Do you see a frequency written for how often you can breath?
Or how often [not how often per turn] you can move or attack?
If you can do something, and it has no restriction on uses, then you can do it as often as you have the actions to do so.
That's kinda falling back on the "it doesn't say I can't, so I can" argument...
The RAW on using it ends up a bit odd since the feat doesn't say how often you can use it, or how long it even lasts, and that can definitely end up with some YMMV.
But, I guess that's what you end up with when Racial Heritage has no guidelines or restrictions, and not every single racial thing is written with it in mind.
The usage period and all that are still ambiguous for a full Kitsune too. Racial Heritage doesn't change that at all.
So I can only breath 1x or 3x per day. Got it.
Not to be a jerk, but I consider breathing an ongoing thing that requires literally no concentration, not individual actions...
I don't mean capital C concentration, I mean, you know, unconscious stuff your body does.
You focus on STOPPING breathing, you don't focus on breathing.
If you did, you would never survive your first time sleeping.
Using an ingame ability requires actions, so frequency is something that should be considered.
As for how often you can move or attack, there are limits on how many times per day you can do that.
Trying to remove turns from the equation ("Or how often [not how often per turn] you can move or attack?") doesn't lend credence to the idea that this feat somehow grants unlimited use of shapechanging...
I could easily go either way on this one, as a GM, I don't see it causing trouble, so I would likely be permissive with it.
If I wasn't a nice GM, I could just adopt the standpoint I mentioned earlier: Player, you find the text telling me how often humans can use this Kitsune ability, and you can use it that often.
Just because you qualify for a feat doesn't mean you can USE it. The feat does what it says it does. No more, no less.
Without commenting on the merits of the OP's question (too much), I will say I've learned a couple of things from this thread:
1) I was unable to find a link to the feat in the Paizo PRD. It is in the d20pfsrd. Is its absence significant? (Or is my Google-fu just weak?)
2) The feat text describes changing from kitsune form to fox form. As one who plays a kitsune, this seems to mean that I could not change from human to fox, but would have to go through the intervening "natural" kitsune form.
However, is this restriction overridden by "otherwise functions as beast shape II"?
3) If we read the "otherwise functions as beast shape II" text literally, the fox form has a limited duration, even for kitsune (!), despite their ability to change shape as many times as they like.
4) Fox Shape is not listed as (Su) or (Sp). Change Shape racial ability is supernatural (no AoO). Does that make the Fox Shape spell-like ("otherwise like beast shape II"), and thus subject to AoO? Even if a kitsune?
Seems like this feat is poorly written all around.
I'm actually gonna break it down and do a sentence by sentence analysis of this.
"You can take the form of a fox whose appearance is static and cannot be changed each time you assume this form."
Cool. Sounds awesome, hope it mentions how often I can do it...
"Your bite attack’s damage is reduced to 1d3 points of damage on a hit, but you gain a +10 racial bonus on Disguise checks made to appear as a fox."
Um, neat. Didn't have a bite attack before, so I gain one? But it says reduce... I'm confused... Hey, at least I can disguise myself as a fox now! Woo hoo!
"Changing from kitsune to fox shape is a standard action."
Good to know, we can throw THAT sentence out though, because you aren't a Kitsune, and all your feat let you do was count as one TO QUALIFY FOR THE FEAT.
"This ability otherwise functions as beast shape II, and your ability scores change accordingly."
There we go. So, since no duration is mentioned, we can consult the spell, 1 minute per level. Since frequency of use isn't mentioned either, we can consult the spell. Hrm. I guess since it otherwise functions as Beast Shape II, then you have to cast it to use it, as is 'otherwise functions as Beast Shape II'.
Add it to your spell list maybe?
Yeah, without jumping through some hoops, this ability is hard to interpret.
If you want to argue that unspecified criteria are up to the players to choose, please cite the source. Anything else is just supposition.
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I'm actually gonna break it down and do a sentence by sentence analysis of this.
"You can take the form of a fox whose appearance is static and cannot be changed each time you assume this form."
Cool. Sounds awesome, hope it mentions how often I can do it...
"Your bite attack’s damage is reduced to 1d3 points of damage on a hit, but you gain a +10 racial bonus on Disguise checks made to appear as a fox."
Um, neat. Didn't have a bite attack before, so I gain one? But it says reduce... I'm confused... Hey, at least I can disguise myself as a fox now! Woo hoo!
"Changing from kitsune to fox shape is a standard action."
Good to know, we can throw THAT sentence out though, because you aren't a Kitsune, and all your feat let you do was count as one TO QUALIFY FOR THE FEAT.
"This ability otherwise functions as beast shape II, and your ability scores change accordingly."
There we go. So, since no duration is mentioned, we can consult the spell, 1 minute per level. Since frequency of use isn't mentioned either, we can consult the spell. Hrm. I guess since it otherwise functions as Beast Shape II, then you have to cast it to use it, as is 'otherwise functions as Beast Shape II'.
Add it to your spell list maybe?
Yeah, without jumping through some hoops, this ability is hard to interpret.
If you want to argue that unspecified criteria are up to the players to choose, please cite the source. Anything else is just supposition.
This feat doesn't list a number of times you can do it per day, even for Kitsune. It can be assumed that it gives you an infinite amount of uses, without an arbitrary limit like "add it to your spell list."
You know, feats like Vital Strike, Power Attack, Deadly Aim, Cleave, etc. don't list a "number of times you can use this per-day." Are we to assume none of these feats function, because it's not specifically giving you the ability to use them at-will? That's silly. Just like it's silly to impose a made-up restriction on the number of times you can use the Fox Shape feat per day.
The RAW on using it ends up a bit odd since the feat doesn't say how often you can use it, or how long it even lasts, and that can definitely end up with some YMMV.
But, I guess that's what you end up with when Racial Heritage has no guidelines or restrictions, and not every single racial thing is written with it in mind.
You're ignoring that the base Kitsune magical racial trait, Change Shape, which Fox Shape is based on, does not list a duration or a frequency. It does say it "otherwise acts as alter self, except that the kitsune does not adjust her ability scores and can remain in this form indefinitely."
This makes it an at-will ability with no duration. Fox Shape would follow this line of reasoning as well.
Without commenting on the merits of the OP's question (too much), I will say I've learned a couple of things from this thread:
1) I was unable to find a link to the feat in the Paizo PRD. It is in the d20pfsrd. Is its absence significant? (Or is my Google-fu just weak?)
It's from a Paizo splat book, so not surprising that it's not on the PRD. The copyright info is listed on PFSRD as being from Pathfinder Player Companion: Dragon Empires Primer.
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I was unable to find a link to the feat in the Paizo PRD. It is in the d20pfsrd. Is its absence significant? (Or is my Google-fu just weak?)
The Paizo PRD only contains the contents of the hardcovers - the feat comes from Dragon Empires Primer, one of the Player Companions.
Seems like this feat is poorly written all around.
Player Companions are frequently more loosely written, probably in an attempt to save wordcount or meet tighter deadlines. Unfortunately, they almost never receive errata either. :(
The RAW on using it ends up a bit odd since the feat doesn't say how often you can use it, or how long it even lasts, and that can definitely end up with some YMMV.
But, I guess that's what you end up with when Racial Heritage has no guidelines or restrictions, and not every single racial thing is written with it in mind.
Thats an excelent point.. if its not tied to shape change, how do you determine uses per day?
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No IT"S not within the rules of racial heritage. Racial heritage can not give you racial features that are not part of your base race. You don't get a kobold's tail, nor the kitusne power to change shape. The most that can be said is that you gain the feat but without the base powr that the feat modifies it has no effect.
Point to me where the fox shape feat states that you need to have the kitsune's "change shape" ability to use the feat, or that it otherwise modifies the change shape ability.
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All I can say to this thread is that:
a) Much like so much of the system, it's ambiguous enough that there is no One True Way. In PFS, Expect Table Variation. I personally would allow it, but I wouldn't get mad if another GM didn't.
b) I've had this in one of my campaigns, on a ranger in Carrion Crown. It's pretty harmless. ^_^
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No IT"S not within the rules of racial heritage. Racial heritage can not give you racial features that are not part of your base race. You don't get a kobold's tail, nor the kitusne power to change shape. The most that can be said is that you gain the feat but without the base powr that the feat modifies it has no effect.No, this is clearly within the rules of Racial Heritage. It does not require the change shape Magical Racial Trait to take Fox Shape. If it did, it wouldn't say "Preqrequisite:..., Kitsune," it would say, "Prerequisite:..., Change Shape Racial Trait."Because as demonstrated in previous cases of this nature, there is no rules text to support the OP's assertation. The only defense of what the OP wants falls into "ignore the rule because it's a cool idea" variety.How is this out of rules territory?Hey, how often could a human use this, if it were allowed by the GM?Depends on the GM. Since you're out of rules territory, I can't give you an answer to beat his head with.
You don't need the Kitsune's ability to change shape because the Fox Shape feat is what grants the ability to change into a fox. This is not the same as Tail Terror and Racial Heritage (Kobold).
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Thats an excelent point.. if its not tied to shape change, how do you determine uses per day?The RAW on using it ends up a bit odd since the feat doesn't say how often you can use it, or how long it even lasts, and that can definitely end up with some YMMV.
But, I guess that's what you end up with when Racial Heritage has no guidelines or restrictions, and not every single racial thing is written with it in mind.
I would say the same way you determine how often you can use power attack.
I would say the same way you determine how often you can use power attack.Thats an excelent point.. if its not tied to shape change, how do you determine uses per day?The RAW on using it ends up a bit odd since the feat doesn't say how often you can use it, or how long it even lasts, and that can definitely end up with some YMMV.
But, I guess that's what you end up with when Racial Heritage has no guidelines or restrictions, and not every single racial thing is written with it in mind.
Thank you.
No IT"S not within the rules of racial heritage. Racial heritage can not give you racial features that are not part of your base race. You don't get a kobold's tail, nor the kitusne power to change shape. The most that can be said is that you gain the feat but without the base powr that the feat modifies it has no effect.Point to me where the fox shape feat states that you need to have the kitsune's "change shape" ability to use the feat, or that it otherwise modifies the change shape ability.
look up. this has been done repeatedly in this thread.
I would say the same way you determine how often you can use power attack.Thats an excelent point.. if its not tied to shape change, how do you determine uses per day?The RAW on using it ends up a bit odd since the feat doesn't say how often you can use it, or how long it even lasts, and that can definitely end up with some YMMV.
But, I guess that's what you end up with when Racial Heritage has no guidelines or restrictions, and not every single racial thing is written with it in mind.
Try again. Power attack says it applies whenever you make a melee attack. So unless you really want to be a furry fastball special...
And Fox Shape allows you to take the form of a fox.
How often and for how long? Whats your basis for saying at will? Is it Su, sp, ex? These are the details they usually put in for new abilities.
I say its based off of change shape because thats what it implies pretty much every sentence. That gives me the action it is, time, duration, whether its ex su or sp, and all the other details that you're missing if you try to consider it its own ability. All the pieces fit. You don't like that I'm reaching a common sense solution instead of going sola raw: too bad. Common sense has a better track record in being right eventually.
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No, this is clearly within the rules of Racial Heritage.Is it clearly within the rules to get Kobold Tail Terror also?
There is a difference. I was on the side of no tail with Racial Heritage in that argument. In this case, there is no prerequisite that states you must have the shape change racial trait. The prerequisites are listed in the feat: Cha 13, base attack bonus +3, kitsune.
Racial Heritage (Kitsune) qualifies you for the feat, assuming you have Cha 13 and BAB +3. If you take the feat, you gain the ability to turn into a fox at will. It's really that easy. And it's not a stretch at all to believe that a human with kitsune blood running through their veins might have some mystical kitsune-like abilities, such as the ability to turn into a fox. Both rules-wise and thematically, I see no problem with this particular feat combination. Tail Terror, on the other hand, never grants you a tail thus you cannot make tail attacks.
As often as you wish for how long you wish.
Based on....? This isn't raw either.
Because you gain the ability to do so and it's not restricted.
Thats nonsense. Many things you gain the ability to do are restricted.
As for Su, sp or ex, I'm going to go with Sp because it references a spell. Though if I were GMing I'd probably make it Ex.
With your way you don't know. With my way I do.
it just baffles my mind that you could see something so simple and make it complicated.
Its the exact opposite of complicated the way i read it. Parsimony is a good argument for any hypothesis. It alters your change shape. This lets me know the type of ability it is, how long it lasts, what and automatically fills in all the missing details that you'd otherwise have to arbitrarily rule on and that they probably would have included if they'd intended it the way you read it. The way I read it is simple, clean, effective, informative and as a bonus thats exactly what the feat says it does : adds another option to your ability to assume other forms.
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I'll allow it in my games and I think it's obvious enough that it doesn't need to be FAQ'd, but since there is legitimate debate about it, I'll go ahead and follow Liz Courts' advice to FAQ the OP.
I encourage others to do the same instead of repeating themselves in frustration. =]
Question 1: What does the feat allow you to do.
Answer 1: Take the form of a Fox.
change into a fox in addition to your other forms
On a kitsune feat. Its no great leap of logic to tell what ability they're talking about.
Question 2: what restrictions does the feat place on this action.
This is simply not how the game and its rules work. There is no "it doesn't say i can't so i can" rule that lets you adjudicate from "there's no restriction so its unrestricted". every single time I have seen this argument invoked : foot claws, 5 armed sword wielding tetnacle beasts, wis + wis stacking, it has been wrong.
It doesn't list a number of times so its infinite isn't an answer.
It doesn't list a type so it works in an anti magic field isn't an answer.
Answer 2: Takes a Standard Action, doesn't grant any abilities not granted by Beast Shape 2, and reduces the bite damage of the character [if they have one] to d3
Shape changing is one of the most fiddly and complicated bits of the game. Any time a rule runs into changing shape it gets complicated. Your answer is not plain and simple. Your answer raises far too many questions that it can't satisfactorily answer. If it was supposed to work the way you say the game would have included those mechanics for you.
Leave over trying to brow beat people into agreeing with you. Your argument for your position isn't nearly that good. In a home game ask your DM. For pfs I'd say expect table variation but it looks like the answer is almost invariably no.
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Let's then go to the wording of change shape, shall we...
A kitsune can assume the appearance of a specific single human form of the same sex. The kitsune always takes this specific form when she uses this ability. A kitsune in human form cannot use her bite attack, but gains a +10 racial bonus on Disguise checks made to appear human. Changing shape is a standard action. This ability otherwise functions as alter self, except that the kitsune does not adjust her ability scores and can remain in this form indefinitely.
How many times can I use this per day?
Since "it doesn't list a number of times so it's infinite" is not an answer, I guess this ability is unusable. Too bad, I like the idea of disguising myself as a human.