@Snowblind: Haha. Good point.
Now, moral dilemmas can be an interesting addition to the roleplaying aspect of playing a Paladin, but I don't think they should be set up with any remote attempt at forcing a fall.
Sure, but as this thread has shown not all consider this to be such a case of forced falling. If the GM who set this up (and assuming the PC is the second paladin, not the redeemed fiend) believes that a paladin does not fall when acting truly upon false information then this is a good scene to tell the paladin Paladin that the code is not everything. The Paladin, while not loosing her powers, might (should?) still feel guilty and then seek to repent (as have been suggested by others in this thread). Which is cool roleplaying.
It should merely be an opportunity for a Paladin's player to role play the character agonizing over the situation to determine the correct course of action. It lets the player more fully flesh out the Paladin's code, motivation, and outlook on life in an in-game setting rather than just with background conceptualization. (Though, not all players are interested in delving that deeply into the roleplaying aspects of the game....)
And those players, paired with a GM who considers moral dilemmas and quandaries to be the most interesting part of the paladin, should perhaps choose a different class.
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Can we at least agree that the paladin should have started the encounter with a grapple?
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In games I've run or been in that have involved paladins (PCs), I've found that no work is generally needed to make a paladin fall. Check which deity they follow, look up the Faiths of... article for the paladin codes, see how well they follow. Visions or dreams sent by their patron could warn them of their faltering path (if they actually are faltering). Players will do enough on their own to test their character's ability to stay on the path, there's no need to make up a scenario to force a fall upon them.
Man, the hypothetical GM is SUCH a douchebag for including a hypothetical redeemed Demon that a hypothetical Paladin SPECIFICALLY SOUGHT OUT to screw with (meaning he had plenty of time to do some research before he got there).
This argument doesn't work because the paladin only heard that there was a fiend in the area and decided to investigate. The rumors he heard didn't say anything about this bullcrap redeemed fiend paladin/PC trap going around healing people.
Anyways the paladin's code wording is ironclad, a paladin cannot be forced to fall by circumstance
The Paladin is overwhelmed with remorse and becomes a potato farmer. The player rolls up a Bloodrager instead because the GM has it in for Paladins.
Man, this thread makes me very happy to be playing with a GM who's really cool and doesn't see it as his life's mission to kill the PCs or screw them out of their class abilities with ridiculously implausible scenarios designed specifically to trap them.
Why go through all this trouble concocting bullcrap scenarios anyway? The GM can just say "Your deity doesn't like you" BAM! Paladin falls.
How is it concocted to have good aligned undead?
Sure his scenerio is a bit of a cornor case but lets look at the Oath Against undead for a moment. The oath SPECIFICALLY CALLS OUTA that they are fully aware that there are good undead. But it also changes THE VERY PALADIN CODE OF CONDUCT so they have to kill all undead they come across. But if such a creature was good aligned (say a guardian to a town or a keeper of history and lore for the village) then that is pretty much murder by most people. Even if it was neutrally aligned and just kinda minded its own business studying the secrets of this mysterious planet for curiosity sake (i.e. scientific curiosity), that would pretty much be murder. But the paladin is now having a weird situation where he HAS to kill it by his code, but if he follows hos own code he will break another part of his code (i.e. perform no evil act and also to be GOOD). So what then?
And this isnt very contrived at all. Maybe the DM made a story around undead (both good and bad) before hand and told his players it will he undead themed, and so a player brought a Oath against Undead Paladin (logically). Unless of course ypu are suggesting we patter to the paladin so much that we shpuls change whole stories so he can actually be playable and never jave any worries ever about hos code...
Non-evil undead has a solution:
Good > Oath
Anyways the paladin's code wording is ironclad, a paladin cannot be forced to fall by circumstance
So you are saying a paladin should never fall temporarily if he accidentally commits evil,no matter how big the evil.
Anyways the paladin's code wording is ironclad, a paladin cannot be forced to fall by circumstanceSo you are saying a paladin should never fall temporarily if he accidentally commits evil,no matter how big the evil.
Code of Conduct: A paladin must be of lawful good alignment and loses all class features except proficiencies if she ever willingly commits an evil act.
Additionally, a paladin's code requires that she respect legitimate authority, act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth), help those in need (provided they do not use the help for evil or chaotic ends), and punish those who harm or threaten innocents.
By core RAW, the paladin only falls for willingly committing an act of evil.
-Nearyn
Queue up the people now wanting to debate the difference between "willingly" and "knowingly."Anyways the paladin's code wording is ironclad, a paladin cannot be forced to fall by circumstanceSo you are saying a paladin should never fall temporarily if he accidentally commits evil,no matter how big the evil.Code of Conduct: A paladin must be of lawful good alignment and loses all class features except proficiencies if she ever willingly commits an evil act.
Additionally, a paladin's code requires that she respect legitimate authority, act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth), help those in need (provided they do not use the help for evil or chaotic ends), and punish those who harm or threaten innocents.
By core RAW, the paladin only falls for willingly committing an act of evil.
-Nearyn
-Nearyn
Non-evil undead has a solution:
Good > Oath
Except that Oath Modifies his Code of Conduct
Destroy all undead. Put to rest the poor souls turned against their will. Prevent the taint of undeath from spreading to the newly dead, blessing or burning the corpses as necessary.
So to not kill an undead is a violation of his oath as well.
And it is not contrieved aftwr all
A paladin with this oath vows to restore the natural state of death to any animate corpse she encounters, and destroy the undead energy in the process. While a few paladins who take this oath recognize that not all undead are evil, others are quite willing to purge neutral and good undead along with all the evil ones.
So these guys are essentially racist...
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In my example the paladin thought the guards must be Charmed as well and so are no longer legitimate authority he had to obey.
The standard paladin code is still in effect, and the "no commit evil" supersedes anything else the final code commands.
Then Oath against Undead is horribly written.
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Also, lets all not forget about this: Should the Paladin Fall?
With the number 1 question being:
1: Did you warn him?
Based on the OP's post, the answer is no. So the paladin definitely doesn't fall because the player wasn't warned of the possible consequences of his actions. Since the GM gets to arbitrarily decide was is and isn't good or evil, and the player cannot know what the GM thinks in all cases, a player may differ to their own opinion. The problem arises when players and GMs have differing opinions. If the GM does not tell a player that such an act is evil, then the Gm should not punish the player for not having the same way of thinking regarding good and evil.
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The paladin does not fall, or the GM is a t*#~ who set up a trap.
It's not a trap.
I'm sorry, but a player explicitly chose to play a class that exemplifies "good guy", then didn't bother to do any investigation in a non-hostile circumstance before taking a life... didn't get trapped, they chose wrong.
A good guy takes the time to ask some questions if there isn't open conflict. A paladin of 5th-level has access to detect charm, for instance.
Take the succubus into custody, investigate, and act appropriately. detect evil is not an excuse to just open up and make things die. It's merely one bit of evidence to assist a paladin in evaluating a circumstance.
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smite first ask later pally with Oath against Chaos i can see this guy walking around killing a lot of chaotic good people.
Yes. And...? He's a servant of law and order, not of good. That's the point of the Oath against Chaos. Abadar isn't a good god. He's a god of law and order.
The paladin does not fall, or the GM is a t*#~ who set up a trap.It's not a trap.
I'm sorry, but a player explicitly chose to play a class that exemplifies "good guy", then didn't bother to do any investigation in a non-hostile circumstance before taking a life... didn't get trapped, they chose wrong.
A good guy takes the time to ask some questions if there isn't open conflict. A paladin of 5th-level has access to detect charm, for instance.
Take the succubus into custody, investigate, and act appropriately. detect evil is not an excuse to just open up and make things die. It's merely one bit of evidence to assist a paladin in evaluating a circumstance.
Sorry, but no.
Presented scene: beautiful woman in middle of healing room, with dead bodies (and newly raised ones), along with her adoring fans. Woman returns to succubus form as paladin enters (kinda iffy, honestly), presenting the image of a stereotypical succubus charming and joking everyone.
Remember, Paladins are prepared casters.
Should he have fallen just because he didn't prepare Detect Charm in, like, the one spell slot he has or whatever?
No.
This was pretty obviously a "screw you, I hate paladins" trap.
Just like all the rest of situations like this.
If some paladins starts slaughtering CG people, other Paladins are going to come and confront him...
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Calling all Ackbars.. Repeat... Calling all Ackbars. A paladin thread has been detected in this quadrant. Sound the alarm!
smite first ask later pally with Oath against Chaos i can see this guy walking around killing a lot of chaotic good people.Yes. And...? He's a servant of law and order, not of good. That's the point of the Oath against Chaos. Abadar isn't a good god. He's a god of law and order.
Wrong, a Paladin is ALWAYS a servant of Good first. Oath against Chaos still has Aura of Good, Aura of Faith (attacks are Good-aligned) and DR/Evil, the Order of Good ability lets him use smite Evil, and the oath comes with the caveat of the Law to be Just.
Also Abadar while being LN is still rather benevolent (look at the spells named after him) and he's not Good only because he's more willing to put up with some Evil in order to further civilization, but he's one of the few LN (maybe the only depending how do you count Irori) deities to officially sponsor a Paladin order.
Oath against Chaos Paladins are more Lawful than other paladins but they're not Hellknights.
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The paladin does not fall, or the GM is a t*#~ who set up a trap.It's not a trap.
I'm sorry, but a player explicitly chose to play a class that exemplifies "good guy", then didn't bother to do any investigation in a non-hostile circumstance before taking a life... didn't get trapped, they chose wrong.
A good guy takes the time to ask some questions if there isn't open conflict. A paladin of 5th-level has access to detect charm, for instance.
Take the succubus into custody, investigate, and act appropriately. detect evil is not an excuse to just open up and make things die. It's merely one bit of evidence to assist a paladin in evaluating a circumstance.
Sorry, but no.
Presented scene: beautiful woman in middle of healing room, with dead bodies (and newly raised ones), along with her adoring fans. Woman returns to succubus form as paladin enters (kinda iffy, honestly), presenting the image of a stereotypical succubus charming and joking everyone.
Remember, Paladins are prepared casters.
Should he have fallen just because he didn't prepare Detect Charm in, like, the one spell slot he has or whatever?No.
This was pretty obviously a "screw you, I hate paladins" trap.
Just like all the rest of situations like this.
Again,how is a good undead a trap? Again, lets say the GM already already written out the story and everything and a player happens to show up with an Oathbound Oath Against Undead Paladin since it just makes sense (since the BBEG was say a necromancer and the group was told that much ahead of time).
Unless youbare suggestin that if a Paladin ever shows up at a table, the GM is mandated to do a comb over his whole story just to cater to the Paladin. That is an example of a broken class/archetype. And the funny thing, the OATH SPECIFICALLY MENTIONS THAT MANY OF THEM KNOW THERE ARE GOOD UNDEAD AND DONT GIVE A RATS ASS.
Most of the oaths are piss poorly written. For.instance, the oath against dragons. You are only bound to slay evil dragons but you are also bound to stop the "taint of dragons entering other races blood" i.e. stop half dragons and such. But, what if say, a silver dragon fell in love with a human while walking around in human form? He bound to stop them from being together. It is straight racism...
Or the oath of vengence? You ARE BOUND BY YOUR CODE TO NOT LET LESSER EVILS STOP YOU FROM SEEKING VENGENCE. I.e. you cant let breaking and entry stopping you from pursuing a person. But is he ever commits ANY EVIL ACT he loses his paladin powers...
What if the demon were actually evil and immediately killed a bunch of townsfolk because the paladin hesitated and tried to investigate? Would the paladin fall for not protecting innocents?
Seems like a no-win trap situation for the paladin to me.
He paladin would not fall. He didn't kill a anyone. Being outsmarted doesn't make you fall.
He paladin would not fall. He didn't kill a anyone. Being outsmarted doesn't make you fall.What if the demon were actually evil and immediately killed a bunch of townsfolk because the paladin hesitated and tried to investigate? Would the paladin fall for not protecting innocents?
Seems like a no-win trap situation for the paladin to me.
Letting innocents die because you stood around not protecting them seems like an evil act to me.
If it were a hezrou, nabassu, or babau instead who was in the midst of the townsfolk, would you still demand that the paladin take time to investigate the demon?
If the townsfolk aren't actively being harmed and the townsfolk are not seemingly scared of the demon, then yes. At least a demand of surrender. A good aligned demon would comply and then explain themselves.
Excep they cant...oath against fiends mandate they destroy all evil outsiders.
This is why i dislike a lot of the oaths... they actually limit roleplay because they require stupid stereotypes to even work (dragons are monsters! Undead are all evil! Chaos is destruction and mayham!)
The Nabassu is standing in a pile of bodies. For all you know, he's killed a bunch of villagers and turned them into undead. And if you spend time trying to get it to surrender or try to investigate it, it might kill off the rest of the villagers while you're tying to negotiate.
In the actual scenario, townsfolk not being scared of the demon isn't any sort of evidence since an evil succubus could've easily have charmed them all.
True for Succubus. But true for babau or others? Not a chance. Non-succubi demons don't have the patience.
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If it requires a thread to decide if the Paladin falls, then the GM falls.
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Remember, Paladins are prepared casters.
Should he have fallen just because he didn't prepare Detect Charm in, like, the one spell slot he has or whatever?
In my example the paladin thought the guards must be Charmed as well and so are no longer legitimate authority he had to obey.
Again, Sense Motive.
Though I do think it was a trap regardless of what the paladin/player had access to and could have done.
True for Succubus. But true for babau or others? Not a chance. Non-succubi demons don't have the patience.The Nabassu is standing in a pile of bodies. For all you know, he's killed a bunch of villagers and turned them into undead. And if you spend time trying to get it to surrender or try to investigate it, it might kill off the rest of the villagers while you're tying to negotiate.
In the actual scenario, townsfolk not being scared of the demon isn't any sort of evidence since an evil succubus could've easily have charmed them all.
Even assuming that's true (glabrezu and incubi among others certainly could have the patience), how would the paladin know that? The paladin with his very few skill points probably doesn't have a high knowledge planes roll and even if he does might roll low on the skill check.
As a paladin, his first thought should be in protecting the innocent. NOT protecting innocents should get him to fall faster than trying to win a guessing game with the DM.
Since the paladin with low skill points doesn't really know what they are, is he smiting them just because they look "evil"? That is a dangerous modus operandi. It even giving the 6 seconds for the other side to say, "I come in peace"! Remember this paladin has no idea what the other dude is because he doesn't have the knowledge ranks. Never say "demons are unlikely to be redeemed" because he failed the knowledge.
In my example the paladin thought the guards must be Charmed as well and so are no longer legitimate authority he had to obey.And that in itself is b!%*%!&+, a Paladin who is essentially saying screw you to all chaos should follow any law someone has him follow, even if they do not represent a recognized law, unless he believes they are asking him to break his oaths, this would include reviving the other paladin, or committing evil, but not repenting or facing justice.
If he says "I am the law, you are not" he is essentially advocating Chaos, not Law.
Umm what? He is empowered by Abadar to represent law. Judge Dredd was totally lawful, al wit evil.
Umm what? He is empowered by Abadar to represent law. Judge Dredd was totally lawful, al wit evil.In my example the paladin thought the guards must be Charmed as well and so are no longer legitimate authority he had to obey.And that in itself is b!%*%!&+, a Paladin who is essentially saying screw you to all chaos should follow any law someone has him follow, even if they do not represent a recognized law, unless he believes they are asking him to break his oaths, this would include reviving the other paladin, or committing evil, but not repenting or facing justice.
If he says "I am the law, you are not" he is essentially advocating Chaos, not Law.
But that is more of a hellknight, not a Paladin... Hell knight pretty much has an alignment LL... the paladin is still G...
How does he know it's a demon? No knowledge ranks in Planes remember?