Venture-Lieutenant, Minnesota—Minneapolis
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People use different words to describe the same thing as much as two different people believe that one word means different things.
Reskinning, describing, refluffing, what-have-you, it's how you go about it that matters.
I'm still not certain where the line is at times.
* Changing the defined color of something shouldn't be a problem* Changing a jingasa to a helm might be alright, but what if you want it to be a hat?
* Changing a weapon to a different weapon is always right-out
* Any reskinning of familiars also seems to cross the line, given they don't allow approximating familiars from Familiar Folio
* Given the above, it seems reasonable to be strict about Animal Companions as well
Sure, you can describe your Wizard doing a little dance in a circle before bending over and shooting a Fireball out from their kilt. This is actually encouraged and supported by the Developers, and there's a recent FAQ that describes all non-Psychic spells as having these sorts of "manifestations".
What you cannot do, after describing your kilt-directed Fireball, is try to claim (IC or OOC) that your spell is something else.
Only a Rakshasa bloodline Sorcerer can do that -- cast one spell and make it appear (in game) to be a different spell.
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I don't understand your question. Refluffing and reskinning are synonymous.
Reskining: Dog is a pig. Not allowed.
Kitsume is a cat girl. Not allowed.
Refluff: Half orc alt racial trait sacred tattoo, described as tattoo or scaring in fluff. Nothing directly said it is Orcish origin but it is implied.
Half orc raised by Sisters of the Golden Eryienes. They try to beat the orc out of her, resulting in a very scarred back. Someone divine is impressed and blesses her scars the same way mechanically as if an Orc Shaman Tatooed them.
More controvertial. Same sisters left a light spell in half orcs sleeping quarters so she wouldn't develop the "unfair" advantage of darkvision. Instead, she hid books in her room thus becoming skilled (as in the human trait). Half orc alt racial traits say you can trade darkvision for skilled and mentions it happening because said half orc is something like a quarter orc rather than a half orc. Said half orc is a half orc.
Other example:
Eidolon has 10 intelligence and is introduced as the wife of the summoner. He (and player) expects the eidolon to be treated as such and will sometimes objects in RP when she is slighted. They have also bought vanities like scholar and herald and defined them as their teenage kids (player is also holding Aasimer boons to make kids future pcs).
The difference To me the latter are harmless and cool refluff backstory that has no mechanical effect on the game. IMHO, any gm who objects to the pig or the cat girl are within thier rights. Any gm who makes too much of an issue of the latter examples (assuming no other behavior issues) is more likely the one crossing the line into don't be a jerk. If he penalizes them in game (other than an odd look from an npc or such) he is possibly crossing the line into cheating.
That is the difference between reskin and re/creative fluffing.
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An eidolon is obviously an outsider but... it is a bidpedal, fully sentient, clothed, and quite likely good looking outsider with a commanding presence. In our world a non human sentient being would garner a lot of uncertainty at a party. On golarion where there's a human, an elf, a dwarf, a gnome, a halfling, an aasimar, and a tiefling all at the same fondu pot I think the "We don't serve your kind here" attitude would be entirely arbitrary. I can't think of any reason for it.
Bruce Cambel Matradi "You can't come in. You're not a real person!"
Summoner "... what?"
Bruce: "Sorry, your eidolon has no soul. there's no player controlling them. They're not real!"
Summoner: "Lord Bently I think you've been overworking your staff...."
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There's a PFS scenario in which the party goes inside for a feast and the animal companions and eidolons are explicitly forbidden from entering and told effectively to go wait in the stable. I don't remember offhand which one, but perhaps that was DM interpretation.
I think this came up in discussion on the boards (Blackros Matrimony) and it was dm interpretation.
I would let the eidolon or summoner make a diplomacy check.
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He's referring to a different one (The Immortal Conundrum), but it was still (in my opinion reasonable) GM interpretation in that case. In the specific instance that Duiker is remembering, the eidolon did get a diplomacy check to be let it, it just flubbed it.There's a PFS scenario in which the party goes inside for a feast and the animal companions and eidolons are explicitly forbidden from entering and told effectively to go wait in the stable. I don't remember offhand which one, but perhaps that was DM interpretation.I think this came up in discussion on the boards (Blackros Matrimony) and it was dm interpretation.
I would let the eidolon or summoner make a diplomacy check.
A kitsune in fox form, a horned tiefling, a toothy orc, a kitsune in FOX form, a druid in otter form, a nagaji, and an aasimar summoner with a glowing halo on their head and a slightly funnyish looking human walk into a party.
Bruce Cambel " What is this, a joke? Sorry sir, the funnyish looking human needs to wait outside. Its an eidolon.
Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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He's referring to a different one (The Immortal Conundrum), but it was still (in my opinion reasonable) GM interpretation in that case. In the specific instance that Duiker is remembering, the eidolon did get a diplomacy check to be let it, it just flubbed it.There's a PFS scenario in which the party goes inside for a feast and the animal companions and eidolons are explicitly forbidden from entering and told effectively to go wait in the stable. I don't remember offhand which one, but perhaps that was DM interpretation.I think this came up in discussion on the boards (Blackros Matrimony) and it was dm interpretation.
I would let the eidolon or summoner make a diplomacy check.
A kitsune in fox form, a horned tiefling, a toothy orc, a kitsune in FOX form, a druid in otter form, a nagaji, and an aasimar summoner with a glowing halo on their head and a slightly funnyish looking human walk into a party.
Bruce Cambel " What is this, a joke? Sorry sir, the funnyish looking human needs to wait outside. Its an eidolon.
The doorman can ID all of those on a DC 10 K:Local or planes except possibly the otter and the fox.
In other words, if he hasn't dumped int, he can recognize all of those with a take 10.
Also, both the Aasimar summoner and the funnyish looking human have glowing runes on their head. Also, since reskinning is not allowed, it doesn't look like a funnyish looking human, it looks like a humanoid shaped resident of whatever plane it came from.
Assuming the rule was animals and summoned creatures must wait outside, I would not let the otter or fox in either.
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Assuming the rule was animals and summoned creatures must wait outside, I would not let the otter or fox in either.
The observation being that he's invited pathfinders and winds up putting the most normal and most human looking one in the group in the stables with the animals over some pretty arbitrary criteria. Its kind of a crazy thing to do when you share a planet with dozens of other sentient races. Not saying the angel can be mistaken for human, just saying that it can be the closest thing to it in a group of pathfinders because... well.. pathfinders.
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Would fluffing poisons as undiluted pharmaceuticals be too far off? As far as I can tell the only benefit is less difficulties should authorities check my Physician Alchemist's doctor's bags.
I just have the mental picture of the alchemist nicking a opponent, then explaining that small amounts of such-and-such are useful for his elderly patients' arthritis, but in such high concentrations...
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Would fluffing poisons as undiluted pharmaceuticals be too far off? As far as I can tell the only benefit is less difficulties should authorities check my Physician Alchemist's doctor's bags.
I just have the mental picture of the alchemist nicking a opponent, then explaining that small amounts of such-and-such are useful for his elderly patients' arthritis, but in such high concentrations...
Its probably true.
You're still bluffing though.
Banana Spider venom for impotence (do not fact check this one if you want to sleep tonight)
Beaded lizard poison for hypertension
Tarantula for muscular dystrophy.
Cobra venom for arthris
Taxol from yew trees for cancer
food poison for plastic surgery
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The last time I significantly refluffed/reskinned anything, I was playing the psychic pregen and I declared that the somatic components for the Mind Thrust spell was a pelvic thrust.
Ooo, similar experience, but with the Spiritualist. Her ghost became the ghost of Nicolas Cage, and when he got hit by a despair effect in game, he started realizing how much a failure his acting career was and he began lamenting out-loud how he'd never make another movie.
...It was a really fun game.
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The last time I significantly refluffed/reskinned anything, I was playing the psychic pregen and I declared that the somatic components for the Mind Thrust spell was a pelvic thrust.
Inventing fun verbal and somatic components is just part of the game. I decided years ago that the verbal component for Color Spray is "Taste the rainbow!".
In another game, we had a PC dominated by a succubus. Another party member hit him with Protection from Evil to give him a reroll on the saving throw, and decided the verbal and somatic components for that were to slap him in the face and say "Bros before ho's!"
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Out of vague curiosity, how do people think things like favored enemy and knowledge checks work when a creature HAS disguised themselves via disguise/bluff?
I have a Rakshasa spawn tiefling who claims to be a catfolk. He does have reasonable disguise and bluff skills to back those claims up. And there can clearly be mechanical benefits to the disguise (somebody erroneously targeting him with hold person, for example).
As an aside, the disguise skill penalties really need expanding on :-). The same miniscule penalty for race regardless of race is just wrong
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Out of vague curiosity, how do people think things like favored enemy and knowledge checks work when a creature HAS disguised themselves via disguise/bluff?
Assuming you successfully deceived the target with a disguise check, it is reasonable to say they would knowledge check you as what you appear to be, not what you really are. Some GMs might argue that general knowledge of the race you are emulating might grant a bonus to the Perception check.
Favored enemy grants a +2 to Perception and Knowledge checks so it could certainly apply to the check to see through the disguise"I'm a Level 1 tengu, and thanks to my training in the art of disguise you need a DC 20 Perception to notice that I'm not a Human." (Tengu unchained rogue 1 with Skill Focus: Disguise, a trait boost, and a Disguise Kit, rolling average on his check.)
It might not be that simple. There could be circumstantial effects granting bonus/penalties to the Perception check. Also, depending on the nature of the interaction with those you are trying to deceive, you may have to perform Bluff checks as well to "sell" the disguise.
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"I'm a Level 1 tengu, and thanks to my training in the art of disguise you need a DC 20 Perception to notice that I'm not a Human." (Tengu unchained rogue 1 with Skill Focus: Disguise, a trait boost, and a Disguise Kit, rolling average on his check.)
"You may not realize it, but I only play a tengu in Pathfinder Society. I'm actually your average human male with really good disguise skill, an emphasis on being a good social person, the proper tools, and backing documentation"
'Rawwwrk, Rawwwrk... *obscenities censored*'
*coughs* "Pretty convincing, eh?"
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My cleric of Groetus has proffession: begger. His holy symbol is broken piece of a wooden crate with "The End is Near" written on it.
My aasimar bard claims she was directed by Kurgess to introduce an art to sporting events on Golarion.
Her combination of Oratory and Dance and revealing costumes is called "leading cheers".
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"I'm a Level 1 tengu, and thanks to my training in the art of disguise you need a DC 20 Perception to notice that I'm not a Human." (Tengu unchained rogue 1 with Skill Focus: Disguise, a trait boost, and a Disguise Kit, rolling average on his check.)"You may not realize it, but I only play a tengu in Pathfinder Society. I'm actually your average human male with really good disguise skill, an emphasis on being a good social person, the proper tools, and backing documentation"
'Rawwwrk, Rawwwrk... *obscenities censored*'
*coughs* "Pretty convincing, eh?"
"Laying that egg is what really sold it...
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Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria
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The last time I significantly refluffed/reskinned anything, I was playing the psychic pregen and I declared that the somatic components for the Mind Thrust spell was a pelvic thrust.
Just to state the obvious, but psychic casters do not use somatic components, so you didn't refluff something existing, you just added a bit of thrust to your Mind Thrust. (Yeah petty, but the rules for psychic spell casting are somewhat buried in that book, and you might not have been aware of them when you played the pregen)
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You can Take 20 in the morning when nobody's looking, too.
I'm not sure about this one... Each attempt takes 1d3x10minutes, so an average of 20 minutes... 20x20 minutes would be 400 minutes, or almost 7 hours... And possibly 10 hours.
And a lot of judges aren't going to let you try 20 times on it... YMMV.
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Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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Assuming the rule was animals and summoned creatures must wait outside, I would not let the otter or fox in either.The observation being that he's invited pathfinders and winds up putting the most normal and most human looking one in the group in the stables with the animals over some pretty arbitrary criteria. Its kind of a crazy thing to do when you share a planet with dozens of other sentient races. Not saying the angel can be mistaken for human, just saying that it can be the closest thing to it in a group of pathfinders because... well.. pathfinders.
Except it is not the most normal looking one, unless someone is reskinning.
It is a creature from the outer planes. I don't care how many assimar feats you took, your half human, half planar, does *not* look more normal than a fully planar creature!
Remember, the doorman (assuming take 10 and no ranks in knowledges) is going:
(Take 10) Teifling, they are all weird (Take 10) Wierd Aasimar, (Take 10) What the (blank) is that?
(Eidolon is a multiple hitdie outsider, IDing it would be knowledge planes 11+)
So yes, it definitely looks stranger to the average resident of Golarion, because they have no clue what it is, but they know it is nothing they have ever seen before.
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Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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My cleric of Groetus has proffession: begger. His holy symbol is broken piece of a wooden crate with "The End is Near" written on it.
Groetus worshipers are fun. Mine had dayjob "Priest of Groetus" (Temple Vanity). His portable alter was a box filled with relics from all the abandoned temples he had dedicated to Groetus. It turns out that PFS scenarios take you to a *lot* of abandoned temples. And once you explain that Groetus is not, in fact, evil, and is a vital part of the function of the universe, many pathfinders are willing to assist you in dedicating the temples you find, or at least stay out of your way.
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Except it is not the most normal looking one, unless someone is reskinning.
No reskinning required.
The eidolon takes a form shaped by the summoner’s desires
The eidolon’s physical appearance is up to the summoner, but it always appears as some sort of fantastical creature. This control is not fine enough to make the eidolon appear like a specific creature. How well you know what something is and how close it looks to human aren't the same criteria.
The only hard limit is that it can't be mistaken for a human without a disguise check, but there's more than enough room there for closer than the rest of that crowd. There certainly are pathfinders that take enough feats to go off model way further than one of these things. (Four armed tiefling alchemists with wings and a prehensile tail...)
On golarion if something is bipedal, talking, and has bilateral symmetry it might be your landlord even if you don't know what it is and the idea that its someone's wife isn't that much stranger than a human/elf relationship. (All those PFS aasimar are coming from somewhere after all) All something has to do to not show up on a DC 10 knowledge check is be a little rare.
Sending it to the stables makes no sense at all in a metropolis in this setting.
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Fertilizing it with the Druid's animal companion is where I thought the real dedication came through."Laying that egg is what really sold it..."I'm a Level 1 tengu, and thanks to my training in the art of disguise you need a DC 20 Perception to notice that I'm not a Human." (Tengu unchained rogue 1 with Skill Focus: Disguise, a trait boost, and a Disguise Kit, rolling average on his check.)"You may not realize it, but I only play a tengu in Pathfinder Society. I'm actually your average human male with really good disguise skill, an emphasis on being a good social person, the proper tools, and backing documentation"
'Rawwwrk, Rawwwrk... *obscenities censored*'
*coughs* "Pretty convincing, eh?"
Sleight of Hand is important for these sorts of interactions. Highly recommended, especially if one is going to try the tengu route. We're expected to be a bit 'shifty', after all.
*twitch, twitch*
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You can Take 20 in the morning when nobody's looking, too.
heck, get everyone else in your party to look the disguise over and give you pointers... You know, "aid another" in your attempt.
;)
(fellow adventurers helping the Tengu with his human disguise)
"I'm guessing that you might need to add some shoes to your disguise. Those three toed feet might clue them in that you aren't all human."
"And maybe pants. Yeah, wear some pants. Humans almost always wear SOMETHING below the waist."
Human only do that when they are bored.. :)
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Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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Except it is not the most normal looking one, unless someone is reskinning.No reskinning required.
The eidolon takes a form shaped by the summoner’s desires
The eidolon’s physical appearance is up to the summoner, but it always appears as some sort of fantastical creature. This control is not fine enough to make the eidolon appear like a specific creature. How well you know what something is and how close it looks to human aren't the same criteria.
So you are saying a "fantastical creature" that I don't recognize, is less strange than a half fantastical / half human that I do recognize?
I still can tell (with a take 10) that the 4 armed alchemist started out life as a Teifling. I am pretty sure the eidolon never was. It may be my landlord or his wife, but that just literally renting from the devil. (Or if I am lucky, an angel.)
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Regional Venture-Coordinator, Baltic
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People, can we stop about the intelligent eidolon that was supposedly send to the stables?
Even if it was written in the scenario, it is clear this applied to low intelligence, non-bipedal eidolons (as there were many of those pounce beasts around at the time).
There are always exceptions to the rules and I hope the next time a GM faces this question (s)he will make the right call.
At the same time, players should understand that their GM is trying his/her best to run the game to the best of their abilities (and that it isn't an easy job!), so give them a break as well!
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In my experience, eidolons are usually the place where refluffing/reskinning often cross the line or become problematic. I've noticed that there is a large subset of summoners who want to have a companion that is not some boring animal, so they take an eidolon and insist its a rare breed of dog or big fox, or something else that is confusing, without spending any extra resources to actually disguise the creature.
As long as the critter is id with knowledge:planes and is obviously not and earthly fox (for example) there is no need for them to have to spend resources to disguise said critter. They should not be penalized and any GM who does could be violating the don't be a jerk rule or cheating.
In the example you've given, there's a fundamental difference between how a PC might treat another PC who has kids with him than one will treat one who doesn't. I've also never run into anyone who claimed that his or her PC was married on either side of the screen.
I have on multiple occasions. I have two pfs characters who are. This is fluff.
But turning vanities into your children, isn't fluffing. It's fundamentally changing the relationship of the NPCs to the PC.
No, they still act as heralds and squires and even scholars, just like adolescents in vaugley medieval/renaissance settings have always done to learn a trade or the family business. If the family business is being a murderhobos...I mean Pathfinder agents you learn that. Such relationships are logical.
Would it be okay if a PC claimed he was the son of Venture-Captain Ambrus Valsin?
I personally would not go that far, but I've played with a store coordinator who has. I've played with several Blackros including one run by a VO.
And my Bard will thank you for helping her Uncle with his sleepwalking problem if you've done Night March of Kalkamendes and my retired Bone Oracle met her boyfriend at a season 0 opera peformance.
It is not my place to censor their character. I will not let them get anything special for it because it is fluff other than in highly unusual circumstances where they RP highly creative solutions (I've done it once in 90+ tables).
In my opinion, refluffing should obey the lays of trademark: You can't use it if it will confuse the PCs/NPCs about what's really going on.
That is fine. You are welcome to your opinion. But if you impose your opinion on otherwise legal characters of players otherwise behaving well, it is you, not them, who is in danger of being out of line.
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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I personally would not go that far, but I've played with a store coordinator who has. I've played with several Blackros including one run by a VO.
Of course, being a member of the Blackros family is something your character can earn. (Vagueness here, as I don't want to spoil something or hint at a boon.) In fact, simply claiming to be "Bob Blackros," a member of the family, would probably be considered particularly uncool, since that would be a claim that your PC had earned such a privilege.
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So you are saying a "fantastical creature" that I don't recognize, is less strange than a half fantastical / half human that I do recognize?
Yes. Because knowing what something is or is not is not the measure of strangeness or funny lookiness or aproximation to the human form. An octopus is both easily recognizable, funny looking, and about as far from humanity as you can get.
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Of course, being a member of the Blackros family is something your character can earn. (Vagueness here, as I don't want to spoil something or hint at a boon.) In fact, simply claiming to be "Bob Blackros," a member of the family, would probably be considered particularly uncool, since that would be a claim that your PC had earned such a privilege.
I have a character that's saving the resources for that particular something to come about. If someone showed up and just started playing a brand new character claiming such that had no way to obtain that particular something, that would very much grind my gears and I'd have to question it, either as a player or as a GM.
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Of course, being a member of the Blackros family is something your character can earn. (Vagueness here, as I don't want to spoil something or hint at a boon.) In fact, simply claiming to be "Bob Blackros," a member of the family, would probably be considered particularly uncool, since that would be a claim that your PC had earned such a privilege.I personally would not go that far, but I've played with a store coordinator who has. I've played with several Blackros including one run by a VO.
In fairness, this was done several years ago before the boon. I suspect the boon came into existence because of all the 'Bob Blackros' character s.
I know at least two of the Blackros players avoided playing their Blackros characters in Blackros scenarios to avoid this being an issue.
I think that is a very good idea. I would not start a new Blackros character without the boon and I would encourage the same policy from others.