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Ok, so we know from a few sources (but especially Reign of Winter), that Earth and Golarion exist in the same.....something. And that's the problem. We know that Pathfinder-Earth is supposed to be our Earth, IRL; as in, it would be totally possible for Valeros to have Ezren open a portal here and trash the Paizo offices in a drunken rage while ranting about how they never let him sleep with Merisiel. But how is that possible?
Well, if Earth and Golarion are supposed to exist as different planets within the same Universe...it can't. Because we know of Golarion's existence; we know of the Iconics, we know EVERYTHING. The only way that explanation works, is if the premise is that Paizo is actually aware of the existence of magic and other worlds and Cthulhu and whatnot, and are just lying to us when they say it's all made up.
But then, that still has quite a few holes in it. The more likely explanation would be that Earth and Golarion exist in two seperate Universes within the Prime Material (which would have to be envisioned as an entire multiverse in itself), but that doesn't seem to be the case, judging by the published sources.
This has been bothering me for YEARS, and some of my players have even commented on how the "Same Universe, different Planets and/or Galaxies" explanation makes no sense. So what's the dealio? Can someone clear this up for me? Jimmy Jack, my man, throw me a bone, here.
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Paizo didn't exist in 1918 which is the time the coexist in.
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Magic.
Er ... when was it declared that Golarion was Earth? There are some obvious parallels, but I haven't seen anything that outright said that hanging out in downtown Valenhall meant you're laying the foundations of St. John's, NL.
You're reading it wrong, earth is not Golarion, Golarion is not earth.
They do exist in the same universe, but not the same solar system, Golarion's year when Reign of Winter starts (4713?) Is the year 1918 on Earth.
Paizo didn't exist in 1918 which is the time the coexist in.
And that actually brings up a contradiction on Paizo's part. In some books, they say that time on Earth and time on Golarion are concurrent, so that every year that passes for us is a year there; ergo, 2015 AD=4715 AR. But in Reign of Winter, 4713 AR connects to 1918 AD. So what gives? Are the players traveling through space as well as time?
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Seriously. It's a made-up game world which features a recognizable "Earth" in one less-explored corner of the game world.
This "Earth" features Rasputin with ACTUAL supernatural powers, Cthulu and friends are REAL (thus Lovecraft was really on to something?)
and whose Egyptian deities have/had actual god-level powers and also have/do lend power to Clerical followers on Golarion.
How is this different than any other Sci-Fi/Fantasy set in some alt-history/timeline "Earth"?
[HINT: those are not commonly recognized features of actual real Earth]
The only way that explanation works, is if the premise is that Paizo is actually aware of the existence of magic and other worlds and Cthulhu and whatnot, and are just lying to us when they say it's all made up.
I'll end your years of misery here. No, it's just a story/game.
And Jason Bulmahn is joking when he lists on his profile that he is a Architect 4/Editor 6/Game Designer 10 with Elite NPC stat array.It's OK.
Just calmly put down the dice.
Er ... when was it declared that Golarion was Earth? There are some obvious parallels, but I haven't seen anything that outright said that hanging out in downtown Valenhall meant you're laying the foundations of St. John's, NL.
Not "Golarion is Earth". Paizo has confirmed, repeatedly, that our two worlds exist within the same universe, or multiverse, or whatever. I'm trying to figure out how.
And that actually brings up a contradiction on Paizo's part.
... Are the players traveling through space as well as time?
...Cue walking back the assertion of Paizo's contradictions...
If you think Rasputin in Paizo Books represents IRL Rasputin, you need to walk away from the gaming table for a moment.
It's "Earth" but clearly an alternate reality. Don't think too hard about it.
Go back and read the authors forward for "Rasputin must die". The author confirms the exact opposite of what you just said.
Paizo didn't exist in 1918 which is the time the coexist in.And that actually brings up a contradiction on Paizo's part. In some books, they say that time on Earth and time on Golarion are concurrent, so that every year that passes for us is a year there; ergo, 2015 AD=4715 AR. But in Reign of Winter, 4713 AR connects to 1918 AD. So what gives? Are the players traveling through space as well as time?
You've got it backwards - 4713 AR=1918 AD; thus 4714 AR=1919 AD, and 4715 AR=1920 AD.
The campaign setting advances one year per real year because it adds to verisimilitude. It makes for convenience to have the in-game year advance to 4716 as we in reality advance to 2016. That's all.
Paizo didn't exist in 1918 which is the time the coexist in.And that actually brings up a contradiction on Paizo's part. In some books, they say that time on Earth and time on Golarion are concurrent, so that every year that passes for us is a year there; ergo, 2015 AD=4715 AR. But in Reign of Winter, 4713 AR connects to 1918 AD. So what gives? Are the players traveling through space as well as time?You've got it backwards - 4713 AR=1918 AD; thus 4714 AR=1919 AD, and 4715 AR=1920 AD.
The campaign setting advances one year per real year because it adds to verisimilitude. It makes for convenience to have the in-game year advance to 4716 as we in reality advance to 2016. That's all.
I don't own the book, so I can't be sure, but I believe the Inner Sea World Guide posits the 20X=47X thing.
If you're interested about Golarion Universe Earth in year 2015 A.D.
(a point in time not explored at length by Paizo in their game)
then really there is multiple options which Paizo cannon hasn't committed to AFAIK:
1) Paizo doesn't exist in this game-world Earth
2) Game-World Paizo is meta-occultist organization with other worldly knowledge of universe.
3) Game-World Paizo is metaphysically clue-less, but happens to have created a game coincidentally similar to game-world Universe.
-A) that really is coincidence
-B) that is due to occult conspiracy, but beyond Paizo's knowledge/intention
4) Game-World Paizo's make-believe game-world doesn't actually correspond to real Game-World universe,
i.e. it's no different than Star Trek or the plays of Shakespeare within this game-world...
(note: most of their material is not 'the single truth' re: game-world, they state there is multiple theories which they present)
If you're interested about Golarion Universe Earth in year 2015 A.D.
(a point in time not explored by Paizo in their game)
then really there is multiple options which Paizo cannon hasn't committed to AFAIK:1) Paizo doesn't exist in this game-world Earth
2) Game-World Paizo is meta-occultist organization with other worldly knowledge of universe.
3) Game-World Paizo is metaphysically clue-less, but happens to have created a game coincidentally similar to game-world Universe.
-A) that really is coincidence
-B) that is due to occult conspiracy, but beyond Paizo's knowledge/intention
4) Game-World Paizo's make-believe game-world doesn't actually correspond to real Game-World universe,
i.e. it's no different than Star Trek or the plays of Shakespeare within this game-world...
(note: most of their material is not 'the single truth' re: game-world, they state there is multiple theories which they present)
Well, we know from RoW that #1 isn't right.
#2 Was my "Conspiracy" possibility.
#3A is funny, but highly unlikely.
#3B is actually quite intruiging, and had not occurred to me.
#4 I don't quite understand, nor the after note. Elaborate?
This could explain how we on Earth would know of Golarion:
The Golem
I mean, it's obviously a joke, but something similar could potentially have happened. Maybe a powerful divination wizard on Earth did some scrying or something, and published the results somewhere?
Or maybe it's like how any movie that takes place on Earth needs to pretend that it (the movie) never happened. For example, are there Terminator movies in the Terminator universe?
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I don't own the book, so I can't be sure, but I believe the Inner Sea World Guide posits the 20X=47X thing.
The current year is 4711 ar (Absalom Reckoning). As the
calendar advances in the real world, time also marches
forward for the world of Golarion. This book was published
in the year 2011, with Golarion’s corresponding year ending
in the same two final digits.
I think this paragraph is where the confusion stems from. Let's look at it from another angle.
In the specific adventure Earth becomes relevant the year is 1918. If Paizo had a historical earth setting (ie Golarion never existed), it could still advance yearly just as described. The events of the next year's books would follow the events of Earth, 1919.
Instead, they're following Golarion at the same historical era in which Earth was experiencing 1918AD.
The reason Golarion's Absalom Reckoning aligns with modern calendar dates is for simplicity. By seeing what in-game year a book depicts, you can know when it was published, and thus, what other campaign setting elements wouldn't be included. The Inner Sea World Guide has the year set as 4711AR (And was released 2011AD). Therefore, by seeing the date as 4711AR you can know that it won't include any Occult Adventures-esque content, as that was integrated 4715AR (or this year, 2015AD). Also it's easier to keep track of from a gameplay standpoint so long as you start on the current year.
4) is not that different than 3).
If you think about it, along with In-Game World Paizo with In-Game World Golarion Game World,
there is Hasbro with their D&D Game Worlds, White Wolf, many RPG game companies with game worlds...
Many of which are RATHER similar to Paizo's game world, which of course is a pastiche of fantasy RPG memes.
Are they all ALSO in on the conspiracy/metaphysical knowledge, due to this similarity? No.
In-Game Paizo's Game World doesn't necessarily have to have the same mechanics/features as real world Paizo's.
Let's say they use d21's instead of d20's, as one example.
Game Lore is no different, game-world Paizo's game world could have Pee Wee Herman as an in-game Deity.
Or Game-World Paizo's game world in fact includes a "Plane of Elemental Mucous" which prominently featured in their second AP.
There being a discrepancy between game-world Paizo and it's game-world and real-world Paizo and it's game-world
is no different or less unexpected than discrepancy between Cthulhu and "Osironi" deities actually existing and real world reality.
Or on the flip side, game world Paizo could not be "lying to us" (in-game world us?),
they could secretly (and "accurately") believe they are the true sages aware of the Great Beyond,
and willingly lay claim to that, even if mocked as lunatics by the broader world.
The idea that Lovecraft may have been somehow aware of deeper "truths" is implicitly a meme of Golarion Universe.
(but again, has many possibilities re: self-cognizance and intentionality)
Game World Paizo just isn't broadly depicted in any Paizo material, so we can't say.
Honestly I don't think Paizo is particularly interested in exploring that direction much.
Discounting amazing coincidence seems about as advisable as discounting time travel, within context of fantasy Golarion universe.
So there is many possibilities here, and likely Paizo doesn't have any one specific intention here.
They may go further down this road, or they may not... There's plenty of other aspects of world they can explore.
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I fail to see the issue unless you're taking things way too seriously. As people have said, alternate universe Earth, one where Rasputin has superpowers and Cthulhu is taking a snooze in our oceans.
What's this intro to "Rasputin Must Die?" that supposedly cancels this out?
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At one point James Jacobs and I went down a rabbit hole about this very topic, not so much to determine how the two can be in the same universe (there is no "how", they just are), but rather to determine how far from Earth Golarion is.
My assumption was that interplanetary travel via Baba Yaga's Dancing Hut was instantaneous, such that there was no time travel involved in the journey between Golarion's solar system and our own in Reign of Winter. I also assumed that Paizo is publishing material about the observable Golarion we can "see" from our current time on Earth.
Both of these are BIG ASSUMPTIONS.
But if we take them as fact—I don't see why we can't since dragons and magic and other planes of existence are accepted without much resistance—it means that we can calculate Golarion's distance from Earth within the real universe.
Since observable "now" on Golarion actually coincides with the Earth of 95 years ago, we can assume that Golarion is approximately 95 light years from Earth. We know a number of stars in this general proximity to Earth, but none (that I could find) that are yellow-oragne stars like our sun, Sol. Since Golarion orbits a sun similar to our own at a distance of roughly 1 AU, we need to look for a star with planetary bodies similar to our own.
The closest I could find in a cursory search of web resources indicates that there are a few Sol-like stars at near that distance, but that current detection methods make it difficult to discover Earth-sized planetoids at the necessary distances to foster life. I found HD 70642 around 94 ly from Sol, which has a Jupiter-like planet orbiting the star at a distance of roughly 3.3 AU. This puts the gas giant, with its mass of about double Jupiter's, at an orbit between Mars's and Jupiter's within our own solar system. If Golarion were in fact orbiting HD 70642, the planet discovered could well be Liavara, based on its orbital period and size.
Now, note the following:
The orbit of an Earth-like planet (with liquid water) around HD 70642 may be centered around 0.97 AUs -- just within the orbital distance of Earth in the Solar System -- with an orbital period of around 350 days. Astronomers would find it very difficult to detect an Earth-type planet in the water zone of this star using present methods.
We can neither confirm nor deny the existence of an Earth-like planet (Golarion) orbiting HD 70642. Therefor, we as believers in the truth of the Pathfinder campaign setting have no choice but to accept that the two worlds exist in the same reality. It's irrefutable pseudoscience.
It should be noted, however, that James Jacobs, as Creative Director, and thus final arbiter of what is and is not canon, firmly denied that my two base assumptions are true, and thus refutes the entire hypothesis. But I'm more active on the wiki than he is, so who's he to say that Golarion isn't orbiting HD 70642?
It should be noted, however, that James Jacobs, as Creative Director, and thus final arbiter of what is and is not canon, firmly denied that my two base assumptions are true, and thus refutes the entire hypothesis. But I'm more active on the wiki than he is, so who's he to say that Golarion isn't orbiting HD 70642?
Hahahaha :-)
The idea of in-game-world Paizo having Light Speed observation/communication capabilities (despite instantaneous travel/communication existing) is interesting take on basis of "time span" between events of APs and their publication on game-world Earth. Or it could just be that Paizo is publishing "historical" accounts... "Based on psychic dream crystals recovered from James Jacobs' mom's basement, site of Eoxian probe crash in 1919 A.D.". :-)
Seriously, if one constructive thing can result from this thread...
Can we ban the phrase "The only way that explanation works..." from the messageboards? :-)
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Golarion doesn't exist in the same reality as the Earth we live on. Rather, it coexists with a "Pulp Earth" where the mythos is real, and probably a lot of other genre stuff.
At one point James Jacobs and I went down a rabbit hole about this very topic, not so much to determine how the two can be in the same universe (there is no "how", they just are), but rather to determine how far from Earth Golarion is.
My assumption was that interplanetary travel via Baba Yaga's Dancing Hut was instantaneous, such that there was no time travel involved in the journey between Golarion's solar system and our own in Reign of Winter. I also assumed that Paizo is publishing material about the observable Golarion we can "see" from our current time on Earth.
Both of these are BIG ASSUMPTIONS.
But if we take them as fact—I don't see why we can't since dragons and magic and other planes of existence are accepted without much resistance—it means that we can calculate Golarion's distance from Earth within the real universe.
Since observable "now" on Golarion actually coincides with the Earth of 95 years ago, we can assume that Golarion is approximately 95 light years from Earth. We know a number of stars in this general proximity to Earth, but none (that I could find) that are yellow-oragne stars like our sun, Sol. Since Golarion orbits a sun similar to our own at a distance of roughly 1 AU, we need to look for a star with planetary bodies similar to our own.
The closest I could find in a cursory search of web resources indicates that there are a few Sol-like stars at near that distance, but that current detection methods make it difficult to discover Earth-sized planetoids at the necessary distances to foster life. I found HD 70642 around 94 ly from Sol, which has a Jupiter-like planet orbiting the star at a distance of roughly 3.3 AU. This puts the gas giant, with its mass of about double Jupiter's, at an orbit between Mars's and Jupiter's within our own solar system. If Golarion were in fact orbiting HD 70642, the planet discovered could well be Liavara, based on its orbital period and size.
Now, note the following:...
Well. My brain is now a thin, filmy goo splattered across my screen. Huzzah.
So, if I'm clear on this, if 4715=1920, (and assuming James is letting Brandon Hodge have his moment, so that in-universe Earth in 2015 is identical to ours), then in-universe Paizo is roughly chronicling the events of Golarion's history about a century ago (somehow; that's not all that important) and are publishing their findings as a fictional role-playing game. Possibly to avoid the nuthouse. Am I in the ballpark with our theories so far?
Golarion doesn't exist in the same reality as the Earth we live on. Rather, it coexists with a "Pulp Earth" where the mythos is real, and probably a lot of other genre stuff.
Well, yeah. I suppose what I and my players are struggling with is whether or not Pulp-Earth is identical to ours (but with magic and whatnot. Which, according to RoW,exists but is sort of lost and secret on Earth), and if the answer is yes (as Brandon's foreward to Rasputin Must Die seems to indicate), then how does the fourth-wall breaking stuff like Paizo (or in-universe us, for that matter) work?
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It's no crazier than the works of Plufet Smedger the Elder.
Is our reality real? Are the people I talk to really people, or just polymorphed bags of holding? HOW CAN I LIVE WHEN I'M NOT SURE?
That's rich, coming from a Mimic disguised as a bag.
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Golarion doesn't exist in the same reality as the Earth we live on. Rather, it coexists with a "Pulp Earth" where the mythos is real, and probably a lot of other genre stuff.Well, yeah. I suppose what I and my players are struggling with is whether or not Pulp-Earth is identical to ours (but with magic and whatnot. Which, according to RoW,exists but is sort of lost and secret on Earth), and if the answer is yes (as Brandon's foreward to Rasputin Must Die seems to indicate), then how does the fourth-wall breaking stuff like Paizo (or in-universe us, for that matter) work?
The answer to that is the same as the one that distinguishes fact from fiction. If we take for fact that Golarion is real (cause we all believe that, right?), then the fourth-wall is merely the boundary between non-fiction and fantasy. The fourth wall is the boundary between reality and outside observers, so if we aren't actually outside the universe in which Golarion exists, there is no fourth wall. We're simply writing non-fiction works about a world in a distant part of the galaxy.
At least I keep telling myself that.
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I just assumed they were on different planes. Different Universes, same multi-verse.
RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16
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Golarion doesn't exist in the same reality as the Earth we live on. Rather, it coexists with a "Pulp Earth" where the mythos is real, and probably a lot of other genre stuff.Well, yeah. I suppose what I and my players are struggling with is whether or not Pulp-Earth is identical to ours (but with magic and whatnot. Which, according to RoW,exists but is sort of lost and secret on Earth), and if the answer is yes (as Brandon's foreward to Rasputin Must Die seems to indicate), then how does the fourth-wall breaking stuff like Paizo (or in-universe us, for that matter) work?The answer to that is the same as the one that distinguishes fact from fiction. If we take for fact that Golarion is real (cause we all believe that, right?), then the fourth-wall is merely the boundary between non-fiction and fantasy. The fourth wall is the boundary between reality and outside observers, so if we aren't actually outside the universe in which Golarion exists, there is no fourth wall. We're simply writing non-fiction works about a world in a distant part of the galaxy.
At least I keep telling myself that.
So if we're breaking the fourth wall, and you were to write a column/article, etc where Paizo is getting their insight into Golarion via a traveler from there visiting modern day Earth similar to Ed Greenwood's Dragon magazine articles featuring Elminster visiting him to tell him of the Forgotten Realms, which character(s) are visiting from Golarion to give Paizo the scoop on events there?
I'm largely curious as to why Baba Yaga's hut would not be instantaneous, and if it's not what sort of time difference it causes. Isn't it a teleportation or plane shift effect? Like, interplanetary teleport is instantaneous.
I just assumed they were on different planes. Different Universes, same multi-verse.
In Pathfinder-Campaign-Setting cosmology, there are no alternate material planes. Only the Prime.
The correspondence between our years and Golarion years, where 2016 = 4716, is a convenience for the writers and readers/players. The actual in-game year is 1920 AD = 4716 AR. The question of whether in the game universe the history of Earth will play out in the same way as it did in the real world is a moot point. The in-game timeline hasn't gotten there yet and in all likelihood never will reach the point where one has to decide "Ok, in the campaign setting, did Gary Gygax invent Dungeons and Dragons?" because, let's be realistic, the chances are Paizo won't be around in 50 years, and if they are, they probably won't be publishing the same things they are today.
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The only way that explanation works, is if the premise is that Paizo is actually aware of the existence of magic and other worlds and Cthulhu and whatnot, and are just lying to us when they say it's all made up.
You realise that this issue applies to most fiction?
Star Trek was supposedly set in 'our' future. So was Captain Kirk aware of an ancient TV series portraying his future adventures in great detail?
Are the characters in zombie movies aware of the rules of how to kill zombies from watching zombie movies? And if so, how did those zombie movies get it right?
What would the cast of a TV soap see if they switched on the television when they were on?
Some Star Trek short stories came out with this premise: from The Original Series, "Visit to a Strange Planat" and "Visit to a Strange Planet Revisited"; aon the internet (not in print form), I have seen similar one from The Next Generation.
And now all of a sudden I'm getting visions of Pathfinder meeting Galaxy Quest . . . .
So what is the current year on earth for the current Golarion timeline 1920, 1921, etc?
It would be cool to visit earth in the 1920's in an AP that takes place mostly on earth would be cool. The occult classes, alchemist, rogue, brawler, gunslinger, slayer, and vigilante would all be good fits.
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The only way that explanation works, is if the premise is that Paizo is actually aware of the existence of magic and other worlds and Cthulhu and whatnot, and are just lying to us when they say it's all made up.You realise that this issue applies to most fiction?
Star Trek was supposedly set in 'our' future. So was Captain Kirk aware of an ancient TV series portraying his future adventures in great detail?
Are the characters in zombie movies aware of the rules of how to kill zombies from watching zombie movies? And if so, how did those zombie movies get it right?
What would the cast of a TV soap see if they switched on the television when they were on?
Note to self: when reading about surviving the zombie apocalypse take into account surviving as a zombie.
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The only way that explanation works, is if the premise is that Paizo is actually aware of the existence of magic and other worlds and Cthulhu and whatnot, and are just lying to us when they say it's all made up.You realise that this issue applies to most fiction?
Star Trek was supposedly set in 'our' future. So was Captain Kirk aware of an ancient TV series portraying his future adventures in great detail?
He would become enslaved to the Narrative. Sooner or later the Narrative will come for each of us.
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The only way that explanation works, is if the premise is that Paizo is actually aware of the existence of magic and other worlds and Cthulhu and whatnot, and are just lying to us when they say it's all made up.You realise that this issue applies to most fiction?
Star Trek was supposedly set in 'our' future. So was Captain Kirk aware of an ancient TV series portraying his future adventures in great detail?
Are the characters in zombie movies aware of the rules of how to kill zombies from watching zombie movies? And if so, how did those zombie movies get it right?
What would the cast of a TV soap see if they switched on the television when they were on?
So I used to be a big enough DC Comics nerd to actually remember Superboy crossing into the real world (Earth Prime), and this whole thread reminds me of their multiverse. The original one, anyhow - I haven't followed their stuff recently, but I hear the multiverse is back.
As I see it, 2015 Earth = 4715 Golarion = 1920 Earth-P (the Earth in the Paizo universe).