This isn't a character optimization thread. This is a campaign consistency/flavor thread.
I was working on an adventure for one of my campaigns where a NPC wizard is beginning to turn his magical research efforts towards creating a flesh golems. None of my PC spellcasters have explored this route previously and it had been quite a while since I had looked at golem creation in any detail.
Since golems run a fairly wide CR-scale with varying caster level requirements, I had reflexively assumed golems creation could apply to a pretty broad range of mid-high level casters.
In looking at the creation requirements, however, that seems to not be the case. A "simple" flesh golem (the desired golem for my adventure) has a CL of 8th, 10,500 gp cost, but some pretty high-level spell requirements in geas/quest & limited wish.
Now unless I want my NPC wizard to be mid-teens+ in level (hint: I don't), the caster is plunking down some serious change in higher-level scrolls that may or not work for him when cast. While a CR7 lackey isn't anything to sneeze at, this can get expensive really fast.
Obviously, for plot or NPC reasons, I can hand-wave a lot of those concerns away. But from an in-game verisimilitude perspective, for a upper-mid to low-teens spellcaster, are golems worth the cost/effort?
If they're not, why are there so darn many kinds of them?
Greater Make Whole spell access makes them a non throwaway resource expense investment.
Personally , i would say no unless you dont mind hand waving the cost issue.
Which to me greatly depends on who exactly is that NPC wizard of yours , to me NPCs arent meant to share the PCs concerns with gold , it really depends on their back story more to me.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Note that all items have prerequisites in their descriptions. These prerequisites must be met for the item to be created. Most of the time, they take the form of spells that must be known by the item's creator (although access through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed). The DC to create a magic item increases by +5 for each prerequisite the caster does not meet. The only exception to this is the requisite item creation feat, which is mandatory. In addition, you cannot create potions, spell-trigger, or spell-completion magic items without meeting their spell prerequisites.
By this rule, a Flesh Golem could be made with a +10 to the DC without the two high level spells. (DC 23)
give him a large focus in spellcraft so he could reasonably bypass the spell requirements. max ranks skill focus and the like.
Note that all items have prerequisites in their descriptions. These prerequisites must be met for the item to be created. Most of the time, they take the form of spells that must be known by the item's creator (although access through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed). The DC to create a magic item increases by +5 for each prerequisite the caster does not meet. The only exception to this is the requisite item creation feat, which is mandatory. In addition, you cannot create potions, spell-trigger, or spell-completion magic items without meeting their spell prerequisites.By this rule, a Flesh Golem could be made with a +10 to the DC without the two high level spells. (DC 23)
Aha! Perfect! Thank you.
Shield Guardian makes them worth it, IMO.
You know, if you have the cash.
Come on, how else can a wizard make herself some friends? Of course they're worth it!
Come on, how else can a wizard make herself some friends? Of course they're worth it!
That's what enchantments and Simulacrum are for.
If you want to pay for friendship, I am sure a trip down to the local gentleman's club will cost a lot less than a giant stone assembly animated by the soul of an elemental.
| 5 people marked this as a favorite. |
Come on, how else can a wizard make herself some friends? Of course they're worth it!That's what enchantments and Simulacrum are for.
If you want to pay for friendship, I am sure a trip down to the local gentleman's club will cost a lot less than a giant stone assembly animated by the soul of an elemental.
Maybe, but you get what you pay for. Try asking one of them to dig up spell components from the graveyard, or keep out those pesky villagers who keep showing off their torches and pitchforks just because I had a golem dig up spell components from the graveyard.
Come on, how else can a wizard make herself some friends? Of course they're worth it!That's what enchantments and Simulacrum are for.
If you want to pay for friendship, I am sure a trip down to the local gentleman's club will cost a lot less than a giant stone assembly animated by the soul of an elemental.
A. Ah, enchantment can be more trouble than it is worth. One dispell, and then there is all that yelling, and annoying people with greatswords breaking down your doors.
B. Simulacrums are out. There are reasons why he doesn't have friends- he can't stand being around himself either.
C. Well excuse me for being so Pygmalian.
In looking at the creation requirements, however, that seems to not be the case. A "simple" flesh golem (the desired golem for my adventure) has a CL of 8th, 10,500 gp cost, but some pretty high-level spell requirements in geas/quest & limited wish.
Keep in mind that you don't need to meet every requirement. Each requirement you miss raises the craft DC by 5. However, since all craft checks are intelligence-based wizards often exceed the required amount handily and you can easily complete without all the required spells.
The only requirements that cannot be skipped are the cost, the craft construct feat, and the caster level requirement.
Now unless I want my NPC wizard to be mid-teens+ in level (hint: I don't), the caster is plunking down some serious change in higher-level scrolls that may or not work for him when cast.
NPC wealth only counts towards its own gear, and not towards other things. A golem would not count towards its owner's wealth total (it instead adds its own CR to the encounter), much as you wouldn't count the wizard's castle as part of his wealth.
But from an in-game verisimilitude perspective, for a upper-mid to low-teens spellcaster, are golems worth the cost/effort?
If cost is a factor, constructs really aren't worth it. At all. If you're talking about someone with nearly limitless resources looking for a way to spend them, constructs aren't bad.
If they're not, why are there so darn many kinds of them?
It's a favorite page-filler for people who write the bestiaries.
I have a spreadsheet of constructs. Here is an excerpt:
Bottled Armada|2,600|9|6|433.3333333
Crystalline Golem|3,000|8|5|600
Skinstitch|3,500|8|5|700
Guardian Scroll|2,500|8|3|833.3333333
Tallow Golem|6,750|14|7|964.2857143
Iron Cobra|2,000|7|2|1000
Homunculus|1,050|7|1|1050
Warden Jack Swarm|4,500|8|4|1125
Soulbound Doll|2,300|7|2|1150
Guardian Doll|3,600|8|3|1200
Soulbound Mannequin|8,500|7|7|1214.285714
Iron Cobra, Darkwood|2,500|7|2|1250
Junk Golem|5,200|7|4|1300
Ship In A Bottle|2,600|9|2|1300
Carrion Golem|5,500|7|4|1375
Wood Golem|8,425|12|6|1404.166667
Necrophidius|4,250|10|3|1416.666667
Terra-Cotta Horseman|10,000|9|7|1428.571429
Rope Golem|7,200|8|5|1440
Wood Golem|8,800|7|6|1466.666667
Embalming Bear|10,300|8|7|1471.428571
Necromantic Golem|12,000|10|8|1500
Flesh Golem|10,500|8|7|1500
Tupilaq|10,500|8|7|1500
Clockwork Spy|750|12|0.5|1500
Replace "|" with tabs, and past into a spreadsheet to use.
Full google doc
/cevah
This isn't a character optimization thread. This is a campaign consistency/flavor thread.
I was working on an adventure for one of my campaigns where a NPC wizard is beginning to turn his magical research efforts towards creating a flesh golems. None of my PC spellcasters have explored this route previously and it had been quite a while since I had looked at golem creation in any detail.
Since golems run a fairly wide CR-scale with varying caster level requirements, I had reflexively assumed golems creation could apply to a pretty broad range of mid-high level casters.
In looking at the creation requirements, however, that seems to not be the case. A "simple" flesh golem (the desired golem for my adventure) has a CL of 8th, 10,500 gp cost, but some pretty high-level spell requirements in geas/quest & limited wish.
Now unless I want my NPC wizard to be mid-teens+ in level (hint: I don't), the caster is plunking down some serious change in higher-level scrolls that may or not work for him when cast. While a CR7 lackey isn't anything to sneeze at, this can get expensive really fast.
Obviously, for plot or NPC reasons, I can hand-wave a lot of those concerns away. But from an in-game verisimilitude perspective, for a upper-mid to low-teens spellcaster, are golems worth the cost/effort?
If they're not, why are there so darn many kinds of them?
The game(game creators) just think "a golem/construct be cool".
They are also useful as brute force type monsters.
Many monsters such as shadows and wraiths don't really work from an internal consistency point since they would have likely ended the world long ago.
The real issue I note is that by the time a caster has taken Craft Wondrous Item and Craft Arms/Armor and Craft Construct and plundered enough loot to pay for the DIY Robot Kit, all the other wizards have an insurmountable lead in terms of combat feats and combat-related gear. Older editions actually had magical items (special manuals) which acted rather like scrolls of 'create golem', thus allowing a mage to gain a golem without devoting all his talents and profits to the task.
Possibly, but there are a few things to note here.
1, golems can count as some very impressive combat gear. Usage of a giant gear as the business end of its attacks optional and likely to draw comment.
2, combat gear is only of need if someone's going to fight you. And if you've got a habit of hanging around golems, they tend to weed out those who would just pick a fight.
3, hobbies or intense studies don't always end up cost effective. If the wizard thinks making golems is cool, then make golems she will.
The real issue I note is that by the time a caster has taken Craft Wondrous Item and Craft Arms/Armor and Craft Construct and plundered enough loot to pay for the DIY Robot Kit, all the other wizards have an insurmountable lead in terms of combat feats and combat-related gear. Older editions actually had magical items (special manuals) which acted rather like scrolls of 'create golem', thus allowing a mage to gain a golem without devoting all his talents and profits to the task.
Well there is the Golem Manual