Owner - D20 Hobbies
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So, what about a Scion of Humanity Angel-Blooded Aasimar, with Racial Heritage(Kitsune)?
They have Alter Self as a racial Spell-like ability.
Give them Adopted/Tusked, they also have a Bite.
What now, is the reason?
Well, in that case I'd say Fox Shape would apply to their Alter Self ability.
A hat of disguise operates like disguise self. It's illusion, not transmutation. Not exactly on the same level as something like alter self or change shape. So, even going by that interpretation, no, that wouldn't really work.
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A hat of disguise operates like disguise self. It's illusion, not transmutation. Not exactly on the same level as something like alter self or change shape. So, even going by that interpretation, no, that wouldn't really work.
What about a Hat of Disguise, Greater, in that case?
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Well, in that case I'd say Fox Shape would apply to their Alter Self ability.
Which does what, exactly?
Alright... maybe I'm a little slow, but can someone explain to me why a PFS character with RH (kitsune) can't take Fox Shape? I was under the impression that RH was only restricted for rules elements from the ARG, and no other books.
Can someone lay it out for me, nice and clear? Thank you in advance!
Sure thing
To put it simply, each additional resource item has it's own set of rulings on what is, and is not, legal for play in PFS (and these rulings may change over time).
At current ruling, there is a restriction on a certain set of feats from the Dragon Empires Primer limiting their use to Kitsune characters only.
There is a similar limitation for the Advanced Race Guide in PFS.
This means that these feat selections are only available to members of the appropriate race, regardless of whether or not another character qualifies for them otherwise.
There is no such limiting restriction on feats from the APG and UC.
This means that characters who meet the prerequisites for the feat may take it as normal.
For example:
Princess Animal Parts is a human that has Racial Heritage(Kitsune).
While she meets the prerequisites for Magical Tail, she cannot take it in PFS because she is not a Kitsune character.
Fox Shape has a similar ruling on the additional resource page, so she cannot take it either.
However, she still counts as both humanoid(Human) and Humanoid(kitsune) for the purpose of how effects and magic items affect her, she does not need a boon sheet to have the feat Racial Heritage(kitsune)(She was made prior to kitsune being a non-boon race), and she is allowed small aesthetic touches that in no way have mechanical advantages(she is permitted to have a fox tail and fox ears, though they are merely for show).
Ben Dan is a human that has Racial Heritage(Orc).
He meets all the prerequisites for Deathless Initiate (Str13, Con13, orc or half orc, Diehard, Endurance, and BAB +6). Because Deathless Initiate is a PFS legal feat and has no ruling restricting it to only Orc or Half Orc characters, he may take it in PFS.
He cannot take the feat Gore Fiend, even though he meets the prerequisites since he is not a half-orc character and the ruling on feats from the ARG limits them to such characters.
Contributor
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Alright... maybe I'm a little slow, but can someone explain to me why a PFS character with RH (kitsune) can't take Fox Shape? I was under the impression that RH was only restricted for rules elements from the ARG, and no other books.
Can someone lay it out for me, nice and clear? Thank you in advance!
Sure thing
-lots of good info-
I see. Thank you very much! ^_^
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Owner - D20 Hobbies
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So, it would be once per day, as a Spell-like ability, or their Alter Self ability functions as often as the Fox Shape ability does?
It is using your Alter Self ability, so how many times can you use it?
What about a Hat of Disguise, Greater, in that case?
I'd say no to Fox Shape in this case, as you can't take forms. The hat's magic can.
Fox Shape would apply to their Alter Self ability.Which does what, exactly?
Uses Beast Shape to take the form of a fox.
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Keep in mind all of these are how I'd rule in my game as GM. Much of this is off the rails, and nearly all of it you will see table variance on these subjects.
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I see. Thank you very much! ^_^Alright... maybe I'm a little slow, but can someone explain to me why a PFS character with RH (kitsune) can't take Fox Shape? I was under the impression that RH was only restricted for rules elements from the ARG, and no other books.
Can someone lay it out for me, nice and clear? Thank you in advance!
Sure thing
-lots of good info-
No prob!
Just be sure to check over the Additional Resources page any time you're planning on using something out of core, and you'll be set.Enjoy PFS!
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Owner - D20 Hobbies
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That seems like a lot of reaching, and adding stuff not covered in the feat.
It isn't reaching when you are Kitsune. It is only reaching when you skip a track to come at the feat from a different race.
The GM needs to decipher how it works, what it provides, etc because the feat doesn't have language in the feat for how to handle non-kitsune use.
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Another issue I just noticed:
Changing from kitsune to fox shape is a standard action.A human doesn't have a kitsune form. How are they using a standard to change from kitsune to fox shape if they start out human and have no kitsune form.
This is something I pointed out in the original post. The general concensus seems to be that racial heritage's "traits, feats, how spells and magic items affect you, and so on" covers it.
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To put it simply for those trying to understand...
The Racial Heritage feat (that a Human/Half-Elf/Half-Orc can take) -Kitsune- will allow you to take the "Fox Form" feat.
It just doesn't do anything for you. You don't have other forms and no basis to perform the shapeshifting to the fox form.
It is the same with the tails. Humans don't have the innate magical abilities that the Kitsune has, so they can not add to them. (and it doesn't give them a tail because of that)
If a GM in a home game is kind and lax, he would allow it. I would not, as it would make the Tibbit race a short human with a feat. (Well, two feats, including RH)
A developer has said it best before. Use your common sense when applying these feats in this way, and don't take feats that do nothing for you. (Like Tail Slap for a race without a tail)
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Now you are being silly.
Of course you are not changing from an actual Kitsune, but for intents and purposes, you are a Kitsune.
Yep, for the feat you count as a kitsune so the feat counts your form as kitsune. Seems straight forward.
To put it simply for those trying to understand...
The Racial Heritage feat (that a Human/Half-Elf/Half-Orc can take) -Kitsune- will allow you to take the "Fox Form" feat.
It just doesn't do anything for you. You don't have other forms and no basis to perform the shapeshifting to the fox form.
It is the same with the tails. Humans don't have the innate magical abilities that the Kitsune has, so they can not add to them. (and it doesn't give them a tail because of that)
If a GM in a home game is kind and lax, he would allow it. I would not, as it would make the Tibbit race a short human with a feat. (Well, two feats, including RH)
A developer has said it best before. Use your common sense when applying these feats in this way, and don't take feats that do nothing for you. (Like Tail Slap for a race without a tail)
The feat itself tells you what you need in this nifty section called prerequisites. They then also reiterate this in the feat like 'you may use your shapechange to assume the form of a fox'. There is NONE of that here. Same for the magic tails feats. Nothing refers to any kitsune traits being needed.
So it's totally unlike tail slap where is DOES refer to a needed trait, the tail, in the text. It's an apples vs orange situation.
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Seems "RAW" would say yes. Probably not "RAI," and it seems downright odd, but since it's 2 feats for a mediocre ability, I'd probably allow it if someone wanted it.
Another issue I just noticed:
Changing from kitsune to fox shape is a standard action.A human doesn't have a kitsune form. How are they using a standard to change from kitsune to fox shape if they start out human and have no kitsune form.
Not only that, a Kitsune can't, by this feat description, change from human form to fox form, but must spend the action to shift to kitsune, then an additional action to shift to fox.
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To put it simply for those trying to understand...
The Racial Heritage feat (that a Human/Half-Elf/Half-Orc can take) -Kitsune- will allow you to take the "Fox Form" feat.
It just doesn't do anything for you. You don't have other forms and no basis to perform the shapeshifting to the fox form.
It is the same with the tails. Humans don't have the innate magical abilities that the Kitsune has, so they can not add to them. (and it doesn't give them a tail because of that)
If a GM in a home game is kind and lax, he would allow it. I would not, as it would make the Tibbit race a short human with a feat. (Well, two feats, including RH)
A developer has said it best before. Use your common sense when applying these feats in this way, and don't take feats that do nothing for you. (Like Tail Slap for a race without a tail)
The feat itself tells you what you need in this nifty section called prerequisites. They then also reiterate this in the feat like 'you may use your shapechange to assume the form of a fox'. There is NONE of that here. Same for the magic tails feats. Nothing refers to any kitsune traits being needed.
So it's totally unlike tail slap where is DOES refer to a needed trait, the tail, in the text. It's an apples vs orange situation.
Actually, the quantifiers for both feats are in the "Fluff" section of the feat. One gives an attack (called a Tail Slap attack) while the other gains an additional form.
The big thread about this (more than Tail Slap was discussed) discussed tails suddenly becoming something that had always been there somehow (Schroeder's Tail) and this being able to suddenly get the ability to have another form when you don't have a clue how to do it is the same thing.
This feat assumes you already know how to shapeshift into one form, it is simply giving you another. Until that human gains (Shapeshifter) as a type, he can't use this feat. He can take it, sure, RH allows that, just as it allows one to take Tail Slap, even if you don't have a tail.
To put it another way, Does the human have the thing that the feat uses? No? Then he can't do it.
He has a tongue, so he can use the Grippli feat. He has hands, so he can gain claws from one of many feats that gains claw attacks. He has skin, so he can get a natural AC from fur/scales.
He, however, does not have a tail. A beak for the Tengu Bite Attack feat. He does not have a shapeshifting ability for the Fox Form.
Go ahead, take the feat. See the GM tell you "Ah, you can't change into fox form because of that." See him not allowing you to change out that feat.
If you have "well, the rules don't saw I can't" sort of situation, expect table variance, and a whole lot of groaning when you try it.
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To put it simply for those trying to understand...
The Racial Heritage feat (that a Human/Half-Elf/Half-Orc can take) -Kitsune- will allow you to take the "Fox Form" feat.
It just doesn't do anything for you. You don't have other forms and no basis to perform the shapeshifting to the fox form.
It is the same with the tails. Humans don't have the innate magical abilities that the Kitsune has, so they can not add to them. (and it doesn't give them a tail because of that)
If a GM in a home game is kind and lax, he would allow it. I would not, as it would make the Tibbit race a short human with a feat. (Well, two feats, including RH)
A developer has said it best before. Use your common sense when applying these feats in this way, and don't take feats that do nothing for you. (Like Tail Slap for a race without a tail)
The feat itself tells you what you need in this nifty section called prerequisites. They then also reiterate this in the feat like 'you may use your shapechange to assume the form of a fox'. There is NONE of that here. Same for the magic tails feats. Nothing refers to any kitsune traits being needed.
So it's totally unlike tail slap where is DOES refer to a needed trait, the tail, in the text. It's an apples vs orange situation.
Actually, the quantifiers for both feats are in the "Fluff" section of the feat. One gives an attack (called a Tail Slap attack) while the other gains an additional form.
The big thread about this (more than Tail Slap was discussed) discussed tails suddenly becoming something that had always been there somehow (Schroeder's Tail) and this being able to suddenly get the ability to have another form when you don't have a clue how to do it is the same thing.
This feat assumes you already know how to shapeshift into one form, it is simply giving you another. Until that human gains (Shapeshifter) as a type, he can't use this feat. He can take it, sure, RH allows that, just as it allows one to take...
"You can make a tail slap attack with your tail." Tail is in the actual text of the feat. Nothing about adding a tail.
Magic Tail: Tails are only part of the fluff and have NOTHING to do with the actual feats effect. "You gain a new spell-like ability, each usable twice per day, from the following list, in order:" Nothing there that requires any special kitsune trait...
Fox Shape: "You can take the form of a fox" ok, nothing kitsune trait there. "Changing from kitsune to fox shape". No issue here either. The Racial Heritage feat allows you to count as a kitsune for feats so for feats your form would count as a kitsune one.
So I'm not really seeing how magic tails and fox shape fall into the same category as tail slap. You question to "To put it another way, Does the human have the thing that the feat uses?" is yes for the first two feats as NOTHING extra is required for them to work. No special trait is referenced, required or sited. You only need to count as a kitsune and the Racial Heritage feat covers that.
But there's no way RAW to interpret that you need something the feat does not say you need.
Tail terror did not say that you needed a tail either. Its implicit in the ability, and thats the real problem. Many people don't believe in implicit no matter how many times the thing they don't believe in bites them in the rump.
You can't say that there's no raw way to interpret it that way and then not address anything I've said outlining exactly why its interpreted that way.
You cannot say that something is not written, and then dismiss the written words as fluff.
It doesn't say you need Change Shape, it doesn't say you need anything other than 13 Charisma, +3 BAB, and being a Kitsune. That's the requirements. That's RAW.
Those are whats required to take it. Not whats required to USE it. See tail terror again.
But regardless, others may continue to interpret it by adding restrictions and limits on the rule that are not present. I'm not entirely sure why you'd add those restrictions
Because its not primarily a restriction its a method of action. As linked above, I condluded that it was an alteration to change shape on a completely different manner (how long it lasted vs the ring for the songbird of doom)
Without interpreting it as an addition to change shape the ability is seriously missing some nuts and bolts it needs to actually work. You're talking about how the feat should be written if it was supposed to work with change shape: those words are there but you dismiss them as fluff. You argue it should be written to work with racial heritiage, something unlikely to have been on the authors radar when this was written.
You argue that if it was properly written as an add on to change shape it would have "your change shape ability can...." but look at everything its missing to function as its own independent ability. A lack of neigh prescient ability to predict interactions with one of the thousands of available feats is pretty understandable. Not giving a duraction, type, number of times per day would be a really big screw up.
Making the feat work off of change shape means that the car was shipped without being made compatible with the concurrently developed M-9947D trailer hitch. making the feat its own ability means that it was shipped without headlights.
limitations and made up requirements on cleave et all.
This line of argument is both insulting given he level of idiocy required and vacuous as you never address the points that are made. If you want to mock people by implying that they've said things that they haven't, don't. If you want to look down on someone for making an argument you need to actually address the argument and you're not: you're engaging in grand standing polemics and insulting people because... I have no idea why.
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Tail terror did not say that you needed a tail either.
Not true. "You can make a tail slap attack with your tail." It comes out ant tells you that you need something, a tail, to slap with. It however never gave you the tail. This isn't the case with the kistune feats. "See tail terror" is fairly meaningless as it's not the same situation.
As to nuts and bolts, they are lacking if either race took the feats as basing it off changeshape isn't a rule for either one. If you are basing it off of it then YOU are doing so, not the rules. Saying it can't work for a human would be saying it doesn't work for kitsune.
As to "unlikely to have been on the authors radar", what about several years later with bat shape? Several years later and they wrote an almost identical feat without knowing that humans can snag racial feats? I find it doubtful.
If you where arguing that change shape should be added, I'd see your point. That's possible. What seems impossible is connecting it to the feat as it's currently written. It's just not there. It seems to me an attempt to override RAW with what you think RAI is.
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The issue comes from Pathfinder's usual style of writing things. Stuff is written for who or what is intended to have it. Class abilities are written for members of the class and as though they are a part of it for example.
And Racial Heritage doesn't always play nice with that. Same is true of other similar options.
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Contributor
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The issue comes from Pathfinder's usual style of writing things. Stuff is written for who or what is intended to have it. Class abilities are written for members of the class and as though they are a part of it for example.
And Racial Heritage doesn't always play nice with that. Same is true of other similar options.
Indeed. This is also why we had such trouble with things like Arcane Deed or the variant multiclassing systems - abilities aren't always written as if a completely different character will be taking them. ^_^
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Okay, I'm going to consolidate all of my thoughts on this matter into one post and list every reason why I have the stance that I do regarding this feat.
-Question: why can I use this ability?
-A: Because the feat says "You can".
-There are lots of things you obviously can't do normally. A person normally can't fly, but the fly spell says you can. You normally can't imbue your sword with magical energy, but the "arcane strike" feat says you can. You normally can't turn into a fox, but the "fox shape" feat says you can. There are inumerable other examples of this, but it all boils down to "this is normally impossible, but here we present rules text that gives an exception. You used to be unable to do the thing, but now you can do the thing."
-Question: What are the pre-requisites of this feat? Do I qualify?
-A: BaB +3, Cha 13, Kitsune. Yes, I do qualify. I have 13 charisma, I'm a level 3 fighter, and I took the "racial heritage: Kitsune" feat.
-These are, verbatim, the requirements of the feat. The human is 100% capable of taking this feat. I don't think anyone is arguing that, but I wanted to make this post as thorough for this side of the argument as possible.
-Question: How many times per day can I use this ability?
-A: It is at-will.
-Many people seem to balk at this. However, there are just as many examples of at-will abilities having there duration un-noted as there are examples of rules telling you "you can". Arcane strike is one. Blinding flash and bullseye shot are two others I listed as examples. Hell, change shape itself is an ability that has language of "You can" and does not list any number of times per day. Are you going to try to tell me that change shape is 1/day or is otherwise broken for the kitsune? The bottom line is that when an ability tells you that you can do something but does not list a limit/time, it is an at-will ability.
-Question: What is the Action Cost?
-A: Standard action.
-Just wanted to cover this here to make sure I cover all the bases. It says there that "changing from a kitsune(read as human via the racial heritage feat) to fox shape is a standard action".
-Question: How do you handle the "bite" attack?
-A: You gain a 1d3 bite attack.
-While you cannot modify what you do not have, the feat states "Otherwise functions as Beast Shape II". Beast Shape II is a polymorph spell, and as per the rules of the polymorph spell, you gain any natural attacks of the form. So you gain a bite attack, and that bite attack is reduced to 1d3 by the feat.
-Question: What is the duration?
-A: 1 minute/level
-"Otherwise functions as beast Shape II".
-Question: How do I exit fox shape?
-A: It's dismissable as a standard action.
-"Otherwise functions as beast shape II". There is some reasonable debate upon whether the user can speak the verbal components, but I reason that, since in this case there were no verbal components involved, there are non that you need to dismiss it with.
-Question: What type of ability is fox shape?
-A: Unlisted. This means it's up to the GM.
-Now before you freak out, I want to point you (Again!) to arcane strike. Arcane strike also does not list what type of ability it is, and thus it also means it's up to the GM to decide how it functions. I personally would rule it to be SU, because an ability it's very similar to (coincidentally, change shape) is listed as SU. And it would be silly to claim that this ability works in an anti-magic field.
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That should about cover it. What else do you need to know the functions of the ability? What is there that you need to know that the text of the feat itself is not already telling you? You keep saying that the feat is broken as written and requires a lot of mental leaps, but my very literal reading of the rules and examples taken from other sources that clearly work say that this feat functions quite perfectly as written.
Yes, you can argue that it's intended to alter change shape, or intended to require change shape to use, but as the feat is written it does not alter it and it does not require it. In fact, I agree completely that the original intent of the ability probably did not have humans in mind at all. But this isn't a question of whether it's intended to work, this is a question of whether it does work. And my stance is that it does work and you don't have to leap through any hoops to make it work, since it tells you everything you need to know to make it work with just about as much information as many other abilities.
I should note that in the CRB it's stated that abilities provided by feats are Ex unless specified otherwise.
I should note that in the CRB it's stated that abilities provided by feats are Ex unless specified otherwise.
Citation?
My bad, I was sure to have read it somewhere.
But yes, "it works like Beast Shape" might be enough to push it into SLA territory
Question:
That should about cover it. What else do you need to know the functions of the ability? What is there that you need to know that the text of the feat itself is not already telling you? You keep saying that the feat is broken as written and requires a lot of mental leaps, but my very literal reading of the rules and examples taken from other sources that clearly work say that this feat functions quite perfectly as written.
look how many mental leaps you had to make. You cannot do that while beating the drum for raw is all and complaining that things weren't filled out specifically enough for you. You had to arbitrarily write in half the feat, all just to dismiss a line that tells you exactly what it does as fluff. That line isn't always fluff: it gives you the big picture for the feat. Remember pummeling style?
Tail terror has "you can" in it too. Except you can't.
You argue that if it was properly written as an add on to change shape it would have "your change shape ability can...." but look at everything its missing to function as its own independent ability. A lack of neigh prescient ability to predict interactions with one of the thousands of available feats is pretty understandable. Not giving a duraction, type, number of times per day would be a really big screw up.
I'll note that the Kitsune's change shape racial trait also doesn't list a duration or a number of uses per day.
Question:
That should about cover it. What else do you need to know the functions of the ability? What is there that you need to know that the text of the feat itself is not already telling you? You keep saying that the feat is broken as written and requires a lot of mental leaps, but my very literal reading of the rules and examples taken from other sources that clearly work say that this feat functions quite perfectly as written.
look how many mental leaps you had to make. You cannot do that while beating the drum for raw is all and complaining that things weren't filled out specifically enough for you. You had to arbitrarily write in half the feat, all just to dismiss a line that tells you exactly what it does as fluff. That line isn't always fluff: it gives you the big picture for the feat. Remember pummeling style?
Tail terror has "you can" in it too. Except you can't.
I didn't see any mental leaps myself.
Tail terror has "you can" in it too. Except you can't.
it says "you can attack with you tail", that converted in a more formal language means:
"if you have a tail, then you can use it for attacking"because there are many cases in which a creature has a tail bat cannot use it to attack. Incidentally a human with tail terror could make use of the feat if for example is a wildshaping druid that turns into a tiger, as the tiger has a tail but not a tail attack.
But the wording of the feat remains true as when you don't have a tail you don't attack and "false=>false" is a true proposition by itself.
The problem is that Fox Shape doesn't even mention the shapechanging ability of Kitsunes, and thus exists in a vacuum. It gives you the ability to turn in a fox without other requirements. It's like Draconic Glide, that gives the character wings instead of only applying abilities to pre-existing wings