Mastering the Elements: N. Jolly's guide to the Pathfinder Kineticist

[Melkiador]

Tels wrote:

It's a good thing you're not in charge of the kineticist because that's terribly designed and OP for the class.

It's certainly doing more than an infusion's worth of things.

I envision something simpler to start:

Hasty Infusion
Element: universal; Type: form infusion; Level: 3; Burn: 0
Associated Blasts: any
Saving Throw: none
When affected by Haste or similar effects, you may make a Secondary Kinetic Blast in addition to your Kinetic Blast. This Secondary Blast works as the triggering Kinetic Blast, but as if the Kineticist level were 4 levels lower. The Secondary Blast does not itself trigger Secondary Blasts.

[Torbyne]

Melkiador wrote:

Tels wrote:

It's a good thing you're not in charge of the kineticist because that's terribly designed and OP for the class.

It's certainly doing more than an infusion's worth of things.

I envision something simpler to start:

Hasty Infusion
Element: universal; Type: form infusion; Level: 3; Burn: 0
Associated Blasts: any
Saving Throw: none
When affected by Haste or similar effects, you may make a Secondary Kinetic Blast in addition to your Kinetic Blast. This Secondary Blast works as the triggering Kinetic Blast, but as if the Kineticist level were 4 levels lower. The Secondary Blast does not itself trigger Secondary Blasts.

ooh, i like that. let me try one too!

Overwhelming Infusion
Element: universal; Type: form infusion; Level: 4; Burn: 3
Prerequisite: Snake
Associated Blasts: any
Saving Throw: none
Your Blast takes the form of a massive volume of elemental material that you may continue to direct after impact. On a successful hit with your first Kinetic Blast you may choose an additional target within 30' of your target to strike with the same blast and modifiers as your initial blast. If your Kineticist level is 11 or higher you may direct a third blast after the second impact but reduce damage of the third blast to 1/3.

:)

[Torbyne]

Tels wrote:

Undone wrote:

Melkiador wrote:

The kineticist could really use a wild talent or feat that allows their blasts to benefit in some other way from effects like haste. It's kind of crummy that the kineticist can't often benefit from having helpful teammates. It's a team based game, and the kineticist is missing out on the good parts of that.

The first time I read it I thought they had that (the ability to do multiple attacks for an infusion) but it turns out that wasn't the case. Honestly I feel like this infusion would literally fix 100% of the issues.

Full attack Infusion
Level 3, Burn 1
You can full attack with your blasts taking a -5 for each attack beyond the first (Simulating full BAB) You can make one more attack at +6 to +10 BAB, two at +11 to +14 and at +15 to +20 you can make 3 additional attacks. This benefits from haste.

It's a good thing you're not in charge of the kineticist because that's terribly designed and OP for the class.

That comes across as maybe a little harsh? Maybe lets talk about how the burn cost to damage expectation is so strong? Or compare expected average damage at level X is Y whereas the Kineticist is at 80% of Y while this proposed infusion would allow constant attacks at 2.5 times greater than Y.

[Undone]

Tels wrote:

Undone wrote:

Melkiador wrote:

The kineticist could really use a wild talent or feat that allows their blasts to benefit in some other way from effects like haste. It's kind of crummy that the kineticist can't often benefit from having helpful teammates. It's a team based game, and the kineticist is missing out on the good parts of that.

The first time I read it I thought they had that (the ability to do multiple attacks for an infusion) but it turns out that wasn't the case. Honestly I feel like this infusion would literally fix 100% of the issues.

Full attack Infusion
Level 3, Burn 1
You can full attack with your blasts taking a -5 for each attack beyond the first (Simulating full BAB) You can make one more attack at +6 to +10 BAB, two at +11 to +14 and at +15 to +20 you can make 3 additional attacks. This benefits from haste.

It's a good thing you're not in charge of the kineticist because that's terribly designed and OP for the class.

I mean they clearly don't have an issue with it attacking more than once since it can be quickened and they can buy an extra blast which can also be quickened. They also give you access to a full attack as long as you attack different targets. Being able to burn down a single target is pretty much the core of pathfinder in real games. The problem is the effects come at a level where damage no longer matters much. Honestly the damage is underwhelming and while 1 burn might be a bit on the aggressively costed side you could easily just make it 2. Heck we practically have that infusion in K Whip/Blade.

[Azten]

Homebrew stuff in another thread, people. Thanks.

[Tels]

Undone wrote:

Tels wrote:

Undone wrote:

Melkiador wrote:

The kineticist could really use a wild talent or feat that allows their blasts to benefit in some other way from effects like haste. It's kind of crummy that the kineticist can't often benefit from having helpful teammates. It's a team based game, and the kineticist is missing out on the good parts of that.

The first time I read it I thought they had that (the ability to do multiple attacks for an infusion) but it turns out that wasn't the case. Honestly I feel like this infusion would literally fix 100% of the issues.

Full attack Infusion
Level 3, Burn 1
You can full attack with your blasts taking a -5 for each attack beyond the first (Simulating full BAB) You can make one more attack at +6 to +10 BAB, two at +11 to +14 and at +15 to +20 you can make 3 additional attacks. This benefits from haste.

It's a good thing you're not in charge of the kineticist because that's terribly designed and OP for the class.

I mean they clearly don't have an issue with it attacking more than once since it can be quickened and they can buy an extra blast which can also be quickened. They also give you access to a full attack as long as you attack different targets. Being able to burn down a single target is pretty much the core of pathfinder in real games. The problem is the effects come at a level where damage no longer matters much. Honestly the damage is underwhelming and while 1 burn might be a bit on the aggressively costed side you could easily just make it 2. Heck we practically have that infusion in K Whip/Blade.

Yeah, you can quicken. At 13th level. For 3 burn.

Meanwhile, yours let's you full attack at 7th level for 1 burn. Come 13th level, one could, theoretically attack 4 times at +9/+4/+9/+9 by accepting 4 burn (quicken + full attack infusion) at 6d6+modifiers or 12d6+modifiers for another 2 burn as a composite blast on each attack. With a 24 con and overflow you have a +15 or +11 modifier on those blasts meaning you're doing an average of 36 damage for physical hits or 32 damage for energy hits on the basic blast. Or you can drop the Quicken and Empower for 50% more damage on 3 attacks instead of making 4 attacks. With a physical, hasted blast using empower, you can deal 162 points of damage in a round if all 3 attacks hit. Need I mention this is done at range and can be done pretty much all day?

Pretty much the only way a Full Attack Infusion could work is if it prevented you from, essentially using it with any other class abilities. No infusions, no mutagenesis, no composite blasts, no Overflow, etc.

[Mark Seifter]

I have to say, that while mutagenesis is not actually a thing, it really really should be! I'm putting that down as a potential ability name (maybe it would be an alchemist ability to spend your mutagen to create an ooze or aberration buddy?)

[Undone]

Tels wrote:

Pretty much the only way a Full Attack Infusion could work is if it prevented you from, essentially using it with any other class abilities. No infusions, no mutagenesis, no composite blasts, no Overflow, etc.

Which would be fine because the entirety of the class features is inferior to full attacking from a mathmatical standpoint just as a fact.

EDIT: Just realized you can channel your blast through a conductive weapon. Wow. I'm going to get theory crafting and come back.

[Rosc]

Hey, question about mid or high level Kineticists. How do you keep your core, low level Infusions relevant?

Burning Infusion seems pretty core to Fire's ability to bypass resistances, and Draining Infusion is your only real option against (most) creatures immune to your energy attacks. Special shout out to Blood Kineticists for their special blood powers. Both, however, have DCs based on 1st level spells. I know Spell Focus is a thing, and stats from Elemental Overflow help delay the inevitable, but a lot of those central Infusions ultimately have a shelf life that expires before your character's career comes to a close.

Shame that Ability Focus is banned in PFS. Then again, allowing that feat would cause a literal Witch hunt, and a lot of other classes could abuse it.

[Mark Seifter]

DCs on infusions are always full! :)

[Faelyn]

Mark Seifter wrote:

DCs on infusions are always full! :)

Yup! The only Wild Talents that do not scale with level are the Utilities... Which makes me sad... I think having a Heightened Utility talent would be really neat. Give it a certain Burn cost to allow the kineticist to increase the effective "spell level" of Utility Talents would be a nice option. *Winks at Marks*

[Squiggit]

Given that burn costs more or less automatically scale just by the nature of the mechanic and utility burn costs can never be reduced utilities should really, really scale automatically.

Though a heighten mechanic as a patch might be good.

[N. Jolly]

Faelyn wrote:

Mark Seifter wrote:

DCs on infusions are always full! :)

Yup! The only Wild Talents that do not scale with level are the Utilities... Which makes me sad... I think having a Heightened Utility talent would be really neat. Give it a certain Burn cost to allow the kineticist to increase the effective "spell level" of Utility Talents would be a nice option. *Winks at Marks*

Yeah, a product that had something like that would be pretty nice.

Personally, I've always wondered why they didn't scale as well as having Mark before in other threads, but QSS on that.

Really, shocked at how much off topic chatter and homebrew's already happened in this thread, reminds me of the early days. I'd say I hope we can get back on track, but this thread's never really had much of a track to get back onto, really becoming more of a general kineticist hub.

[Rosc]

Mark Seifter wrote:

DCs on infusions are always full! :)

This changes a lot of my perceptions about the Kineticist late game, all for the better. It also means that I have a couple of tiny errors to fix in my Kineticist Character Select guide.

Thanks, Mark!

[Faelyn]

N. Jolly wrote:

Faelyn wrote:

Mark Seifter wrote:

DCs on infusions are always full! :)

Yup! The only Wild Talents that do not scale with level are the Utilities... Which makes me sad... I think having a Heightened Utility talent would be really neat. Give it a certain Burn cost to allow the kineticist to increase the effective "spell level" of Utility Talents would be a nice option. *Winks at Marks*

Yeah, a product that had something like that would be pretty nice.

How did I miss that one??? I've purchased both the KoP, just haven't really had the opportunity to really delve into them, Jolly. I'm glad you hit that, though! Now I just need to find a non-PFS option to play me some Kineticist...

[Hugh Adams]

So below are the specifics for the Kineticist ability known as Foe Throw
_____________________________________________
Foe Throw

Element(s) aether; Type form infusion; Level 3; Burn 2
Associated Blasts telekinetic
Saving Throw Fort negates; see text

Your telekinetic blast can throw a Large or smaller creature instead of an unattended object; you can increase the burn cost by 1 to affect a creature of a larger size. If the creature you attempt to throw succeeds at a Fortitude save, it negates the blast entirely.

Otherwise, if your blast hits, both the thrown creature and the target take the full amount of damage from your telekinetic blast, and the thrown creature falls prone in the last unoccupied space along its path. If your blast misses, the thrown creature can choose to occupy any space within 30 feet of the target, it doesn't fall prone, and it takes half the normal amount of damage from your blast. The movement doesn't provoke attacks of opportunity.
_______________________________________________

I have 2 questions,

(1) what happens if you use the ability on an enemy whom is grappled by someone else and held by them.

(2) what happens if Foe Throw is used on a target creature that is attached to a mount by a harness that prevents being dismounted?

Also for a bonus question

(3) can you target an empty space with For Throw?

[Torbyne]

Hugh Adams wrote:

So below are the specifics for the Kineticist ability known as Foe Throw

_____________________________________________
Foe Throw

Element(s) aether; Type form infusion; Level 3; Burn 2
Associated Blasts telekinetic
Saving Throw Fort negates; see text

Your telekinetic blast can throw a Large or smaller creature instead of an unattended object; you can increase the burn cost by 1 to affect a creature of a larger size. If the creature you attempt to throw succeeds at a Fortitude save, it negates the blast entirely.

Otherwise, if your blast hits, both the thrown creature and the target take the full amount of damage from your telekinetic blast, and the thrown creature falls prone in the last unoccupied space along its path. If your blast misses, the thrown creature can choose to occupy any space within 30 feet of the target, it doesn't fall prone, and it takes half the normal amount of damage from your blast. The movement doesn't provoke attacks of opportunity.
_______________________________________________

I have 2 questions,

(1) what happens if you use the ability on an enemy whom is grappled by someone else and held by them.

(2) what happens if Foe Throw is used on a target creature that is attached to a mount by a harness that prevents being dismounted?

Also for a bonus question

(3) can you target an empty space with For Throw?

Neither condition 1 or 2 protect you against spell like effects and a saddle making you immune to an effect of that magnitude seems very over balanced. i would assume both situations put precedence on the Foe Throw movement over the pre-existing conditions. As a house rule i might allow the grappler to make a contested CMB role with the Kineticist using their CON MOD to hold the graplee in place. The grappled target would probably be subjected to some kind of blast damage from being wishboned like that.

for 3 i would say yes, targeting a square is AC 5 i believe.

Edit: food for thought though, if you Foe Throw someone at the ground of the square they occupy would you apply extra damage ie the usual 1D6 for every 5' of movement blocked by the solid object struck?

[Cyouni]

Undone wrote:

Melkiador wrote:

The kineticist could really use a wild talent or feat that allows their blasts to benefit in some other way from effects like haste. It's kind of crummy that the kineticist can't often benefit from having helpful teammates. It's a team based game, and the kineticist is missing out on the good parts of that.

The first time I read it I thought they had that (the ability to do multiple attacks for an infusion) but it turns out that wasn't the case. Honestly I feel like this infusion would literally fix 100% of the issues.

Full attack Infusion
Level 3, Burn 1
You can full attack with your blasts taking a -5 for each attack beyond the first (Simulating full BAB) You can make one more attack at +6 to +10 BAB, two at +11 to +14 and at +15 to +20 you can make 3 additional attacks. This benefits from haste.

I simulated the damage on my current kineticist, just to see exactly how absurdly designed this was. It makes a mockery of archer damage without empowering, and has a very good chance of soloing an enemy at +2 CR in one turn, taking only one burn to do so.

If this is supposed to be a substance infusion it gets even funnier.

[N. Jolly]

Faelyn wrote:

How did I miss that one??? I've purchased both the KoP, just haven't really had the opportunity to really delve into them, Jolly. I'm glad you hit that, though! Now I just need to find a non-PFS option to play me some Kineticist...

They're big books, it's easy to get lost, I'd like to see something official help them scale though.

Rosc wrote:

This changes a lot of my perceptions about the Kineticist late game, all for the better. It also means that I have a couple of tiny errors to fix in my Kineticist Character Select guide.

Thanks, Mark!

I guess that wasn't obvious in the guide, I'll have to change that. Looking forward to seeing you finish that guide, it's looking super nice now.

Torbyne wrote:

Neither condition 1 or 2 protect you against spell like effects and a saddle making you immune to an effect of that magnitude seems very over balanced. i would assume both situations put precedence on the Foe Throw movement over the pre-existing conditions. As a house rule i might allow the grappler to make a contested CMB role with the Kineticist using their CON MOD to hold the graplee in place. The grappled target would probably be subjected to some kind of blast damage from being wishboned like that.

for 3 i would say yes, targeting a square is AC 5 i believe.

Edit: food for thought though, if you Foe Throw someone at the ground of the square they occupy would you apply extra damage ie the usual 1D6 for every 5' of movement blocked by the solid object struck?

Yeah, I agree here. I mean you could throw them at the mount, I'd rule you didn't need an attack role for that myself.

I always assumed it went like this

1. Target creature, creature attempts save
2. If fails, you target another creature or pace
3. Make attack roll at new target
4. Damage applied.

So yeah, I'd rule you could hit the ground if you wanted, and me personally, if you just telekinetic faceplanted someone with it, I'd give you the extra 3d6 of damage for striking a solid object with 30 ft. to go, but I doubt that's actually intended.

[The Shaman]

Two questions the search function did not find in this thread - does reckless aim work on kineticists, and would the draconic bloodline bonus from a 1-level dip in draconic sorcerer work on energy blasts of the same element? I expect that to be the case, but I wanted to be sure.

[Luthorne]

Reckless Aim specifies shooting or throwing ranged weapons, so I think it probably doesn't apply to kinetic blasts. Draconic sorcerer (as well as orc) specifies spells, not spell-like abilities, so...it's pretty iffy. Given that Paizo has usually gone with spell-like abilities not counting (though it does for Augment Summoning) I would probably say no, conservatively, but consider asking your DM for their own interpretation. Can't hurt to ask.

[Texas Snyper]

Reckless aim should work since kinetic blast specifically calls out being counted as a weapon for the purposes of things like weapon focus.

[mikkelibob]

Remember that Bracers and the cracked ioun stone are both +1 competence bonuses to hit, and don't stack with Reckless Aim (or each other). Still, +2 is pretty decent even if it doesn't stack.

[Inkfist]

What's peoples thoughts on Wysp familiars? A number of elements seem to get their feat investment back immediately, e.g. An Earth Wysp gives you the benifit of 'weapon focus' 1/2 the benifit of 'weapon specialization' and saves you from having to invest a wild talent (and a bunch of burn) into tremorsense.

Various elements also have some nice skill buffs, and all the other abilities are just gravy.

Is there any downside I am missing, what's the best way to trigger the 'servitor' bonus.

[The Mortonator]

Inkfist wrote:

What's peoples thoughts on Wysp familiars? A number of elements seem to get their feat investment back immediately, e.g. An Earth Wysp gives you the benifit of 'weapon focus' 1/2 the benifit of 'weapon specialization' and saves you from having to invest a wild talent (and a bunch of burn) into tremorsense.

Various elements also have some nice skill buffs, and all the other abilities are just gravy.

Is there any downside I am missing, what's the best way to trigger the 'servitor' bonus.

My thoughts right now are even with those bonuses I would rather have about any other Improved Familiar instead. If there was an easier way to gain access to the wysps, they are great flavor and a nifty bonus. But, there are just so many other familiars with better stat lines.

[Imbicatus]

If the Wysp's bonuses were not competence bonuses, they would be more attractive. As it is, a bard in the party will make them completely useless.

[N. Jolly]

Agreed; while they're cool and flavorful, they're pretty low tier on the familiar scale.

[ringsnake]

You neglected to put Android in your list of obscure races.

You could make an Android Kineticist called Bender.

I'll go away now. Sorry... Sorry....

[Steve Danials]

Just a quick question : I was intending to play an aether /vibrokineticist (with the sonic blast) build, and was wondering if there were composite blasts for that combo that did the usual 2d6 /level, rather than just acting like a simple blast. Thanks!

[Fourshadow]

There is an advice thread for 3PP, but it ain't here: this is Paizo, ladies and gents.
Thank you!

[Deadmanwalking]

Fourshadow wrote:

There is an advice thread for 3PP, but it ain't here: this is Paizo, ladies and gents.

Thank you!

Given that this is the thread for the Guide, which includes 3PP stuff, why shouldn't that get asked here?

I mean, this is the Advice section, not the rules section, people ask about particular 3PP options here all the time. Not usually full 3PP character classes or anything, but characters with several 3PP options aren't uncommon.

Why do you object to asking a simple question here rather than cluttering up another board with what'd probably need to be a whole new thread?

[Ms. Pleiades]

A question: what are a kineticist's options for gathering power (given that they need two free hands), and attacking, when they are using the Earth Climb or the Earth Glide utility talents?

[Texas Snyper]

Deadmanwalking wrote:

Fourshadow wrote:

There is an advice thread for 3PP, but it ain't here: this is Paizo, ladies and gents.

Thank you!

Given that this is the thread for the Guide, which includes 3PP stuff, why shouldn't that get asked here?

I mean, this is the Advice section, not the rules section, people ask about particular 3PP options here all the time. Not usually full 3PP character classes or anything, but characters with several 3PP options aren't uncommon.

Why do you object to asking a simple question here rather than cluttering up another board with what'd probably need to be a whole new thread?

Because there is another thread that is specifically for this 3PP material.

[wynterknight]

Ms. Pleiades wrote:

A question: what are a kineticist's options for gathering power (given that they need two free hands), and attacking, when they are using the Earth Climb or the Earth Glide utility talents?

I'd say your hands would already be free while Earth Gliding; the description says you move through earth/rock/etc "like a fish through water" and leave no ripple or passage behind you, so I've always considered it basically phasing through stone like Kitty Pryde.

Earth Climb is more difficult; you are actually climbing, which means you need at least one hand on the wall, but I could see arguing for a Spider-man style thing, just sitting on the wall with both hands free. It depends on how lenient your DM is.

[N. Jolly]

Steve Danials wrote:

Just a quick question : I was intending to play an aether /vibrokineticist (with the sonic blast) build, and was wondering if there were composite blasts for that combo that did the usual 2d6 /level, rather than just acting like a simple blast. Thanks!

Questions involving KOP should generally be asked here, but I can answer it here real quick.

And no, neither blast has a traditional composite blast. I could go on for a while for this, but it was mostly out of laziness. KOP 4 might have new composites, so I might try to add some new stuff for that.

Texas Snyper wrote:

Deadmanwalking wrote:

Fourshadow wrote:

There is an advice thread for 3PP, but it ain't here: this is Paizo, ladies and gents.

Thank you!

Given that this is the thread for the Guide, which includes 3PP stuff, why shouldn't that get asked here?

I mean, this is the Advice section, not the rules section, people ask about particular 3PP options here all the time. Not usually full 3PP character classes or anything, but characters with several 3PP options aren't uncommon.

Why do you object to asking a simple question here rather than cluttering up another board with what'd probably need to be a whole new thread?

Because there is another thread that is specifically for this 3PP material.

Yeah, after a bit of a detour in this thread (which is something that happens every 30 post or so at this point) we had to make a new thread for the KOP content. I don't mind it myself, I'm completely fine with answering short KOP questions here as long as it doesn't come to bigger questions, things I need to really get into in depth like "why does poison get so little love?"

KOP 3 reviews will get added soon once I get some free time, and if you want to discuss anything from KOP 1-3 should do so in the KOP discussion thread, and I'll keep the guide updated when new content comes out from Paizo.

[evilaustintom]

Y'all might want to consider the option of the Overwatch Style chain of feats. Two readied attacks by 7th level. 4 readied attacks by 15th level. It's feat-intensive (particularly for a feat-starved class), but an interesting option.

[Azten]

Luckily Kineticists aren't feat starved. Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Weapon Finesse with an optional Toughness if you feel you need it.

[evilaustintom]

Azten wrote:

Luckily Kineticists aren't feat starved. Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Weapon Finesse with an optional Toughness if you feel you need it.

I consider a class to be feat-starved if:

1. There are no bonus feats given by the class.
2. There are one to three feats that are almost required by most PC builds, before you can start looking at more optional feats.

[Azten]

Well if that's true then the Melee Kineticists with Physical Blasts have too many feats. Power Attack is pretty much all they need when they use Strength to hit.

[Tels]

evilaustintom wrote:

Azten wrote:

Luckily Kineticists aren't feat starved. Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Weapon Finesse with an optional Toughness if you feel you need it.

I consider a class to be feat-starved if:

1. There are no bonus feats given by the class.
2. There are one to three feats that are almost required by most PC builds, before you can start looking at more optional feats.

Your definition of feat starved is very different from the definition f feat starved of every other person I've ever met. Ever.

[Ravingdork]

Tels wrote:

evilaustintom wrote:

Azten wrote:

Luckily Kineticists aren't feat starved. Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Weapon Finesse with an optional Toughness if you feel you need it.

I consider a class to be feat-starved if:

1. There are no bonus feats given by the class.
2. There are one to three feats that are almost required by most PC builds, before you can start looking at more optional feats.

Your definition of feat starved is very different from the definition f feat starved of every other person I've ever met. Ever.

Really? It almost exactly matches mine.

[Ms. Pleiades]

Ravingdork wrote:

Tels wrote:

evilaustintom wrote:

Azten wrote:

Luckily Kineticists aren't feat starved. Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Weapon Finesse with an optional Toughness if you feel you need it.

I consider a class to be feat-starved if:

1. There are no bonus feats given by the class.
2. There are one to three feats that are almost required by most PC builds, before you can start looking at more optional feats.

Your definition of feat starved is very different from the definition f feat starved of every other person I've ever met. Ever.

Really? It almost exactly matches mine.

I'm with 'dork on that front. I'd much rather have "Oof, which one should I choose?" as a problem rather than "How many more levels before I've taken all the false-sense-of-freedom choices before my build isn't crippled?"

[Deadmanwalking]

I'd tend to agree with Tels definition (if not statement that I've never had anyone disagree), to be honest. If you can have all the necessary Feats at 1st level as a Human (or 3rd if not), I don't consider you Feat starved.

And a Kineticist really can get by with just either Weapon Finesse or Point Blank Shot and Precise Shot. Maybe with Iron Will thrown on.

That's 1-2 Feats necessary. 4 if you want to hedge your bets and be a switch hitter to boot.

That's...a pretty standard number of Feats, really. Melee characters mostly need either Weapon Finesse or Power Attack, so the Kineticist is right on par there. If she wants to abuse Reach, Combat Reflexes is great as well...but that's true of anyone who wants to abuse reach. It's an add-on, not a requirement.

As for ranged...Kineticists are doing at least as well on the Feat front as, say, an Archer Ranger. Probably better, since they can take the two Feats at 1st as a Human (just like the Archer) and then never take any more Feats to make their basic fighting style work. The Ranger could theoretically never use any more beyond Bonus Feats, but they probably need at least one more for Deadly Aim.

Really, even full casters tend to have a required Feat or two on top of their bonus Feats (Druids need Wild Shape, for example).

And so on. I actually can't think of any builds that don't have a required Feat to make them work. A Fighter can theoretically take those only with their Bonus Feats..,but they need so many things to boost them up to be competent it's gonna cost some normal Feats at some point.

Any Class that doesn't always require the same Feats (and there are some) does so by having widely divergent builds that need different Feats available, not by actually needing less in practice.

[Squiggit]

Ravingdork wrote:

Really? It almost exactly matches mine.

I understand the principle and don't much care for required feats either, but.. one feat is 'starved'?

[Texas Snyper]

They really aren't feat starved at all. Melee need one feat, either power attack or weapon finesse. Ranged only need two feats, PBS and precise shot; the same as every other ranged build out there. Both sets use feats that a LOT of people like to house rule the melee ones as freebies and the ranged ones into a single feat. IF they want to switch hit then they need all 3 but that's entirely optional. The other entirely optional ones are toughness and weapon focus. So outside the 1/2 'mandatory' ones, or 3 if you want to switch hit, kineticists can go any feat path they desire as long as they meat the requirements.

Please explain to me how 'needing' the 1/2 feats that a lot of people already house rule out and most combat builds already require is being feat starved.

[Chess Pwn]

because that's all your feats till lv5 or lv7!

[Texas Snyper]

And every single one of them is nearly universally agreed upon that they are problem feats. The issue is the feats and not the class.

If, at your table, power attack is a combat option and finesse is a weapon quality then great! If precise shot and PBS are a single feat then spectacular. If not then they're feats that anybody that doesn't just solely sling spells need.

[Azten]

To get on a different Topic, I'm playing a Briarborn(3rd party class on the pfsrd) Kineticist/Ranger gestalt with a focus on melee. He's also the High Priest in our Kingmaker campaign, and currently draws his fire from worship of the Dawnflower.

I've been considering branching out into Wood(pun intended) because it's both very thematic and has the plant growth wild talent. I'm just wondering if the talent is worth it at the level I'll be able to pick it up, level 14(!). It just seems so long to wait, especially on the Slow Experiance track.

[Worldthorn]

Noticed the typo. Briarborn is a race, not a class. >.>

[Ravingdork]

I've always seen kineticists as feat starved as there really aren't any super great feats for them other than those that were mentioned above, which are pretty much "must haves" for any kineticist--so much so that they really aren't optional.

As was said, it's an illusion of choice. And everything after that doesn't appreciably help you all that much.

In short, kineticists don't have a whole lot of synergy with most feats out there.