Yeah broad study is really too high level to be worth it except in very specific circumstances ... or gestalt. It's amazing for gestalt.
A third level dip gets you arcana, which could let you spell combat with wands (but not spellstrike?)
This has been debated a lot.
I think the place I settled on is that you could already spellstrike with wands (so they didn't need to include that clause), but it's been so long since I looked into it that I can't really remember what the consensus is, or how qnyone came to their conclusions.
6 levels. Broad study requires magus 6.
Good catch. Well, 6 levels is no longer a dip unless you are going Super-Epic.
Going the other way, you could go Inquisitor VMC Magus and actually be okay, although you don't get Spellstrike until level 11 and never get Spell Combat, so even though Broad Study would be technically legal at level 7, it wouldn't be of any use until level 11, but you don't get a Magus Arcana then from VMC Magus, so it has to wait until level 15 (or level 13 if you are allowed to take Extra Magus Arcana).
Although . . . you could dip 1 level of Phantom Blade Spiritualist to get Spell Combat and then go the rest of the way Inquisitor, with VMC Magus superimposed on the whole thing, and then you could actually make use of Broad Study at Character Level 7. Still, expensive on feats, and you have to wait all the way until Character Level 11 to get Spellstrike, so maybe it would be best to dip 2 levels of Phantom Blade Spiritualist, and then retrain the 2nd of these to another level of Inquisitor when you hit Character Level 11. Probably want Magical Knack as one of your traits if you can get it, then -- although it becomes semi-wasted when you do the retraining, you're going to have 8 levels of Inquisitor with your Caster Level delayed by 2 before it finally goes down to 1.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32
|
What would you think about a multiclass Magus/Inquisitor?
Depends; did you mean Magus with an Inq dip, or Inq with a Magus dip, or equal amounts of Magus/Inq possibly going into Mystic Theurge?
...
Magus with Inq dip, I don't see the point; Inq doesn't do enough in the first few levels to justify delaying Magus features. The reverse, Inq with a Magus dip, I can certainly see working; two levels will give you TWF-equivalent spell combat with a cantrip, or the occasional Shield or Vanish (note that Enlarge cannot be used in SC, although Long Arm can). And basically ignore spellstrike (even with wands) because of your low caster level. Pearls of power may be cheaper than wand wielder plus wands, depending on how long your adventuring days are.
Magus / Inq / Mystic Theurge would be fun, but loses too much unless you can manage early entry (i.e. the feat Equipment Trick: Sunrod). Even better would be Magus 2 / Warpriest 2 / MT.
What do you think of disruptive recall ? Too circumstancial ?
{. . .}
Magus / Inq / Mystic Theurge would be fun, but loses too much unless you can manage early entry (i.e. the feat Equipment Trick: Sunrod). Even better would be Magus 2 / Warpriest 2 / MT.
Mystic Theurge suffers the same problem as the majority of prestige classes applied to 6/9 casters -- the class features are balanced(*) for 9/9 casters, but the spellcasting progression does not compensate for your coming in with a 6/9 spellcasting class, so you still get 6/9 spellcasting progression, but on a d6, 1/2 BAB chassis.
(*)Well, sort of -- at any rate, the idea is there in the design.
As far as I can tell, Pathfinder 2nd Edition just bypasses the problem by replacing prestige classes with feat trees and by not having anything in between innate spellcasting and full 9/9 (10/10?) spellcasting. As far as I know, we have no indication what Paizo is going to do officially with the Magus in 2nd Edition, although reportedly people have posted plausible 2nd Edition conversions of the Magus (haven't yet had the chance to check out in detail just how these would work).
Kirthfinder had the idea of standardized Spell Capacity that would be progressed at a certain rate by whatever classes you were taking levels in, leaving open the possibility (never implemented as far as I know) of a prestige class accelerating the spellcasting progression of a 6/9-casting or even 4/9-casting base class.
PrCs aren’t really...compatible? With most classes? Would it even be broken to house rule “PrCs that add 1 caster level normally instead add 1.5 levels to any spellcasting feature of a 6/9 caster class”? I think that would make PrCs a legitimate option for 6/9 classes, but I think they would still be suboptimal.
They'd be suboptimal in many applications, but I'm pretty sure they'd be broken in many new and interesting ways. e.g. Mesmerists are made to be effective mind-affecting spellcasters using the 6/9 chassis, give them full spellcasting (or something very similar) and they'd be broken IMO.
(Focused class was a great solution to the scaling problem that should had been part of all PRC's and would had made them actually relevant. But of well only 3 classes got that ability.)
Focused class? Do you mean Aligned Class, like in the Evangelist prestige class?
PrCs aren’t really...compatible? With most classes? Would it even be broken to house rule “PrCs that add 1 caster level normally instead add 1.5 levels to any spellcasting feature of a 6/9 caster class”? I think that would make PrCs a legitimate option for 6/9 classes, but I think they would still be suboptimal.They'd be suboptimal in many applications, but I'm pretty sure they'd be broken in many new and interesting ways. e.g. Mesmerists are made to be effective mind-affecting spellcasters using the 6/9 chassis, give them full spellcasting (or something very similar) and they'd be broken IMO.
On the other hand, Mesmerists need their class features other than spellcasting to be fully effective, so if they went into a prestige class that got them accelerated spellcasting progression but left their other abilities stagnant, it would probably balance out overall, although perhaps swinging above or below par at different levels.
If you did this on a Magus, they'd gradually turn into a Wizard as they leveled up in the prestige class, unless the prestige class was a d8, 3/4 BAB prestige class like Hellknight Signifer, in which case they would actually retain a decent chance to hit stuff (although the sting of having to blow a feat on Arcane Armor Training, which is a trap option for a Magus, would still take a while to amortize out).
I do worry that what you're saying may apply to and be hard to fix in 2nd Edition Pathfinder when they try to introduce the Magus, since everybody who casts anything beyond innate spells is a 9/9 caster, and everybody has full BAB.
|
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32
|
What do you think of disruptive recall ? Too circumstancial ?
This feat is simply too unreliable. If you want more spells per day, invest in Pearls of Power or the Extra Arcane Pool feat.
Mystic Theurge suffers the same problem as the majority of prestige classes applied to 6/9 casters
Well, yes. I said Magus/warpriest/MT was fun, not that it was powerful. You to do get to use spell combat and fervor in the same turn, but you end up way behind on things like pool enchantment.
If you want a Magus who gradually turns into a wizard, then instead of a PrC I'd recommend the blade adept.
What would you think about a multiclass Magus/Inquisitor?Depends; did you mean Magus with an Inq dip, or Inq with a Magus dip, or equal amounts of Magus/Inq possibly going into Mystic Theurge?
...
Magus with Inq dip, I don't see the point; Inq doesn't do enough in the first few levels to justify delaying Magus features. The reverse, Inq with a Magus dip, I can certainly see working; two levels will give you TWF-equivalent spell combat with a cantrip, or the occasional Shield or Vanish (note that Enlarge cannot be used in SC, although Long Arm can). And basically ignore spellstrike (even with wands) because of your low caster level. Pearls of power may be cheaper than wand wielder plus wands, depending on how long your adventuring days are.
Magus / Inq / Mystic Theurge would be fun, but loses too much unless you can manage early entry (i.e. the feat Equipment Trick: Sunrod). Even better would be Magus 2 / Warpriest 2 / MT.
I was thinking more to an Inquisitor with some Magus levels. One of my characters is actually a Vigilante Zealot 4/Hexcrafter Magus 6/Evangelist 10 and he’s able to do nearly ANYTHING that can be done by other classes! :P
I was thinking more to an Inquisitor with some Magus levels. One of my characters is actually a Vigilante Zealot 4/Hexcrafter Magus 6/Evangelist 10 and he’s able to do nearly ANYTHING that can be done by other classes! :P
Hm, interesting. Stat block? :-)
Sorry... here it is
^Insufficient file permissions.
Solved, I think.
^It works. Now, which Mythic class is Stranger?
Probably Path of the Stranger, 3rd party supplement
Yup. Also, I added some abilities from Legendary Games' Mythic Manual Handbook (where there's also the Path of the Stranger), and a homebrew obedience for my own campaign's Goddess.
@Kurald Galain
This guide has helped me so much. I jumped into Rise of the Runelords at 9th level and it was a challenge! I think I've finally got the spell combat, spellstrike down. I used the Assault Magus build as a framework for my magus.
Awesome work!
Hey Kurald,
I've been reading your magus guide for the past few days, and I'm about to make a Magus for a game and I was interested in playing a Hexcrafter Bladebound Magus. I've looked at both your Assault Magus and the Maneuver Magus examples. I'm curious if you wouldn't happen to have an idea or example of the two crossed?
I'm not sure if going dex would be too difficult to also fit in with all the feats Assault also needs. I'm a much bigger fan of Frostbite over Shocking Grasp, though I like the idea of debuffing until going in for the kill with a nova. I was planning on going elf, and my DM is giving us three traits at the start though one has to be a Social, Religion, or Family.
My current thoughts are to take a Trait for Frostbite and the other for shocking grasp, continuing normally with Weapon Finesse and Dervish, into Enforcer and Rime but instead of getting Extra Arcana, to get Intensify instead?
If nothing else, I'm just curious how you'd play both Archetypes at the same time in one character. Either way I appreciate all the work you've put in to make a great magus guide over the years and I hope you're staying safe and healthy.
|
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32
|
I've looked at both your Assault Magus and the Maneuver Magus examples. I'm curious if you wouldn't happen to have an idea or example of the two crossed?
You pick some feats/arcana from list one and some from list two. There are very little feats that an assault Magus needs, so he can swap them out. Nor do the sample builds need one specific archetype; for instance, my current maneuver Magus is an eldritch scion, not a hexcrafter.
Just swap out anything in the sample builds for anything rated green or blue in the guide, and you're good.
Btw I would not recommend investing feats/traits in both Frostbite and shocking grasp; just pick the one you like best. HTH.
I've looked at both your Assault Magus and the Maneuver Magus examples. I'm curious if you wouldn't happen to have an idea or example of the two crossed?You pick some feats/arcana from list one and some from list two. There are very little feats that an assault Magus needs, so he can swap them out. Nor do the sample builds need one specific archetype; for instance, my current maneuver Magus is an eldritch scion, not a hexcrafter.
Just swap out anything in the sample builds for anything rated green or blue in the guide, and you're good.
Btw I would not recommend investing feats/traits in both Frostbite and shocking grasp; just pick the one you like best. HTH.
Good to know, I greatly appreciate the help. Stay safe!
Hi all,
Would you agree that Combat Reflexes/Flamboyant Arcana and Aerial Roll is overkill? Seems like the first is more powerful, though curious what others think.
I'm doing the usual toying with builds with ye olde Tiefling Hexblade. I am starting at 8th level, and so intend to retrain Craft Wondrous Item. I would love your help:
1: Weapon Finesse
3: Craft Wondrous Item (Retrain to Spell Penetration?)
4: Hex: Flight
5: Dervish Dance
5: Rime Spell
6: Arcana: Slumber? (a little cheesy for my taste, but powerful)
7: Enforcer
9: Combat Reflexes
9: Arcana: Flamboyant Arcana
11: Lunge?
11: Benthic Spell/Elemental Spell
12: Arcana: Major Hex: Ice Tomb or Spell Blending
13: Quicken Spell
15: Spell Perfection
Is the Hexblade still cool even without cruel?
Other thoughts?
Thank you for your time.
With best wishes,
The Other
|
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32
|
Would you agree that Combat Reflexes/Flamboyant Arcana and Aerial Roll is overkill?
Yes, I would. AR is better defense (because fly checks are easier to optimize and it's free). FA is better offense (because you get a counterattack), but I wouldn't use it with combat reflexes because it just eats pool points.
6: Arcana: Slumber? (a little cheesy for my taste, but powerful)
An alternative is misfortune hex + hex strike feat.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Thank you, sincerely! This last week has been a lot of fun learning about the magus, and most of that is because of your great work.
Alter self is also pretty convenient for accessing a swim speed and the ability to breath underwater. It’s a bit niche, but I’d always want to have one handy, more if doing an underwater mission.
|
It’s not entirely clear that alter self grants extra hands, even if Kasatha or another humanoid has extra limbs. You only get the abilities that the spell says you get. You get the natural attacks of whatever you change into, but the extra limbs aren’t a natural attack.
Now, it’s entirely reasonable for a GM to allow it to give you the extra limbs. It’s also entirely reasonable for them to rule that as an alien race, Kasatha aren’t available for alter self, because having a piece of a Kasatha in every spell component pouch wouldn’t make sense in-game.
Again, there might be another multi-armed humanoid I’m not thinking of. Similarly, though, it’s not going to grant prehensile tail for a Vanara, for example. Though that’s an alternate racial trait, and multi-armed is standard for a Kasatha. I admit there is a difference in the two, which might matter.
I’m not pointing this out to say you absolutely can’t do it, but just because the guide may not be counting on it working.
|
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32
|
Speaking of extra hands, aside from rods, can a strength magus use them to use spell combat while two-handing his weapon?
It strikes me that if you're going to polymorph, a series of extra attacks (e.g. with claws) will do more for you than getting 1.5 times your strength.
Like, with monstrous physique I, you could become a gargoyle and spell combat with claw+claw+claw+spell.
(edit) and yes, as Ferious suggests I wouldn't count on kasatha being known or available in most campaigns; they're pretty exotic.
|
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32
|
As for Monstrous Physique, Alter Self becomes available 3 levels earlier, so that's a pretty significant "use it, then dump it" window at least.
I've doublechecked, and spell combat specifically requires "wielding a light or one-handed melee weapon". So even if Alter Self could give you four arms, you still cannot get the twohanded damage bonus in spell combat. And even if it did, the first-level Frostbite would add more to your damage than Alter Self.
Also, is doing the multi-claw thing really worth giving up your manufactured weapon (along with your weapon's enchants, your iteratives and, most importantly, the weapon's threat range)
At level 7, you do not have any iteratives and not a lot of weapon enchants yet. So this gives you four attacks at +8 instead of two at +10. This assumes the Natural Spell Combat arcana, or foregoing spell combat, but it's a good deal either way.
Alter self is useful for underwater combat at low level. It's not a later game pick.
|
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32
|
Alter self is useful for underwater combat at low level. It's not a later game pick.
Indeed. Well, for accidents I'd just stick a potion of Air Bubble to my bandolier. When prepping for an underwater mission, I'd definitely go for Alter Self (or a higher level polymorph spell).
It’s not entirely clear that alter self grants extra hands, even if Kasatha or another humanoid has extra limbs. You only get the abilities that the spell says you get. You get the natural attacks of whatever you change into, but the extra limbs aren’t a natural attack.
We could use the same argument to argue that Alter Self does not grant any limbs at all, because the spell does not specifically state that it includes limbs.
What we do have comes from the general rules for polymorph:
Each polymorph spell allows you to assume the form of a creature of a specific type
We can either assume that limbs are included in the term "form" or we can assume that polymorph spells don't include limbs at all, because the rules don't say limbs are included.
Personally, I prefer to side with common sense and rule that physical form includes limbs.
It's a problem of that cursed "hands of effort" FAQ. The Kasatha form would have 4 hands, but would it give you 4 "hands"?
|
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32
|
What we do have comes from the general rules for polymorph:
What we also have comes from the general rules for spell combat, i.e. that it requires "wielding a light or one-handed melee weapon". So even if you have four arms, you cannot use a two-handed weapon in spell combat.
What if you held one sword one handed, another sword 2 handed and had another hand free for magic?
Owner - D20 Hobbies
|
It's a problem of that cursed "hands of effort" FAQ. The Kasatha form would have 4 hands, but would it give you 4 "hands"?
The game is written/designed around a PC has 2 hands. Any effect that grants more than 2 hands doesn't allow you more than 2 hands of effort unless it explicitly says so and how.
|
|
It's a problem of that cursed "hands of effort" FAQ. The Kasatha form would have 4 hands, but would it give you 4 "hands"?The game is written/designed around a PC has 2 hands. Any effect that grants more than 2 hands doesn't allow you more than 2 hands of effort unless it explicitly says so and how.
Yeah, that's more or less what I meant. You would have the arms by assuming the form, but Multi-armed is a racial trait that gives you additional off-hands. Alter self only grants specific racial traits, and Multi-armed isn't one of them. Just like you wouldn't get Orc Ferocity by turning into an Orc or a Half-Orc, you don't get Multi-Armed by turning into a Kasatha (even if you have 4 arms).
Multi-Armed: A kasatha has four arms. One hand is considered its primary hand; all others are considered off hands. It can use any of its hands for other purposes that require free hands.
That's the language that lets a Kasatha get around the hands of effort, but without language in alter self stating that it grants Multi-Armed, you don't have the language saying you can use any of your hands for purposes that require free hands.
Two observations from working on a HexBlade (Hexcrafter/Bladebound) Magus:
1) Initiative is great for Rime Frostbite; the debuffing Magus wants to go first.
2) Flamboyant Arcana loves a high initiative, debuffing Magus.
What we do have comes from the general rules for polymorph:What we also have comes from the general rules for spell combat, i.e. that it requires "wielding a light or one-handed melee weapon". So even if you have four arms, you cannot use a two-handed weapon in spell combat.A one-handed weapon can be used two-handed.
With only two hands available and a requirement for a free hand, this is not generally an option. Not because it is precluded by Spell Combat, but because of a physical limitation.
With Monstrous Physique, we have the physical ability to wield a one-handed weapon in two hands, equip a shield, and still have a free hand.
It's a problem of that cursed "hands of effort" FAQ. The Kasatha form would have 4 hands, but would it give you 4 "hands"?The game is written/designed around a PC has 2 hands. Any effect that grants more than 2 hands doesn't allow you more than 2 hands of effort unless it explicitly says so and how.
How many entries in all bestiaries, plus substantial other Paizo published material, would your statement invalidate because they don't specifically state they can use more than two hands.
We come back to my original statement: Polymorph general rules don't include any limbs, and the individual spells don't specifically grant limbs. It we are going to be pedantic, no polymorphed creature has limbs available because the rules do not state they are included.
Or we can apply common sense. We can read the dozens to hundreds of creature stat blocks that demonstrate creatures with multiple limbs can use them without a specific rule in place, we can recognize that the word "form" in the polymorph general rules includes limbs (and the ability to use them), and we can recognize your statement as the pedantic nonsense it is and file it next to the reading of the Dead Condition that points out that Dead creatures are not bared from taking actions.
A DPR calculation for a 9th level Hexcrafter Bladebound Magus vs. CR 12 creature, assuming Spell Combat, 5 ft. step, Spellstrike, no cold or nonlethal immunity or resistance:
Swift action Arcane Pool (1 AP), +5 keen black blade scimitar, haste, blade tutor’s spirit, empowered rime frostbite, free action Black Blade Strike vs. AC 26 = 38.27+38.27+32.71+19.95 = 129.2 DPR (this calculation takes into account the Dexterity penalties from entangled and fatigued)
Swift action Accurate Strike (2 AP), +3 black blade scimitar, haste, blade tutor’s spirit, empowered rime frostbite, free action Black Blade Strike vs. Touch AC 12 = 40.70+40.70+40.70+40.70 = 162.8 DPR
A brief takeaway from this is the value of Accurate Strike and the importance of managing the Magus's Arcane Pool for its use. Relatedly, the average CR 12 creature has 157.6 hit points.
A new observation: Bane Blade essentially renders Accurate Strike obsolete. The Magus is much better served using the two pool points to add bane with all the other enhancements with her swift action, instead of forgoing all of those bonuses to make each attack hit. The AC would have to be extremely high to make Accurate Strike worthwhile, and that seems like too much of a niche case, as Accurate Strike only lasts for one round! Not sure it is worth investing in Accurate Strike if it will become obsolete later on.