kineticist burn points ...

[zainale]

are based on con. do you get more burn points as you level or is it just 3 + con for your whole play through?

[Texas Snyper]

3+CON is always your max. But your con should get bigger as you level. Stat increases, con belt, and elemental overflow all can boost your con score.

[lemeres]

The limit of 3+con is your max because the way burn works... it is hard to take on any more than that without passing out.

The thing is- for every point of burn you have, you take 1 nonlethal damage PER HIT DICE. That means it takes about the percentage of your health at every level (unless you con changes, obviously).

So lets check out your HP
With 2 Con allowing 1 Burn and +1 hp/hd, and that burn taking away 1hp/hd... that balances out to 0. And even if you increase con, you also increase max burn, and since we are aiming for max in this exercise, lets just write both side out there.
You have d8 hp- that means about an average of +4.5 hp per level. Lets say 5 for rounding's sake. Now, the burn allowed by con has been removed, leaving the 3. 5-3= 2.

At max burn, you are running around like a 10 con character with d3 for your hit dice! that is 40 hp at levle 20! And you want MORE BURN?! 2 more burn, and you automatically pass out!

Of course... you can increase hp in other ways (favored class bonus, toughness, etc.)...but those are 'options', nothing you 'have' to take (very smart to take though). Generally, it is silly to make a class that can make itself pass out for 24 hours without absolutely no way of solving the situation with healing spells.

So basically- the max burn is there because it is the maximum limit you can take and still have a playable character. And unlike a lot of classes with limited resources, kineticists have a TON of ways of reducing costs of their various options. So you are not hung out to dry with this, and you only 'have' to use burn when you want to nova (beyond a minimal amount, at least- as soon as level 6 runs around, I always try to have at least 3 burn due to overflow bonsues)

[zainale]

thank you lemeres that explanation was very well done. i think i get what your saying, thank you as well texas snyper.

[My Self]

It's still possible to burn yourself out, though. If you get extremely poor rolls after 1st level and never take toughness or favored class bonus for HP, by as soon as 4th level, you could have less than 3+CON HP/level on average.

But yeah, you only ever have 3+CON burn. You can up that by increasing your CON, and the effective burn cost of things goes down.

[lemeres]

My Self wrote:

It's still possible to burn yourself out, though. If you get extremely poor rolls after 1st level and never take toughness or favored class bonus for HP, by as soon as 4th level, you could have less than 3+CON HP/level on average.

But yeah, you only ever have 3+CON burn. You can up that by increasing your CON, and the effective burn cost of things goes down.

I always just kind of assume that people use something like average hp (or at least a minimum) for that very reason.

Paizo mostly moved away from randomness with character creation, with things like point buy systems.

But yes- that is a legitimate way to play the game, and under those rules, you could end up with a character that burns out.

[My Self]

lemeres wrote:

My Self wrote:

It's still possible to burn yourself out, though. If you get extremely poor rolls after 1st level and never take toughness or favored class bonus for HP, by as soon as 4th level, you could have less than 3+CON HP/level on average.

But yeah, you only ever have 3+CON burn. You can up that by increasing your CON, and the effective burn cost of things goes down.

I always just kind of assume that people use something like average hp (or at least a minimum) for that very reason.

Paizo mostly moved away from randomness with character creation, with things like point buy systems.

But yes- that is a legitimate way to play the game, and under those rules, you could end up with a character that burns out.

Intentionally doing a hero-bomb super burn out explosion thing would be cool, although burning out under regular rules kinda stinks.

[Texas Snyper]

My Self wrote:

Intentionally doing a hero-bomb super burn out explosion thing would be cool, although burning out under regular rules kinda stinks.

That'd actually be pretty cool. 6+ rounds in the BBEG fight and you super nova with metakinesises, infusions, and composite blast to then both you and the BBEG collapse on the ground.

(It'd suck if you missed though.)

[lemeres]

...and then everyone has to check their encumbrance limits to see if they can drag your butt out of the base. Better try to get your weight on the low side for your race.

I suppose that kind of kineticist would be best for women and halflings.

[My Self]

lemeres wrote:

...and then everyone has to check their encumbrance limits to see if they can drag your butt out of the base. Better try to get your weight on the low side for your race.

I suppose that kind of kineticist would be best for women and halflings.

Why not both?

[N. Jolly]

Texas Snyper wrote:

My Self wrote:

Intentionally doing a hero-bomb super burn out explosion thing would be cool, although burning out under regular rules kinda stinks.

That'd actually be pretty cool. 6+ rounds in the BBEG fight and you super nova with metakinesises, infusions, and composite blast to then both you and the BBEG collapse on the ground.

(It'd suck if you missed though.)

I'm working on something that'll let you do something very similar...

The burn limit is important though, as just burning yourself silly is difficult to do but also knocks you out for a LONG time.

[Chess Pwn]

Don't forget you're also limited in how much burn you can accept in 1 round.
"A kineticist can accept only 1 point of burn per round. This limit rises to 2 points of burn at 6th level, and rises by 1 additional point every 3 levels thereafter."

[Tharasiph]

I think it's a bit ridiculous that a lvl 20 kineticist to just use their max overflow bonuses at 7 pts of burn has to have 140 non-lethal damage.

[Texas Snyper]

Remember, you're also gaining 60hp from the +6 CON from overflow as well. It's only a net loss of 80 HP. And it's non-lethal too so no bleed out unless you actually go negative.

[Imbicatus]

Tharasiph wrote:

I think it's a bit ridiculous that a lvl 20 kineticist to just use their max overflow bonuses at 7 pts of burn has to have 140 non-lethal damage.

Yes but at 20th level with full Elemental Overflow Bonuses, that 140 HP is a much smaller percentage of your total HP than maximum burn at lower levels.

[Imbicatus]

Texas Snyper wrote:

Remember, you're also gaining 60hp from the +6 CON from overflow as well. It's only a net loss of 80 HP. And it's non-lethal too so no bleed out unless you actually go negative.

Which you have a 140 HP buffer on. Really the only thing that is going to kill you if you pass out is a coup de grace.

[SheepishEidolon]

And she will achieve much more with these 7 points of burn than a lower level kineticist would. She gets more base power, more options and less burn cost per effect.

[lemeres]

Tharasiph wrote:

I think it's a bit ridiculous that a lvl 20 kineticist to just use their max overflow bonuses at 7 pts of burn has to have 140 non-lethal damage.

Remember- they are basically CON casters, so their CON is sky high. And since they end up burning health, it is VERY advisable to grab hp for favored calss bonus adn the toughness feat.

So some rough numbers came from: 8 (level 1 hp from dice) +19(4 hp per level) +20(4 from base con of 18) +20 (3 for +6 con belt) +20 (fcb) +20 (toughness) + 20 (2 for level up bonuses going to con) +20(3 from +6 con in overflow). And this is probably ont he conservative side.

Also remember that many kineticists have great defenses that make them sturdy in other ways too. Earth has DR, water has AC boosts, and aether has temp hp (and if you are pumping your burn into that, then you are basically getting half of the hp back- that 7 burn feels like 3.5 burn...which feels like .5 burn from the overflow bonuses- which leaves you are a con based class with decent enough hit dice, making you VERY sturdy)

[DunbarexodusIII]

The kineticist is an idea that has never been tried before. Class balance was always tricky given that magic has such overwealming potential. The Kineticist is an attempt to balance impressive at will abilities by providing direct and punishing consequences for "improving" their basic abilities. The concept of pay to use abilities is rather new. It was obviously influenced by the Warlock from D&D 3.5 However unlike the Kineticist, the Warlock didn't have any consequences of ability use. Their abilities were free, the rational was that they had an extremely limited # of abilities to draw upon.

Here the Kineticist has virtually the same limited ability options, the same options to improve/modify their abilities and the same damage potential. Where this starts to get confusing is in how the penalties are to be interpreted. There are many abilities that mitigate the Burn damage.

Kineticists pay 0 burn for basic blasts and through normally acquired means can reduce infusion burn costs " infusion specialization" by up to 6 at LV20. this is not including the "gather power" ability that allows her to ignore the first 1-3 burn based on the time spent gathering. They can also "store" unused burn for later by way of placing them in her "internal buffer" another 1-3 points. Thus giving her 1-3 additional free points of burn available to her the next day.

Using these abilties a kineticist can and should have a virtually unlimited repatoire of damaging and powerful blasts that cost nothing. Just like the Warlock. Only twice as powerful.

Its only really when attempting to really go big that Burn becomes limited. Maxing out at 6 Burn per round not with standing the above mentioned methods of reduction, it is conceivable that a pyro kineticist at 19th level could perform a:(Feel free to do the math)

Kinetic Blast
Blue flame 2(reduced to 0 burn) composite specialization and internal buffer
Form Explosion 4(reduced to 0 burn) infusion specialization
Doubled ( 4 Burn META gained at lv 17)
Quickened 3(reduced to 0 Burn) gather power 1 full round
Maximized ( 2 Burn Meta)
Empowered 1( reduced to 0 Burn) Metakinetic master

Costing 6 Burn total and 120HP of non-lethal

Range up to 120ft
Causing 2x 144 hp of damage to a 40ft diameter area all for a swift action the following round of a gather power. Leaving a follow up move action to gather power (2 burn reduction) and a standard action to inflict an additional Blue flame empowered, maximized, explosion(0 Burn Cost) causing another 144HP(+CON) to that same 40ft area. (This alone doable for free (0 Burn cost) is mind blowing.)

Total area target damage 432HP spread over 2 rounds !!!

Tell me again how a 20th level fighter can compare for damage output?

My concern is the ability to stack Metakinesis. Wizards must consume higher level spell slots, limiting the level of spell that can be effected and the type of meta magic feats that can be combined. The Burn mitigation does not limit the stacking effects nearly enough to be balancing. I would suggest a Maximum Burn VALUE before mitigation to help control the scaling effects here. Instead of the percieved maximum burn accepted/taken

[Bondranx]

DunbarexodusIII wrote:

The kineticist is an idea that has never been tried before. Class balance was always tricky given that magic has such overwealming potential. The Kineticist is an attempt to balance impressive at will abilities by providing direct and punishing consequences for "improving" their basic abilities. The concept of pay to use abilities is rather new. It was obviously influenced by the Warlock from D&D 3.5 However unlike the Kineticist, the Warlock didn't have any consequences of ability use. Their abilities were free, the rational was that they had an extremely limited # of abilities to draw upon.

Here the Kineticist has virtually the same limited ability options, the same options to improve/modify their abilities and the same damage potential. Where this starts to get confusing is in how the penalties are to be interpreted. There are many abilities that mitigate the Burn damage.

Kineticists pay 0 burn for basic blasts and through normally acquired means can reduce infusion burn costs " infusion specialization" by up to 6 at LV20. this is not including the "gather power" ability that allows her to ignore the first 1-3 burn based on the time spent gathering. They can also "store" unused burn for later by way of placing them in her "internal buffer" another 1-3 points. Thus giving her 1-3 additional free points of burn available to her the next day.

Using these abilties a kineticist can and should have a virtually unlimited repatoire of damaging and powerful blasts that cost nothing. Just like the Warlock. Only twice as powerful.

Its only really when attempting to really go big that Burn becomes limited. Maxing out at 6 Burn per round not with standing the above mentioned methods of reduction, it is conceivable that a pyro kineticist at 19th level could perform a:(Feel free to do the math)

Kinetic Blast
Blue flame 2(reduced to 0 burn) composite specialization and internal buffer
Form Explosion 4(reduced to 0 burn) infusion specialization
Doubled ( 4 Burn META gained at lv 17)...

While all of this is true, a kineticist using infusions gives the enemy saving throws, one for substance, one for form, and the ability is then subject to SR and energy resistance if the blast is energy based, so while yes this is a huge burst, if they make their saves then the Kineticist just used 6 burn on an attempted nova that went deeply sideways, especially if they fail the caster level check for SR.

[Ryan Freire]

Tharasiph wrote:

I think it's a bit ridiculous that a lvl 20 kineticist to just use their max overflow bonuses at 7 pts of burn has to have 140 non-lethal damage.

built well with an avg of 5 hp a lvl 20 kineticist with 7 pts of burn should still have 200 hp.

[Ryan Freire]

lemeres wrote:

Tharasiph wrote:

I think it's a bit ridiculous that a lvl 20 kineticist to just use their max overflow bonuses at 7 pts of burn has to have 140 non-lethal damage.

Remember- they are basically CON casters, so their CON is sky high. And since they end up burning health, it is VERY advisable to grab hp for favored calss bonus adn the toughness feat.

So some rough numbers came from: 8 (level 1 hp from dice) +19(4 hp per level) +20(4 from base con of 18) +20 (3 for +6 con belt) +20 (fcb) +20 (toughness) + 20 (2 for level up bonuses going to con) +20(3 from +6 con in overflow). And this is probably ont he conservative side.

Also remember that many kineticists have great defenses that make them sturdy in other ways too. Earth has DR, water has AC boosts, and aether has temp hp (and if you are pumping your burn into that, then you are basically getting half of the hp back- that 7 burn feels like 3.5 burn...which feels like .5 burn from the overflow bonuses- which leaves you are a con based class with decent enough hit dice, making you VERY sturdy)

Earth/water has a strong argument for the best class based (non spellcaster) defenses in the game.

At level 20 with 7 burn you have:
dr 10/adamantine
Cold Resistance 14
Fire resistance 14
+10 to shield ac or with kinetic knight +4 in armor enchantments you dont have to pay gold for.
20% miss chance from shimmering mirage

[Melkiador]

Not every game uses downtime rules, but the kineticist can gain a lot by using retraining to raise its hit points.