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Usually niche stuff that isn't covered by the core rules.
So mostly classes & rule sets, only occasionally adventures (though I did buy Way of the Wicked and contributed to the Snow White KS that should be finishing up soon). We run in a homebrew world/campaign so usually it is just mining other material for things to be brought in or maybe as a basis for something we are working on, to be ripped apart and take the bits and pieces we find useful or like.
As for balance, it is in the eye of the beholder. A good GM can make anything work really. Some 3PP items are better balanced than Paizo products at times. But the reality is, even for Paizo. The more material you make, the more power creep will occur. It is the nature of the game. And the whole reason these people are in business is to sell more material.
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New spells and new classes, especially those that step outside the "core" mechanics of the game (non-standard Fighter types, non-Vanciant casters, etc.). It's one of the reasons Dreamscarred Press is one of my favorite 3pp companies - almost every one of their products is about stepping outside the basic rules of D&D/Pathfinder and using different mechanics to achieve (IMO) superior results.
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Archetypes are a big one.I like new archetypes, new spells (but that's a mixed bag), monsters, feats (also mixed bag), and probably... setting information. Sometimes I'll go all in for a character option (new class with lots of support, such as what Dreamscarred Press puts out), but I'd have to be really invested in that kind of class.
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In the discussion of balance, A lot of third party material that's popular balances itself alright but in regards to material for existing classes I am a huge fan of power creep for some classes and have specifically sought out power creep for Fighters and Monks. Personally I don't think that there's enough.
Outside of that I tend to seek out material that helps with specific campaign settings I run, fill out character concepts that I think is missing from the game or new play modes that can be fun. There are some design paradigms and assumptions that grow stale in Pathfinder and third party products really help out with that.
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I share with the sentiment of new systems. For example, I was not outrageously impressed with the Occult Adventures, but I would seriously consider removing the Sorcerer from my games in favor of the Psychic and using psionics as my psychic magicians. Also, I'm very happy with the love (and balance) mythic play received from the Mythic Hero's Handbook.
Monster books.
Campaign Settings. Big or small.
Sourcebooks fleshing out a theme.
Adventures that look really neat.
Occasionally player oriented stuff in a niche that looks interesting (I picked up Covenant Magic by Purple Duck Games recently).
Good deals. I don't lack for stuff or for options of good stuff to buy.
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Might as well list what I don't look for.
I tend to stay away from fluff pieces. This means adventures and campaign settings with the exception of high concepts and delving out of genre. Between the 4 Paizo adventure paths, dozens of Paizo modules and homebrew adventures I've written I've run exactly 2 third party modules, 1 Paizo module and 3 PFS scenarios go from start to finish (not including small modules or scenarios that I cheat into a campaign) so I'm already kind of backed up on adventures. With campaign settings, specifically ones that are still somewhere in the medieval stasis belt, don't interest me because I tend to homebrew adventures in my own homebrew worlds so I just don't seek them out. and When its something that does appeal to me I tend to get them more for the crunch than the fluff because I'll be using the concepts for my own homebrew worlds.
I avoid support for core races or races that have a lot of support. I like to have settings with races based on the theme of the setting and the non-human core races often don't fit. I could force them to but really I have a lot of races that need some spotlight and campaign relevance.
I didn't before but now I'm avoiding Paizo class support to some extent. I have too many popular class books that if it's not helping the weaker classes then I just don't need it. between the stuff I got you can do pretty much any kind of character you can think of.
I'm also avoiding spells now. I have Deep Magic(over 700 spells), 1001 Spells, 4x110 variant spells, Earth Magic, Ice Magic, Fire Magic, Wind Magic, Divination Magic, Dream Magic, Advanced Arcana 1 & 2, and assorted spells around all kinds of books; That's over 3,000 new spells. I don't need any more. I already have spells coming out each month. I'm up to my eyeballs in spells. Disregarding that there's all kinds of other magic that I have that might throw any interest in all that down the toilet. I have zero interest in spells now. Okay, maybe psychic exclusive spells since they're new with no third party references to where the spells go for psychic classes. And any new spells compounds the problem of new spell lists.
Nothing baiting about it.
I would think as professionals they would welcome criticism...
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There's a difference between criticism, critique, and "feedback" that consists of "don't quit your day job" (or worse). The latter is not helpful or informative for anybody, third- or first-party.
If you have a problem with our moderation decisions, please email community@paizo.com, but please keep this thread topical and about third-party products. There are plenty of other threads that you can express your concerns about Paizo's products on.
In terms of what I like - flavor options. I like campaign settings, adventures and other such things.
In terms of what I use them for, predominantly reading material (this is true of Pathfinder or Wizards of the Coast books too).
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I like 3PP because they don't have to follow the same unusual design paradigms as Paizo, such as requiring magic to have a good will save progression.
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I would think as professionals they would welcome criticism...
We do. We love and welcome criticism; the common joke is "I NEED FEEDBACK TO LIIIIIVE." But "this is crap" only tells us that we've managed to not appeal to you, the specific potential customer. "This is crap, because..." is infinitely more helpful, because it gives us context on what has happened from your point of view. Even better is, "My games tend to be like [description]. We used [product] and encountered [problems]." Note the trend of increasing specificity? Even if the developer disagrees with the feedback in question, the specifics help give us an idea of what's going on and why. They may even reveal more problems that you didn't notice but are implied by the difficulties that did occur.
I read the deleted post before it got blasted, and while I won't dredge it back up I'll say that if your intent was to offer critique, it could use more specifics. Context might not be everything but it's certainly the lion's share of the equation. Can't fix a problem if we don't know what it is, and as authors we can be too close to recognize it on our own sometimes.
Savvy? Savvy. Look forward to workin' with ya.
I read the deleted post before it got blasted, and while I won't dredge it back up I'll say that if your intent was to offer critique, it could use more specifics. Context might not be everything but it's certainly the lion's share of the equation. Can't fix a problem if we don't know what it is, and as authors we can be too close to recognize it on our own sometimes.
Savvy? Savvy. Look forward to workin' with ya.
I'm uncertain if you read MY comment as two were removed. I made a joking jab that I believe 3PP to be, on average, unbalanced and ill suited for most games and may have suggested they be put to better use with wobbly furniture. I don't know if there were harsher remarks after this as I was at the time the 2nd and only reply. Both an attempt at light humor and in direct relevance to the topic of "WHAT IS IT YOU USE 3PP PRODUCTS FOR?"
My criticism is that I don't use them at all due to extreme shifts in game balance. From feats granting effects of very expensive magic items to those that turn you into an army. I don't have the best opinion of them.
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I use them to give me more options. Even a lot of traditional fantasy builds, such as the dashing and graceful swordsman over the brutish two handed chopper have either more or better support within third party stuff. Less traditional fantasy is also well represented. I know classes that let me wear a suit of armour driven by arcane energies or allows you to build robot minions...and assemble them into giant mecha or make undead cyborgs with prestige classes.
While I almost always ask to read what a class can do,and make players explain them so we agree on how they work, I almost always allow third party stuff.
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I read the deleted post before it got blasted, and while I won't dredge it back up I'll say that if your intent was to offer critique, it could use more specifics. Context might not be everything but it's certainly the lion's share of the equation. Can't fix a problem if we don't know what it is, and as authors we can be too close to recognize it on our own sometimes.
Savvy? Savvy. Look forward to workin' with ya.
I'm uncertain if you read MY comment as two were removed. I made a joking jab that I believe 3PP to be, on average, unbalanced and ill suited for most games and may have suggested they be put to better use with wobbly furniture. I don't know if there were harsher remarks after this as I was at the time the 2nd and only reply. Both an attempt at light humor and in direct relevance to the topic of "WHAT IS IT YOU USE 3PP PRODUCTS FOR?"
My criticism is that I don't use them at all due to extreme shifts in game balance. From feats granting effects of very expensive magic items to those that turn you into an army. I don't have the best opinion of them.
Yeah, a lot of the times milage may vary.
Sometimes the 3PP decides they wanna make a product completely off the wall. Other times you get products that wouldn't be an unusual release from Paizo themselves.
If what you want is stuff that feels similar to Paizo to whet your teeth on I wouldn't mind pointing some products out to you.
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Hey guys and gals! I was just wonder what it is you like in a 3PP product. Do you like adventures, new feats, NPC's? What draws your eyes most?
Being totally used to regular fantasy (humans, orcs, fighters, mages) after decades, I tend to value unusual (weird) classes when playing and GMing - I always try to convert at least one npc, be it villain or ally, to a compatible class. Right now I'm starting to get interested in weird races also.
Adventures: a good mix of interesting combat with NPC interaction (it's the kind of information I can't really get without a in-depth review though). I also tend to buy 3pp modules due to them being way cheaper than official ones and still having high quality (I guess they save up on art, mostly). When I buy Paizo adventures it's usually scenarios, but since I don't use the society bits it fells kind of a waste. But good maps are definitely a must, before I decide on buying something.
On the off-topic part of the discussion, it's been a while since there was trolling here... it kinda spices up the place, doesn't it? Ah, the good ol' days of the internet.
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I'd be very interested to see what some of the things you approve of are Insain. I've seen a few people mention some specific publishers they enjoy, anyone else have recommendations in that area?
I actually approve of a large number of things over a variety of power levels. What sort of games do you play in/run? Do you want something wacky? Do you want something that feels like Paizo? Do you want something to make Magic more fun and less tedious? Something to make martial characters have more interesting combat and out of combat roles?
I'm not gonna throw out recommendations willy nilly without knowing what you're going for. I wouldn't suggest something crazy like Gonzo to someone who's tying to make LoTR the campaign. I wouldn't suggest something like Path of War to someone who primarily plays low character level games. I wouldn't suggest something like the Genius Guide series to someone who's looking for something far away from Paizo style mechanics.
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I go for stuff that will enhance the current campaign (specifically Kingmaker ATM) and it does irk me when promised product does get pushed back for more spells and monsters (how long 'til Mythic Muppets ;-) ?).
Spells and Monsters? No, no, no! There are so many of these, just by Paizo and I don't have all their books for those. One caveat (if I may single one out) is the Codex Draconis line. It's a shame they didn't get round to the metallics. Then again I think I have all I need.
If a player want's to take a character in a particular direction and a product covers that then I will take the plunge on that too. Exalted Domains and SGG's witches supplements have proven useful.
A different way of doing a core mechanic, if it appeals draws me in too. More specifically Making Craft Work and Ars Metamagica are staple rules in my campaign. I'm looking forward to someone working on a new approach to flight.
To single out publishers I guess Rogue/Super Genius and Legendary tend to do the sort of thing that appeals (when they get round to doing them ;-)).
Cheers
Mark
I use 3rd Party for expanding my settings through classes and subsystems. I do prefer things with a touch of flavour to get me inspired, but with mechanics flavour-agnostic enough that I can reflavour it at a whim.
I use mostly classes and Feats, and mostly to fill a select niche that Paizo classes don't quite fill. I'm willing to try things from most publishers at least once, though that once had better be good because even trying a new book once is a risk, and twice from a 3PP who's already wasted your money or otherwise disproven their worth is a no-go.
When people mention Rogue Genius Games is good I become slightly tempted to try one of their books, but then I look at the Godling classes, shudder a bit, and the insanity passes.
I like having options.
Depending on what sort of a campaign I am running I tend to use different optional rules. I go through what I have access to and pick out the ones that are going to help me capture the feel I am trying to create for my campaign.
Sometimes that means including some 3PP classes, or spells or feats or optional rules.
For example; I want to do a campaign based on mythical Greece I'm going to include the Godling Class from Rogue Genius. I might also expand on the list of available Oracle Curses by adding ones from various other 3PP and maybe I want Divine Magic to be a little less rigid so I grab the Miracles and Wonders system from Adamant Press.
Options are always good, you just have to use them responsibly
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Adventures.
I have found that the Paizo APs are too "PG" for my (and my players) liking. We have found that the 3pp content often caters to a more "grown up" audience.
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Like others, I use it for new options. Spheres of Power gave me the shapshifter that was more fluid than the Druid that I wanted. Dreamscarred Press updated the shaper Psion that I loved in a 3.5 pbp campaign. Fat Goblin Games gave me a fire mage that doesn't have to fear resistance/immunity. Hell, Spheres of Power made my punch magus build way better than it was going to be.
I also like that some third party companies are more willing/able to make products that recreate or re imagine certain 3.5 class. I know there are certain classes that Paizo doesn't have access to, so I can't blame them there. But I know that there have been a few reworks of the Warlock (Invoker, Ethermancer), and personally, there are several other classes I would love to see other 3pp companies make, or see if they've already been remade, like the Dragonfire Adept, Beguiler, and a few others.
Yeah, there are a few 3rd party classes and or feats that I'd be cautious about playing or allowing to be used, but for the most part, I'd say a lot of 3pp material I've seen has been pretty well done. I know that, when I have time, I want to go through the material I have an finally write out reviews for them on the store site.
If you're interested in the beguiler, you might want to check this out; a lot of people have said good things about it.Like others, I use it for new options. Spheres of Power gave me the shapshifter that was more fluid than the Druid that I wanted. Dreamscarred Press updated the shaper Psion that I loved in a 3.5 pbp campaign. Fat Goblin Games gave me a fire mage that doesn't have to fear resistance/immunity. Hell, Spheres of Power made my punch magus build way better than it was going to be.
I also like that some third party companies are more willing/able to make products that recreate or re imagine certain 3.5 class. I know there are certain classes that Paizo doesn't have access to, so I can't blame them there. But I know that there have been a few reworks of the Warlock (Invoker, Ethermancer), and personally, there are several other classes I would love to see other 3pp companies make, or see if they've already been remade, like the Dragonfire Adept, Beguiler, and a few others.
Yeah, there are a few 3rd party classes and or feats that I'd be cautious about playing or allowing to be used, but for the most part, I'd say a lot of 3pp material I've seen has been pretty well done. I know that, when I have time, I want to go through the material I have an finally write out reviews for them on the store site.
I have seen the thread, and will likely sit down some time this weekend to look it over, thanks!
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When I am a player, I am mostly interested in classes, both new ones and expansions to existing ones (preferred 3PP there Rogue Genius and Kobold Press), and some races if I like their gist.
When I GM, I am interested in adventures that I can add to the AP/Campaign (preferred 3PP there Legendary Games and Rite Publishing) and in monsters that fit it, or even better in templates that add unexpected twists to well-known monsters (preferred 3PP there : Legendary Games for the Mythic and Rogue Genius for the Gruesome and the Class Templates).
My criticism is that I don't use them at all due to extreme shifts in game balance. From feats granting effects of very expensive magic items to those that turn you into an army. I don't have the best opinion of them.
Thanks for linking one of my products. Every little bit helps. :)
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So, I actually used to loathe 3pp materials, back in the days of D&D 3.X. I think Wizards did a really terrible job of promoting 3pp materials outside of licensing the Dungeon and Dragon magazines to a 3pp, and there weren't a lot of viable tools for getting the material sinceost reviews were tucked into weird corners of the internet or completely nonexistent.
I carried that attitude with me into Pathfinder, right up until I was talking to my friend about some homebrew materials I was working on for an aquatic themed campaign and he pointed me to Alluria Press' "Cerulean Seas". The reviews on the product (easily located on Paizo's own site) were so good that I was willing to give it a try, and it absolutely blew me away. Since then I've made a point both of reviewing the 3pp materials I purchase, and of actively supporting the good ones with my money. On my shelf right now I have about 25 print copies of my favorite 3pp books, including Dreamscarred Press' "Ultimate Psionics", Alluria's "Cerulean Seas", Northwinter Press' "Mystical: Kingdom of Monsters", Drop Dead Studios' "Spheres of Power", Kobold Press' "Southlands" campaign setting, and Kyoudai Games' "Thunderscape: The World of Aden". The library of .pdfs I have is too large for me to bother counting.
The big things I like out of 3pp materials are books that provide lots of player and GM options which make it easy for me to run campaigns in environments that aren't terribly well supported in core (such as "Cerulean Seas" for aquatic adventures or "Companions of the Firmament" for aerial ones) and materials that give me options for new classes that allow me to create characters I can't execute as well or at all in core or which change the way that something like magic is presented ("Akashic Mysteries" which I wrote, "Liber Influxus Communis", "Mystical: Kingdom of Monsters", "Spheres of Power").
There's kind of an order of precedence for how I allow 3pp materials at my table-
Dreamscarred Press, Alluria, Amora Games, Drop Dead Studios, Kobold Press, Rite Publishing, Rogue Genius Games, Legendary Games, and probably one or two others I'm forgetting get an "innocent until proven guilty" pass as they've proven themselves to be consistently at least as well balanced as Paizo's own materials. Little Red Goblin Games is typically allowed but usually requires me to screen it real quick become some of their materials (like the Battle Chef, which I actually love) are just a bit too goofy or gimmicky for the games I want to run. Other 3pp who haven't established the same credibility require review and approval from me before I allow them in the game, but I do try to leave the door open. I don't think there has been a publisher yet whose materials a player has wanted to use that I have had to flat out say "No, sorry, those materials / that designer just aren't something I'm willing to allow in the game", but there is one publisher I've had two bad experiences with, one an adventure that was straight up missing huge swaths of important information, and another of their products where I felt the character options presented were poorly balanced and executed, but they weren't one of the companies and I mentioned above and people in the 3pp community who are familiar with them speak highly of them, so maybe I just had the misfortune of grabbing their two worst products.
I want new classes that fill interesting concepts, new ways to use old classes, and new systems to try out.
Dreamscarred's Path of War hits most of those spots, being as it has new classes, some options for existing ones, and a new to Pathfinder system that is a refined version of what made ToB interesting.
Likewise Genius Games Talented class line is excellent for new ways to use old classes, and I've found a use for the Godling and Overpowered feat line both to cover divine concepts in a more satisfying way.
TPK Games Gladiator class has ideas that I have found fun and useful in a game, although I credit it moreso with leading me to the Talented line which it draws heavily from.
I'm not interested in: settings, modules, spells, random object generation charts, races, or magic item lists. These are all things that I prefer to make myself for the games I run, or things that I don't need more of.
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I use Frog God Games adventures to kill as many PCs as I possibly can.
I use Frog God Games adventures to kill as many PCs as I possibly can.
Back in 3.x we used to use AEG adventures to do the same *whistles and looks around innocently*
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Inspiration, mostly.
But also fleshing out of stuff that Paizo has not gotten around to yet.
3rd party can offer a more detailed description of an area, such as using Nyambe for ideas for the Mwangi Expanse, or Mindshadows / Naranjan for Vudra, or Hamunaptra for Osirion, or the Complete Book of Vikings (2nd edition AD&D, not exactly '3rd party') to get a 'feel' for the Lands of the Linnorm Kings.
It could be years, or never, before Paizo gets around to fleshing out some of these areas to that degree, and while their versions will undoubtedly be very different, the best ideas from those 3rd party products and temporarily fill in any gaps.
While Paizo can spare a few paragraphs to describe a 'Winter Witch' PrC or Archetype, SGG/RGG can put out a decent sized PDF with multiple ice and cold-themed caster archetypes (and not just witches), and thirty or so ice/cold spells, as well as a new monster template or two, and have it all together in one place, if a GM wants to run a game in Irrisen and go further than just the Winter Witch PrC/Archetype.
Lejendary Games has also run with this notion, of sort of 'plugging in the holes' or further developing niches that the AP of the season might not have room to go into. Whenever I pick up something and think, 'Gosh, I love this, but I wish they went more into X' (where X might be the Azlanti/ioun stone connection or the whacky druids of Zon-Kuthon) I find out soon enough that someone else already has gone more into X (in this case, Kobold Games, both in Sunken Empires and in Deep Magic, or Lejendary Games in Dark Druids).
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Hey, sorry I couldn't respond sooner but I had an "Insain" weekend. I mostly play in AP's right now, low to mid level stuff as most groups I'm in don't survive to high levels. Tbh though I'm really just interested in what my fellow PF players enjoy that isn't actually a Paizo product. I love all sorts of interesting settings, classes, archetypes anything that gets my creativity stirred up. So honestly, hit me with some of your favorite finds.I'd be very interested to see what some of the things you approve of are Insain. I've seen a few people mention some specific publishers they enjoy, anyone else have recommendations in that area?I actually approve of a large number of things over a variety of power levels. What sort of games do you play in/run? Do you want something wacky? Do you want something that feels like Paizo? Do you want something to make Magic more fun and less tedious? Something to make martial characters have more interesting combat and out of combat roles?
I'm not gonna throw out recommendations willy nilly without knowing what you're going for. I wouldn't suggest something crazy like Gonzo to someone who's tying to make LoTR the campaign. I wouldn't suggest something like Path of War to someone who primarily plays low character level games. I wouldn't suggest something like the Genius Guide series to someone who's looking for something far away from Paizo style mechanics.
So biggest suggestions are
1. Ultimate Psionics. For unexpected reasons! In terms of balance and options Ultimate Psionics is comparable to CRB+APG. The Psionics system also makes way more sense to new players. A new player is far more likely to succeed as a Psion than as a Wizard since it just clicks better with the generation that grew up with mana.Akashic Mysteries: Pretty tight rules, approximately APG power level, and contains one of the very few martials that I feel has enough utility in and out of combat to thrive at high levels. Characters basically get to buy class magic items at the beginning of every day and allocate points to them to determine their effectiveness. You're about to go on a voyage? Better invest in a swim speed! This works well by giving you day to day versatility at the sacrifice of raw power since budgeting is an important factor.
Liber Influxus Communis: Contains like 14 classes, some cool haunts, and refreshing adventuring hazards. Almost every class in the book is worth playing and they each got appropriate feat support. What I like most is that almost all the classes manage to feel refreshing and original in play. Also contains the class I use most often when building custom NPCs as a DM, the Battle Lord.
Dragon Tiger Ox: Invaluable resource for someone who wants to Kung-Fu the heck out of Pathfinder!
Freeport: The Hardcover was worth every single penny. It's massive! The Island is so well detailed that you could run an entire campaign without leaving a district! Ideal for character levels 1-6 since the Island is pretty low power. Most people of power within Freeport are around level 8-12, so if the goal of a player is to become someone of power/overthrow another boss then it's very attainable.
Lords of the Night: Great sourcebook for making vampires a viable player party option and adapting your world to vampires. It's also pretty great for making a vampire organization easier for a DM to run as antagonists. Combine with Freeport for lotsa fun.
These are some of my favorites right now.
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Ultimate Psionics, Path of War, and Dragon Tiger Ox get my seal of approval as well.
Try the Bad Dubbing rules!