Can a human take "Racial Heritage(Kitsune)" and then benefit from "Fox Shape"?

[graystone]

BigNorseWolf wrote:

in addition to your other forms

Why isn't human a valid reply to what forms you have other than fox? If someone asks how many swords I have I can answer with a singular 'one'. It seems like you're inventing a distinction that isn't there.

To the other answers, it has the same duration, number of uses and type of action for a human as a kitsune. So if you can't answer for one, you can't answer for another.

[Johnny_Devo]

Arcane Strike
Blinding Flash
Bullseye shot

Three feats that I found without even looking thoroughly, all of which have "you can" language, an action cost, and no written limitation of how many times per day that you can use it.

[blackbloodtroll]

Racial Heritage is quite fun with Ogre feats.

[RJGrady]

I'm just going to note that there are more than one feat in the APG, where Racial Heritage appears, that do specify not just a race, but also a trait of that race. For instance, Improved Stonecunning has the prerequisites, "Wis 13, dwarf, stonecunning racial trait."

Fox Shape does not have that.

You can use Fox Shape if you are a human with Racial Heritage (kitsune).

You can even use Fox Shape if you are a kitsune who swapped out change shape for an alternate racial trait.

[el cuervo]

RJGrady wrote:

I'm just going to note that there are more than one feat in the APG, where Racial Heritage appears, that do specify not just a race, but also a trait of that race. For instance, Improved Stonecunning has the prerequisites, "Wis 13, dwarf, stonecunning racial trait."

Fox Shape does not have that.

You can use Fox Shape if you are a human with Racial Heritage (kitsune).

You can even use Fox Shape if you are a kitsune who swapped out change shape for an alternate racial trait.

Thank you, I was looking for an example feat that required a racial trait in addition to the race itself and I couldn't find one. This is the exception that proves the rule.

[Gisher]

Kalindlara wrote:

TomG wrote:

Seems like this feat is poorly written all around.

Player Companions are frequently more loosely written, probably in an attempt to save wordcount or meet tighter deadlines. Unfortunately, they almost never receive errata either. :(

Generally it is unfortunate. Occasionally it is nice, though. I'm glad that Dervish Dance and Fencing Grace are unlikely to be "corrected" the way they "corrected" Slashing Grace.

[blackbloodtroll]

I don't find them to be errors.

That is a rather grievous misnomer, in my opinion.

[Gisher]

blackbloodtroll wrote:

I don't find them to be errors.

I don't either. I changed the wording to clarify that. I don't seem to be doing a good job communicating lately.

[blackbloodtroll]

Do not worry.

I figured I would give you a chance to clarify.

[BigNorseWolf]

RJGrady wrote:

I'm just going to note that there are more than one feat in the APG, where Racial Heritage appears, that do specify not just a race, but also a trait of that race. For instance, Improved Stonecunning has the prerequisites, "Wis 13, dwarf, stonecunning racial trait."

Fox Shape does not have that.

You can use Fox Shape if you are a human with Racial Heritage (kitsune).

You can even use Fox Shape if you are a kitsune who swapped out change shape for an alternate racial trait.

Fox shape is not in the ARG. its in the dragon empires primer, before the possibility of a non kitsune taking the ability or kitsune alternate race traits (or even race traits in general i think) were an option.

[graystone]

James Risner wrote:

graystone wrote:

Why isn't human a valid reply to what forms you have other than fox?

Quote:

You can change into a fox in addition to your other forms.

You don't change into human form, you were born like that.

A kitsune is different how? Aren't they born that way too? Doesn't a human that changes shape into a fox then change back into a human? Or are you saying humans are stuck and can't change into a human form after taking on another form?

I'm really confused on what you're point is.

[Cuuniyevo]

Advanced Player's Guide (which introduced Racial Heritage as a player feat) was released in 2010. Dragon Empires Gazetteer (which introduced the Kitsune as a playable race) was released in 2012; the same year as Dragon Empires Primer (which introduced Fox Shape as a player feat).

I'm unaware of any Paizo-released alternate race trait that swaps out Change Shape, so I don't know what you two are talking about in regards to that, but Racial Heritage did exist at the time Fox Shape was released, and it would be very simple for its prerequisites to have been (or still be) modified to preclude this whole argument.

Whether it was an oversight or intentional cannot be determined by us. It can only be determined by the PDT, so I encourage everyone to FAQ the first post in this thread instead of bickering further. We've stated our various points of view and I don't see any further progress being made.

[alexd1976]

kyrt-ryder wrote:

Skreeeeeeeeee wrote:

Johnny_Devo wrote:

BigNorseWolf wrote:

The Archive wrote:

The RAW on using it ends up a bit odd since the feat doesn't say how often you can use it, or how long it even lasts, and that can definitely end up with some YMMV.

But, I guess that's what you end up with when Racial Heritage has no guidelines or restrictions, and not every single racial thing is written with it in mind.

Thats an excelent point.. if its not tied to shape change, how do you determine uses per day?

I would say the same way you determine how often you can use power attack.

Thank you.

These guys have it figured out.

How many other feats/traits based off of spell use grant unlimited uses per day?

I was under the impression they generally defaulted to 1...

So, if we assume unlimited uses of this second level spell, where is an example to compare it to?

[kyrt-ryder]

If you want to compare it to the use of a spell you would need to compare it to an actual use of the spell.

Beast Shape 2 can take dozens if not hundreds of forms other than that of a fox, MANY of them FAR more powerful.

This isn't granting you Beast Shape 2, it's enabling you to turn into a fox and using Beast Shape 2 as a simple means of describing this transformation's limitations.

[Skreeeeeeeeee]

alexd1976 wrote:

How many other feats/traits based off of spell use grant unlimited uses per day?

I was under the impression they generally defaulted to 1...

So, if we assume unlimited uses of this second level spell, where is an example to compare it to?

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/groundling

Here's one.

EDIT: And as for traits, I have Beastkin, which functions in a somewhat similar manner.

[alexd1976]

Skreeeeeeeeee wrote:

alexd1976 wrote:

How many other feats/traits based off of spell use grant unlimited uses per day?

I was under the impression they generally defaulted to 1...

So, if we assume unlimited uses of this second level spell, where is an example to compare it to?

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/groundling

Here's one.

Mmm, good find! But, only first level spell, and it just lets you talk to certain critters, not alter your shape.

So, step in the right direction, but a level lower, and WAY less powerful on top of that (IMO, I rank polymorph effects higher than what is effectively ranks in linguistics).

Good find though.

Anyone else? Unlimited use level 2 spells from a feat?

[Skreeeeeeeeee]

alexd1976 wrote:

Mmm, good find! But, only first level spell, and it just lets you talk to certain critters, not alter your shape.

So, step in the right direction, but a level lower, and WAY less powerful on top of that (IMO, I rank polymorph effects higher than what is effectively ranks in linguistics).

Good find though.

Anyone else? Unlimited use level 2 spells from a feat?

Bear with me a second here.

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/racial-feats/wings-of-air-sylph

Would this count?

I know it doesn't technically say "functions as the Fly spell," or anything like that, but it functions similarly by giving you the at-will ability to fly(in light armor) for the cost of a couple feats.

[alexd1976]

Skreeeeeeeeee wrote:

alexd1976 wrote:

Mmm, good find! But, only first level spell, and it just lets you talk to certain critters, not alter your shape.

So, step in the right direction, but a level lower, and WAY less powerful on top of that (IMO, I rank polymorph effects higher than what is effectively ranks in linguistics).

Good find though.

Anyone else? Unlimited use level 2 spells from a feat?

Bear with me a second here.

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/racial-feats/wings-of-air-sylph

Would this count?

I know it doesn't technically say "functions as the Fly spell," or anything like that, but it functions similarly by giving you the at-will ability to fly(in light armor) for the cost of a couple feats.

That's pretty close, but requires level 9, instead of three.

Also, there are probably WAY easier ways to get a flight speed before that...

I mean, by this point (level 9) people are casting Planar Binding (lesser) and Teleport...

Meanwhile shapechanging Fox-man has been doing his trick for a full SIX LEVELS. :)

[john mclaughlin 11]

with the wild shape tattoo and the fox feat you would have three forms, human, fox, and the totem from from the tatoo

[Skreeeeeeeeee]

alexd1976 wrote:

Skreeeeeeeeee wrote:

alexd1976 wrote:

Mmm, good find! But, only first level spell, and it just lets you talk to certain critters, not alter your shape.

So, step in the right direction, but a level lower, and WAY less powerful on top of that (IMO, I rank polymorph effects higher than what is effectively ranks in linguistics).

Good find though.

Anyone else? Unlimited use level 2 spells from a feat?

Bear with me a second here.

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/racial-feats/wings-of-air-sylph

Would this count?

I know it doesn't technically say "functions as the Fly spell," or anything like that, but it functions similarly by giving you the at-will ability to fly(in light armor) for the cost of a couple feats.

That's pretty close, but requires level 9, instead of three.

Also, there are probably WAY easier ways to get a flight speed before that...

I mean, by this point (level 9) people are casting Planar Binding (lesser) and Teleport...

Meanwhile shapechanging Fox-man has been doing his trick for a full SIX LEVELS. :)

Then I'll have to concede to you on this point! There aren't many other feats I can think of that give you an at-will spell on the level of Beast Shape(even if limited) at such an early character level.

While I still believe that it should be at-will, as there's no wording to indicate otherwise, I will admit that the lack of examples to compare to makes it a suspect, so I'll give that point to you.

Otherwise, be it once per day or infinite, it does still seem that a human can benefit from the Fox Shape feat with Racial Heritage(Kitsune).

[alexd1976]

Skreeeeeeeeee wrote:

alexd1976 wrote:

Skreeeeeeeeee wrote:

alexd1976 wrote:

Mmm, good find! But, only first level spell, and it just lets you talk to certain critters, not alter your shape.

So, step in the right direction, but a level lower, and WAY less powerful on top of that (IMO, I rank polymorph effects higher than what is effectively ranks in linguistics).

Good find though.

Anyone else? Unlimited use level 2 spells from a feat?

Bear with me a second here.

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/racial-feats/wings-of-air-sylph

Would this count?

I know it doesn't technically say "functions as the Fly spell," or anything like that, but it functions similarly by giving you the at-will ability to fly(in light armor) for the cost of a couple feats.

That's pretty close, but requires level 9, instead of three.

Also, there are probably WAY easier ways to get a flight speed before that...

I mean, by this point (level 9) people are casting Planar Binding (lesser) and Teleport...

Meanwhile shapechanging Fox-man has been doing his trick for a full SIX LEVELS. :)

Then I'll have to concede to you on this point! There aren't many other feats I can think of that give you an at-will spell on the level of Beast Shape(even if limited) at such an early character level.

While I still believe that it should be at-will, as there's no wording to indicate otherwise, I will admit that the lack of examples to compare to makes it a suspect, so I'll give that point to you.

Otherwise, be it once per day or infinite, it does still seem that a human can benefit from the Fox Shape feat with Racial Heritage(Kitsune).

Regardless of printed text, i would likely allow this.

Whether or not I would allow unlimited use... probably not.

But it does sound relatively harmless... theoretically...

[graystone]

Also check out Bat Shape and Dire Bat Shape feats. Almost same wording in 2013.

[kyrt-ryder]

graystone wrote:

Also check out Bat Shape and Dire Bat Shape feats. Almost same wording in 2013.

Ok, that's it.

Next Paladin I play is going Human Racial Heritage Werebat-kin with those feats.

Level 3 rolls around and s/he is going to have a Dire-bat battle form for when flight is required.

[Byakko]

Don't underestimate Fox Shape.

It's an extremely effective combat tool in the right paws.

To put it in perspective, my Kitsune gets far more benefit out of it than a Barbarian gets out of the base Rage ability.

[Grrr De'Bonaire]

Byakko wrote:

Don't underestimate Fox Shape.

It's an extremely effective combat tool in the right paws.

To put it in perspective, my Kitsune gets far more benefit out of it than a Barbarian gets out of the base Rage ability.

+4 to hit (+2 dex +2 size) and +2 damage (from dex) is pretty sweet.

with mouser and vexing dodger you can use the abilities on 95% of opponents (hey, they're giants to me)

[Crimeo]

I would probably allow fox shape to let a player escape most grapples, in most situations. Not if you're grappled by enveloping ooze or something. (changing into it during, not just being a fox)

Also just walk right out of almost any jail cell that uses bars or cages. Any ropes. Any manacles.

Dunno about the combat, but I think it'd be worth it just for that utility stuff alone (and the inconspicuousness as well of course)

[Byakko]

I would highly advise using the normal rules for grappling when it comes to tiny creatures. It is one of the few (possibly) effective ways of dealing with these types of characters, and it makes perfect sense that it would be as hard for a tiny creature to escape a medium sized creature's grip as it would for that same medium creature to escape the grip of a huge creature.

Bars, cages, manacles, etc need to be appropriately sized to be effective against a creature. Rope too, to a certain extent, though the reasonable size range is much larger (and depends on rope thickness).

[Crimeo]

Quote:

it makes perfect sense that it would be as hard for a tiny creature to escape a medium sized creature's grip as it would for that same medium creature to escape the grip of a huge creature.

Right that's why I said I was only referring to them changing into a fox DURING the grapple. It's an unexpected change that makes you suddenly not fit whatever joint lock/grab/whatever the person was using against what they thought was a medium creature.

If you're already a fox, then grapple should be fully effective as any other time, because they calibrated for a fox grapple.

Same for ropes etc. I'm talking about somebody tying you up thinking you're a normal human, and then you turning into a fox, obviously the ropes just fall off. If they KNEW you could change into a fox they could just put you in a solid box sort of cell.

Anyway, this has never come up, I was just musing. It may totally break gameplay and have to be repealed if I allowed it. But I'm usually happy to try out realism experiments when they are in the favor of the player usually, with the understanding it's a trial/experiment. *shrug*

[Byakko]

Oh, right, sure, that makes sense.

Could always make use of circumstance modifiers too, if you're constrained by PFS rules.

[James Risner]

graystone wrote:

I'm really confused on what you're point is.

Kitsune has Change Shape. They can take forms. Humans don't have a polymorph effect, they can not naturally take forms.

[el cuervo]

James Risner wrote:

graystone wrote:

I'm really confused on what you're point is.

Kitsune has Change Shape. They can take forms. Humans don't have a polymorph effect, they can not naturally take forms.

That is true. Humans have no inherent shapechanging ability. But we aren't talking about a normal human here, we're talking about a human who has kitsune blood. The racial heritage feat gives the human some amount of kitsune heritage, and it's not a stretch to think that would grant some kitsune-like mystical ability -- say, the ability to change into a fox.

[Crimeo]

Quote:

they can not naturally take forms.

This would probably be super relevant if the feat used that word anywhere.

Again, if a GM wants to refuse to admit a house rule and press this silly point instead, then I simply buy a hat of disguise. Ta da! I now have other forms. (which don't need to be natural ones, since it doesn't say that. Just forms. I have them.)

[Grrr De'Bonaire]

alexd1976 wrote:

Diego Rossi wrote:

To repeat the edit above:

Even more fun: Best shape is "Components V, S, M ", so as for the rules about dismissing a spell: "You must be within range of the spell's effect and must speak words of dismissal, which are usually a modified form of the spell's verbal component."

Foxes don't speak.

What does the fox say?

CRUSH YOUR ENEMEIES SEE THEM DRIVEN BEFORE YOU, HEAR THE LAMENTATIONS OF THEIR WOMEN!

[James Risner]

Grrr De'Bonaire wrote:

alexd1976 wrote:

What does the fox say?

CRUSH YOUR ENEMEIES SEE THEM DRIVEN BEFORE YOU, HEAR THE LAMENTATIONS OF THEIR WOMEN!

Someone has watched Sens8.

If you haven't watched Sense8, you should watch Sens8.

[BigNorseWolf]

James Risner wrote:

Grrr De'Bonaire wrote:

alexd1976 wrote:

What does the fox say?

CRUSH YOUR ENEMEIES SEE THEM DRIVEN BEFORE YOU, HEAR THE LAMENTATIONS OF THEIR WOMEN!

Someone has watched Sens8.

If you haven't watched Sense8, you should watch Sens8.

*chuckle* Nope. The fox is a Gorumite.