At 13th level, I hope it's more than a +1 Cloak of Resistance - which would, of course, take longer.
Still a great idea.
Or just spend a couple weeks in town with downtime. Maybe the fighter can retrain a feat or two and buy a bit of defensive gear while he waits for an NPC to craft his cloak.
At 13th level, I hope it's more than a +1 Cloak of Resistance - which would, of course, take longer.
Still a great idea.
Or just spend a couple weeks in town with downtime. Maybe the fighter can retrain a feat or two and buy a bit of defensive gear while he waits for an NPC to craft his cloak.
Nope, he has a +1 cloak. Thus far in the game saves haven't really been much of an issue, so I'm not really worried about it. We finally do seem to have some downtime, but the fighter's got all his feats planned out and I really doubt he'd be willing to change them.
Nope, he has a +1 cloak. Thus far in the game saves haven't really been much of an issue, so I'm not really worried about it. We finally do seem to have some downtime, but the fighter's got all his feats planned out and I really doubt he'd be willing to change them.At 13th level, I hope it's more than a +1 Cloak of Resistance - which would, of course, take longer.
Still a great idea.
Or just spend a couple weeks in town with downtime. Maybe the fighter can retrain a feat or two and buy a bit of defensive gear while he waits for an NPC to craft his cloak.
Then do as some others have suggested - let him die.
Or rather, simply point out to him (the player) that his game decisions are affecting your game decisions. He gets to play the way he wants but the cost is that you CANNOT play the way you want. You're planning to change this, to become more of a battle cleric and less of a healbot, and he must either choose to adjust his play style to accommodate that, or face the probability that his character will die.
Suggest the arcane casters pick up some healing spells as well. Greater Infernal Healing comes to mind. That's fast heal 4 for a minute. :D
Wands of the same.
That way, you aren't the ONLY one healing people.
Shield Other is fantastic, but he needs to focus on improving his AC.
If the GM is generous, he might allow for the retraining rules to increase HP during downtime...
Feel free to talk to them about how things are going. Having a plan is all fine, but if things don't go to plan ('Um, why is all that red stuff falling out of the new hole in my gut?'), you have to be able to modify. (Hence having to put Iron Will on my barbarian at level 3. Grumble.)
And yeah, enemies normally try to flank you. Had some fun early in Rise when my poor barbarian was flanked by ... well, an early villain and a goblin. Sneak attack is not fun. (Invulnerable rager, and at level 2 anyway, so no dodging.)
As mentioned, buffs, debuffs, and controls can help things. I even did tell our group's cleric once to whack the enemy with his mace rather than CLW me. (He whiffed, but that's more of our dice having eleven faces with a 1 and nine with a 20.)
I also wonder if your group understands their classes well. Are they new to being a wizard/sorceror/whatever? You mentioned a paladin who tends to underuse smite, and I tend to be leery of consuming rage rounds myself. There's conservative play and then there's trying to take it with you, as it were.
And yeah, wealth by level can be ... an issue. I'll admit surprise that saves haven't taken their toll, and that you're at level 13 with a +1 cloak of resistance handling things.
I shudder to think of what would have happened if those glabrezu had done something other than beat down: mirror image plus confusion against a fighter with what must be truly sucky Will saves could cause the rest of the party to have a really bad day.
Then do as some others have suggested - let him die.
This.
Let him fall at -HP, and heal him later using CLW wands. And make sure everybody in the party buys CLW wands, and each player uses charges from his own CLW wand.Being held responsable for your decisions go a great way to make people to take good decisions. If the cost of not using a shield means you are going to spend 750gp per combat in a CLW wand, then maybe you'll think about that shield.
As a defense focused player myself, I always push the party to agree that reach PC should pay for his own CLW. My characters tend to need little healing, if dome body else wants to play a low AC dualwiekding rogue that tumble into full round range, he should play the consequences of it.
Welp, he almost died tonight due to his own actions. We were in a bad position against a dragon and while we decided to retreat after the wizard got Feebleminded and the paladin got her good bow sundered, he decided he was going to try to go toe-to-toe with the dragon as soon as he could get into melee range. One round of claw-claw-wing-wing-bite-tail and that was that. (Well, he should've died, but used Hero Points to save his life and the GM was being kind as well.) For good measure, he almost got most of the rest of the party killed as well.
Oh, he also decided to spend his money to improve his weapons instead of any defensive items.
Ugh, this party is so disfunctional. My character is seriously considering leaving them.
Welp, he almost died tonight due to his own actions. We were in a bad position against a dragon and while we decided to retreat after the wizard got Feebleminded and the paladin got her good bow sundered, he decided he was going to try to go toe-to-toe with the dragon as soon as he could get into melee range. One round of claw-claw-wing-wing-bite-tail and that was that. (Well, he should've died, but used Hero Points to save his life and the GM was being kind as well.) For good measure, he almost got most of the rest of the party killed as well.
Oh, he also decided to spend his money to improve his weapons instead of any defensive items.
Ugh, this party is so disfunctional. My character is seriously considering leaving them.
Then you should, OR even better, get yourself killed next opportunity you get and make a new character.
Take the healbot out of the equation totally. Make a self sufficient character that can heal itself with wands or the like so the rest of the party "gets" the idea.
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Well if the Sorcerer or wizard have greater Dispel magic they can use it to remove magical defenses/enchantments in a 20 to 40 foot area for an for one hour. (or in the cases of enemy spellcaster's, until new spells are cast on them)
ya'lls group will still have it's magical advantage most likely and can move in and attack while the enemy tries to restore defenses. If the fighter has gained any magical DR, it negates damage and will require less healing from your character.
As for the overall defenses, perhaps investing in protective gear is a good idea, but buying the Cloak of Displacement (even a lesser one) won't help if the arcane casters are throwing AOE's into the melee, So getting him a ring of energy resistance (of the casters favorite blasts element) would be a good idea as well. That or Potions of Resist Energy.
Dragon Sorcerer is a good blaster caster for their element. So should focus on making the blasts better and harder to resist
Wizard Conuration is great and at your levels could summon a small horde or elementals in line of the Dragon Sorcerer's element if ppl who Melee have the rings of energy resistance, not get hurt from said elemental support. Augment Summoning and Extend spell Very useful, even more useful if summoning 1d4+ creatures with said buffs as well.
(I remember my Kobold Sorcerer at this level summoning 1d4+50%+3 with Empowered & Extend Spell Summon Monster spell. Got a small army of Fire Elementals :3 in Mummy's mask Game that is currently on hold. Things did not go well for the enemy with 9 Elementals and the party)
Also if I remember correctly their is a Channel ability that grants your Fellow party members fast healing [nothing in the amazing realm, but every bit helps]
These few things will help battles likely go more with the party
@DM_Blake - I think 6 PCs of 13th level would normally be APL 14 but being behind on WBL might drop them back towards APL 13. A cloak of resistance +1 sounds pretty feeble for a 13th level PC in a class which badly needs saving throw boosts. Anyhow, I'm sure there are entire threads about APL/CR/XP and how to best account for it while running an AP. In this case it sounds like the party in question is having plenty of trouble even with the 2 extra PCs though.
@Xexyz - How was the party planning to get away from the dragon? I ask since with their very fast fly speed dragons can be rather difficult to get away from. Did the rest of the party almost get killed because they went back to rescue the Fighter? If so did you eventually defeat the dragon? Have you asked the Fighter why he spent all his gold on offense when he seems to have a gap on defense? What is the Fighter's AC now?
@gustavo iglesias - Many years ago (back in 3.5) I instituted a "Wand Tax", and many parties I play in still use it with varying rates (around 10% seems good). I think having a "party fund" of some sort to cover healing and condition removal items is a good idea, especially since you never know which PC might need Neutralize Poison, Restoration, etc. In some parties we each maintain our own items such as in the game where the CG Ninja was using up all the Cure wands super fast since he fights recklessly and won't let us use Infernal Healing on him. More recently he's usually invisible and therefore gets hit less often.
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Unless the fighter's DPR is really high - like high enough to one round a glazebru (186HP), then he may be better off using a shield. A fighter that level can easily get to the mid 30s AC with a shield and up to 40AC if he was specced for defense.
This. See if the GM lets him re-spec to go sword & board.
The offense difference between THW fighters and Sword & board drops off a lot starting at level 11. This is because the main difference between the two is the effectiveness of PA (not the only one - but the main one) and PA's usefulness drops off a lot at 11-12 when you pick up your 2nd iterative & you start taking a -4 to hit. (PA doesn't actually scale in effectiveness - its sweet spot is levels 4-10 - past level 8 it starts getting worse)
Starting at level 11 PA is rarely worth using when you full-attack even with a two-handed weapon, and almost never with a one-handed weapon. (And by level 11 every melee character should get a Quick Runner's shirt or five - one per fight is great.)
Plus - if he's allowed to retrain - at that level he might be able to grab Shield Master.
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In RotRL, my cleric had great hit points (Toughness, FC bonuses, good Con), so he cast shield other every day on the main fighter (who was a Ranger, IIRC). Only once in 8 or so levels did that become a problem (lots of AoE damage that fight), and I was forced to end the spell early. Otherwise it just halved the amount of channel healing I had to do, since I could heal both of us with one blast and optimize the utility of channel-healing.
If the fighter was willing to not be a bonehead, some useful tactics on his part, and some teamwork from the rest (controlling enemy positions with wall, pit, fog, grease, web, glitterdust type spells, or shutting them down for a round with sound burst, command, cause fear, hold person, or reducing the amount of attacks hitting him with effects like blur or displacement) could help as well, but it sounds like 90% of your problem is the fighter being dumb.
It sounds like he's playing like an MMO tank, getting right up in the enemy's face and assuming that the group has a dedicated healer who is going to just spam heal spells over and over to keep him alive. This game doesn't support that sort of thinking.
Clerics are supposed to heal.
Thanks for the advice guys but at this point I'm more just venting/complaining because the fighter's really not going to take any of your suggestions. He's going to do what he wants to do, and I've now decided I'm not going to go out of my way to keep him alive. It's clear to me his weaknesses are 100% the actions he takes, and not his gear or his build.
@Devilkiller - The plan was for me to find the wizard (he fled in fear after he got feebleminded) and for the sorcerer to group up with the pally, fighter, and multi; we were going to teleport away. Once I went off to look for the wizard, the other four decided to try to kill the dragon because the fighter didn't want to leave. Unfortunately they declined to inform my character of the change of plans so as soon as I found the wizard we teleported back to Sandpoint, my character thinking the rest of the group was already gone or right behind me. The rest of the party didn't leave until the fighter got knocked out (he lived only because of hero points).
Thanks for the advice guys but at this point I'm more just venting/complaining because the fighter's really not going to take any of your suggestions. He's going to do what he wants to do, and I've now decided I'm not going to go out of my way to keep him alive. It's clear to me his weaknesses are 100% the actions he takes, and not his gear or his build.
He will learn or he will die. Sometimes it has to be like that.
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If he is really -REALLY- Attached to the Cloak of resistance,
Gear ideas that might help the Two-weapon Warrior (built on 140,000 GP for all of it)
2 Weapons of +3 Defending (Built with the idea the weapons themselves where around 20GP each normally before MWK & Enchanted)
+1 Invulnerable Mithril Shirt
Major Ring Of Energy Resistance (Should be aligned with the AOE User, if they're a Fire Dragon blood line, should be fire, etc, etc)
Ring Of Protection +2
Amulet of Natural Armor +2
Belt Of Might +2 (Str/Con) - [Keep him alive longer]
Cloak of resistance +1
2 Potions of True Strike
2 Potions of Blur
2 Potions of Cat's Grace
4 Potions of Cure Light Wounds
2 Potions of Cure Serious Wounds
Leaving them with 260GP for other gear
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He will learn or he will die. Sometimes it has to be like that.Thanks for the advice guys but at this point I'm more just venting/complaining because the fighter's really not going to take any of your suggestions. He's going to do what he wants to do, and I've now decided I'm not going to go out of my way to keep him alive. It's clear to me his weaknesses are 100% the actions he takes, and not his gear or his build.
In the Game of Pathfinder, you Learn or you Die!
@Xexyz - Ok, I asked partially because since the Wizard was Feebleminded that could make Teleporting away more difficult. Did you cast Heal on the Wizard to cure the Feeblemind? If so I think that shows a pretty good use of healing spells by a Cleric.
Welp, he almost died tonight due to his own actions. We were in a bad position against a dragon and while we decided to retreat after the wizard got Feebleminded and the paladin got her good bow sundered, he decided he was going to try to go toe-to-toe with the dragon as soon as he could get into melee range. One round of claw-claw-wing-wing-bite-tail and that was that. (Well, he should've died, but used Hero Points to save his life and the GM was being kind as well.) For good measure, he almost got most of the rest of the party killed as well.
Oh, he also decided to spend his money to improve his weapons instead of any defensive items.
Ugh, this party is so disfunctional. My character is seriously considering leaving them.
My character would pay a were tiger to infect him.
Do you have devil fruit in that campaign?
@Xexyz - Ok, I asked partially because since the Wizard was Feebleminded that could make Teleporting away more difficult. Did you cast Heal on the Wizard to cure the Feeblemind? If so I think that shows a pretty good use of healing spells by a Cleric.
Unfortunately I didn't have heal memorized that day because we weren't supposed to be looking for trouble; I had instead memorized 2 wind walk spells so the party could get to Rimeskull from Riddleport.
I was able to teleport myself and the wizard since I get teleport as a domain spell (travel domain).
It seems like Ninjas take a lot of damage. I suspect it is because they're often obsessed with getting full attacks to score lots of damage and rarely bother using any sort of debuffs on the enemy (demoralize, trip, dirty trick, etc)
@666bender - An animal companion seems like another good way besides summoning to have fun while spending a lot of actions on support. Ironically, Evil Clerics might be more willing to spend actions healing other PCs since they can have an army of undead to make attacks with.
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It seems like Ninjas take a lot of damage. I suspect it is because they're often obsessed with getting full attacks to score lots of damage and rarely bother using any sort of debuffs on the enemy (demoralize, trip, dirty trick, etc)
Especially the silly ones who use Vanishing Trick at the beginning of their turn instead of the end - carrying over to the next turn.
Clerics are supposed to heal.The statement above is an arbitrary opinion. Please support your statement.
I played a cleric at one point who, in total, cast two heals during eight levels of play. Healing is the least important role of a cleric in my opinion as nearly all situations comes down to planning, knowing the enemy, choice of battlefield, and smart choice of buffing. Doing these actions right reduce the need for healing to a point where it is more important to include the cleric (or any otehr healing role) as part of the action and excitement, not just waiting for a random phrase of "healz plz!!1!"
You don't sound like a very good cleric then.
In my opinion of course.
I'd recommend something to give him DR. If he takes 5 less damage per hit, that's damage you don't need to heal
I consider that before the heal spell is available there is almost no point to in combat healing your enemies do far more damage in a round than you can heal in a round. On that basis wasting your action healing is a waste you are better doing something effective to neutralize the enemy healing is something done out of combat often with wands. I have never played a cleric who provides regular in combat healing and never will if one of my fellow players expected me to spend all my time healing him in combat I would laugh tell him no and continue doing something more useful. If he continued to expect in combat healing his character death would remind he he was not getting it.
(Not to say that there are not some circumstances where I would cast spells to heal in combat just that is rare that it is a useful action)
The Divine Intervention feat immediately comes to mind
Clerics are supposed to heal.
We actually haven't had a "dedicated" healer ever since we switched to Pathfinder from 3.5. Everyone is capable of becoming self-sustaining with Wands, Use Magic Device, and even Signature Skill: Heal. That doesn't mean we don't appreciate the occasional Channel Energy/Lay on Hands however.
Whether or not in combat healing is useful is a pretty common debate. While avoiding damage is generally better than healing it I think that having emergency healing available can be very helpful for when the dice take a bad bounce or the monsters get the drop on you.
If somebody wants the Cleric to act like a backpack full of extra hit points that seems more like a cohort. The funny thing would be that if the Fighter took a Cleric cohort the NPC might be more effective overall than the PC even if he or she is 2-3 levels behind.
The Divine Intervention feat immediately comes to mind
Do you mean Divine Interference? (I made that mistake too).
That spell is seriously boss though.
The Divine Intervention feat immediately comes to mindDo you mean Divine Interference? (I made that mistake too).
That spell is seriously boss though.
That's what I was referencing yes. Ditching a 1st level spell to stop a critical hit is incredible.
That's what I was referencing yes. Ditching a 1st level spell to stop a critical hit is incredible.The Divine Intervention feat immediately comes to mindDo you mean Divine Interference? (I made that mistake too).
That spell is seriously boss though.
I've got a bunch of pearls of power 1st level just for that.
I need more people like you in my party.