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Hi all.
I have a character concept, somebody who keeps blinking around the battle field. teleporting behind someone to attack them. then quickly teleporting to the next, Ideally a kind of roguish character as teleporting behind someone to attack them seems pretty sneaky. it only makes sense to me to pair it with a character with a sneak attack class ability.
now to the nitty gritty. To pull of this kind of build I was looking at the Dimensional Dervish feat line. but the only way to get there is to have either dimension door or abundant step. which'll mean you can't even begin to start this build until roughly 10th level.
is there anyway to build this kind of character earlier in the game?
Horizon Walker 3 levels then the rest into Shadowdancer.
He did say Martial in the title of the thread...
Unchained Monk with Flying Kick early and Abundant Step later.
Martial = full BAB class. Every suggestion here outside of mine and a couple from CBDunkerson are not what the OP is asking for.
I know this isn't the third party forum, but Path of War characters can do teleport attacksvas early as level 3. It's the easiest way to get what you are looking for.
I think by "martial" he must have meant a non-spellcaster -- otherwise he would not have mentioned "roguish" and "sneak attack".
Anyway -- gaining the ability to teleport without casting spells seems to be the tough part. If you were playing D&D 4E or 5E, you could take care of this by selecting Eladrin as your race -- but Pathfinder offers nothing comparable.
The best option I can see would be to go with VMC Wizard, which gives you 1st level arcane school powers at 7th level. For your school, select the Teleportation sub-school of the Conjuration school. The Shift power is exactly what you want even if Summoner's Charm is wasted. I would seriously consider Time Stutter for the arcane discovery at 15th level. Dimensional Steps at 19th level makes a nice almost-capstone for this build.
If 3rd party material is allowed, you can gain the same effect for two feats: Spell Focus (Conjuration) (which you get no use out of since you are not a spellcaster) and Arcane Student (from the Genius Guide to Feats of Multiclassing) for the Shift power -- and you can qualify for both of those feats by being 3rd level and having an Int of at least 13. Then you can take Arcane Student again followed by Arcane Scholar at 11th level (or even 10th level, if you are a rogue and select Feat as your rogue talent at that level) to get Dimensional Steps considerably sooner than you could get it from VMC Wizard.
By the way -- VMC Wizard does not in any way make a character non-martial, as it does not confer any sort of spell progression. That single cantrip at 11th level is less than a gnome gets from his race.
I think we're reading too much into the 'Martial' part. This isn't a build challenge or anything - BlackJack even specified that he considered DimDoor + Dimension Dervish and only rejected it because it comes online too late for him.
I think he just wants a character that does tele-charges and focuses on physically attacking enemies, and doesn't mind if it comes from magic, SLAs, supernatural powers, etc.
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If your game allows Variant Multi-Classing - you can go whatever base class you want and take VMC in wizard:teleport specialist and get Shift at level 7.
If your GM doesn't hose you - you can take a feat to be able to act in the round after you use it. (technically doesn't quite follow RAW to allow access to the feat - but you'd already be using variant rules anyway)
You could Variant Multiclass Teleportation wizard, but even then you only get the Shift Power at 7th and it would require a house rule on your DM's part because it's a supernatural ability and not a spell-like ability.
Other options would be to level dip the same wizard class, preferably with a slayer who values INT, and then progress from there. Requires the same clarification from the DM though.
Paladin's can get it done by either going Sacred Servant (Travel Domain) or taking Unsanctioned Knowledge (or both).
Both magi and bards can do it at 10th level with feat retraining.
And Bloodragers can do it at 13th I believe if they take the arcane bloodline.
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Slayer 8/Horizon Walker 3...After that it is up to you.
Go 2 handed Str build for very little feat investment.
@8 Slayer gets swift action study and a few nice things to be roguish.
The Horizon walker gets you the d. Door which qualifies you for Dimensional agility feats.
Enjoy doing exactly what you imagined...just know that this tactic comes online later in the game but it does eventually come online. Teleporting martial is a strong thing.
People seem to think that for some reason that sneak attack and martial are mutually exclusive. They are not. As Fruian Thistlefoot pointed out Slayer fits the bill rather nicely here. That is also the chassis I would recommend. I would only go 6 levels in, though, before jumping into Horizon Walker. Then I would go Shadowdancer for the rest of the character's career.
Throw in Fetchling as the race for more Dim Doors. Get a Cape of the Montebank. Most DMs will allow Shadowdancer's ability to use the Dimensional line of feats with (while this isn't RAW it has the support of the original Designer and at least one Developer).
And look what you got there. It meets every one of the OP's requests. It comes online early: at 9th level. This is SOONER than a Magus gets it and the Horizon Walker can use it more often. You get Sneak Attack without giving up a full BAB Martial character.
In fact, the only class which gets it sooner is the Synthesist Summoner. That class is such a poorly written stinking pile of trash most DMs don't even allow it at their table and PFS bans it outright. It has more errata and FAQ than all other classes combined. It getting early entry into that feat chain is probably another good reason to disallow the class. ...and if it isn't clear, I strongly dislike the Synthesist.
I also want to strongly agree with Fruian again that this is a class ability that was MEANT to come on later in the game as it is a very powerful ability. That being said the options outlined above can give you the feeling of the powerful character you want him to become all the way up until you can do what you want to do. Slayer is a strong class and it meets what you want out of your character.
Hard to do much earlier than a magus. Something into horizon walker would be the other way (slayer base is a neat idea), as is wizard VMC.
That kind of ability just doesn't come easy in pathfinder.
A wizard VMC would have a lot wrong with it.
Like BaB, saves, HP, martial weapon profiency, AC....should I go on with how a wizard is not wanting to D. Door to the enemy but away from them.
Magus is a better choice but being a 6th level caster his D. Door come online as late as many other classes.
Wizard VMC is implying a base chassis (Fighter, Brawler, Slayer, Barbarian etc) with the Wizard's VMC Feat Suite on it.
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Unchained Monk gets abundant step at 8th level. Ring of Ki Mastery can reduce the cost to 1 ki. With retraining from Ultimate Campaign you could potentially retrain into needed feats at level 8.
Add sacred vow (not sure if unchained monks can take this) traits and a decent wisdom and you could have this build going pretty well
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A wizard VMC would have a lot wrong with it.
Like BaB, saves, HP, martial weapon profiency, AC....should I go on with how a wizard is not wanting to D. Door to the enemy but away from them.
Magus is a better choice but being a 6th level caster his D. Door come online as late as many other classes.
Obvious you don't know what VMC is.
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Saying it as Wizard VMC is bad description of the Idea you are trying to convey:
(Base Class) VMC Wizard for X.
That seems much less confusing
Obvious you don't know what VMC is.
What is this pathfinder game you go on about?
I have the understanding of them that they allow you to give up feats to get secondary class abilities of other classes. My group does not play with the rules so I have yet to have a need to dive deep into trying to get advantage out of them. But I assume now knowing he isn't using wizard as the base class he is using Teleportation to get the effect of D. Door.
But you would be wrong in your statement that I do not know what it is...I do indeed know what it is. Obviously you don't know what other people are thinking.
LazarX: You are wrong. My last post explained why.
If your GM is generous, Blink Dog is CR 2, then Urban Druid to level 6 so he can use Thousand Faces...
So by level 8 can pose as a humanoid, and have unlimited Blink/Dimension Door.
You could dip into wizard and grab the teleportation subschool. That gives you 3+int swift action 5ft. teleportation hops.
Wouldn't work with dimensional dervish, but it'd still be pretty good for getting into position with sneak attack.
A friend of mine did a Vivisectionist X/Wizard(teleportation subschool) 1, and used it to get into position for full-attacks. 5ft step + swift action 5ft teleport, then he's in position to flank and full attack. It was fairly deadly.
Note that the ability says 'as if using dimension door', so a draconian GM might rule that you don't get any actions after using your swift actions to teleport - You may have to counteract this by picking up Dimensional Agility. The rest of the feat chain doesn't do much for you, as your teleportation distance is only 5 ft.
The Deception subdomain of the Trickery domain is also fairly cool, but it's more for flavor than anything else.
If you're DM is okay with it, you could try this class out.
If you're looking for any more VMC options, I recommend an Oracle of Time. The Time Hop revelation at level 7 grants 10ft per level (usable in 5ft increments) teleportation as a move action that doesn't provoke AoO's. If you're judicious about it, that's enough to bounce around and provide plenty of flanking as soon as you get it.
For the base class, I'd probably choose Ninja. So many excellent talents. :D
I know this isn't the third party forum, but Path of War characters can do teleport attacksvas early as level 3. It's the easiest way to get what you are looking for.
Felyndiira is right on the money here, a level 3 stalker with maneuvers from the Veiled Moon discipline can play this character type incredibly well more or less right from the get-go. Focus on maneuvers like Fading Strike, Ghostwalk and Twisting Ether.
Unfortunately you'll need to be able to use Path of War, which is (highly regarded) 3rd party material.
If you're looking for any more VMC options, I recommend an Oracle of Time. The Time Hop revelation at level 7 grants 10ft per level (usable in 5ft increments) teleportation as a move action that doesn't provoke AoO's. If you're judicious about it, that's enough to bounce around and provide plenty of flanking as soon as you get it.
For the base class, I'd probably choose Ninja. So many excellent talents. :D
Go with the teleportation wizard subschool instead, if you're VMCing - we're talking the difference between 70ft per day as a move action each time, or 15*(3+int) mod per day as a swift action to activate each time.
Really, going with the Time Hop is a bad call, since you can get the flanking movement just by tumbling instead of mucking about with teleportation.
Sorry, I disagree. I think Time Hop is far superior to Shift.
• It can be used in increments of 5ft all the way up to your maximum of 10ft per level (capped at 200ft), as you please, while Shift can only move a maximum of 5ft per 2 levels (capped at 50ft).
• You don't waste any "uses per day" by choosing a short distance so if you only used 5-10ft increments you'd have far more uses available in a given day.
• You can take people with you by expending distance.
The only thing Shift is better at, apart from being a swift action, is that it's usable from level 1. This is, admittedly, a very useful feature and makes it a much better choice for dipping.
If time hop is anything like the travel domain power, it'd also save a feat on Dimensional Agility.
Does a VMC wizard eventually get the 8th level school power? If so they'd have the best of both worlds (mostly).
Doesn't a Solar Oracle get early access to the dimensional feats?
How about the unchained monk of the mantis.
Full bab -check
Sneak attack -check
abundant step or ddoor -check
I think that would work well.
Sorry, I disagree. I think Time Hop is far superior to Shift.
• It can be used in increments of 5ft all the way up to your maximum of 10ft per level (capped at 200ft), as you please, while Shift can only move a maximum of 5ft per 2 levels (capped at 50ft).
• You don't waste any "uses per day" by choosing a short distance so if you only used 5-10ft increments you'd have far more uses available in a given day.
• You can take people with you by expending distance.The only thing Shift is better at, apart from being a swift action, is that it's usable from level 1. This is, admittedly, a very useful feature and makes it a much better choice for dipping.
Dude. Swift Action. Martials love full attacks so much it's not even funny. You're seriously telling me I should be throwing away the ability to full attack every round I teleport, in exchange for the ability to conserve uses per day? Really?
Also, VMC oracle doesn't give you the ability to take time hop. There's a fixed list you have to adhere to. Even if someone house-ruled the Time mystery and Time Hop onto the list (which is not an unreasonable proposal, grant you that), you couldn't get at it before 15th level, due to the oracle level requirement combined with inconvenient spacing of the Revelations granted.
If VMC qualifies you for Extra Revelation (is VMC abilities class features?) and you homebrew that you can take Time Hop with VMC oracle, then yes, you could take it at 9th level.
If time hop is anything like the travel domain power, it'd also save a feat on Dimensional Agility.
Does a VMC wizard eventually get the 8th level school power? If so they'd have the best of both worlds (mostly).
They get the 8th level power at 19th level, so it's too late for it to really matter.
I really don't get why you guys like Time Hop so much. Yeah, it's unrelated to Dimension Door, but that means that you can't even get teleport+full attack out of it by taking the whole damn 'Dimensional X' tree. You're stuck doing teleport+standard action, which sucks to a martial character.
Honestly the class that fills this type of playstyle best is an unchained monk with flying kick. Teleporting is a very strong ability and you'll be hard pressed to get it early on. Ninja however might be able to 'mimic' such motions with their incredible mobility while having high damage output.
I know this isn't the third party forum, but Path of War characters can do teleport attacksvas early as level 3. It's the easiest way to get what you are looking for.Felyndiira is right on the money here, a level 3 stalker with maneuvers from the Veiled Moon discipline can play this character type incredibly well more or less right from the get-go. Focus on maneuvers like Fading Strike, Ghostwalk and Twisting Ether.
Unfortunately you'll need to be able to use Path of War, which is (highly regarded) 3rd party material.
The Harbringer can also pull similar shenanigans and can get at will teleport at level 9.
Path of War has the added advantage of making you less reliant on full attacks which helps a mobile combat style.
@The Dragon:
Yes, I see what you mean. I didn't actually look up the Oracle-specific VMC rules last time and was basing my opinion on the assumption you could get it more or less the same as an oracle would. Having seen the restrictions now (including the inability to take the Extra Revelations feat AND the fact that you can only take revelations as an oracle of character level - 6!), I agree that it is totally impractical for this application.
I will say that in other circumstances, teleport+standard action can be quite powerful though. Some character builds do rely on one very powerful hit instead of a few smaller ones.
I know this isn't the third party forum, but Path of War characters can do teleport attacksvas early as level 3. It's the easiest way to get what you are looking for.Felyndiira is right on the money here, a level 3 stalker with maneuvers from the Veiled Moon discipline can play this character type incredibly well more or less right from the get-go. Focus on maneuvers like Fading Strike, Ghostwalk and Twisting Ether.
Unfortunately you'll need to be able to use Path of War, which is (highly regarded) 3rd party material.
The Harbringer can also pull similar shenanigans and can get at will teleport at level 9.
Path of War has the added advantage of making you less reliant on full attacks which helps a mobile combat style.
Cool! I'm waiting for Expanded to release before really poring over the new classes, but I've been following the discipline play test with very keen interest. :)