Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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Secondly, it's pretty difficult to pull off: you need serious levels of wizard or cleric to do it,
Summon monster 2 is a second level spell and can get you a lemure.
That said, I don't think I have ever seen anyone use it.
Also, who says it isn't controversial? I've seen it come up on these boards several times.
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Summoning isn't an inherently evil act, no matter what you're summoning.
We do see some friction with summoners in general, not with Silver Crusade but with Liberty's Edge: "You're forcing a sentient creature to fight and die against its will? What's wrong with you?"
I have a Liberty's Edge character who bristles even more at Summon Nature's Ally: "Don't send that badger into battle--it's cute and furry!"
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Paladins can not prepare Infernal Healing nor use wands of it as it's not on their class list.Use Magic Device.
*looks at thread* Yeah, because more outrage is totally what we need around here... >.>
There was a thread a while back where some claimed that paladins who utilize Use Magic Device fall from paladinhood and lose all their powers.
Organized Play Developer
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Also, when you think about it, most good clerics/wizards/summoners are going to summon good outsiders and/or celestial templated creatures. Evil or neutral characters are more likely to summon the evil ones. Creating undead is desecrating a once-living body and binding it permanently to your will. Plus, undead are just creepy and icky. ;)
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The "controversy" is usually when you see Paladins casting Infernal Healing (as the last thread showed).
If a Paladin cast Summon Monster X, and it contained the Evil Descriptor, the same sort of thread would be spawned.
Which they CAN NOT do in either case.
Paladins can not prepare Infernal Healing nor use wands of it as it's not on their class list.
Nor for that matter can they cast the Summon Monster spell line, so those are non-existent examples.
You are incorrect.
There are several ways that a Paladin may go about doing this.
Unsanctioned Knowledge exists. Samsaran is a Boon Race. Pathfinder Savant exists. Multiclassing exists. UMD exists.
My brawler quite likes hugging infernals when they're summoned.
They never seem to appreciate it, though.
Perhaps it has something to do with the fact that her whole body counts as good aligned vs DR and does extra damage to evil outsiders?
-j
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My brawler quite likes hugging infernals when they're summoned.
They never seem to appreciate it, though.
Perhaps it has something to do with the fact that her whole body counts as good aligned vs DR and does extra damage to evil outsiders?
-j
I have on several occasions summoned a babau. You don't want to hug a babau.
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Creating a new thing and "borrowing" one are very different.
Ive only had a player summon an devil once, and that was bc it could ethereal jaunt and kill some phase spiders for the party that were hiding and spying on them. Since Xill love to do that anyways, and the summoner told her to lay eggs in them if she wanted, i went with it.
Woops my example wasnt PFS.
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There is controversy over the animation of the dead through the use of necromancy. Out of curiosity, why is there no controversy over the summoning of demons and devils and other evil outsiders in PFS?
Thoughts?
/Shakes head
It's like people WANT to start fights.
/sigh
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I'm not sure which is more surprising to me - the people acting like summoning perfectly legal things on the summon list might be controversial, or all the people in this thread saying that it never comes up.
I have a friend who played a tiefling witch and summoned devils occasionally. Nobody cared. About him summoning devils, or about his character being descended from them. We'd sit there and make jokes about the bearded devil he summoned being "Uncle Bob". If you're going to claim devils and demons are controversial, then why not tieflings? Those are extremely common in PFS, though slightly less so now that you need a boon to make one again.
A local player had a Chelaxian cleric of Asmodeus whose primary role in combat is devil summoner. At low levels, I remember him summoning so many lemures that as a GM, I almost asked him to slow down on the summoning, just to leave room on the battle map for everyone else. I didn't play with him quite often enough to ever reach that point, though. But he had a small horde of lemure minis, so they'd look like the right thing when he plopped 5 or 6 of them down on the map at once. Again, what he was summoning wasn't the controversial part, just the fact that he was hogging the front line.
On the other hand, outrage about animating the dead is very common on these boards, but I've only met one PC that's ever wanted to do it. That was a game at GenCon last month, and the character ended up not bothering doing it, because the situation just didn't need it. But in that case, you're abusing dead bodies of possibly good people, so I can see why there's slightly more controversy. Again, if you're going to allow borderline evil PCs, you have to expect some of this, so I personally don't care.
But I've said this before, and I'll say it again: Why are these things more controversial than all the times that murderhobo PCs start fights and kill "enemies" without even trying to talk their way out of fighting? Seriously, you'd think MURDER would be more controversial than summoning devils or animating corpses, and it's certainly MUCH more common, yet nobody sees that as the least bit controversial.
Point goes for the summons only lasting a few seconds, or a few minutes at most thanks to summoners spell like ability. It would be different if animated dead didn't stick around all day, and were not remains of former people. Particularly if people knew said people.
Someone summons a devil to haul things for a few seconds, a bit intimidating to normal folks, yet it goes away pretty quick. Using the remains of fellow kinsfolk and having them stick around for days or weeks is unsettling on many levels.
Of course, would it be more controversial for an evil wizard/sorcerer to conjure angels to do their evil deeds?
It's an image problem, face it. Most people that animate the dead do so for the wrong reasons. Most people that use summon monster to conjure devils and demons usually only do so as long as a fight lasts. Your necromancer might be different, yet tons of others have tarnished that reputation long ago.
Mostly because you are desecrating a once living being. If you want to summon monster flaming skeleton and can do so you probably won't get as much flack as raising a flaming zombie off your buddy's still warm corpse.
That's an absolutely AWESOME idea!
I'm thinking my fellow players might not be so pleased.
The instant they die...turn them into a FLAMING ZOMBIE!!!!
That will show them to lie down and die on the job!
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Also, in Golarion summoned creatures aren't real creatures ripped from some other plane.
They are made out of whole cloth from the spell, and disappear once reduced to 0 HP or their duration expire.
Oh, you used magical energy to conjure an ally that happened to exactly mimic a cruelty demon seems a lot less morally objectionable than you have interrupted this creature's eternal rest by transforming them into your evil deathless slave.
Also
ALIGNMENT ON GOLARION
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Characters using spells with the evil descriptor should consider themselves to be committing minor acts of evil, though using spells to create undead is an even more grievous act of evil that requires atonement.
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Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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Mostly because you are desecrating a once living being. If you want to summon monster flaming skeleton and can do so you probably won't get as much flack as raising a flaming zombie off your buddy's still warm corpse.That's an absolutely AWESOME idea!
I'm thinking my fellow players might not be so pleased.
The instant they die...turn them into a FLAMING ZOMBIE!!!!
That will show them to lie down and die on the job!
It is more than just desecrating the body though. You are actually severing their souls link to the body. It makes it much less likely that they will be able to come back.
It's not one where I would say raise dead is an automatic alignment infraction. But used on a sentient being, you would need to have a good reason.
For the record, I feel the same way about demon / devil summoners. It isn't automatically an alignment infraction, but if there is an evil way to get the job done, that's what they are going to do. And if you don't stop them, your alignment is going to take a hit because you brought them here and set them lose.
After all what did you expect when you summon a creature whose goal is to drag your soul down to hell to feast on it?
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Actually, some of us are just fine slapping a PC with an alignment infraction for killing bystanders or people who are just in the way.
I wasn't talking about bystanders. I'm talking about all the times the PCs decide to kill "bad guys" without checking to make sure there aren't other options first. Plenty of neutral guards who can be intimidated/bribed/tricked/diplomacized away from their posts die every day at PFS tables, because murderhobos go for the violent option without ever considering that their might be another way.
There's one particular season 1 scenario where 2 of the fights are mandatory, but 4 of them can be skipped using diplomacy. I've run that adventure 4 or 5 times, and I don't recall anyone ever talking their way out of any of those fights.
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Thank you all for your thoughts.
I suppose like most things it depends on your subjective perspective. I have several assumptions underpinning my question.
My first assumption is that the animation of the dead with negative energy is an evil act.
My second assumption is that the casting of a summoning spell takes on the alignment of what is being summoned. For Example Summoning a Lantern Archon is a good aligned spell and Summoning a devil/demon, is an evilly aligned spell.
My third assumption is that the casting of an aligned spell is a good/ evil act depending on the spell.
My fourth assumption is that casting of an evil spell is an evil act. Thus Casting Animate dead is an evil act, and the casting of a summoning spell to summoning a devil/demon is also an evil act.
Which led to my question If both animate dead and a summon spell which summons a devil/demon are both evil acts....why then do people get agitated about someone casting an animate dead and animate the corpses of a freshly slain enemy, and not get agitated about the summoning of a devil or demon?
Anyways thank you for your answers. This thread has been a good read. I will continue to read it as people post more thoughts .
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Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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Actually, some of us are just fine slapping a PC with an alignment infraction for killing bystanders or people who are just in the way.I wasn't talking about bystanders. I'm talking about all the times the PCs decide to kill "bad guys" without checking to make sure there aren't other options first. Plenty of neutral guards who can be intimidated/bribed/tricked/diplomacized away from their posts die every day at PFS tables, because murderhobos go for the violent option without ever considering that their might be another way.
There's one particular season 1 scenario where 2 of the fights are mandatory, but 4 of them can be skipped using diplomacy. I've run that adventure 4 or 5 times, and I don't recall anyone ever talking their way out of any of those fights.
I class killing neutral guards (as in not hired by or aligned with the bad guys) under "people who are just in the way"
Maybe our area is out of the ordinary, but even when negotiations break down (which is usually after they have been tried, even if the party just has one person with a +5 diplomacy) a lot of non lethal gets thrown around, and even when lethal does fly, the first thing the party does is try to stabilize people. We even let a group of aspis hired mercs go, because they didn't want to be there any more than we wanted them there.
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I'm surprised no one's brought up the unchained summoner's evil eidolons, all of which are PFS legal. I've got a halfling that summons a literal demon to help him out in fights or with tracking. He even uses it as his trusty steed.
It leads to some pretty interesting roleplay when there's a paladin i. The party.
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I think the lack of controversy around the Unchained Summoner, among with more conventional summoning, is as stated before: the creature is entirely under the summoner's control. More importantly for me, though, is that while evil, demons, devils, and the like are still "natural" entities, while all types of undead necessarily are perversions of the natural order. When you summon an outsider no living creature is necessarily harmed, while the creation of undead is an inherently harmful act whether or not the undead is hostile, or even sentient.
At least, that's my perspective. Besides, our meta information tells us that no PFS character can be of evil alignment, so if a teammate starts summoning Qlippoth or whatever you can rest assured he probably won't tell it to eat you.
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One should not forget that there is a whole nation on Golarion opposed to gods and outsiders of every kind.
Those would be opposed to clerics, paladins, warpriests, inquisitors and probably even many oracles and druids.
For a Rahadoumi, everything holy or unholy is probably worse than undead. It´s outside forces toying with human and nonhuman lives and souls to their pleasure.
So, a Rahadoumi Summoner or Necromancer would be a thing^^
You also have very good reasons and arguments to object the Paladin with his "oh no you can´t do that!". For every supposedly evil thing a necromancer does in the paladins eyes, you can argue that most things the paladin does and his whole life is just as evil in your eyes, since he is serving a god.
All in the game.
My first assumption is that the animation of the dead with negative energy is an evil act.My second assumption is that the casting of a summoning spell takes on the alignment of what is being summoned. For Example Summoning a Lantern Archon is a good aligned spell and Summoning a devil/demon, is an evilly aligned spell.
My third assumption is that the casting of an aligned spell is a good/ evil act depending on the spell.
My fourth assumption is that casting of an evil spell is an evil act. Thus Casting Animate dead is an evil act, and the casting of a summoning spell to summoning a devil/demon is also an evil act.
Which led to my question If both animate dead and a summon spell which summons a devil/demon are both evil acts....why then do people get agitated about someone casting an animate dead and animate the corpses of a freshly slain enemy, and not get agitated about the summoning of a devil or demon?
Just because two things are "[evil]" doesn't mean that they're equivalently bad. Agitation is usually proportional to the perceived degree of badness. Technically speaking, blasphemy (the act, not the spell) is often considered an evil act (in the real world; see the Catholic Canon Law 1369), but few people bat an eye at it, or at worst they consider it inappropriate, but not soul-destroying. When I drop a heavy rock on my foot and yell "Shelyn's t----!," that may indeed be evil, but it's not as bad as the time I poisoned the entire orphanage.
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As someone whose main is (ostensibly) a professional devil-summoner, the basic problem (which has, indeed, come up before) is where does the line between minor, every-day evil acts and major, alignment-infraction inducing evil acts fall.
My understanding is simply that minor acts only incur an alignment-infraction after a long, noticeable pattern of them has occurred. Since this, by its nature, requires a consistent GM who knows the character, and since you cannot guarantee such a thing in PFS, minor evil acts are generally "hand-waved" away, provided you are not blatantly abusing the system. Consequently, only major evil acts tend to get you in trouble as far as the PFS rules are concerned. The debate mainly centers upon the question of which side of the line do specific acts (devil-summoning, undead creation, etc.) fall, and that varies wildly depending on the person in question.
It also depends on the context. Summoning a devil to aid your party in battle is substantially different than summoning a devil to terrorize and exploit the local peasantry (unless, of course, you're going into battle against the local peasantry...).
Basically, it's the GM's call, in most cases.
I recall one bound angel protecting a Lissalan temple. That was a pretty fun encounter.
I heartily agree. My Chelaxian Oracle/Diabolist was the party's "face" in our negotiations with him.
That angel owes me a favor. :D
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I think the lack of controversy around the Unchained Summoner, among with more conventional summoning, is as stated before: the creature is entirely under the summoner's control. .....
With unchained summoners, this is very much not true. The eidolons can refuse instructions from the summoners. Admittedly Most of the will not dos are in the good outsider types ".. they will not brook their powers being used for evil ends."
Though the evil ones include lines like
"Most are capable of seeing the big picture "
or
"Demon eidolons revel in causing destruction and inflicting suffering, and they will do so for their summoners without question, taking pleasure in whatever havoc they can create. For a demon eidolon, the means justify the ends."
or
"..resent having mortal masters, and seek to doom their summoners to existences full of suffering and loss.."
I have on several occasions summoned a babau. You don't want to hug a babau.My brawler quite likes hugging infernals when they're summoned.
They never seem to appreciate it, though.
Perhaps it has something to do with the fact that her whole body counts as good aligned vs DR and does extra damage to evil outsiders?
-j
Sure she does! She's friendly like that.
Plus, the acid slime can't overcome her current energy resistance. :)
-j
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People want to be a victim. It is a power to be recognized (even falsely) victimized by someone. In tabletop RPGS attention is a huge part of the game and begin a victim can get you more. So people find reasons to be offended and victims for the attention and power. Demons and devils are just starting to get attention and i believe you will start to notice people developing offenses from these.
In PFS if this situation worse because there are more people that can not find home games because they have issues and bring those issues to a public game. Also since PFS crowd usually sides with the person claiming offense first, it is an enabler.
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You have a pretty low opinion of PFS. Sorry you have such problems in your area.
It is the nature of the beast. You see this in everyday life as much as PFS.
All it takes is a few people and things go out of hand.
When I ran quest for perfection 3. I had one player being purposely obnoxious because he was tanking diplomacy rolls. So to roleplay it I had the villagers call him a gaijin and be rude back.
One player asked another what that meant. The other player said ti was a rude japanese insult. SO that player stopped the game for 30 minutes to complain about how she offended by the use of that word. That same player does this often.
When i have to fight the polite police for trying to add little things like that it shows some people have a problem as they look for opportunities to be offended.
If you would like evidence of the PFS community supporting these people. I can find you some.
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If you would like evidence of the PFS community supporting these people. I can find you some.
i think for the general statement to be true pfs would have to be more supportive of it than the general population, or at least collectively in support of it, which would be harder to prove without a pol or something
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i think for the general statement to be true pfs would have to be more supportive of it than the general population, or at least collectively in support of it, which would be harder to prove without a pol or somethingIf you would like evidence of the PFS community supporting these people. I can find you some.
In my observations I honestly believe when someone presents a complaint the community to jump to defend it. This is just as common in person as well. Then make decisions to make accommodations to the offended party if they are deserving or not.
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Friendly stating that you are here to run a game and asking the persons in question if they want to play said game or have a discussions works quite good.
If they want to have a discussion, friendly ask them to wait untill you finished the game and point out that you might have some tome and be in the mood to discuss something later, but you can´t promise.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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For something more positive...
I'm blunt and lack tact. Often. But I do keep my PCs in check when I'm playing to not offend people I know would be offended. Including:
If *I* can take those steps to go along to get along, so can everyone else. ;-)