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Its for similar reasons that yes I roll my eyes when people self congratulate themselves for earning their first or second star (Im about 2-3 scenarios off my first), as if seeking acclaim for gming a game. Sure running a game can be difficult and time consuming but again if you are doing it because you are forced to do it, or because you might win a prize or that you want to impress someone playing in your game then you are really doing it for all the wrong reasons.
So while I am a huge "To Each Their Own" about rewards.. I will say that while running 2 or 3 sessions is easy, running 20, 60, or even 100 is not. It is expensive, time-consuming and many days incredibly exhausting. I would like something, even if it is a small email saying: "Hey Thanks!" Because it at least showcases that someone does respect my time and work as a part of this big organization.
Unfortunately, there are many in our organization who think that GM's are supposed to be there, and do not properly thank their GM's for their time and hard work. I have had players whom have never said thank you, even when I go above and beyond the call of duty to make a game happen for them. Does this make them bad people? No. But it doesn't help the cause.
There are also some groups who live really far away from each other. Like their nearest VL/VC could be HOURS. So many times, GM's and even organizers can feel the loneliness and that they are doing what they are doing without gratefulness. So a thank you, even just a small email, can go a long way to keeping GM's/Organizers in the game.
Like I said, they don't have to be boons or prizes. But there should be *something* for our time, energy and money.
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I agree with Lady Ophelia completely. I have had people demand a game. I print out two sets of the scenario, I draw two sets of maps, I bring food in, and I have had 9 other people show up and the groups that ends up playing by shaming the other people to not play VS GM a second table that I have the materials already prepared for them. Then grumble at me that I am out to kill them because they played up, eat my food and leave. Keep in my mind no one died and the player that came very close did somethign stupid I stopped the game and gave him a moment to do something else but insisted.
I ran that game espcially for my friend Rick, and if he were not there I would have just grabbed my stuff and went home.
It taught me when I run games it is for a select group of people that help me play and appreciate me. Not the public that are like wolves about the game.
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357 tables later have I seen a player demand a game? Yep, been there. more than once. My response. I'm a volunteer and I choose to not volunteer for you, please leave my table and don't let the door hit you on the way out.
You want prizes and gifts and boons. Come to SCARAB (or some other convention or large event) and volunteer to be a GM for me. That kind of stuff is best kept locally and not at the corporate (Paizo) level. Paizo already does a lot more than people realize to support this community. I really don't like that some folks feel entitled to more than a hearty thanks from the players they entertain.
I do it for the fun of it and nothing more. Can it be expensive, yep. Time consuming, absolutely. Do gamers act in-grateful, sometimes.
Between January and June of this year I and my volunteers will have driven 8000+ miles and run over 1100 hours of games. We don't ask for anything and we don't expect it.
But I love it and get more out of GMing than just credit to a character. You want something for your time, energy and money. How about smiles, thanks and making new friends; that's what gaming is all about to begin with. That's why I do what I do, its not for the 'stuff'.
I don't need any rewards or stars or anything else to remind me of that.
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Its for similar reasons that yes I roll my eyes when people self congratulate themselves for earning their first or second star (Im about 2-3 scenarios off my first), as if seeking acclaim for gming a game. Sure running a game can be difficult and time consuming but again if you are doing it because you are forced to do it, or because you might win a prize or that you want to impress someone playing in your game then you are really doing it for all the wrong reasons.
Awesome, so you haven't even GM'd enough to get your first star, and yet already you come across as a bit jaded about the whole process, and although you don't 'seek acclaim' you have instead come on to tell us all how self sacrificing and not into acclaim you are...which makes me wonder if you are just seeking acclaim anyway.
I think most of the GM's happy about their first or second star are just happy to get the thanks and quite genuinely excited about the couple of dozen purple pixels that appear next to their name on the threads. That there might also be a material benefit (like a boon/get out of jail free card) seems similarly quite reasonable.
After all, people who 'put in' SHOULD be thanked.
It's less cost to give them a piece of paper with 'virtual value' than it is to buy them a pack of chips, would you begrudge the GM being bought a pack of chips or a can of coke?
That's the level this conversation is at.
If you really don't like kudos for doing your job, and are 100% completely free of any desire for recognition, please GM in an Anonymous mask going forward.
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And maybe the folks of our areas should look into rewarding our GMs not in a buy a boon kinda way. Over here we are having game days just in a tribute to those who have stuck around to get their two stars. I have even been looking into making dice trays for local GMs when they hit that 2nd star. Just as a thank you for the hard work.
Venture-Lieutenant, Indiana—Martinsville
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I don't recognize that specific line, but it sounds like something Tardy the Turtle would have said.would soooooo have to be purplier ... and more gnomish ... and moreMore Pink than Purple Thea, but might work...
http://s99.photobucket.com/user/missjms23/media/CatBunny.jpg.html
Guess the quote time!!!
"Crayons taste like purple!"
Yes.. in the first pilot episode on FOX. Greg the Bunny was, sadly, never given much of a chance.
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From what I understand boons are given away to promote the game and encourage people to play more. They are given at cons because it is easy way to do it. Now someone playing at a con can get a random boon. What about that workhorse GM that organizes and runs 10, 20, 50, 100+ games a year. That amount of DMing is drawing in people to your game too. Those people are drawing players. They are promoting your game. Plus it would answer the complaints about con only boons. They do not have to be as grand. They can scale as you see fit, btu I know people that would frame a signed Mike Brock boon. I am sure someone reading this may had so already have. That how you secure life long customers.
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357 tables later have I seen a player demand a game? Yep, been there. more than once. My response. I'm a volunteer and I choose to not volunteer for you, please leave my table and don't let the door hit you on the way out.
You want prizes and gifts and boons. Come to SCARAB (or some other convention or large event) and volunteer to be a GM for me. That kind of stuff is best kept locally and not at the corporate (Paizo) level. Paizo already does a lot more than people realize to support this community. I really don't like that some folks feel entitled to more than a hearty thanks from the players they entertain.
I do it for the fun of it and nothing more. Can it be expensive, yep. Time consuming, absolutely. Do gamers act in-grateful, sometimes.
Between January and June of this year I and my volunteers will have driven 8000+ miles and run over 1100 hours of games. We don't ask for anything and we don't expect it.
But I love it and get more out of GMing than just credit to a character. You want something for your time, energy and money. How about smiles, thanks and making new friends; that's what gaming is all about to begin with. That's why I do what I do, its not for the 'stuff'.
I don't need any rewards or stars or anything else to remind me of that.
Master Collins, I don't think that is what I, or a lot of us intend to say on this thread. So let me clarify my personal position on this topic.
Now most of us who GM to level myself and others are at currently understand that the money, time and energy we put into GM/Organizing and working to build a PFS group is not always going to be returned back. I myself am responsible for organizing three conventions a year, and attend everyone between San Francisco and Reno. Do I do it for acclaim, money and status? Absolutely not, because let's be honest: we spend more money, time and energy running and organizing PFS, than we do being a part of it many times.
If I was in it for the money and acclaim, I would just go back to being a Charge Nurse do the same time, and get paid more. Versus the time I spend now doing PFS related work. (and I should mention, for no pay as well). But when I left that life almost two years ago, I did so knowing that there was something better for me out there, and the community that I felt being a part of PFS was part of the reason to leave the insanity that was my life at that point.
What I am saying is, that there should be a thanks on a more personal level. I am not saying Paizo should pay for everything we do, but it would be nice to see thanks from the higher ups. Even if it is just a personalized email. And not just for the big shows like GenCon and PaizoCon, but for just giving our time to run a con, game day, or regular society. It's not easy to keep the fire going weeks in and weeks out. Every little thanks, whether from a fellow gamer, Venture Officer, and even Master Brock himself can do wonders for the tired Venture-Officer, the organizer who never gets to play but keeps on building, or GM who somehow ended up running 30 sessions before they got a break.
That is what I am saying. That is what I would like to see with the rewards program: Less about bragging rights, more about appreciation.
P.S: I am not trying to be combative, and I apologize if my tone sounds that way. But I am very passionate about this topic.
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Venture-Lieutenant, Indiana—Martinsville
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I also want to add something here.
Paizo has done well with the Society play as it is set up for use to run. I have, since playing, heard of some of the other organized games in Role Playing and find that what the Pathfinder Society has endured is nothing short of amazing. As we continue to play and eventually GM, the game will only get better.
I am sure that some things can be done to reward those giving their time into the Hobby in organized play. I tend to agree with earlier posters, that local rewards can be, and have been, done.
The stars by our name, though, are like notches on a bedpost. It's nice, but I just want to play the game.
Venture-Captain, California—San Francisco Bay Area South & West
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The last thing I want, quite honestly, is any sort of formal "email from your VC when you run your 25th table; email from Mike Brock when you get to 50 ..." program.
Now, if an event organizer should say something complimentary to me, it's because they decided they wanted to, not because it's been suggested that they should do this.
If I can get through running a few tables at a convention without any serious criticisms (including self-generated ones; I'm probably harder to satisfy than most of the folks on the other side of the screen) then I'm ahead of the game.
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The last thing I want, quite honestly, is any sort of formal "email from your VC when you run your 25th table; email from Mike Brock when you get to 50 ..." program.Now, if an event organizer should say something complimentary to me, it's because they decided they wanted to, not because it's been suggested that they should do this.
If I can get through running a few tables at a convention without any serious criticisms (including self-generated ones; I'm probably harder to satisfy than most of the folks on the other side of the screen) then I'm ahead of the game.
I am using the personal email as an example of how small it can be. My point is that there is appreciation being shown. Alot of us come out of personal and emotional pocket to do what we do. I think sometimes we get so caught up in the insanity that we can easily forget to thank each other for our works. That is what I am referring to. Showing a greater appreciation.
There is a reason people make 2-3-4 star threads. They want to give thanks. And I know its weird but I like those threads because they allow us to show appreciation to each other and feel like there is more to them than just their Paizo number and that they fill a GM slot.
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The idea of receiving a canned email at certain star tiers is pretty pointless in my opinion, because I've already got the star--getting an obligatory email pointing it out to me doesn't make sense.
Now, if there was an autoposted thread in the forums: "New X star DM: USERNAME (huzzah)" that would be kind of interesting. But it might get kind of spammy.
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So I read about 5 posts in this thread so far. Not that I dont think each and every one of the suggestions is important, but because all of these threads are the same. :P
Anywho, my suggestions:
1. X star rating gives you a one-time Y% discount on a single non-pdf purchase from Paizo.com. Not stackable with any other discount, etc.
Maybe Y=5X?
or
2. X star rating gives you a one-time Y% discount on the SHIPPING cost of physical product from Paizo.com. Not stackable with any other discounts, etc.
Maybe Y=10X?
Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds
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It's telling that there's such a wide range of motivators. These messageboards are just a small sample of the active GMs out there. Can you imagine how hard it is for the campaign leadership to upgrade the GM Rewards model without disappointing some of us? I think the Stars next to our names have been very effective. You can tell by every time Matthew rolls his eyes ;) that peer recognition is a huge motivator in PFS. Sure, players saying "Thanks for the game" has gotten many a GM to their first star. But what keeps the donkey pulling the cart for 30-40 scenarios? It's the enticing carrot dangling a mere foot ahead of it.
To be clear:
Paizo does not HAVE to dangle anything in front of my face to get me to continue GMing. I would be willing to bet that the majority of GMs feel the same way. We love what we do, and will continue to do it because we love it. Alternatively, we know we're needed, and are not the kind of people who will walk away from that need. Or, frankly, the rewards that ARE offered (in the form of character credit) are sufficiently motivational for the remainder of us (which is fine).
But I would be willing to bet that you don't simply expect your wife to love you just because you love her. You tell her in lots of little ways, just as she tells you. Are those things necessary to maintain your relationship? Maybe not. Do they help keep your relationship as awesome as it is? Absolutely.
We are on these boards pulling for Paizo all the time (and, as you pointed out, that is a tiny percentage of the people who actually play Paizo's games). The rest of us are out and amongst the gaming community telling people how awesome Paizo is. They, too, are constantly discussing the merits of Paizo's products with anyone who will pay attention. As GMs, all of us are regularly making sure that people are enjoying Paizo's game. WE are the face of Paizo for the vast majority of people.
Does Paizo have to pat me on the back every now and then to keep me doing that? No. But if they did, my vigor and zeal for doing so would be redoubled.
And, Doug, this response is not targeted at you, specifically. You just asked the right questions to get the above response out of me.
What has gotten you to this point as a GM?
What could Paizo dangle in front of you to get you to GM another 30 scenarios before GenCon?
NOW you get the direct response. (-:
What has gotten me here is a desire to see my store recognized as the best of its kind. Not only is the environment one of the best environments you can find in a gaming store (seriously: it comes with an award winning coffee shop and cafe attached), but the people involved in the store are among the most personally accessible people you will ever find in a gaming environment. I like setting the example, and want my staff and those who volunteer to GM for me to have something to aspire to.
Also, to be blunt, by being awesome as a GM I create a lot of repeat business for myself. It's the most fun I have marketing any of my products.
As for getting me to do another 30 scenarios before GenCon? Paizo would actually have to offer something pretty extreme. I have a lot of things to pay attention to, and while I love me some Pathfinder, shirking those other duties to the exclusion of PFS would end up in Very Bad Things(tm) happening.
But that's just me.
I can easily see some sort of incentive like a race boon dragging many of my GMs from the fringes and getting them clamoring for more tables to run. And I would love to see that, because it would mean Paizo cares as much about setting the example as I do.
Edited: To clarify a point.
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Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds
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There should not be a canned email message. Your VC or VL should do it. Honestly it takes 5 minutes at the most to fire up your email and say awesome job.
The canned email should absolutely go to your VC or VL, however. I can assure you that I have no idea how many stars most of my GMs have, and I doubt my VC is any more aware of them than I (likely less, as she's rarely on the public boards - and even then she'd only get exposed to the four or five of us who post). THEY need the email so they know who to congratulate. Otherwise GMs are forced into acts that make Matthew Pittard's eyes roll.
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There should not be a canned email message. Your VC or VL should do it. Honestly it takes 5 minutes at the most to fire up your email and say awesome job.The canned email should absolutely go to your VC or VL, however. I can assure you that I have no idea how many stars most of my GMs have, and I doubt my VC is any more aware of them than I (likely less, as she's rarely on the public boards - and even then she'd only get exposed to the four or five of us who post). THEY need the email so they know who to congratulate. Otherwise GMs are forced into acts that make Matthew Pittard's eyes roll.
See, things like that is something we should be investing in. Areas that know each other. I know its harder to do in areas that are far apart, but it allows open communication amongst an area.
Now I am blessed, and come from an area where we all talk to each other regularly. If not though, we wouldn't know each other very well and the loneliness would be worse. Having good lines of communication, even if it's just to boost each other up, does wonders in keeping players, GMs and leaders in the game..
This is just my 2 cents. So long as appreciation is being shown, I don't care what the goodies are.
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Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds
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There should not be a canned email message. Your VC or VL should do it. Honestly it takes 5 minutes at the most to fire up your email and say awesome job.The canned email should absolutely go to your VC or VL, however. I can assure you that I have no idea how many stars most of my GMs have, and I doubt my VC is any more aware of them than I (likely less, as she's rarely on the public boards - and even then she'd only get exposed to the four or five of us who post). THEY need the email so they know who to congratulate. Otherwise GMs are forced into acts that make Matthew Pittard's eyes roll.See, things like that is something we should be investing in. Areas that know each other. I know its harder to do in areas that are far apart, but it allows open communication amongst an area.
Now I am blessed, and come from an area where we all talk to each other regularly. If not though, we wouldn't know each other very well and the loneliness would be worse. Having good lines of communication, even if it's just to boost each other up, does wonders in keeping players, GMs and leaders in the game..
This is just my 2 cents. So long as appreciation is being shown, I don't care what the goodies are.
I'll be honest: I suspect there are a reasonable number of GMs who have no idea how many stars they may have (just as there are a good number of them who never come to these boards). Our own area has very good communication, and Jacque is very good about saying "thank you." But it would be cool if Paizo alerted her to when a GM got a star so she could point it out for the rest of us at a game day. Because, like I said, I'm willing to bet that it is not irregular for people to not know, themselves.
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RPG Superstar 2014 Top 32
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They could use the existing watermark system to watermark your star rating and main faction onto the chronicle sheet page of any scenario you download. That would be kind of cool.
I don't really know that I want players at cons having my full name. I had a bad experience...Long story.
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If I successfully cast Dominate Person on Mike, Mark and John, this is what I'd do.
GM Boon Page
1 Star : WIDE REACH
You have permanent access to Race Boons for Aasimar, Tiefling and Tengu. Everyone else cannot make a character of this race on the day the announcement goes live - previous characters still exist but if the character doesn't have a chronicle sheet from the leniency period, they are illegal.
2 Stars: KNOWLEDGE
Once per session, one of your characters may draw upon their knowledge of the Chronicles and receive a +5 to a skill check. This must be announced before the dice is rolled.
In addition, you have permanent access to all Pathfinder legal creatures for the purposes of an Improved Familiar.
3 Stars: WEALTH
All maximum magic item prices allowable for purchase based on Fame are reduced permanently by 10 per cent for all of your characters.
In addition, you have permanent access to the races Nagaji, Wayang and Kitsune.
4 Stars: MIGHT
Once per session, one of your characters may automatically confirm a critical hit if they roll a threat.
In addition, you have permanent access to the races Ifrit, Oread and Undine.
5 Stars: SEEKER
All your characters may begin with 4 traits, instead of the usual 2.
In addition, you have permanent access to all races included under Featured or Uncommon Races in the Advanced Race Guide except for Hobgoblin, Orc and Merfolk.
~~~
This way Paizo doesn't lose any money, having a 5 star gm play at your table is like going for a hike with Sylvester Stallone and I don't have to deal with so many g@**%@n Aasimar and Tieflings ever again[/personalbias]. Everyone wins!
Discuss!
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Venture-Captain, California—San Francisco Bay Area South & West
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They could use the existing watermark system to watermark your star rating and main faction onto the chronicle sheet page of any scenario you download. That would be kind of cool.
Not really. (And, in any case, it's a lot more work than just adding a watermark to page header/footers). And, in fact, the Chronicle sheet (unlike all the other pages in the scenario) carries no watermarks.
I don't have a "main faction"; if you were to take the faction of my first character it would be Shadow Lodge (oops ...); my highest-level character happens to be Andoran; my current favourite character is Lantern Lodge (oops again ...), and I have multiple Grand Lodge characters.
But while the Paizo account we use for purchases is in my name, my wife is also an active GM. All the scenarios are downloaded to my account, but my wife doesn't want my star rating, etc., on chronicles she hands out (especially since she's racking up credit slightly faster than I am).
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If I successfully cast Dominate Person on Mike, Mark and John, this is what I'd do.
GM Boon Page
1 Star : WIDE REACH
You have permanent access to Race Boons for Aasimar, Tiefling and Tengu. Everyone else cannot make a character of this race on the day the announcement goes live - previous characters still exist but if the character doesn't have a chronicle sheet from the leniency period, they are illegal.2 Stars: KNOWLEDGE
Once per session, one of your characters may draw upon their knowledge of the Chronicles and receive a +5 to a skill check. This must be announced before the dice is rolled.
In addition, you have permanent access to all Pathfinder legal creatures for the purposes of an Improved Familiar.3 Stars: WEALTH
All maximum magic item prices allowable for purchase based on Fame are reduced permanently by 10 per cent for all of your characters.
In addition, you have permanent access to the races Nagaji, Wayang and Kitsune.4 Stars: MIGHT
Once per session, one of your characters may automatically confirm a critical hit if they roll a threat.
In addition, you have permanent access to the races Ifrit, Oread and Undine.5 Stars: SEEKER
All your characters may begin with 4 traits, instead of the usual 2.
In addition, you have permanent access to all races included under Featured or Uncommon Races in the Advanced Race Guide except for Hobgoblin, Orc and Merfolk.~~~
This way Paizo doesn't lose any money, having a 5 star gm play at your table is like going for a hike with Sylvester Stallone and I don't have to deal with so many g&!&@!n Aasimar and Tieflings ever again[/personalbias]. Everyone wins!
Discuss!
I like your ideas and would like to subscribe to your newsletter.
No, but seriously, there's good stuff here; any given aspect of this would work for me. I think all of it together is way too much, though. Could we build on the overall theory of this in a way that's slightly less unbalancing?
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It seems like a lot, but given that most of the most devoted Pathfinder players I know are stuck in between 2 and 3 stars (after playing for years!), I think the rewards make sense. I might possibly reduce the skill bonus to +3 instead of +5 though. +5 seems like an auto success.
We also have to remember that the folks who judge the game the most are the least likely to create a build that breaks the game.
I mean, the bare minimum of hours required to reach 5 stars is 400. That's 16 days straight volunteering for Paizo, without factoring in transport, gaming supplies, problem players, darkness rules, etc. It's a huge commitment and it demands something worthwhile.
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It seems like a lot, but given that most of the most devoted Pathfinder players I know are stuck in between 2 and 3 stars (after playing for years!), I think the rewards make sense. I might possibly reduce the skill bonus to +3 instead of +5 though. +5 seems like an auto success.
We also have to remember that the folks who judge the game the most are the least likely to create a build that breaks the game.
I mean, the bare minimum of hours required to reach 5 stars is 400. That's 16 days straight volunteering for Paizo, without factoring in transport, gaming supplies, problem players, darkness rules, etc. It's a huge commitment and it demands something worthwhile.
You're not wrong.
I think I'm good with everything you've proposed except the discount on magical items. This is not the time to try introducing new WBL issues.
But I really, really like the skill bonus for "knowing the Chronicles." That's a great (and playful) use of the IC/OOC dichotomy.
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Venture-Captain, California—San Francisco Bay Area South & West
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I mean, the bare minimum of hours required to reach 5 stars is 400.
That's 4 stars by my calculations - it would take 600 hours for 5 stars. And that's just time at the table, not counting all the extra prep time.
All calculations made assuming a 4-hour scenario, of course. The fastest way to get stars is to run We Be Goblins! That generally takes less than four hours, and because it's a module it counts as two tables of credit.
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I mean, the bare minimum of hours required to reach 5 stars is 400.That's 4 stars by my calculations - it would take 600 hours for 5 stars. And that's just time at the table, not counting all the extra prep time.
All calculations made assuming a 4-hour scenario, of course. The fastest way to get stars is to run We Be Goblins! That generally takes less than four hours, and because it's a module it counts as two tables of credit.
That'll get you to four stars, but the fifth has some other requirements, which include not just variety, but recommendations as well. Hyperspecializing in WBG! probably won't make that happen. ;p
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I like the boons, but I think rewards should be time based more than teir based. Look at Mr. Mortika. He GMs a crazy amount beyond the 5 stars. I would have people that DM X games in Y time gets A,B, or C. I think everything should be free for paizo and nothing unbalancing. I would just give them regular boons they would give away at a con.
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And this proposed mystery boon is/would be available to all those complainers who are willing to put the; time, effort and dedication to entertain their peers. This boon wouldn't be something denied them, they could earn it too.
Can you see where you went wrong here? The sort of people who make up the complainer/whiner category tend also to be the people who want something for nothing. They begrudge the wellbeing of others, yet aren't interested in hearing about the effort it took those others to get there.
:p
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Venture-Captain, Texas—Waco
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As a VC, I wish there was an easy way for me to look up the number of games my GMs have credit for, but the only thing I can do is look at each of their sessions lists and manually count up all the game credits toward their GM Star rating. Not a particularly rewarding way for me to spend my limited free time, I could be organizing and running games instead. I can quickly see how many games of GM credit I have, but not anyone else, unfortunately, which makes sending that well-earned congratulatory note a bit of a hit-or-miss proposition. It was only by sheer luck that I noticed Grolick earned his second star GMing for me at 1d4Con in Virginia last weekend...
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That kind of stuff is best kept locally and not at the corporate (Paizo) level. Paizo already does a lot more than people realize to support this community. I really don't like that some folks feel entitled to more than a hearty thanks from the players they entertain.
Maybe it's because I haven't had much Venture Officer contact in regards to my gamedays, but could you let me in to some of the ways that Paizo supports this community that I might not be aware of?
I ask because I am someone that thinks that I should be thanked by more then just by the players [I would like to be thanked by Paizo]. And maybe you can help me see my error?
This is the first organized marketing campaign I've been a part of that has charged to play, so I could be easily missing something that should be obvious.
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Personally, I'm happy with the status quo, but it would be nice if players were more appreciative and if more people would volunteer to help out.
One possible problem with offering tangible rewards for GM'ing is that some players will equate those rewards as "payment", which will further excacerbate their false senses of entitlemt.
The reality is that some people are simply not wired to be good at the game of chicken. Let me explain -- in the game of chicken two people drive toward each other and the "loser" is the first person to swerve away from the oncoming collision.
Similarly, when a problem is about to arise in an organization -- such as not enough GM's for an event -- it is very obvious to all involved that this crisis is fast approaching. Often times the best person for the job does not step forward or get volunteered. Instead, it is usually the person who is most anxious about the looming crisis.
This pattern can quickly lead to resentment and burn out. It also cannot be remedied by simple trinkets, because they do little to address the root of the problem -- the perceived lack of sustainability or stability in the organization.
The real solution is that the local player base has to recognize the efforts of these heroes and take steps to contribute more.
I concur.
My best time at a con last month was when a set of players said "What a way to end a con!" with high-fives after a game I GMed.Swag wouldn't have beaten that.
And it was nice, that even after some tough games, players would thank me, even if they had to hunt me down to do it.
And the sense of entitlement...oh, boy, we don't want to start that. There are subtle indications of it brewing in this thread alone. I can only imagine that GM gifts by Paizo would meet a request for even more 'improvements' or troubles.
As for PC boosts, at best they should be for flavor, not power. Any GM racking up stars can probably make a PC to any power level they want. The game is easy enough to break as it is. I'd rather not tempt people who want more PC power into becoming GMs.
I think Paizo's caught in a rough place. I know they want to show GMs appreciation, but then to be fair the method becomes a system, which by nature isn't very appreciative, just automatic, and perhaps exploitable.
Not good.
I do think it'd be a good idea if VCs (& maybe VLs) could track their local GMs. "Wow, that quiet guy has GMed 42 games for us! I didn't know. We should thank him."
Heck, I could imagine impromptu parties around certain benchmarks, and that's pretty cool, and gets that GM's players and community involved, without putting a burden on Paizo (corporate level) or creating a sense of entitlement.
Heck, GMing, to me, is a reward, and I wish I could do it more.
Cheers, JMK
Edit: for clarity
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Without violating anything in my NDA here are a few things that I think people may not know about or may know about but not realize how important they really are.
I have never been charged to play and that is not a requirement of the campaign. It is incredibly easy to get started and to continue. Maintenance of this campaign is expensive and their resources could probably be used elsewhere for a much larger ROI but still they find cool ways to move the campaign forward creatively at $4 a pdf most of which they are happy to provide gratis to folks running events. People should take a minute to think about how many people and hours it takes to get one pdf scenario produced.
Paizo has several employees supporting this campaign who work tirelessly for even less thanks than the GMs here are complaining about not getting. I have seen Mike work with a single person within the campaign on a issue for days trying to resolve a problem. I have seen John sit down with a new player and go over rules after spending over an hour making a character with him. This is a company that has shown me time and time again that they care about every single player within the community.
Speaking of people, keep in mind when an event occurs that is getting prize support or boons that doesn't just go through the hands of one person. Someone designs the boons and edits them, they have to go through an approval process and prizes get processed by someone who fills the order then someone who pulls and packs and ships the products. Anyone who has ever gotten a prize at a convention or other event, did you thank all those people involved in getting that prize into your hands or just the gal/guy that handed it to you?
They have a campaign coin recognition program, the star recognition program, boons, prize support and I have seen numerous posts from Paizo staff thanking players and GMs, if they cannot get to everyone that's not because they don't appreciate someone. Its because there are a lot of people to thank everyday.
They support this great forum and their staff is constantly reading and responding to the posts and have taken into account the feedback from the participants on a large number of issues and are constantly looking for ways to make the campaign better.
They support a large community of Venture Officers who are specifically tasked to work within their communities to provide coordination and who have access to boons and prize support for events. Beyond the Venture Officers anyone can apply for support for an event and Paizo has made that support readily available, I was getting support for events long before I became a Venture Officer.
They work with other companies to help them improve their products to make sure that they are supporting the community. Hero Lab comes to mind.
They work with other sources like Impressions to release thousands of copies of a module to support FreeRPG Day. That may be free to us but it is not free to Paizo.
I see a lot of people here asking for thanks and recognition without any consideration for what Paizo does to support this community and it irritates me greatly.
So before people go asking for credit and gratuity from Paizo take a minute to think about whether or not you have taken the time to say thank you to the good folks at Paizo who work their butts off to bring you a product that allows you to spend time in the fellowship of good friends, make new friends and just have a generally good time?
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I understand where your coming from, let me explain my side so people understand why I feel the way I do.
I have never been charged to play and that is not a requirement of the campaign. It is incredibly easy to get started and to continue. Maintenance of this campaign is expensive and their resources could probably be used elsewhere for a much larger ROI but still they find cool ways to move the campaign forward creatively at $4 a pdf most of which they are happy to provide gratis to folks running events. People should take a minute to think about how many people and hours it takes to get one pdf scenario produced.
The majority of the time I've played I've paid either for the scenario or to attend the event. I think twice out of 18 tables I've played I haven't paid for.
And I have no doubt in my mind that Paizo doesn't profit from those $4 dollar scenarios, that's not them being nice that's a company getting paid for having someone else do marketing for them. That's a shrewed business move, but not one that I'd consider a thank you to the people marketing the game for them.
Paizo has several employees supporting this campaign who work tirelessly for even less thanks than the GMs here are complaining about not getting. I have seen Mike work with a single person within the campaign on a issue for days trying to resolve a problem. I have seen John sit down with a new player and go over rules after spend over an hour making a character with him. This is a company that has shown me time and time again that they care about every single player with the community.
Paizo pays their employee's correct? Do they work hard for their job, yes. Without a doubt. I try to thank them as much as I possibly can as well.
They have a job that is supported by the money made from the selling of scenarios and other Paizo products people buy to be apart of PFS. Maybe it's because I'm jaded but I don't really see this as them doing me a favor.
Speaking of people, keep in mind when an event occurs that is getting prize support or boons that doesn't just go through the hands of one person. Someone designs the boons and edits them, they have to go through an approval process and prizes get processed by some who fills the order then someone who pulls and packs and ships the products. Anyone who has ever gotten a prize at a convention or other event, did you thank all those people involved in getting that prize into your hands or just the gal/guy that handed it to you?
Again those people are paid to do those jobs because of the success of the marketing campaign that is PFS. If PFS wasn't making money I doubt that level of support would be there.
They have a campaign coin recognition program, the star recognition program, boons, prize support and I have seen numerous posts from Paizo staff thanking players and GMs, if they cannot get to everyone that's not because they don't appreciate someone. Its because there are a lot of people to thank everyday.
The star program is pretty meaningless to me for anyone under 4 stars, because all it is is bragging rights to people who care. I haven't met anyone who cared how many stars I have gotten.
And yes the others are great for the select few that get it, but a lot of people who do a lot of work and spend a good bit of money to support this marketing campaign get nothing. They should be thanked by the company that they are paying to market for.
They support this great forum and their staff is constantly reading and responding to the posts and have taken into account the feedback from the participants on a large number of issues and are constantly looking for ways to make the campaign better.
Employee's doing their job again. How many people thank the post office employee's who sort the mail? Or the lab technician that reads the x-rays?
But they all get paid for what they do, most GM's don't. That's the difference between random GM paying to market a product for a company and a paid employee for that company.
They support a large community of Venture Officers who are specifically tasked to work within their communities to provide coordination and who have access to boons and prize support for events. Beyond the Venture Officers anyone can apply for support for an event and Paizo has made that support readily available, I was getting support for events long before I became a Venture Officer.
As long as the event is big enough to justify them paying out of pocket to do some of the marketing. Which, maybe it me being jaded again, looks like to me that they have a threshold for when they are willing to spend cash on marketing their products through PFS.
And they should support the V-O's. They sacrifice a lot of time, effort, money in order to market the game for Paizo.
They work with other companies to help them improve their products to make sure that they are supporting the community. Hero Lab comes to mind.
They work with other sources like Impressions to release thousands of copies of a module to support FreeRPG Day. That may be free to us but it is not free to Paizo.
Free RPG isn't free for the stores either, it's a hell of a marketing campaign for these companies though. It's in no way a thank you to PFS players.
I see a lot of people here asking for thanks and recognition without any consideration for what Paizo does to support this community and it irritates me greatly.
It irritates me a bity when people discount the fact that Paizo is supporting the community in order to make money off of it. They aren't doing it because they're nice people [though many are nice people] they're doing it so that they have a customer base that grows and doesn't die. Same reason why WotC had RPGA, and LFR.
So before people go asking for credit and gratuity from Paizo take a minute to think about whether or not you have taken the time to say thank you to the good folks at Paizo who works their butts off to bring you a product that allows you to spend time in the fellowship of good friends, make new friends and just have a generally good time?
I try to thank as many people as I can for doing this for me as I possibly can. That includes me trying to thank the Paizo staff I have interacted with. I think courtesy is a dying thing in the US and I hate that. But I also feel it should work both ways, I really do think that Paizo should set up some system to thank the people who buy the scenarios and run them for people. Those people are taking money out of their own pockets in order to support Paizo's marketing campaign and the should be thanked with a direct thank you.
In my mind that seems like a polite thing to do.
Thank you for your post Mr. Collins, it does help me to see where the other side is coming from. And I hope you don't take this as me attacking your viewpoint. I just think we view things froma different side of the coin.
I think it's great that you and many people are willing to do what you do for less then what I'm asking for.
And it may just be my cynicism that makes me feel the way I do. It's hard for me to separate the fact that I'm paying to advertise someone's company. It seems weird to me.
Maybe in the end PFS isn't really for me. I'll have to talk to the store manager where I run my games and see what he thinks.
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Paizo has several employees supporting this campaign who work tirelessly for even less thanks than the GMs here are complaining about not getting. ... Speaking of people, keep in mind when an event occurs that is getting prize support or boons that doesn't just go through the hands of one person.
I think a salary counts as a form of gratitude, actually.
Edit: That was really flippant, and I don't want to come across like I'm dismissing all the work you just put in to that post, so I want to expand a bit. I'm not dismissing you, but I am rejecting your premise.
See, you're saying that people who are compensated for their work on this campaign work a lot harder than GMs do. Which I'm not disputing. But you're saying that this somehow means that GMs shouldn't be compensated in any way, with the implication that we should at least consider feeling bad for asking, and I disagree strongly. Yes, there are people who work really hard on this campaign, and they get paid--this is their job.
Then there are people who work really hard on this campaign, and they get compensated: Venture-Captains get PDFs of each product for free, and several other benefits besides. Venture-Lieutenants get the scenarios for free, is my understanding, and negotiate their workloads with their VCs; if any of them are feeling underappreciated in their role that's going to be something they should address on their own.
There's still two (codified) categories underneath VL, though: GM and player. Players get to play; that's a reward in itself, because it's the whole point of this hobby. GMs, though, put more in to each scenario than their players, because they have to prep it, which often involves a monetary expense (printing chronicles if nothing else), they have to adjucate rules issues, they have to coordinate 3-7 players, and they of course have to run the scenario, which is fun, yes, but also work.
So, yes, I think that on the scale of people who put work into this campaign, we see salary, product, less product, and then nothing and nothing, respectively, despite the fact that the last two categories put in disproportionate amounts of work.
(Yes, I'm calling my star count 'nothing' in this case. Sorry, but it ain't much.)
I'm not asking for free product. In fact, I've argued several times in this thread that free product isn't a good thing to ask for, because we don't want Paizo to have to spend a lot of money on us. But I absolutely reject the idea that I should be grateful for the chance to work my ass off to make sure other people can play. In a perfect world, we could all take turns running and everybody would get to play as much as they want by virtue of just bringing more people into the campaign--i.e. more GMs = more people to take turns--but it's not a perfect world, and some people wind up carrying the weight, and that will be visible in the count of how many scenarios they have GMed, and I would like to see some kind of benefit for that other than being told I should be thankful for the opportunity.
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One other thing I'd like to address from Mr. Collins' post:
They support this great forum and their staff is constantly reading and responding to the posts and have taken into account the feedback from the participants on a large number of issues and are constantly looking for ways to make the campaign better.
This reminds me of something that's been bugging me: We're a full week into this thread, with 145 posts, and it was spawned from another thread that ran 267 posts over 10 days. There has not been a single Paizo representative checking in to say something like, "We're listening." Or anything else, except "I removed some posts."
Which is why I'm so confident I'm going to win my bet. Unfortunately.
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Like I said if you want recognition or boons, prizes it is best done at the local level, not corporately. Come to SCARAB and volunteer for me and I'll take care of you.
It is offensive to me that you are devaluing the work done to support the campaign because someone is earning a living doing it while simultaneously saying that your work is somehow more valuable because to do not get a pay check to do it.
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RPG Superstar 2014 Top 32
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The problem is, Delbert, that you are making a value judgment, comparing two types of work that are really not comparable. The work that Paizo does is entirely different than the work of GMs. Also, while a VC or VL will often GM, they are mainly rewarded for their organization of game days, not for GMming. I don't think that it's disputable that GMs are an important part of PFS. The question is whether or not everyone is getting appropriate recognition for the work that they do.
As for doing boons and prizes at the local level, that isn't a particularly workable solution. If players chip into a fund that goes to rewarding GMs, many players won't understand why the GMs are getting something for free, not realizing that the GM has paid to prep the scenario. Boons must come from Paizo at some point or another, and if boons are given out to GMs, they are likely moving from one GM to another. This is why a boon given to all GMs at star levels is a good idea - it costs Paizo next to nothing, it compensates GMs even a little bit, and it raises awareness of the star system.
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RPG Superstar 2014 Top 32
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Something else that I should probably add here to the question of locally-organized GM recognition - for smaller regions, the organizer is the primary GM, or one of a handful of them. For an organizer to ask people to chip in money for the purchase of rewards for GMs is very likely to be misconstrued by some as a money grab.