Also don't forget that the annihilator can benefit from haste effects, and that when push comes to shove, the annihilator can just use the regular kinds of blasts if she comes across a situation where that's a better call.
That is a good point Mark, but the question is: How often does the EA NEED to fall back on regular in order to keep up on damage? If the answer is more often than not, then you have to start to wonder why anyone would use EA in the first place
Yeah, so I ran the numbers and normal is basically ahead in damage except for at 6+ when a haste effect is involved. The +1 to attack helps the normal a little bit with the accuracy issue, but that combined with the extra attack brings the EA ahead by a handful of points. I didn't go beyond level 7, but I expect it's a fairly close race as it goes up. EA probably gets big jumps when it earns an extra attack, but normal steadily closes the gap again with its ever-increasing damage dice.
The action economy is similar (normal uses a Move action to Gather Power to use Empower for "free", and gets free Extended Range thanks to Infusion Specialization; EA uses full-round to Flurry for "free" thanks to Infusion Specialization). Both can also decide to not gather power and use a normal blast (with or w/o burn) and still stay mobile as well.
EA can shoot it's flurry at multiple targets if need be, but normal has a similar infusion that it can still use since it's form infusion isn't used up by a class feature (essentially). Though again, I suppose the EA can still choose a couple form infusions to give it some options other than Devastating/Flurry.
The math also seems to indicate that Deadly Aim isn't worth it for the normal build. Someone feel free to check that though (and any of my above math statements; I'm no where near perfect).
EA get's some bonus feats over the regular, but will use these to keep up in the damage department (stuff like Deadly Aim and Rapid Shot that the normal wouldn't want/need). Alternatively, the normal build is getting some decent utility features; though since EA is focused on damage, the comparison should probably stick mostly to DPS comparisons, as damage vs utility starts to get into an apples/oranges kind of discussion....
There's a few other considerations:
Chess Pwn wasn't necessarily trying to optimize the annihilator (for instance, I believe that Rapid Shot instead of Deadly Aim is significantly better at level 4 in all situations except against DR, since both give a -2 to hit, but Rapid Shot gives 1d8+4/5 more damage instead of +4 damage EDIT: Chess Pwn correctly points out that Rapid only helps at 6 and thus he takes it precisely then; my foolishness!), and the level where only the annihilator has Precise Shot is significant (the normal kineticist is going to have some pain from not having it). If they were both human to give the normal kineticist Precise at 1st, then the annihilator could get Rapid even sooner. Other than super min/maxing the starting stats (or being a hobgoblin maybe), it looks like he went really modestly and didn't even buy items (the stat increase was from overflow); each buff that he adds onto that chassis adds more to the annihilator (for instance, each +2 Con gives 1.5 damage to the regular modifier by accuracy, but it gives 1 per hit to the annihilator).
Also, annihilator gains damage at higher level faster than you might expect past level 7; it's easy to underestimate the amount of damage that +1 hit/damage adds to a full attack routine. In fact, in some ways level 7 is right before some pretty big leaps. Level 8 sees a +4 damage (increasing damage per hit from 14.5 to 18.5, so over 25%) due to increase Deadly Aim and Weapon Specialization, without increasing the normal's damage. Level 9 is actually also really good for the annihilator, while the normal gets another dice, the annihilator gets +2 hit and +1 damage over normal (from BAB and blast training). By 11, you're looking at the normal kineticist being able to supercharge, and thus do a composite, but it's not going to hold up to the annihilators 4 attacks (5 with haste). Still, the normal kineticist does solid damage too, I would never say otherwise. ;)
Finally, if you don't have haste in your party, it's pretty common to eventually buy boots of speed, from what I've seen, so I factor in the possibility of haste when running math (considering the gold cost of the boots, though, of course).
How about we use the numbers/leves you already calculated (minus the 1.5 Empower multiplier for Flurry of Devastation), and use the average AC by CR provided by Paizo here? And just compare to the AC of an equal CR creature?
So:
CR/Level 1 = 12 AC
CR/Level 2 = 14 AC
CR/Level 3 = 15 AC
CR/Level 4 = 17 AC
CR/Level 5 = 18 AC
CR/Level 6 = 19 AC
CR/Level 7 = 20 AC
CR/Level 1 = 12 AC
normal +4(5) 1d6+5(6) DPR:5.53 (6.65)Annihilator +5(6) 1d8+4(5) DPR:5.95 (7.125)
CR/Level 2 = 14 AC
normal +5(6) 1d6+5(6) DPR:5.10 (6.18)
Annihilator +6(7) 1d8+4(5) DPR:5.525 (6.65)
CR/Level 3 = 15 AC
normal +7(8) 2d6+8(9) DPR:9.75 (11.2)
Annihilator +8(9) 1d8+4(5) DPR:5.95 (7.125)
+7(8) 1d8+6(7) DPR:6.825 (8.05)
CR/Level 4 = 17 AC
normal +8(9) 2d6+8(9) DPR:9 (10.4)
Annihilator +9(10) 1d8+4(5) DPR:5.525 (6.65)
+7(8) 1d8+8(9) DPR:6.875 (8.1)
CR/Level 5 = 18 AC
normal +8(9) 3d6+9(10) x 1.5 DPR:16.09 (18.45)
+7(8) 3d6+11(12) x 1.5 DPR:16.125 (18.56)
Annihilator +12(13) 1d8+5(6) DPR:7.125 (8.4)
+10(11) 1d8+9(10) DPR:8.775 (10.15)
CR/Level 6 = 19 AC
normal +11(12) 3d6+12(13) x 1.5 DPR:21.94 (24.675)
+9(10) 3d6+16(17) x 1.5 DPR:21.86 (24.75)
Hasted normal +12(13) 3d6+12(13) x 1.5 DPR:23.625 (26.438)
+10(11) 3d6+16(17) x 1.5 DPR:23.85 (26.81)
Annihilator +15(16)/+10(11) 1d8+6(7) DPR:15.225 (17.825)
+13(14)/+8(9) 1d8+10(11) DPR:18.125 (20.925)
Hasted Anni +16(17)/+16(17)/+11(12) 1d8+6(7) DPR:25.725 (29.9)
+14(15)/+14(15)/+9(10) 1d8+10(11) DPR:31.175 (35.65)
CR/Level 7 = 20 AC
normal +13(14) 4d6+13(14) x 1.5 DPR:28.35 (31.5)
+11(12) 4d6+17(18) x 1.5 DPR:27.9 (31.2)
Hasted normal +14(15) 4d6+13(14) x 1.5 DPR:30.375 (33.6)
+12(13) 4d6+17(18) x 1.5 DPR:30.225 (33.6)
Annihilator +16(17)/+11(12) 1d8+6(7) DPR:15.225 (17.825)
+14(15)/+14(15)/+9(10) 1d8+6(7) DPR:21 (24.725)
+14(15)/+9(10) 1d8+10(11) DPR:18.125 (20.925)
+12(13)/+12(13)/+7(8) 1d8+10(11) DPR:24.65 (28.675)
Hasted Anni +17(18)/+17(18)/+12(13) 1d8+6(7) DPR:25.725 (29.9)
+15(16)/+15(16)/+15(16)/+10(11) 1d8+6(7) DPR:30.975 (36.225)
+15(16)/+15(16)/+10(11) 1d8+10(11) DPR:31.175 (35.65)
+13(14)/+13(14)/+13(14)/+8(9) 1d8+10(11) DPR:36.975 (42.625)
There's a few other considerations:
Chess Pwn wasn't necessarily trying to optimize the feat path for the annihilator (for instance, I believe that Rapid Shot instead of Deadly Aim is significantly better at level 4 in all situations except against DR, since both give a -2 to hit, but Rapid Shot gives 1d8+4/5 more damage instead of +4 damage), and the level where only the annihilator has Precise Shot is significant (the normal kineticist is going to have some pain from not having it). If they were both human to give the normal kineticist Precise at 1st, then the annihilator could get Rapid even sooner. Other than super min/maxing the starting stats (or being a hobgoblin maybe), it looks like he went really modestly and didn't even buy items (the stat increase was from overflow); each buff that he adds onto that chassis adds more to the annihilator (for instance, each +2 Con gives 1.5 damage to the regular modifier by accuracy, but it gives 1 per hit to the annihilator).
You can't use rapid shot till you get flurry of devastation at lv6. so you can take it at 5 and wait a level or wait a level till 7 to get it. Hence why I didn't take it lv3, and I opted to wait till 7 for it.
And yes I didn't use magic items, this was a simple overview to get a baseline. I agree the the Annihilator gets more use from bonuses, but only lv6+Also, annihilator gains damage at higher level faster than you might expect past level 7; it's easy to underestimate the amount of damage that +1 hit/damage adds to a full attack routine. In fact, in some ways level 7 is right before some pretty big leaps. Level 8 sees a +4 damage (increasing damage per hit from 14.5 to 18.5, so over 25%) due to increase Deadly Aim and Weapon Specialization, without increasing the normal's damage. Level 9 is actually also really good for the annihilator, while the normal gets another dice, the annihilator gets +2 hit and +1 damage over normal (from BAB and blast training). By 11, you're looking at the normal kineticist being able to supercharge, and thus do a composite, but it's not going to hold up to the annihilators 4 attacks (5 with haste). Still, the normal kineticist does solid damage too, I would never say otherwise. ;)
Finally, if you don't have haste in your party, it's pretty common to eventually buy boots of speed, from what I've seen, so I factor in the possibility of haste when running math (considering the gold cost of the boots, though, of course).
I agree, higher you go the more Annihilator gets extra bonuses. perhaps I'll run another 5 levels later and show what that looks like.
There's a few other considerations:
Chess Pwn wasn't necessarily trying to optimize the feat path for the annihilator (for instance, I believe that Rapid Shot instead of Deadly Aim is significantly better at level 4 in all situations except against DR, since both give a -2 to hit, but Rapid Shot gives 1d8+4/5 more damage instead of +4 damage), and the level where only the annihilator has Precise Shot is significant (the normal kineticist is going to have some pain from not having it). If they were both human to give the normal kineticist Precise at 1st, then the annihilator could get Rapid even sooner. Other than super min/maxing the starting stats (or being a hobgoblin maybe), it looks like he went really modestly and didn't even buy items (the stat increase was from overflow); each buff that he adds onto that chassis adds more to the annihilator (for instance, each +2 Con gives 1.5 damage to the regular modifier by accuracy, but it gives 1 per hit to the annihilator).
You can't use rapid shot till you get flurry of devastation at lv6. so you can take it at 5 and wait a level or wait a level till 7 to get it. Hence why I didn't take it lv3, and I opted to wait till 7 for it.
And yes I didn't use magic items, this was a simple overview to get a baseline. I agree the the Annihilator gets more use from bonuses, but only lv6+Also, annihilator gains damage at higher level faster than you might expect past level 7; it's easy to underestimate the amount of damage that +1 hit/damage adds to a full attack routine. In fact, in some ways level 7 is right before some pretty big leaps. Level 8 sees a +4 damage (increasing damage per hit from 14.5 to 18.5, so over 25%) due to increase Deadly Aim and Weapon Specialization, without increasing the normal's damage. Level 9 is actually also really good for the annihilator, while the normal gets another dice, the annihilator gets +2 hit and +1 damage over normal (from BAB and blast training). By 11, you're...
Oh yeah, duh! Sometimes I miss something obvious when I try to respond to threads mid-work, but it's too much fun.
Anyways, saying that you went for a baseline is not a knock on your methodology; I think baselines are really useful, and as I said in my earlier post, I thought your analysis was great, just mentioning what your methodology is for Raiziel.
Comparing kinetic blade/whip with annihilator will require a lot of numbers with the annihilator having the option to Two-Weapon Fight or two-hand for 1.5xCon damage. Good luck Chess Pwn or anybody else daring to do so.
Actually, Mark, if the Annihilator decides to two-hand his melee devastating infusion for 1.5xCon damage, would that still count as a light weapon or would it have to be considered a one-handed weapon? I'm assuming the latter to keep it in line with regular light weapon rules regarding Strength modifiers.
Comparing kinetic blade/whip with annihilator can get a lil tricky what with the annihilator having the option to Two-Weapon Fight or two-hand for 1.5xCon damage.
Actually, Mark, if the Annihilator decides to two-hand his melee devastating infusion for 1.5xCon damage, would that still count as a light weapon or would it have to be considered a one-handed weapon? I'm assuming the latter to keep it in line with regular light weapon rules regarding Strength modifiers.
Agreed.
Also, annihilator gains damage at higher level faster than you might expect past level 7; it's easy to underestimate the amount of damage that +1 hit/damage adds to a full attack routine. In fact, in some ways level 7 is right before some pretty big leaps. Level 8 sees a +4 damage (increasing damage per hit from 14.5 to 18.5, so over 25%) due to increase Deadly Aim and Weapon Specialization, without increasing the normal's damage.... If the normal kineticist is using kinetic whip on a full attack (akin to the elemental annihilator taking a full attack), then level 8 is an important level for a normal kineticist as that's where BAB=+6, granting an extra swing. Granted, a physical blast is going to have trouble hitting with that iterative against level appropriate AC, but if it's an energy blast, that iterative becomes very relevant, I would think.
If I'm reading the numbers right, we've been comparing an elemental annihilator's full attack to an empowered blast from a kineticist, but what about a kineticist's regular full attack under kinetic whip/blade?
Energy whip loses the overflow bonus that the normal kineticist was previously getting to damage (as well as Deadly Aim, since touch can't Deadly Aim or Power Attack), but it can often do the most damage if the monster doesn't resist your energy or have high SR. This does lock you into melee to do it, though. The annihilator can potentially have her cake and eat it too by taking blade and whip (can get them promptly with Extra Wild Talent or slowly otherwise) and an energy blast with expanded element, thus allowing her to build entirely ranged + just Weapon Finesse for melee and then be excellent at both melee and ranged, and ready for all situations (use whip in melee if the energy type/SR is favorable, otherwise use flurry of devastation every time).
Yeah, I wasn't factoring in haste, which is why I didn't see the damage advantage of Annihilator; was also looking at lower levels, and sounds like the gap grows bigger at higher levels.
Also, the fact that the Annihilator can basically fall back on doing whatever the normal Kineticist can do whenever there is a slight advantage means they are prepared for more situations. Devastating/Flurry are basically extra options the Annihilator has in order to maximize damage whenever the situation would make it preferable.
So basically, it gives up non-combat versatility (Utility Wild Talents) for combat versatility via extra combat-focused feats and 2 unique infusions.
Precisely. An incisively-built annihilator, once the build hits its stride (and also at the levels where you need to have more than one trick to win the pony show), is ready with consistently good damage output in pretty much any combat situation, from melee, to ranged, to multi-target or AoE. Non-combat? Not his rodeo. Also omnicide is hilariously damaging at level 20.
Probably not the exact place to ask this, but Im curious if anybody had heard about the possibility of archetypes for other classes that mimic the Occult classes, with special interest in the Kineticist. Usually after a class comes out, archetypes (whether official or 3pp) come out for other classes that sort of mimic the original class, like the Sanctified Slayer or Nature Fang. I was wondering if that was something anyone had mentioned the option of doing. If certain classes already have an archetype like that, my apologies. Im just curious to see what kind of combinations could result from things like that. Though, I suppose combining Kineticist with other classes would probably be hard to do.
Some classes (such as (magus and and investigator) got psychic magic archetypes. More occultish archetypes in the Occult Adventures and Occult Origins books.
Yeah, I did know about those archetypes. Especially the Esoteric and Mindblade Magi, as I'd been heavily considering them for a punch magus build. But good to know I haven't missed anything, so thank you both.
Probably not the exact place to ask this, but Im curious if anybody had heard about the possibility of archetypes for other classes that mimic the Occult classes, with special interest in the Kineticist. Usually after a class comes out, archetypes (whether official or 3pp) come out for other classes that sort of mimic the original class, like the Sanctified Slayer or Nature Fang. I was wondering if that was something anyone had mentioned the option of doing. If certain classes already have an archetype like that, my apologies. Im just curious to see what kind of combinations could result from things like that. Though, I suppose combining Kineticist with other classes would probably be hard to do.
Not yet, but you are right. It's something I have been thinking about for a personal project I showed N. Jolly.
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Probably not the exact place to ask this, but Im curious if anybody had heard about the possibility of archetypes for other classes that mimic the Occult classes, with special interest in the Kineticist. Usually after a class comes out, archetypes (whether official or 3pp) come out for other classes that sort of mimic the original class, like the Sanctified Slayer or Nature Fang. I was wondering if that was something anyone had mentioned the option of doing. If certain classes already have an archetype like that, my apologies. Im just curious to see what kind of combinations could result from things like that. Though, I suppose combining Kineticist with other classes would probably be hard to do.Not yet, but you are right. It's something I have been thinking about for a personal project I showed N. Jolly.
Mort's ideas are pretty interesting, I'd enjoy seeing them expanded upon. Nothing that I'm adding really fits the mold of what you're looking for, although the new elements I'm working with DO help with alternative playstyles for the kineticist. Nothing that I'd say is a pseudo class replacement for archetypes though.
Interested all the same though, good to hear.
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So I was driving around yesterday, doing my job, and thinking during the long drive about my home game kineticist. Thinking is a dangerous thing to do, but this time it may have paid off dividends.
Flanking. There's a lot of ways of pumping the +2 bonus granted by flanking. Outflank(APG) bumps the +2 to +4. Militia trait(Dragon Empires Primer) raises it another +1. The menacing enchantment(APG) (on, say, a gauntlet) raises it another +2. Rings of Tactical Precision(UltEq) in combination with Outflank raise it a further +1. They all stack. I'm not exactly a mathlympian, but a quick perusal shows an 'easy' +6 above the regular +2 granted by flanking for a total of +8. That's a sizable bonus and all you need is a warm body that can get to the other side of your target and wear a ring. It's so sizable a bonus, I'd wager a melee kineticist could then snag Power Attack and go to town, gaining another scaling damage boost to offset the loss of Elemental Overflow. Or Piranha Strike, if you dumped Str. Same difference.
A quick perusal of the guide shows no mention of any of these. Update time?
Not gonna lie, that's some impressive optimization of flanking. The only issue is that it isn't really kineticist specific. Like it's more of a build style than anything else, one that could work for anything, and for this guide, I'm looking for things that are more specific to a kineticist. For a rogue guide, I probably would include that, and as much as I hate saying it, I've half been thinking of doing an unchained rogue guide.
Also while it might have not been for this guide, shout outs to the last person to donate to the guide, I always appreciate the support. I mean I want my guides to always be free and such to help the community, but things like this help make me feel appreciated, and that's always aces.
EDIT: I wanted to say "No one tells ME when it's update time!", but then I remembered that people tell me when it's update time all the time, like it's super helpful to have them bring new things to my attention so my guides are up to date. So yeah, feel free to tell me when it's update time, I wouldn't know otherwise.
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While not specific to the kineticist, a kineticist benefits heavily from it. Granted not as much as a rogue, as our big damage comes regardless of positioning, but it does shore up physical blasts perceived weakness of lower accuracy.
My apologies if my prior post ruffled your feathers so to speak, I certainly didn't intend to offend, but to suggest inclusion of this fairly potent stack of accuracy boosting effects.
Nah, I was just messing with you, sometimes I miss things that need to be included.
Personally, I don't think this is specific enough to kineticist to include, although if anyone else wants to weigh in, I'm up for discussing it.
if you do think to include it I think making it a sample build, or a build idea would be the place to put it.
For a rogue guide, I probably would include that, and as much as I hate saying it, I've half been thinking of doing an unchained rogue guide.
I'd be interested in your take on a Rouge guide. Though I won't lie, I think taking on a Rouge guide is extremely difficult since table and playstyle variance seem too effect it so much more drastically than any other class. I've noted this before, but some people treat the rouge as the guy with a funky mechanic for DPS, others the trapfinder, and some try to become the master of rollplaying and roleplaying milking any crazy plan they can come up with for maximum returns. Like my style of being the git that switches sides like a revolving door always coming around to betray their new BFFs for the party. (Have I mentioned lately I love Kitsune?)
And then there's the folks like me who opt to build their rogue for debuffing, combining debilitating injury with enforcer and thug to stack shaken, sickened, and db inj for a nice chunk of -4 to hit, saves, skills, -2 damage, and -2 AC.
But that's totally off topic.
You forgot Dirty Trick maneuver.
Okay. This might be a silly question and not really logical but I'm looking at Void Kineticist and I'm wondering...
What is the rule that makes Construct immune to Negative Energy?
Undead had the text saying that negative energy heal them in their traits. But constructs doesn't seems to have anything like that. The reason Channel Negative Energy doesn't work on them is because Channel energy says its only work on Living or Undead.
So.. Can you defy all common sense and use Negative Blast to hurt Construct by RAW?
It certainly does seem so. The contstruct type mentions being immune to death effects and energy drain, both of which are commonly delivered via negative energy, but aren't explicitly listed as immune to it. At the same time, 'negative energy' is never defined within the rules, similar to how 'precision damage' is never defined either. At the same time, neither is fire, cold, slashing, bludgeoning etc. defined in the rules.
I just went and looked through a bunch of sources of negative energy and... except for the Cleric entry, none of them are restricted to harming only living creatures. The difference is, all other sources either have a Fort save attached, or are considered necromancy effects, both of which constructs are (normally) immune to. Also, side note, just noticed the Anti-Paladin doesn't use negative energy with his Touch of Corruption; it simply says he 'deals damage' and doesn't specify a 'type' of damage.
So... I'm going to have to assume that, yes, void kineticists can, in fact, harm constructs.
And we're super off topic.
Well, this is an N. Jolly guide thread and we were talking about N. Jolly guides so really it is you who have thrown us off topic with your unguided topics! Your guile misguided way will not beguile us away from guided discussions of guides.
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Okay. This might be a silly question and not really logical but I'm looking at Void Kineticist and I'm wondering...
What is the rule that makes Construct immune to Negative Energy?
Undead had the text saying that negative energy heal them in their traits. But constructs doesn't seems to have anything like that. The reason Channel Negative Energy doesn't work on them is because Channel energy says its only work on Living or Undead.
So.. Can you defy all common sense and use Negative Blast to hurt Construct by RAW?
It certainly does seem so. The contstruct type mentions being immune to death effects and energy drain, both of which are commonly delivered via negative energy, but aren't explicitly listed as immune to it. At the same time, 'negative energy' is never defined within the rules, similar to how 'precision damage' is never defined either. At the same time, neither is fire, cold, slashing, bludgeoning etc. defined in the rules.
I just went and looked through a bunch of sources of negative energy and... except for the Cleric entry, none of them are restricted to harming only living creatures. The difference is, all other sources either have a Fort save attached, or are considered necromancy effects, both of which constructs are (normally) immune to. Also, side note, just noticed the Anti-Paladin doesn't use negative energy with his Touch of Corruption; it simply says he 'deals damage' and doesn't specify a 'type' of damage.
So... I'm going to have to assume that, yes, void kineticists can, in fact, harm constructs.
I kind of have to admit I just always assumed negative energy couldn't hurt constructs due to the whole 'living thing' quality about how it hurt things. Was this a 3.5 thing I just didn't realize was updated? Guess I'll have to change that.
EDIT: I believe what makes them immune is that I don't think negative energy can hurt an object. Also the negative energy plane also only hurts living creatures, which to me really shows the intent of negative energy. This is also true of a negative energy elemental. By my interpretation, constructs are immune to negative energy, but if anyone has a rules cite to prove me wrong, I'd be glad to see it.
For a rogue guide, I probably would include that, and as much as I hate saying it, I've half been thinking of doing an unchained rogue guide.I'd be interested in your take on a Rouge guide. Though I won't lie, I think taking on a Rouge guide is extremely difficult since table and playstyle variance seem too effect it so much more drastically than any other class. I've noted this before, but some people treat the rouge as the guy with a funky mechanic for DPS, others the trapfinder, and some try to become the master of rollplaying and roleplaying milking any crazy plan they can come up with for maximum returns. Like my style of being the git that switches sides like a revolving door always coming around to betray their new BFFs for the party. (Have I mentioned lately I love Kitsune?)
To be honest, an Unchained Rogue guide would just be "Ratfolk and Human with Racial Heritage (Ratfolk) is so insanely good that it arguably renders every other race as non-viable by comparison". Scurrying Swarmer brings table variance on the Rogue's viability to zero.
To be honest, an Unchained Rogue guide would just be "Ratfolk and Human with Racial Heritage (Ratfolk) is so insanely good that it arguably renders every other race as non-viable by comparison". Scurrying Swarmer brings table variance on the Rogue's viability to zero.For a rogue guide, I probably would include that, and as much as I hate saying it, I've half been thinking of doing an unchained rogue guide.I'd be interested in your take on a Rouge guide. Though I won't lie, I think taking on a Rouge guide is extremely difficult since table and playstyle variance seem too effect it so much more drastically than any other class. I've noted this before, but some people treat the rouge as the guy with a funky mechanic for DPS, others the trapfinder, and some try to become the master of rollplaying and roleplaying milking any crazy plan they can come up with for maximum returns. Like my style of being the git that switches sides like a revolving door always coming around to betray their new BFFs for the party. (Have I mentioned lately I love Kitsune?)
A human, even one with Racial Heritage, can't take Scurrying Swarmer because they don't have the swarming racial ability. The human would only be considered Ratfolk, but not be considered to possess the Ratfolk's racial traits.
Ohh, right, blanked out a bit there.
That just makes it even more official that Ratfolk is the only acceptable Rogue race.
So yeah, not a rogue thread, so not really a relevant topic right now. If I get on that guide, we can discuss it there, but this isn't the place for it.
What if this actually is a rogue thread, and we've all been using our bluff checks with skill unlocks and you keep failing your sense motive? We've all been sitting here laughing at you talking about the Kineticist while we've been talking in code. o.0 0.o
Okay. This might be a silly question and not really logical but I'm looking at Void Kineticist and I'm wondering...
What is the rule that makes Construct immune to Negative Energy?
Undead had the text saying that negative energy heal them in their traits. But constructs doesn't seems to have anything like that. The reason Channel Negative Energy doesn't work on them is because Channel energy says its only work on Living or Undead.
So.. Can you defy all common sense and use Negative Blast to hurt Construct by RAW?
It certainly does seem so. The contstruct type mentions being immune to death effects and energy drain, both of which are commonly delivered via negative energy, but aren't explicitly listed as immune to it. At the same time, 'negative energy' is never defined within the rules, similar to how 'precision damage' is never defined either. At the same time, neither is fire, cold, slashing, bludgeoning etc. defined in the rules.
I just went and looked through a bunch of sources of negative energy and... except for the Cleric entry, none of them are restricted to harming only living creatures. The difference is, all other sources either have a Fort save attached, or are considered necromancy effects, both of which constructs are (normally) immune to. Also, side note, just noticed the Anti-Paladin doesn't use negative energy with his Touch of Corruption; it simply says he 'deals damage' and doesn't specify a 'type' of damage.
So... I'm going to have to assume that, yes, void kineticists can, in fact, harm constructs.
I kind of have to admit I just always assumed negative energy couldn't hurt constructs due to the whole 'living thing' quality about how it hurt things. Was this a 3.5 thing I just didn't realize was updated? Guess I'll have to change that.
EDIT: I believe what makes them immune is that I don't think negative energy can hurt an object. Also the negative energy plane also only hurts living creatures, which to me really...
Also doesn't one of the cleric domains grant the ability to heal/harm constructs with the channel ability (Artifice maybe)?
If it functioned on constructs that ability would be redundant and useless.
Not really. If the main one is Harm/Heal Living/Undead.. Things that are not living nor undead wouldn't be affected.
Robuts are neither living or undead.
Not really. If the main one is Harm/Heal Living/Undead.. Things that are not living nor undead wouldn't be affected.
Robuts are neither living or undead.
From memory, the ability specifically changes channel to function on constructs (and at half effect, for every 2d you get 1d effect IIRC). If channel normally functions on constructs, the ability is completely redundant and worse than normal channel.
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From memory, the ability specifically changes channel to function on constructs (and at half effect, for every 2d you get 1d effect IIRC). If channel normally functions on constructs, the ability is completely redundant and worse than normal channel.Not really. If the main one is Harm/Heal Living/Undead.. Things that are not living nor undead wouldn't be affected.
Robuts are neither living or undead.
This is basically how I'm reading it, that negative energy needs a living or unliving creature to affect, so constructs aren't affected. If I get confirmation one way or the other, I'll change it as needed. Also finally got my new content to the editors, so hopefully before christmas it'll be up on the guide as reviewed material.
Constructs not taking damage from negative energy is correct.
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Constructs not taking damage from negative energy is correct.
That's all well and good, but according to what, exactly?
Time for a new CRB FAQ!!! I tried searching and was kinda surprised about the fact that Negative Energy does not have a glossary entry. Time for a new print!!
This is basically how I'm reading it, that negative energy needs a living or unliving creature to affect, so constructs aren't affected. If I get confirmation one way or the other, I'll change it as needed. Also finally got my new content to the editors, so hopefully before christmas it'll be up on the guide as reviewed material.From memory, the ability specifically changes channel to function on constructs (and at half effect, for every 2d you get 1d effect IIRC). If channel normally functions on constructs, the ability is completely redundant and worse than normal channel.Not really. If the main one is Harm/Heal Living/Undead.. Things that are not living nor undead wouldn't be affected.
Robuts are neither living or undead.
I'm reading it from this part
Channeling energy causes a burst that affects all creatures of one type (either undead or living) in a 30-foot radius centered on the cleric.
Also I don't see any subdomains that allow you to channel energy on a construct.
However there is this
Forge Heal: Creatures in metal armor gain a channel bonus to Armor Class until the end of your next turn. Alternatively, you may repair damage to metal objects and metal constructs as if they were creatures, and this healing is enhanced. Harm: The damage effect is enhanced against metal constructs and unattended metal objects.
Even if the negitive energy was able to effect Constructs (Now they're immune to one damage type apparently) it wouldn't make the channeling effect any different, since, the primary chashie only has two target types. Living or Undead. If it doesn't fit into that catagory, it is neither.
And the immunity to negative energy makes me wonder about things here..