In light of the Alchemist's Throw Anything ability, is there anything preventing simply gluing or tying two splash weapons together for the purpose of throwing simultaneously?
I presume that it would suffer from an Improvised Weapon Penalty, which an Alchemist could safely ignore, but would it otherwise work?
Would it be treated as a single alchemical item, or two, for the purpose of applying Int based damage?
Assuming there is nothing technically stopping this from happening, what would prevent anyone from simply attaching as many as they can lift and throwing the lot? The heaviest standard weapon is 14lbs, and can be thrown as a full round action.
The only reference that comes close to addressing this issue is the Hybridization funnel, which allows for physically mixing two different splash weapons, which would seem to be an unnecessary step except where penalties for improvisation and encumbrance might be incurred.
Any thoughts would be appreciated.
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Throwing an acid? Fine.
Throwing two acids duct taped together? Improvised weapon (which Throw Anything should mitigate) and you made it bigger, so -2 to hit, and now technically takes two hands. I would only allow Intelligence modifier to damage once.
Which makes it similar to Rapid Shot.
These weapons were balanced with the intention that you throw one at a time. Doing this smacks of gaining extra power without actually paying for it.
That seems to be the essence of using an ability to its fullest. Classes are balanced on the premise that the players aren't more clever than than the designers, which is a losing battle. Asking a caster or other player 'not' to use their abilities effectively means they'll be in a continuous state of self-restraint.
Shrink Item and Telekinesis are great examples of spells that can achieve ridiculous results without ever pushing the rules.
Yes, you need a Hybridization Funnel to do this.
To achieve 'what', specifically? Gluing two items together is a given. Who would they not both break on impact?
Logically this should work. But I'll bet the percentage of PFS GMs that would allows this will be in the single digits. If you were tying them together, I am certain GMs would concoct all kinds of reasons why it failed.
I agree that it would likely be vetoed by the GMs, since there is no clear ruling. People wouldn't normally throw more than one, but since it mechanically makes sense, and Alchemists do have an ability called 'Throw Anything', it's kind of implied that they will be throwing uncommon objects.
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It would be particularly appealing if you could get +Int to splash damage on 5+ glued Acid flasks. It would be extremely dangerous.
Venture-Agent, Florida–Altamonte Springs
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Yes, you need a Hybridization Funnel to do this.To achieve 'what', specifically? Gluing two items together is a given. Who would they not both break on impact?
With the Hybridization Funnel there is an in game way to accomplish it without having to come up with rules on the fly, which is what the "gluing two flasks together" causes.
With the Hybridization Funnel there is an in game way to accomplish it without having to come up with rules on the fly, which is what the "gluing two flasks together" causes.
It definitely makes sense to lean on the funnel considering that combining any more than two splash weapons strains credulity. For the sake of streamlining gameplay, there really shouldn't be any other answer.
Since I'm new to PFS a more relevant question may be, as a 200gp magic item, is the funnel available for purchase or must it be found in a scenario? I can't imagine it ever showing up naturally, so that would make glue far more appealing, if not the only option within PFS.
It's available when you have 5 Fame.
Ohhhh! That's how that table works! That makes so much more sense. Thanks!
Throwing an acid? Fine.
Throwing two acids duct taped together? Improvised weapon (which Throw Anything should mitigate) and you made it bigger, so -2 to hit, and now technically takes two hands. I would only allow Intelligence modifier to damage once.Which makes it similar to Rapid Shot.
You mean Manyshot?
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Not quite what the OP is looking for, but...
Look up an item called the Focusing Flask.
You're welcome :)
Throwing an acid? Fine.
Throwing two acids duct taped together? Improvised weapon (which Throw Anything should mitigate) and you made it bigger, so -2 to hit, and now technically takes two hands. I would only allow Intelligence modifier to damage once.Which makes it similar to Rapid Shot.
Size shouldn't matter, since it'll still be smaller than a 14lb thrown melee weapon by several size categories, which can be thrown without additional problem beyond normal penalties. I don't think it is ever mentioned whether throwing melee weapons require more hands.
Not quite what the OP is looking for, but...
Look up an item called the Focusing Flask.
You're welcome :)
Nice! For 700gp + the cost of 3 splash weapons, it feels a bit pricy, but with alchemist +Int to damage bonus and the fact that it doesn't have a 24 hour expiration, it may just have some value... now... can you mix three concoctions with the Hybridization Funnel, then place them within a Focusing Flask for a total of 6 splash weapons being released at once? Looks like it. :)
Edit: It looks like the issue of +Int bonuses came up for this particular combination in another thread without any real resolution. High end suggest it would be 6× int damage, some say 1×int. However, since hybridization produces a single new splash weapon and the focus flask 'compresses' three doses which are then released simultaneously, it seems like it should allow for 3xint. Mechanically, it should boil down to whether the alchemist is enhancing the product as he throws, or is he adding finesse to the throw. There really isn't any finesse to touch attacks, so it must be augmentation per dose. Three physical doses, three times the augmentation.
Even if the rules totally allowed, you can bet your sweet bippy that most GMs are going to tell you no way. You'd need an official FAQ allowing it, you'd need to have that in your hand, and even then you'd have to be prepared for an occasional GM to refuse to allow it.
Let's see... 800gp for 6d6 damage plus 5 foot splash.
A necklace of Fireball charges 150gp per d6 of damage, so for 750gp you could do 5d6 damage in a 20 foot radius.
The undisputed beads do comparable damage over 5 times the area.
Do you still think it's unreasonable?
This combination would only have any value to an alchemist since anyone else would be better off purchasing the existing fireball beads.
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now... can you mix three concoctions with the Hybridization Funnel, then place them within a Focusing Flask for a total of 6 splash weapons being released at once? Looks like it. :)Even if the rules totally allowed, you can bet your sweet bippy that most GMs are going to tell you no way. You'd need an official FAQ allowing it, you'd need to have that in your hand, and even then you'd have to be prepared for an occasional GM to refuse to allow it.
I don't see any GMs disallowing this (once you have explained what you are doing and shown the relevant sources). It's really expensive. And nothing in the description of Focusing Flask says it removes the 24-hour expiration if you don't use it.
This is doing something unusual, flavorful, and not the most optimized choice. It's what I like to see players doing.
It's not what I think, it's the arbitrary ways in which GMs will decide whether your conduct is considered an "exploit." You've already seen people accusing the rather logical and sensible idea of glueing two flasks together as an "exploit." Good thing someone already invented the raft, because tying two logs together might also be called an exploit.
Hah, then it's fortunate that my original intention for playing the alchemist was for the giggles and not the combat power. I'll just have to draw up a very clear and concise diagram explaining the steps and be content if it gets hand waved away.
This is doing something unusual, flavorful, and not the most optimized choice. It's what I like to see players doing.I see GMs say that until a player trivializes an encounter, then suddenly they start calling things an "exploit."
Like using Shrink Item and Telekinesis to carry and launch 15 Collosal++++ dark wood bolts for 180d6 damage?
That's a PC's version of "Rock Falls, Everyone Dies".
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Size shouldn't matter, since it'll still be smaller than a 14lb thrown melee weapon by several size categories, which can be thrown without additional problem beyond normal penalties. I don't think it is ever mentioned whether throwing melee weapons require more hands.Throwing an acid? Fine.
Throwing two acids duct taped together? Improvised weapon (which Throw Anything should mitigate) and you made it bigger, so -2 to hit, and now technically takes two hands. I would only allow Intelligence modifier to damage once.Which makes it similar to Rapid Shot.
Throwing melee weapons requires the same number of hands they require to wield them (one hand for light and one-handed, two hands for two handed). Throwing a weapon with two hands is also a full-round action.
Throwing melee weapons requires the same number of hands they require to wield them (one hand for light and one-handed, two hands for two handed). Throwing a weapon with two hands is also a full-round action.
Good catch. Any thoughts on how that applies to improvised weapons?
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You look at roughly the size of the improvised item. Compare it to Dagger, Club, or Two-handed sword. Alternatively, if you double the size of an item,change to next category.A dart is a one-handed light weapon. A dagger is twice the weight and length of a dart. That doesn't make it the next category. Glueing two darts together would not suddenly change the item to the next category.
Let's not just make up rules that don't exist or are plainly contradicted by common sense.
There are no rules as far as I'm aware to handle this. Kjatan asked for people's thoughts on how to do it and Andrew Christian gave two different ways you could try to calculate this. And please don't try invoking "common sense" because that really has no place in the game. Many rules of the game go against common sense, and heck some common sense goes against real life.
You look at roughly the size of the improvised item. Compare it to Dagger, Club, or Two-handed sword. Alternatively, if you double the size of an item,change to next category.
A heavy mace is an 8lb one-handed weapon, so we could probably get away with throwing 8 bound flasks with one hand, assuming they are arranged in moderately ideal configurations. Most two handed weapons are such because of their unusual length to weight ratio.
Though really, it's a bit of a non-issue. Whether it takes two hands, one hand, standard action, or full action, if a low level character is dealing 10d6+ damage in a given round, the fight is probably over.
If you're using glue or knots, I'd definitely require two hands—you need a secure grip so one of the flasks doesn't come off mid-throw. Just good sense. ;P
If you're using glue or knots, I'd definitely require two hands—you need a secure grip so one of the flasks doesn't come off mid-throw. Just good sense. ;P
For poorly constructed knots or shoddy glue, that would be reasonable. On the other hand, Sovereign Glue requires magic just to keep it from permanently binding to its own bottle. A single bottle of Sovereign Glue could securely attach dozens of flasks, with no risk of separating.
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You look at roughly the size of the improvised item. Compare it to Dagger, Club, or Two-handed sword. Alternatively, if you double the size of an item,change to next category.A dart is a one-handed light weapon. A dagger is twice the weight of a dart. That doesn't make it the next category. Glueing two darts together would not suddenly change the item to the next category.
Let's not just make up rules that don't exist or are plainly contradicted by common sense.
This game is pretty granular as is. But many of the rules are set up as abstracts to get rid of a crazy and untenable level of granularity.
The weapon size rules are not very specific. When some weapons of similar weight are considered different size categories, using weight to calculate much of anything really doesn't work in context with the rules we have.
Enlarge person doubles the size of held weapons essentially making them for one step larger creature. A large longsword can be held in two hands by a medium sized creature. This type of doubling happens regardless of the physical metrics of the weapon (weight, length, density, material, etc.)
Thus the rules support my theorizing that tying two weapons together (effectively doubling it's size) increases the weapon size to the next category. This is regardless of the comparison between weapons in the same category having significantly different physical metrics.
A dart that is enlarged becomes a one-handed weapon when wielded by a medium creature. Regardless whether it is still the same size as a medium dagger.
Therefore, if you tie or glue two splash weapons together, they essentially change from a one-handed ranged weapon to a two-handed thrown weapon.
But the rules don't consider this type of loop hole for extra damage. In a home game, a GM has leeway to allow or disallow this, or create thier own common sense rules for how it should work. But there are no rules for how this should work. As such, in an absence of a rule in PFS, a GM has a choice to make up a rule on the spot, or RAW disallow it.
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Nice! For 700gp + the cost of 3 splash weapons, it feels a bit pricy, but with alchemist +Int to damage bonus and the fact that it doesn't have a 24 hour expiration, it may just have some value... now... can you mix three concoctions with the Hybridization Funnel, then place them within a Focusing Flask for a total of 6 splash weapons being released at once? Looks like it. :)
Edit: It looks like the issue of +Int bonuses came up for this particular combination in another thread without any real resolution. High end suggest it would be 6× int damage, some say 1×int. However, since hybridization produces a single new splash weapon and the focus flask 'compresses' three doses which are then released simultaneously, it seems like it should allow for 3xint. Mechanically, it should boil down to whether the alchemist is enhancing the product as he throws, or is he adding finesse to the throw. There really isn't any finesse to touch attacks, so it must be augmentation per dose. Three physical doses, three times the augmentation.
No, you cannot combine these...they specifically work opposite of each other. Bolded sections for emphasis. A focusing flask counts as a single thrown splash weapon and gets INT to damage only once. You cannot combine mixtures from Hybridization Funnels (Which must be different liquids). You cannot put a mixture from a Hybridization Funnel into a Focusing Flask (Which can only be one type of liquid).
Throw Anything (Ex): All alchemists gain the Throw Anything feat as a bonus feat at 1st level. An alchemist adds his Intelligence modifier to damage done with splash weapons, including the splash damage if any. This bonus damage is already included in the bomb class feature.
This round, rainbow-hued glass flask allows up to three alchemical splash weapons of the same type to be poured into it, concentrating them such that they never increase its weight noticeably. If multiple types of alchemical items are poured in, all the contents are ruined. The flask can be thrown as a normal splash weapon, and when it breaks, it releases all of the contained splash weapons in the same space, and the focusing flask is destroyed. If the items held within the flask normally allow a saving throw to reduce or negate the effects, the target of a focusing flask needs to succeed at only a single saving throw, regardless of the number of items held within the focusing flask. The DC of the saving throw increases by 2 if the flask contains two alchemical items, or by 4 if it contains three items.
This two-spouted funnel is used to safely mix two alchemical splash weapons into a single flask. Using the vial requires 10 minutes and a DC 25 Craft (alchemy) check; a half-elf has a +5 bonus on this check. Failing the check means both splash weapon are destroyed. Success means the two materials are safely mixed into one vial that is the same volume as a normal splash weapon vial; when thrown as a splash weapon, the mixture has the effects of both component substances and creatures are affected as if hit by both. The mixture becomes inert after 24 hours. Only liquids may be mixed with the funnel. The bearer can use it to mix an alchemical splash weapon with either holy water or unholy water, but the Craft (alchemy) DC increases to 30; half-elves still get the +5 bonus on this check. The funnel does not work on potions, elixirs, extracts, or other materials. Mixing a substance with a similar or identical substance (such as alchemist’s fire with alchemist’s fire) has no effect. A mixture cannot be combined with another mixture.
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Venture-Agent, Missouri—St. Louis
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If you're using glue or knots, I'd definitely require two hands—you need a secure grip so one of the flasks doesn't come off mid-throw. Just good sense. ;PFor poorly constructed knots or shoddy glue, that would be reasonable. On the other hand, Sovereign Glue requires magic just to keep it from permanently binding to its own bottle. A single bottle of Sovereign Glue could securely attach dozens of flasks, with no risk of separating.
The glue might also do a pretty good job of holding the bottles together in the first place. Covering your flimsy glass vials in a rubbery flexible coating is probably not a good way to guarantee they break when thrown.
No, you cannot combine these...they specifically work opposite of each other. Bolded sections for emphasis. A focusing flask counts as a single thrown splash weapon and gets INT to damage only once. You cannot combine mixtures from Hybridization Funnels (Which must be different liquids). You cannot put a mixture from a Hybridization Funnel into a Focusing Flask (Which can only be one type of liquid).
That is not necessarily true. Yes, they perform different functions, but they also function differently on a fundamental level. Example:
I have a pint of cherry grenadine, and a pint of Sprite, but I really want a Shirley Temple (Mixture of Sprite and grenadine).
The Hybridization funnel allows you to safely mix the grenadine and sprite into a 1 pint container which contains 0.5 pints of grenadine and 0.5 pints of sprite.
You now have 1 pint of Shirley Temple. A new Hybridized splash weapon.
Now you want to have a pitcher of Shirley Temple, so you make two more pints, and pour them into the Focusing Flask.(Placing Whiskey, beer, and Shirley temple all in a pitcher would ruin all three, but three of the same drink would be the same in the end.)
Since the Flask 'Compresses' (It's based on Shrink Item), the container may only be 1 pint in volume, but contains 3 pints of Shirley temple. It may even have 3 separate reservoirs, keeping them separate if necessary.
The initial mixture of Firey Acid would only get one bonus from Int, since it's a single pint sized splash weapon, but the final flask would get x3, because it physically has x3 pints of splash weapon.
Alchemists don't finesse their throws. it's not precision damage which would require concentration, splash weapons don't have finesse. They must augment the splash weapons magically at the time of throwing, or mundanely, and three times the volume provides three times as much material to augment. I suppose you could say they only have enough juice to augment a single pint of splash weapon at a time, but that isn't based in anything.
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Or if you want to get picky about it, you just said that the final product of the Focus Funnel is a single splash weapon, right?
Then simply reverse the process, take a Focusing Flask of Acid, and a Focusing Flask of Alchemists fire, and use the Hybridization Funnel to fill a third focusing flask with the new concentrated Firey Acid for exactly the same result..
The glue might also do a pretty good job of holding the bottles together in the first place. Covering your flimsy glass vials in a rubbery flexible coating is probably not a good way to guarantee they break when thrown.
That, it might. To which, I suppose, the solution would be to only use small amounts of glue, not entire doses. Coating the entire flask with glue would be pretty darn wasteful when only a single point or line on either flask is going to be in contact.
At the very least, I would expect the awkwardness to effect the range increment of the combined weapon. Probably the hit roll as well.
The awkwardness is accounted for in the Improvised Ranged Weapon penalty of -4 to hit and max increment of Range 10'. However, this is already the range of splash weapons, and Alchemists have the Throw Anything class ability, which mitigates the penalty.
For anyone who wants 'proficiency' with splash weapons, (meant differently than traditional weapon proficiency), then the Splash Weapon Mastery feat is available to halve the range penalty and provide a bonus to hit.
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It's too bad that the OP can't be edited. It would be nice to add UPDATE tags, so that anyone who finds this thread later might be able to get the TL;DR.
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If you're using glue or knots, I'd definitely require two hands—you need a secure grip so one of the flasks doesn't come off mid-throw. Just good sense. ;PFor poorly constructed knots or shoddy glue, that would be reasonable. On the other hand, Sovereign Glue requires magic just to keep it from permanently binding to its own bottle. A single bottle of Sovereign Glue could securely attach dozens of flasks, with no risk of separating.
Yes, I was assuming it wasn't Sovereign Glue. That would definitely be sufficient.
That said, something that came to mind is this: The flasks won't break as-one. They each break separately, meaning there's some chance that only, say, two out of four will break when they hit the target (the ones that absorb the blow).
That said, another thing that came to mind: Why are we gluing or tying in the first place? Buy a bigger bottle, cheapskate.
That would be a dreadful waste of at least one bottle of beer. :)
The logic is simple: When you break one bottle, it's all bonded together, so one break means the whole bottle is broken or even shattered. But the two bottles are still two bottles, and breaking one does not necessarily break the other, even though it's connected. It certainly can, but it's not something to take for granted here.
Buy a bigger bottle, cheapskate.
That would be the easiest alternative by far! Albeit, it wouldn't provide the same flexibility of throwing a dozen different types of splash weapons.
I'm surprised this doesn't have any mechanics defined. The Focus Flask, 'essentially' serves this purpose, but a bigger flask is a far better mundane option.
Based on what rational or logic? Please go toss four beer bottles glued together and tell me how many times out of one hundred you can break one bottle and not the others.
Glue enough together and it might cause problems, but by the time that many are connected, we'd probably run into other problems. Toss a carton of eggs 50 feet, and the odds of them all breaking are high enough to not bother checking, and that's with the insulating packaging. Give them something solid, like rocks or armor, and they're goners.
Max damage any unenhanced splash weapon can achieve is 10d6, which is total submersion. It might even be kosher to tell a player that max splash damage from a single source is 5d6, to account from only being able to coat one side of the target.
Heck, by this logic I could just tie two (or more) maces together to increase damage output. Or heck, why stop at 2? The new terror weapon becomes 6 clubs roped together.
I (as a player) do not want to have my PCs face this sort of thing from authors. Goblin ties 47 flasks of acid together and drops them on a group of PCs in a 15'x15' room. 47d6 on the center guy and 47hp splash on the others... Really?
Shush... Time for me to go back to bed.
You seem to forget that this is actually already a thing players can do by attempting to wield oversized weapons. With melee weapons, weight becomes the primary limiter. Tying two maces together would be the equivalent of carrying an improvized large mace.
The reason why splash weapon logic doesn't apply to melee weapons is because they function entirely differently. And, as has already been indicated within this thread, a Focusing Flask already achieves 'attaching 2+ flasks together' with both taking full effect, so it seems to simply be a matter of price.
Maximum damage from flasks in a single round would necessarily be 10d6 for full immersion. A goblin would have a heck of a time lifting 47 pounds of flasks. They'd be better off tipping over a vat. The mechanic I proposed for this was that the max damage a player should be able to do with unmodified splash weapons is 5d6, to indicate 50% immersion, since only half of the body is exposed when wielding a ranged touch weapon.
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If you want to throw two or three doses of the same alchemical substance, use a Focusing Flask. If you want to throw two different types together, use a Hybridization Funnel. It's very straight-forward.
Does it work to glue regular flasks together? No, because those two items exist. We could all go around inventing reasons why, to the characters, it doesn't work, but it doesn't.
Can I drink a potion underwater? No, because then the potion sponge would be a useless item. Can you look at a fallen comrade and tell whether or not she's dead? No, because that's what the spell deathwatch is used for. Can I swing my weapon really hard, hitting less often but doing more damage? Not without Power Attack.
If your clever idea is a work-around to avoid a piece of equipment, a spell, or a feat, then no, it doesn't work.
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Does it work to glue regular flasks together? No, because those two items exist. We could all go around inventing reasons why, to the characters, it doesn't work, but it doesn't.
Can I drink a potion underwater? No, because then the potion sponge would be a useless item
Sometimes prone shooter options make it to print. Prone shooter, rumor monger, and possibly the potion sponge.