what happens when one's Oath conflicts possibly with the general paladin code?
Am example (if unusual) situation:
A redeemed succubus (paladin of Sarenrae. Detects as good, evil, chaos, and law) is in the local region, having heard that recently a fiend has been through this area, causing much death and destruction. She specializes in healing, has lots of Lay on Hands, has the Ultimate Mercy feat (spend LoH and take negative level to raise dead for free), and even has a way to recharge her LoH during the day. She spends time and effort healing the injured and raising the dead, even eventually revealing her true nature to the local village leaders. The local leaders accept her after some initial fear. One day a large number of dead were brought in, and the succubus starts raising them one after another, taking negative level after negative level. After raising enough villagers to have almost enough negative levels to kill her, the strain causes her to lose her humanoid form temporarily, no she reverts back into her true form.
Meanwhile, another paladin, A paladin of Abadar who has taken the Oath against Chaos and Oath against Fiends, has heard about fiend activity in the area, and came to investigate. He walks into the local healing house where a large group of people seem to be watching something, entranced. In the middle of it all he sees a beautiful woman...but wait she suddenly shifts into s Succubus! A fiend! Of the CHAOTIC subtype! No questions asked, he wins initiative, smites, and kills the weakened Succubus in one hit. The local villagers now appear angry. Why would they do that? He just saved them from s demon! Obviously they have been charmed by the demon earlier. He doesn't believe anything that the villagers say (dumped Wis), and ignores the orders from the town guard to stand down and be arrested for trial. He instead knocks them out with non-lethal damage, and decides the next step is go back to his paladin order and get some backup as to cure all these people of being charmed.
So, what should happen to the paladin of Abadar? His patron deity isn't particularly good, and he has sworn to oppose chaos. Does Abadar still take away his paladin powers?
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I would not have the Paladin fall.
My hands are already aflame and my mind melting; I don't have the stomach or fortitude for these threads these days.
*Flees*
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These threads certainly do get old. OP, I'll give you the same advice I give every other GM when there's a paladin in the group: playing a paladin is NOT a trap, and doesn't mean the player becomes the GM's b*tch. Paladins are not omnipotent or omniscient, they are simply warriors who follow a code of honor.
Was the paladin character aware that the succubus in question was redeemed? Doesn't sound like it. Are redeemed fiends exceedingly common? Probably not. Was the paladin acting in what he thought was everyone's best interest? Sounds like it. In summary, no the paladin shouldn't fall. Hell, he shouldn't even get a slap on the wrist. He acted appropriately BASED ON THE INFORMATION HE HAD. Nobody ever said paladins are perfect, that's why there's a difference between a paladin and a god.
So basically smite first and ask questions later is generally fine against evil outsiders in your opinion? Even against one offering no violence?
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I wouldn't have the paladin fall, but I would require penance.
I use the due diligence standard for paladins, which means that they don't fall for not having all the information unless they should have realized they needed more information - unless they're being careless or stupid.
Redeemed fiends are in most settings extremely rare. It's not unreasonable to assume that any given fiend is up to no good, even when there is no obvious sign of evil intent. This is particularly the case with succubi, fiends that are known for being subtle. Note also that the paladin is responding to reports of fiendish mayhem. He might have drawn the wrong conclusion, but it's not a stupid one. It's also not feasible for this paladin, acting alone, to verify the situation. An evil succubus certainly would be capable of winning over the townsfolk between charm and astronomical social skills, and most paladins are short on investigative skills. Compare an inquisitor who should be able to detect charm effects and the succubus' good aura.
However, this is a significant injustice and the paladin is obligated to remedy it once the situation becomes clear (presumably once he returns with better-equipped backup). Failing to take responsibility for your mistakes is dishonourable, and in this situation I would also describe a lack of regret as evil even if the initial act wasn't.
I would suggest requiring the paladin to find a way to return the succubus paladin to life (a limited wish spell, at least) and then performing one service at her bequest, such as redeeming a tiefling.
If he did not have those Oaths would the judgement be any different?
Does really Charm work that way?
Also: did really the Paladin not see the holy symbol of Sarenrae?
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Does really Charm work that way?
Also: did really the Paladin not see the holy symbol of Sarenrae?
Nothing prevents an evil creature from carrying around holy symbols of all the Good gods.
I'm not sure what you are asking regarding the charm. As for the holy symbol, in theory a demon could have it as part of a disguise. It's not like holy symbols harm demons like they may harm some undead.
Davor: no magic told him to. He did it because he swore sacred oaths to his deity to destroy chaos and fiends.
A redeemed succubus (paladin of Sarenrae.
Detects as good, evil, chaos, and law)......
I do not think this is correct.....never saw a rule about a four letter alignment!Nor do I think the smite would even work.
A creature with an Alignment subtype (in this case Chaos and Evil) counts as that alignment for detection and any other effect regardless of the actual alignment of the creature.
Thus a LG Demon can be still detected as Evil and Chaotic and can be hit by anything that can affect those alignments.
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No I wouldn't have him fall.
But he should learn of his mistake and make it up to the succubus and the people.
It should probably start with paying to have the succubus resurrected and then performing some penance for her. It should also involve some sort of lesson about thinking more before you act.
Note there appears to be precedent that says you won't have a chaotic evil good lawful aura on one entity. The only canonical redeemed succubus that I know of loses the evil subtype as soon as she stops being evil.
PS: I'd say he's an ex-paladin, at least until he seeks redemption and atonement. I wouldn't make it too hard, though - I'd even let an atonement re-paladinize him, conditional on getting either the succubus restored to life, or gaining the forgiveness of Sarenrae for ending the life of a living miracle.
What kind of magic can even raise an outsider from the dead? So you need a True Res? Assume that in the short term, the paladin is unable to gain access to such magics. Meanwhile, there are all the dead villagers that the succubus was supposed to raise...
Note there appears to be precedent that says you won't have a chaotic evil good lawful aura on one entity. The only canonical redeemed succubus that I know of loses the evil subtype as soon as she stops being evil.
Anyway this is the reason why I never dump mental stats in my Paladins and why I think you should be able to cast Detect Good too
Anyway this is the reason why I never dump mental stats in my Paladins and why I think you should be able to cast Detect Good too
For my home games I replaced Detect Evil ability of Paladin's with the Detect Alignment ability of Inquisitors, with the ability to still move action detect any one of the alignments on the target.
Inquisitors can only detect one alignment at a time right? So the paladin still might've just saw the evil aura and start smiling anyways (assuming he leads with detecting evil).
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I'm torn on the 'recharge LoH during the day?'
Ultimate Mercy is pretty awesome, but it uses up 10 Lay on Hands to use, and the negative level is temporary coming back after 24 hours. My Paladin needed to be level 13 before he could claim it.
I don't see how you are mechanically working this... or how 'the strain caused her to shift forms'...
So really, this scenario seems like a blatant trap.
For my part, yes. If there is an Paladin sworn to destroy evil and chaotic outsiders... and the DM puts an outsider detecting as Evil/chaotic... then yes. By his god's decree he is supposed to smite it.
The idea is that Fiends have no place on the material realm. they are composed of solid evil. Even if one's 'soul' is redeemed... it's still their base nature to be evil.
She should have showed more caution in her raising. Raise Dead is allowed a day per caster level... so she didn't need to raise EVERYONE at this EXACT moment... using what had to be what?? 90+ LoH?? Probably more depending on what level the succubus was??
I'm torn on the 'recharge LoH during the day?'
Ultimate Mercy is pretty awesome, but it uses up 10 Lay on Hands to use, and the negative level is temporary coming back after 24 hours. My Paladin needed to be level 13 before he could claim it.
I don't see how you are mechanically working this... or how 'the strain caused her to shift forms'...
So really, this scenario seems like a blatant trap.
For my part, yes. If there is an Paladin sworn to destroy evil and chaotic outsiders... and the DM puts an outsider detecting as Evil/chaotic... then yes. By his god's decree he is supposed to smite it.
The idea is that Fiends have no place on the material realm. they are composed of solid evil. Even if one's 'soul' is redeemed... it's still their base nature to be evil.
She should have showed more caution in her raising. Raise Dead is allowed a day per caster level... so she didn't need to raise EVERYONE at this EXACT moment... using what had to be what?? 90+ LoH?? Probably more depending on what level the succubus was??
Mythic tier 3 is just one example. With an hour's rest a paladin can regain all per day abilities, including LoH uses. Between a high charisma score and Bracelets of Mercy, I've had level 9 Paladins take Ultimate Mercy.
Perhaps the succubus could see how much pain the loved ones of the dead are feeling, so she chooses to sacrifice her own life force in order to speed the return of the dead. Yknow...a self-sacrificing good act that a paladin might do. She would've been fine the next day.
Mythic tier 3 is just one example. With an hour's rest a paladin can regain all per day abilities, including LoH uses. Between a high charisma score and Bracelets of Mercy, I've had level 9 Paladins take Ultimate Mercy.
Perhaps the succubus could see how much pain the loved ones of the dead are feeling, so she chooses to sacrifice her own life force in order to speed the return of the dead. Yknow...a self-sacrificing good act that a paladin might do. She would've been fine the next day.
Well... from the legends I've seen floating around about Mythic, I'm even more curious how a mythic tier 3 died so quickly O.O
Well, in theory, double damage on the first hit from a smite, a much less robust health pool thanks to negative levels. If that's not enough a lucky crit will ensure death. Remember smite bypasses all DR.
Inquisitors can only detect one alignment at a time right? So the paladin still might've just saw the evil aura and start smiling anyways (assuming he leads with detecting evil).
Yes, but with a paladin know that he has the ability to detect more than evil may make him slightly more cautious, and since he could theoretically use the move detect version twice in a single round (converting his standard to a move) he could determine whether the target detected as evil or good or both or neither.
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Well, in theory, double damage on the first hit from a smite, a much less robust health pool thanks to negative levels. If that's not enough a lucky crit will ensure death. Remember smite bypasses all DR.
yeah, but I'd heard you needed to be Mythic to hurt Mythic or some such thing...
Doesn't really matter.
I still say that IF Abadar allows the smite to work... And if the Double dose of Oaths were also based on Abadar... and the Paladin used his God-given abilities to fulfill his god given oaths... I don't see that god punishing him for it. If anything both Abadar and the Paladin should be shocked at what it was... and agree to be more careful in the future. And then Abadar should no longer power something as widespread as an 'Oath against Fiends'.
Here's another question? What was the 'evil act' he has supposedly done? Was it killing the Fiend? Or Was it ATTACKING the Fiend? If the act of Attacking before he knew the truth was an evil act, then he should have immediately fallen. The Smite should not have worked.
The act of falling should not be dependent on if this redeemed Fiend is dead at -12 or unconscious and stable at -11...
If the paladin were to (temporarily) fall, it'd be for attacking without sufficient investigation beforehand.
As for the exact moment the abilities goes away, there is a lot of leeway in that. Artistic license should reign here. Makes better story for The scene and has more emotional impact for a wrongful smite to murder someone dead.
Can the paladin lose paladin powers even with Abadar approving of his actions?
If the paladin were to (temporarily) fall, it'd be for attacking without sufficient investigation beforehand.
As for the exact moment the abilities goes away, there is a lot of leeway in that. Artistic license should reign here. Makes better story for The scene and has more emotional impact for a wrongful smite to murder someone dead.
Can the paladin lose paladin powers even with Abadar approving of his actions?
Like everything else on the Forums, that is often debated. Personally, I believe that the deities are integral and are the ones bestowing the powers... and the original post asked 'Does Abadar still take away the paladin's powers'
So basically it's DM call. Artistic license is running rampant over this scenario, so it should probably still apply.
If the DM thinks that Abadar is responsible for granting the powers.... and that Abadar is the one taking them away... and he actually approves of the actions, then why would he take them away? If it's the Paladin's self confidence granting the powers then... why bother with the oaths to Abadar in the first place. His will is reduntant.
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The GM clearly has it out for this Paladin. What the Paladin does is irrelevant; falling is only a matter of time.
Also, if Abadar didn't approve, why is he granting bonus smite damage against somebody who isn't evil?
The GM clearly has it out for this Paladin. What the Paladin does is irrelevant; falling is only a matter of time.
Also, if Abadar didn't approve, why is he granting bonus smite damage against somebody who isn't evil?
Gods do not micromanage the use of the powers they grant. They grant those powers and trust their agents to use them to advance their priorities.
The Paladin can smite the Succubus Paladin simply for the way his power works. The exact same thing holds true for the Anti-Paladin.
That line of thinking gets dangerous too. The god granted power detected her as chaotic (just noticed this paladin can't even detect evil...) the god granted power is what let me smite her... The oaths made to Abadar were to destroy any Chaotic Fiends...
At that point it's really saying this is ABADAR's fault. I want you to kill chaotic fiends... Here's something to detect them, here's something to kill them...
WHAT DID YOU DO!?!?!?
Flavor text with Oath against Fiends is this...
A paladin who takes an oath against demons, devils, daemons, and other evil outsiders is constantly on the lookout for malicious fiendish insurgence into the world, and faces it with swift and unwavering defiance
Swift and unwavering. Honestly, I think 'Oath against Chaos' is a ridiculous thing to give to a Paladin. Paladins should NOT be able to smite CG things... It's kind of mind boggling to me... but whatever. That's a different debate. As a legitimate Paizo Paladin option... This Paladin did what he was supposed to do, by the rules in front of him...
I don't even think the redeemed Succubus would take offense to it. Ohhhh... you saw something that is evil and capabale of incredible danger?? Yeah, I'd have smited it too.
That line of thinking gets dangerous too. The god granted power detected her as chaotic (just noticed this paladin can't even detect evil...) the god granted power is what let me smite her... The oaths made to Abadar were to destroy any Chaotic Fiends...
At that point it's really saying this is ABADAR's fault. I want you to kill chaotic fiends... Here's something to detect them, here's something to kill them...
WHAT DID YOU DO!?!?!?
Flavor text with Oath against Fiends is this...
A paladin who takes an oath against demons, devils, daemons, and other evil outsiders is constantly on the lookout for malicious fiendish insurgence into the world, and faces it with swift and unwavering defianceSwift and unwavering. Honestly, I think 'Oath against Chaos' is a ridiculous thing to give to a Paladin. Paladins should NOT be able to smite CG things... It's kind of mind boggling to me... but whatever. That's a different debate. As a legitimate Paizo Paladin option... This Paladin did what he was supposed to do, by the rules in front of him...
You do have a point. And perhaps the Oath against Chaos muddles the main point a bit (I sort of agree with you the Oath is a bit off for Paladins).
Let's simplify the scenario a little bit. The paladin is a paladin of Iomedae (who doesn't like Fiends, I'm sure). The paladin only has an Oath against Fiends. The rest of the scenario plays out as described before.
How does the paladin reconcile the competing duties he has? His Oath says "Never suffer an evil outsider to live if it is in your power to destroy it." However, his paladin code of conduct requires him to protect the innocent (indeed he must find and punish those who hurt innocents). The succubus, at this point in time, counts as an innocent (or she wouldn't qualify to be a paladin herself).
So, how should he decide how to satify both duties? Oh and of course there's a (perceived) time pressure. If the fiend is a threat, then he must act QUICKLY too or others could be harmed by his delay.
I don't even think the redeemed Succubus would take offense to it. Ohhhh... you saw something that is evil and capabale of incredible danger?? Yeah, I'd have smited it too.
The succubus would very likely forgive him soon after she is brougth back to life, and use this as a teachable moment to everyone involved (even the villagers) on a lesson on not judging a book by its cover.
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So basically smite first and ask questions later is generally fine against evil outsiders in your opinion? Even against one offering no violence?
Arguments like this are why I never play Paladins unless I have absolute trust in the GM. You're a holy warrior crusading against demons and devils and you walk into a building and see a devil in the middle of a group of innocent people. Are you telling me you're actually going to stop and have a conversation with the freaking devil?? Absolutely not. You act aggressively and immediately to protect those innocents from the fiend who's undoubtedly there to prey on them.
This scenario is a prime example of those tedious "HA! Gotcha!" tricks that adversarial GMs pull to take down paladin PCs cause they think it's dramatic or whatever.
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So what you are saying is that Abadar sees his paladin is about to attack a demon paladin and despite thinking it is wrong for his agent to do that keeps powering the paladin. THEN, when the LG succubus is already dead, he takes the paladin's powers away?
Where does it say they don't/can't micromanage?If they don't micromanage how would a god know his paladin violated the code BUT doesn't know when to stop the paladin before s/he does something wrong with his/er powers?
The reason they don't micromanage is to keep the agency (and the responsibility) on the player for his/her own actions. Unlike the gods who are very circumscribed in both the actions they take and the perceptions they have, the player characters are the agents with free will. So they don't have the Nuremburg style "My god made me do it" defense.
This is shown by the fact that Sarenrae is still granting powers to the Qadirans who conquer in her name even though they violate her tenets almost constantly. And in how "Death's Heretic" Pharasma continued to answer the prayers and grant spells to her increasingly apostate cleric while she sent the title character as her agent to deal with him if he did not learn the error of his ways.
The relevant question to ask also is: Do Gods power paladins? Or does the objective Force of Good power paladins? Remember Paladins do NOT have to follow a deity.
Might Sarenrae and Iomedae disgree over what "Good" is? Might they disagree with the Force of Good on what is acceptable?
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Davor: no magic told him to. He did it because he swore sacred oaths to his deity to destroy chaos and fiends.Even worse. He's basically waged a genocidal war against all creatures of a type, whether evil or good, and then killed an innocent.
He falls.
Totally invalid argument. He swore an oath to battle fiends, all of whom are evil by definition; that's why they're considered "evil outsiders", the word evil is right there in the type. Not only is it ok to genocide fiends, it's practically mandatory for an oathbound paladin.
Plus, let's be honest, the scenario was a trap designed to ruin that particular character. It wasn't realistic, fair or even feasible.
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Well, first, this sounds VERY much like a GM trap meant solely to cause an argument. That aside, you said she reverted due to fatigue of LoH and level drain... he saw a woman currently in the act of using LoH, and ability and posture he should know first (lay on)hand. A flash of positive energy and a healed body suddenly before her, and then she reverted form... a still, once motionless form before her now stirring. Context clues says ask more question before smiting. Barring all that though, There was zero reason to detect alignment, attack on sight is basically the right of all Paladins in the presence of Demons and Devils... final verdict, have the Paladin... roll a new class since the GM is a butt.
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Honestly if the succubus detected as evil and smite was working on her then she is not innocent.
This.
What is the working definition of 'innocent'? Has this succubus NEVER done ANYTHING to harm another person? Saranrae forgave her and put her to work... but if she's still detecting and composed of the stuff of evil... then innocent isn't really on the table.
The Paladin did not smite because she was killing people... or had burned an orphanage. The Paladin with an Oath against Fiends... killed her because she was a Fiend. And she was 100% guilty of that.
In a world where Fiends are redeemable, the Paladin should either A) not be allowed to take 'genocide against potentially good things) or B) Be able to detect which ones aren't bound by his oath (hmmmm it looks like a fiend, but I've never seen that golden glow around it...)
Oath Against XXXXXX and powered by the forces of 'good' is only really viable in a world where Paladins are doing 'good' by enforcing said oath.
Here's a question. What should he have done instead? Sat down and had a conversation with it? It is a creature made from Evil and Chaos... It is known to be an exquisite liar. Seriously, +27 bluff, +19 diplomacy... It's main attacks are Charm (which the paladin is immune to and Compulsion spells (which he is NOT until after 17th level)
What would they say? What would you believe?
When learning about Succubi, the first thing they would have been taught would be 'Don't let them talk to you!!'
Is he supposed to do this to EVERY Evil Outsider he comes across or just the pretty ones?
There comes a point where the Paladin stops fighting evil and is just Lawful Stupid...
How many times would the DM throw a situation like this at you and make you look stupid for NOT rolling initative and just letting them surprise round on you?
It's really a trap either way you handle it.