since they all have at least one hd but you have to talk to the dm about retaining your familiar's feat.
Munchkinism at its finest.
Basically having an ability that functions like a feat is not the same thing a having the feat.
That said, all animals have at least one feat since they all have at least one hd but you have to talk to the dm about retaining your familiar's feat.
The only thing it doesn't count for is prerequisites as it have the same effect. I don't see any "Munchkinism" wanting to replace an ability that duplicates another ability you already have. They made the downtime retraining for a reason and this sounds like a perfect use of it.
As for the question, the best thing to do is ask you DM. He should be able to let you know what feats he's comfortable you swapping out. If it's for PFS don't bother; you'll run into way too much table variance to make it worthwhile.
That said, all animals have at least one feat since they all have at least one hd but you have to talk to the dm about retaining your familiar's feat.Except for king crabs and leopard slugs, which don't normally have any feats (being mindless vermin).
Jack Mann: LOL that isn't my quote.
I could have sworn I hit reply on Marshmallow's post. Oh, how embarrassing.
I could have sworn I hit reply on Marshmallow's post. Oh, how embarrassing.
It happens, no worries. ;)
Before making any homebrew decisions, why don't you check
You might find something that works for what you need in the rules
Munchkinism at its finest.
Basically having an ability that functions like a feat is not the same thing a having the feat.
That said, all animals have at least one feat since they all have at least one hd but you have to talk to the dm about retaining your familiar's feat.
The only thing it doesn't count for is prerequisites as it have the same effect. I don't see any "Munchkinism" wanting to replace an ability that duplicates another ability you already have. They made the downtime retraining for a reason and this sounds like a perfect use of it.
As for the question, the best thing to do is ask you DM. He should be able to let you know what feats he's comfortable you swapping out. If it's for PFS don't bother; you'll run into way too much table variance to make it worthwhile.
Munchkinism was in that he were not only assuming that he had the weapon finesse feat, but that he could retrain a feat he didn't have.
I don't think it matters for familiars, but you also have to make sure that the animal has at least a 3 INT. I believe familiars start out much higher, but for animal companions it's very important.
EDIT: You also have to make sure that the animal is one that could speak at all, many animals cannot despite having high enough INT scores and languages known, because their anatomy does not allow it.
Munchkinism was in that he were not only assuming that he had the weapon finesse feat, but that he could retrain a feat he didn't have.
I don't get your point. The familiar LITERALLY has the weapon finesse feat and he wants to retrain it as the familiar has an ability that gives the same benefits as the feat. So I'm unsure how you came to the conclusion that he was trying to "retrain a feat he didn't have". Look at the 'Familiar, Arctic Tern or Bat' that gets the "Feats Weapon Finesse". Those animals get 0 benefit from the feat as they don't get more feats for prerequisites to matter and the familiar feature already cover dex to hit.
Now if I'm misreading him and he wants to retrain the feature and not an actual feat then of course that's a no go. The feature is clearly not a feat. His saying "swap out the Weapon Finesse feat that the standard animal has" to me sounds like the actual animal feat and not the familiar feature.
On languages: Even if the animal can't speak normally, the extra languages would be there for it to understand and they could always translate to the owner once speak to master comes on line.
I'm not playing PFS.
I always thought this was something implied in the standard rules. I remember JJ verifying back in 2009? that yes, the Weapon Finesse feat on some animal familiars is redundant and you can swap it out for something else. This is something that, to the best of my knowledge, predates the Animal Archive.
Munchkinism was in that he were not only assuming that he had the weapon finesse feat, but that he could retrain a feat he didn't have.I don't get your point. The familiar LITERALLY has the weapon finesse feat and he wants to retrain it as the familiar has an ability that gives the same benefits as the feat. So I'm unsure how you came to the conclusion that he was trying to "retrain a feat he didn't have". Look at the 'Familiar, Arctic Tern or Bat' that gets the "Feats Weapon Finesse". Those animals get 0 benefit from the feat as they don't get more feats for prerequisites to matter and the familiar feature already cover dex to hit.
Now if I'm misreading him and he wants to retrain the feature and not an actual feat then of course that's a no go. The feature is clearly not a feat. His saying "swap out the Weapon Finesse feat that the standard animal has" to me sounds like the actual animal feat and not the familiar feature.
On languages: Even if the animal can't speak normally, the extra languages would be there for it to understand and they could always translate to the owner once speak to master comes on line.
We are saying the same thing, but probably just failing to communicate it properly.
You are correct, it would not only be legal, but optimal if the animal already has the Weapon Finesse feat to retrain it to something more useful because the rules for familiars make the Weapon Finesse feat redundant.
He can't however, retrain the game mechanics which function like Weapon Finesse into a feat because it's not a feat. Trying to do that seems really munchkinny to me.
I'm not playing PFS.
I always thought this was something implied in the standard rules. I remember JJ verifying back in 2009? that yes, the Weapon Finesse feat on some animal familiars is redundant and you can swap it out for something else. This is something that, to the best of my knowledge, predates the Animal Archive.
There was a post like that about animal companions and people wanting Combat Trained mounts. It was said that you could buy/find a mount that had armor proficiency instead of it's normal feat.
The FAQ for the Core Rulebook addresses Combat Trained:
Quote:
Does training an animal using Handle Animal to be Combat Trained (pg 98 in the Core Rulebook) grant it Light Armor Proficiency?
No, using Handle Animal to train an animal, or mount, in this way does not grant it a free bonus feat. It is not unreasonable, however to assume that an animal specifically designed to be ridden (such as a horse or dog) could be purchased with Light Armor Proficiency as one of its feats (swapping out Endurance or Skill Focus respectively) for the same cost. (JMB, 10/21/10)
–Jason Bulmahn (10/21/10)
Note that the built-in weapon finesse is with natural attacks only.
I'm not playing PFS.
I always thought this was something implied in the standard rules. I remember JJ verifying back in 2009? that yes, the Weapon Finesse feat on some animal familiars is redundant and you can swap it out for something else. This is something that, to the best of my knowledge, predates the Animal Archive.
There was a post like that about animal companions and people wanting Combat Trained mounts. It was said that you could buy/find a mount that had armor proficiency instead of it's normal feat.
The FAQ for the Core Rulebook addresses Combat Trained:
Quote:
Does training an animal using Handle Animal to be Combat Trained (pg 98 in the Core Rulebook) grant it Light Armor Proficiency?
No, using Handle Animal to train an animal, or mount, in this way does not grant it a free bonus feat. It is not unreasonable, however to assume that an animal specifically designed to be ridden (such as a horse or dog) could be purchased with Light Armor Proficiency as one of its feats (swapping out Endurance or Skill Focus respectively) for the same cost. (JMB, 10/21/10)
–Jason Bulmahn (10/21/10)
Thank you, it was JB not JJ. I think that's the one that I took to mean that you can always swap out the default feats on companion creatures.
Note that the built-in weapon finesse is with natural attacks only.
It's just an owl. He's not going to be swinging a broadsword.
Double bladed katana in the his talons, diving by people slashing them.
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If your GM approves the rule in the Animal Archive that lets you replace a familiar's starting feats, you may do so only with a 'familiar only' feat as per that rule.
""Feats that are meant for familiars can be
switched out for a familiar’s default feats (as listed in the familiar’s statistics) if the familiar meets the prerequisites."
You can not trade out the natural ability to attack with finesse, only the Weapon Finesse feat if the familiar has it.
For PFS, Mike Brock said that if you trade out the Weapon Finesse feat you lose access to the weapon finesse ability of familiars.
Link
You will have to ask your GM about this. They could likely go either way.
Your GM, though, could allow anything above that as well.
But nothing currently in Pathfinder would allow your familiar to gain the cosmopolitan feat, even in a trade.
But nothing currently in Pathfinder would allow your familiar to gain the cosmopolitan feat, even in a trade.
Jason Bulmahn's FAQ says it's "not unreasonable" to have animals trained with different feats. As such, I see no reason you can't have your familiar retrain a feat for cosmopolitan with the retraining rules.
So if we assume you can retrain to Cosmopolitan, that brings us to the next part: can it now speak?
I'd say it can't, even the Raven, Thrush or Parrot. They are simply physically incapable of speech. It's like how you can get them the feat to wield a Greatsword but almost all of them still couldn't.
The speech on those 3 birds is supernatural and part of their nature as a familiar.
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But nothing currently in Pathfinder would allow your familiar to gain the cosmopolitan feat, even in a trade.Jason Bulmahn's FAQ says it's "not unreasonable" to have animals trained with different feats. As such, I see no reason you can't have your familiar retrain a feat for cosmopolitan with the retraining rules.
Yes, and that is not a rule in Pathfinder only a guideline for a GM to follow or not follow at their will. Which was in regards to purchasing animals at the market and shopping for alternate starting feats.
"Gm, can I find a horse with endurance or power attack at the market?"
Cosmopolitan is not a feat a non-sentient, INT 2 or less, animal would have typically... unless a GM allowed it.
And, yes, it is not unreasonable to allow retraining rules to do it as well. Even though familiars are not covered in retraining rules(Except in PFS).
But, as I said, there is no current rule that you can point to to do this. At least, not without a GMs modification to allow it to function in that way.
In other words, no, you can't do this by the rules as they are. It is 'possible', even 'reasonable' under retraining rules, but it is not actually currently in the rules.
And, a bird can not speak without vocal cords capable of it, same as any animal. A couple do gain it as a supernatural ability though. They can understand the language on the other hand. But, for a familiar, you are better off putting a point in Linguistics as they get that skill point too.
But, there is a ring that gives speech to creatures that otherwise can not speak.
Attacks: Use the master's base attack bonus, as calculated from all his classes. Use the familiar's Dexterity or Strength modifier, whichever is greater, to calculate the familiar's melee attack bonus with natural weapons. Damage equals that of a normal creature of the familiar's kind.
The bold text is not a feat. It is similar to weapon finesse. It is part of being a familiar.
At the top of the page it states:
A familiar is an animal chosen by a spellcaster to aid him in his study of magic. It retains the appearance, Hit Dice, base attack bonus, base save bonuses, skills, and feats of the normal animal it once was, but is now a magical beast for the purpose of effects that depend on its type.
The feats of the normal animal can be swapped per the rules.
/cevah