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ehhhhhh
Baja1000 even played any MMO ?
if no , then your not knowing what is Threat priorityDragon is Smart and dragon know that something that cant fly cant kill him
Dragon know that for example Wizard can kill him cuz of IMB'a spell
why he should waste this precious time to fight 2 weaklings on the ground?
drop wizard and cleric example he don't need to search for them cuz he don't care he's afterall soooooooo arogant and soooooooo mighty
why he waste his precious time to smash few ants that can't do anything to him in first place ?
he got a lot of spell , why dont start fight with something more usefull then Antymagic field in first place ?
when you go to work... and suddenly you saw few ants on street
you
A) go to work ignore ants ?
or
B) smash ants ? work can wait !and the most sad part about your plan ? your Falling boulder plan would not work if Dragon never used Antymagic Field in 1th place
Pathfinder is not an MMO. A dragon will go after the most logical threat, not anything to do with MMOs.
The Dragon sees a wizard. He sees it go invisible. He also sees two other casters go invisible. He has no idea what they're going to do, but spells are dangerous. If he tries to track them down, they'll be in 3 different places - which one is the dragon going to track down? He can't easily tell where they are, so he'll spend a bit of time tracking them down. Even then, he might track down the 'wrong' one and get hit by powerful spells from behind.
Why WOULDN'T the dragon in this situation turn on its anti-magic field. It is no protected from all the main damaging spells being cast at it, and doesn't have to worry about damage from the casters, and can instead focus on the two in front of it - if it ignored them, a smited arrow from a Paladin can do an awful lot of damage. He also knows that there is a paladin in front of him - they're magical, who knows what it could be doing if he left it alone. Much safer to turn on the antimagic field, neutralising the threats from the invisible casters, kill the people in front of you, then track down the casters when there is no-one else to hit you. That's the smart plan, if you didn't know the PC's plan.

PłentaX |
Arcaian .... And who is most Logical Threat ? Fighter that cant fly or Wizard with possibilities of alter reality ?
(MMO was just analogy )
and i'm agree that dragon would go search for wizards and dont care at all about 2 randoms on ground thats what i was in mind by Threat Priority
the one who disagree is Baja1000
look what he wrote and what i wrote
ok its logical to cast Antymagic Field for this Dragon that saw 2 wizard but its absolutly not logical for him to just sit near fighter and paladin AND thats the WHOLE POINT here
Dragon was going to fly after a person he couldn't see? I know i said to find a flaw but you seem to be kind of reaching...
drop wizard and cleric example he don't need to search for them cuz he don't care he's afterall soooooooo arogant and soooooooo mighty
that was clearly sarcasm

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Arcaian .... And who is most Logical Threat ? Fighter that cant fly or Wizard with possibilities of alter reality ?
(MMO was just analogy )
and i'm agree that dragon would go search for wizards and dont care at all about 2 randoms on ground thats what i was in mind by Threat Prioritythe one who disagree is Baja1000
look what he wrote and what i wrote
ok its logical to cast Antymagic Field for this Dragon that saw 2 wizard but its absolutly not logical for him to just sit near fighter and paladin AND thats the WHOLE POINT here
Baja1000 wrote:Dragon was going to fly after a person he couldn't see? I know i said to find a flaw but you seem to be kind of reaching...Me wrote:that was clearly sarcasm
drop wizard and cleric example he don't need to search for them cuz he don't care he's afterall soooooooo arogant and soooooooo mighty
The fighter may be able to fly - cant presume what potions, or whatever else he has on him. On top of that, there's a Paladin there, who can clearly smite you, as well as his other magic, you probably don't want to let him get it off. The wizard does have possibilities to alter reality - as does the Paladin - but the Wizard's magical powers are offset by the anti-magic field, and you have no idea where the Wizard is, or the other 2 people who went invisible. So you have several targets:
1: Paladin and fighter in front of you, one of which can do heaps of damage to you with smite and spells if you leave, and are currently sitting ducks.
2: The cleric you saw drink a potion. No idea where he may be, or what he may be capable of - remember it could just have easily been the cleric drinking a potion of fly and setting off the trap.
3: One of the two arcane magic users who cast invisible. You have no idea where they are. You have an anti-magic field that negates any attacks they're trying to do on you.
If you go after 2 or 3, you take extra damage from 1. If you attack 1, 2 and 3 shouldn't be able to damage you anyway. Why would you go after 2 or 3, especially as several rounds of searching would probably be needed.
Run away is a legitimate option too, depending on the dragon I guess.

Castilonium |

So it sounds like the most reliable tactic is to have a gunslinger in the party who gets buffed up and doesn't get beelined by the dragon. Sadly, that's not always an option, either because guns aren't allowed in the game, or nobody decided to play a gunslinger.
Snowball would have to be cast outside of the antimagic field, but it otherwise sounds good. Although it would take 18 5d6 snowballs on average to kill an ancient copper dragon.
I did some math, and it would take 56 total full attacks from lantern archons on average to kill an ancient copper dragon. Sadly, I don't think relying on them would be very viable, though their attacks do work, which is nice.
A bag full of stirges and a bottle of air sounds interesting. Unavoidable con damage is handy. I might use that tactic for funsies, thank you for mentioning it.

Avoron |
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In lieu of specific Pathfinder rules for it, I like to go by the 3.5 classification unless stated otherwise for a particular ability:
Extraordinary: DR/piercing, DR/bludgeoning, DR/slashing, DR/adamantine, DR/-
Supernatural: DR/silver, DR/cold iron, DR/magic, DR/chaotic, DR/evil, DR/good, DR/lawful
Sure, it's just a houserule in Pathfinder, but I've yet to hear of a better system for categorization.

Scott Wilhelm |
It seems to me that the ability to operate within an antimagic environment allows for a very powerful tactical trick. It might behoove the party to develop this capability and whip out the AM field themselves.
Such a party should have some weapons made of exotic stuff like adamantine and Cold Iron.
Gunslingers and Monks become much more powerful in an antimagic environment.
Golems operate normally in an antimagic shell.
This would be a good time to wheel up Seige Engines and Catapults. So when the party is getting to around level 12, maybe it's time for the party fighters and rogues to get good at building and commanding those. Maybe if the party invests in a Lyre of Building, they can put together the engines they need right on the spot.
It seems there are a lot of monsters out there that would be really hobbled by the party's Antimagic Shells, and the party that was prepared to operate within one could whip one out and supress them brutally.

Avoron |
Most monsters will be hurt significantly less by an Antimagic Field than the average PC.
Even so, it would be a fun tactic to try with a party that starts at mid-to-high levels.
One fun tactic would be to have a party full of Ifrits with Firesight carrying around an eversmoking bottle in a familiar satchel. (Total cover protects it from the antimagic field and the smoke itself is non-magical.)
Get yourself to command a Wraith.
A single mere Wraith.
Then let the Cleric create some popcorn, summon your Mage's Comfy Couch, sit down and enjoy.
Wraith Bro is the best Bro. Can do things you wouldn't believe.
???
A wraith would be utterly unable to harm the dragon in any material way.
Even without an antimagic field, the dragon would save against the Con drain on a 2. With the field, all the wraith can do is hope that the dragon sits there for the 89 rounds it would take to kill it with 1d6 damage per round.
The dragon, meanwhile, can't exactly kill the wraith, but it can completely ignore it while traveling more than three times as fast to go kill any party members in the vicinity.
For that matter, the wraith is unable to do anything at all, because Sunlight Powerlessness is extraordinary and still functioning just fine.

Astral Wanderer |

A wraith would be utterly unable to harm the dragon in any material way.
In fact negative energy is immaterial, though it produces material harm. Also, the Wraith targets touch AC and can crit with its attack.
Even without an antimagic field, the dragon would save against the Con drain on a 2. With the field, all the wraith can do is hope that the dragon sits there for the 89 rounds it would take to kill it with 1d6 damage per round.
The dragon, meanwhile, can't exactly kill the wraith, but it can completely ignore it while traveling more than three times as fast to go kill any party members in the vicinity.
For that matter, the wraith is unable to do anything at all, because Sunlight Powerlessness is extraordinary and still functioning just fine.
I don't think I said to fight on a sunny beach.
Get your Dragon in an enclosed space (underground and/or at night) and cut its escape routes, using cave-ins and/or Walls of Force as appropriate (pro tip: while Antimagic Field is on, be on the opposite side of the Wall of Force). Having it in an enclosed space is also basic logic, when fighting Dragons, unless you like fire rains, death from above, and TPKs.The Wraith can go in and out (though it has no need to come out), while the Dragon is trapped inside until it removes its Antimagic Field; yes, it could physically break the Wall of Force, but it could also not, given its hardness and hp, and you can also cast another from your stock of scrolls, if need be.
Now, as long as the Dragon stays AM'd, it is only a matter of watching it cry till it drops dead. It has absolutely no way to harm the Wraith or escape, thanks to its own AMF. When the AMF ends (or, more probably, the Dragon ends it before it becomes its ruin), the Dragon will regain abilities that may harm the Wraith (Breath, at the very least); that's when you tag your bro and finish its work. The Dragon will also regain the ability to teleport/shift away, so you have to be ready for that, either with Dimensional Anchor, a readied Dispel Magic, or whatever.
As an added bonus, if you can keep your Wraith safe on the field after the AMF is out of the way, its attacks also add Constitution Drain; yes, only on a save that rolls a natural 1, but you know, everyone can roll it anytime, and once Con starts to go down, both the subsequent saves and the Dragon's hp will see a nearly exponential decrease. Of course, if you're fighting along the Wraith, you won't have many rounds to appreciate the benefits, even if the Dragon fails all the saves, since you'll likely kill it in a few rounds, but you know, depending on its HD, the Dragon may "permanently" lose up to 60+ hp with a lucky strike from Constitution Drain, and I wouldn't exactly spit on such a possibility.

Snowblind |

Incorporeal undead cease to exist in an antimagic field
Where is this coming from? The only reference I can find that says this refers to 3.5, not Pathfinder. Everything I have seen on the Paizo PRD makes no mention of this (Undead are explicitly allowed, and no exception is made for Incorporeal(Ex)).

Saldiven |
Anti-magic field kept it from Breath weapon and it had only two targets to see without any abilities to see with true seeing. Not much else the dragon could do but fight the two melee's in his face since range would have been 1d4 turns of getting pelted by arrows while the other 3 hid from sight. Other than run, but why would a red dragon ever run from something he doesnt perceive as a threat? Rules say unless it falls from higher than 500 ft, things falling cant cast spells and hit the ground same round. Dragon didn't have any other choices but to get hit.
Dragon was dumb.
Fly-by attack coupled with a grapple action, followed by carrying the hapless melee character upwards, gnawing on that character's head each round until sufficiently high up, then dropping said character would be a more appropriate action than landing and fighting like a hatchling.

Saldiven |
Guns are something dragons might actually be afraid of.
Not unless the gun-wielder can fly comparably to the dragon or is using modern firearms. It's a simple matter for a dragon to stay far enough away that the gunslinger has to target regular AC. Outside of that first range increment, firearms are no more deadly to a dragon than an archer would be.

GM Runescarred Dragon |

I think archery might be your best shot here (pun definitely intended). Stand outside the field, and benefit from all your items (although maybe not ). Is DR/Magic a supernatural ability? It feels like it might be, but probably not.
Anyway be a dedicated archer, either ranger, zen archer, or fighter. Just pelt it with arrows 'till it dies. It can't use its breath or cast spells, so the only options it has to deal with you is to land and try to murder you, go away, or make strafing bite runs.
Strafing bites are probably a losing battle - your cleric has nothing better to do than be the healbot while you shoot, so if you're any good, you should be able to deal damage quicker than the dragon can.
Running away definitely counts as victory for your part.
If it lands, have a pouncebarian or lancechargeexplode cavalier with a readied action to charge.
Both deal high enough damage on charge attacks, even without access to magic items, to make the dragon pause.
That's how I'd do it, anyway.

Avoron |
Avoron wrote:A wraith would be utterly unable to harm the dragon in any material way.In fact negative energy is immaterial, though it produces material harm. Also, the Wraith targets touch AC and can crit with its attack.
Avoron wrote:Even without an antimagic field, the dragon would save against the Con drain on a 2. With the field, all the wraith can do is hope that the dragon sits there for the 89 rounds it would take to kill it with 1d6 damage per round.
The dragon, meanwhile, can't exactly kill the wraith, but it can completely ignore it while traveling more than three times as fast to go kill any party members in the vicinity.
For that matter, the wraith is unable to do anything at all, because Sunlight Powerlessness is extraordinary and still functioning just fine.
I don't think I said to fight on a sunny beach.
Get your Dragon in an enclosed space (underground and/or at night) and cut its escape routes, using cave-ins and/or Walls of Force as appropriate (pro tip: while Antimagic Field is on, be on the opposite side of the Wall of Force). Having it in an enclosed space is also basic logic, when fighting Dragons, unless you like fire rains, death from above, and TPKs.
The Wraith can go in and out (though it has no need to come out), while the Dragon is trapped inside until it removes its Antimagic Field; yes, it could physically break the Wall of Force, but it could also not, given its hardness and hp, and you can also cast another from your stock of scrolls, if need be.
Now, as long as the Dragon stays AM'd, it is only a matter of watching it cry till it drops dead. It has absolutely no way to harm the Wraith or escape, thanks to its own AMF. When the AMF ends (or, more probably, the Dragon ends it before it becomes its ruin), the Dragon will regain abilities that may harm the Wraith (Breath, at the very least); that's when you tag your bro and finish its work. The Dragon will also regain the ability to teleport/shift away, so you have to be ready for...
I was including the touch AC and crits in my time calculations.
You'll have an extremely difficult time getting any dragon worth it's genius-level intelligence score to willingly enter an enclosed space, particularly if that space is underground and is not something the dragon can easily burst out of.
Walls of Force are nice, but they only block a single direction of movement. And I'm not sure how a cave-in would help; the dragon can completely clear away at least 36 tons of rock and debris every minute.
If you can get a dragon in an enclosed space and keep them there for nine minutes, kudos to you. Then your wraith pal can deal 1d6 damage per round to its hearts content. More wraiths will speed up the process.
But I'm having a hard time seeing that happening.
I think archery might be your best shot here (pun definitely intended). Stand outside the field, and benefit from all your items (although maybe not ). Is DR/Magic a supernatural ability? It feels like it might be, but probably not.
Anyway be a dedicated archer, either ranger, zen archer, or fighter. Just pelt it with arrows 'till it dies. It can't use its breath or cast spells, so the only options it has to deal with you is to land and try to murder you, go away, or make strafing bite runs.
Strafing bites are probably a losing battle - your cleric has nothing better to do than be the healbot while you shoot, so if you're any good, you should be able to deal damage quicker than the dragon can.
Running away definitely counts as victory for your part.
If it lands, have a pouncebarian or lancechargeexplode cavalier with a readied action to charge.
Both deal high enough damage on charge attacks, even without access to magic items, to make the dragon pause.
That's how I'd do it, anyway.
That's a pretty good strategy overall, but you might run into a couple of issues.
First, if you snipe from too far away you'll have a hard time making your attack rolls.
Second, there's a very high chance that a dragon will win a straight-up melee engagement - it can fly 15 feet above your party and attack you, and there will be little you can do to retaliate. It makes the fly checks to hover on a 1.
Also, you need the Rhino Charge feat to ready a charge.

baja1000 |

baja1000 wrote:Anti-magic field kept it from Breath weapon and it had only two targets to see without any abilities to see with true seeing. Not much else the dragon could do but fight the two melee's in his face since range would have been 1d4 turns of getting pelted by arrows while the other 3 hid from sight. Other than run, but why would a red dragon ever run from something he doesnt perceive as a threat? Rules say unless it falls from higher than 500 ft, things falling cant cast spells and hit the ground same round. Dragon didn't have any other choices but to get hit.Dragon was dumb.
Fly-by attack coupled with a grapple action, followed by carrying the hapless melee character upwards, gnawing on that character's head each round until sufficiently high up, then dropping said character would be a more appropriate action than landing and fighting like a hatchling.
Believe me, was expecting that. But turns out Ancient Red Dragon don't come with Fly-By attack and this dragon was just from the book. Total Defence was meant to help with that somewhat since Dodge goes into CMD but it never came into effect.

Rerednaw |
A few things that ignore AMF or aren't totally stopped by it.
The aforementioned Snowball.
Tanglefoot bags.
Archer/Gunslinger.
Other various alchemical items.
Spirited charge builds.
Any number of summoned creatures using Ex abilities, weapons (enlarge them if the wielder is summoned and/or use reach weapons).
A raging barbarian with a big stick.
Also, a high level party facing a foe they are not prepared usually has some "bug out" option. Better to withdraw and regroup. Or were they surprised and all dimension-locked in a no fly zone before they got to act?

PłentaX |
Believe me, was expecting that. But turns out Ancient Red Dragon don't come with Fly-By attack and this dragon was just from the book. Total Defence was meant to help with that somewhat since Dodge goes into CMD but it never came into effect.
ohh Ancient Red Dragon ? this Ancient Red Dragon with see invisibility in his stated Sorcerer spell knowns ? and spell truning that is even better spell then AMF
then this dragon wont have problem to locate your invisible Wizard/Cleric party members
This ancient Red Dragon that have Crush (Ex) ? and can just land on your face that forces you to Reflex Save or be pinned, automatically taking bludgeoning damage during the next round unless the dragon moves off them. ?