Take Throw Anything, and you're proficient in anything you throw.
Unfortunately that's not how Throw Anything works. It doesn't provide proficiency, it negates the -4 penalty.
Take Throw Anything, and you're proficient in anything you throw.Unfortunately that's not how Throw Anything works. It doesn't provide proficiency, it negates the -4 penalty.
You are trained in the use of basic weapons.
Benefit: You make attack rolls with simple weapons without penalty.
Normal: When using a weapon with which you are not proficient, you take a –4 penalty on attack rolls.
Special: All characters except for druids, monks, and wizards are automatically proficient with all simple weapons. They need not select this feat.
Choose a type of martial weapon. You understand how to use that type of martial weapon in combat.
Benefit: You make attack rolls with the selected weapon normally (without the non-proficient penalty).
Normal: When using a weapon with which you are not proficient, you take a –4 penalty on attack rolls.
Special: Barbarians, fighters, paladins, and rangers are proficient with all martial weapons. They need not select this feat.
You can gain Martial Weapon Proficiency multiple times. Each time you take the feat, it applies to a new type of weapon.
Choose one type of exotic weapon, such as the spiked chain or whip. You understand how to use that type of exotic weapon in combat, and can utilize any special tricks or qualities that exotic weapon might allow.
Prerequisite: Base attack bonus +1.
Benefit: You make attack rolls with the weapon normally.
Normal: A character who uses a weapon with which he is not proficient takes a –4 penalty on attack rolls.
Special: You can gain Exotic Weapon Proficiency multiple times. Each time you take the feat, it applies to a new type of exotic weapon.
Please point out where, exactly, in these feats it is that they grant proficiency? Notice that all of the 'benefits' sections state that they allow attacks without penalty or allow attacking normally. None of them, technically, grant proficiency.
Now, compare to Throw Anything and Catch Off-Guard:
You are used to throwing things you have on hand.
Benefit: You do not suffer any penalties for using an improvised ranged weapon. You receive a +1 circumstance bonus on attack rolls made with thrown splash weapons.
Normal: You take a –4 penalty on attack rolls made with an improvised weapon.
Foes are surprised by your skilled use of unorthodox and improvised weapons.
Benefit: You do not suffer any penalties for using an improvised melee weapon. Unarmed opponents are flat-footed against any attacks you make with an improvised melee weapon.
Normal: You take a –4 penalty on attack rolls made with an improvised weapon.
Very similar language and text to the 'proficiency' feats. If you allow someone to take the proficiency feat and become proficient, then you should allow Catch Off-Guard and Throw Anything to do the same. As it stands, for the most part, the only way to become proficient, by the RAW, is to take a class that makes you proficient.
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For N. Jolly: A trait that I think should work for Kineticists if they can ever have 2 hours downtime to recharge: Awakend From Stasis will allow you to reset your burn with only 2 hours of rest as a "full night's rest" is analogous in pathfinder to 8 hours of rest unless they are altering the rules for how the kineticist works again in order to prevent anything from working with it(which I understand in a way, but is also rather bothersome). Ring of sustenance does the same thing, and doesn't cost a lot of money(but personally I like to have an "always on" ability in case my magic items get stolen or etc.) If Mark has said this doesn't work anywhere, I apologize for taking up space.
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For N. Jolly: A trait that I think should work for Kineticists if they can ever have 2 hours downtime to recharge: Awakend From Stasis will allow you to reset your burn with only 2 hours of rest as a "full night's rest" is analogous in pathfinder to 8 hours of rest unless they are altering the rules for how the kineticist works again in order to prevent anything from working with it(which I understand in a way, but is also rather bothersome). Ring of sustenance does the same thing, and doesn't cost a lot of money(but personally I like to have an "always on" ability in case my magic items get stolen or etc.) If Mark has said this doesn't work anywhere, I apologize for taking up space.
Cool trait find! Theoretically, by stringent and unforgiving reading of the exact text, kineticist asks for a "full night's rest." However, I am 100% in favor of allowing the ring or the trait to let you recover burn in 2 hours (naturally, by this more lenient interpretation, you still couldn't do it more than once per day though).
For N. Jolly: A trait that I think should work for Kineticists if they can ever have 2 hours downtime to recharge: Awakend From Stasis will allow you to reset your burn with only 2 hours of rest as a "full night's rest" is analogous in pathfinder to 8 hours of rest unless they are altering the rules for how the kineticist works again in order to prevent anything from working with it(which I understand in a way, but is also rather bothersome). Ring of sustenance does the same thing, and doesn't cost a lot of money(but personally I like to have an "always on" ability in case my magic items get stolen or etc.) If Mark has said this doesn't work anywhere, I apologize for taking up space.
Considering it requires being from Apostae (the 10th planet in the solar system), you're pretty much not going to be any race from Golarion.
Stuff
I'll just say this... I disagree with your interpretation of the rules there and we'll leave it at that. I think we can agree to disagree.
For N. Jolly: A trait that I think should work for Kineticists if they can ever have 2 hours downtime to recharge: Awakend From Stasis will allow you to reset your burn with only 2 hours of rest as a "full night's rest" is analogous in pathfinder to 8 hours of rest unless they are altering the rules for how the kineticist works again in order to prevent anything from working with it(which I understand in a way, but is also rather bothersome). Ring of sustenance does the same thing, and doesn't cost a lot of money(but personally I like to have an "always on" ability in case my magic items get stolen or etc.) If Mark has said this doesn't work anywhere, I apologize for taking up space.Considering it requires being from Apostae (the 10th planet in the solar system), you're pretty much not going to be any race from Golarion.
Actually, the trait states that you were born and lived on Golarion, so you could be of any race native to Golarion without issue! Now, getting back to Golarion... well, that's a problem of itself lol.
Cool trait find! Theoretically, by stringent and unforgiving reading of the exact text, kineticist asks for a "full night's rest." However, I am 100% in favor of allowing the ring or the trait to let you recover burn in 2 hours (naturally, by this more lenient interpretation, you still couldn't do it more than once per day though).
Glad to see the kineticist getting some level from it's Creator, Mark! I truly love this class and like to see it getting some support on the little things!
On another note, I'm not sure if anyone has brought it up yet or not... A great way to get around the action economy would be to simply have a mount. (Granted, I'm not super savvy on mounted combat so I could be completely wrong and feel free to educate me if I am!) I have a great character concept of a halfling telekineticist with Childlike and Pass for Human feats and his trusty riding dog. An innocent little boy and his "puppy" pandering to the masses and lifting coin purses from 30' away...
I think a mount would be a great idea for a Pyrokinetic, much better than the Jet Blast talents. As a purely offensive blaster, you definitely WANT to Gather Power regularly. Same for any melee focused Kinetic, where you want to be able to move after having destroyed your enemy.
Not so much for my Aether/Air guy... Or Earth guy who wants to travel underground... but there are some great uses for a mount.
StuffI'll just say this... I disagree with your interpretation of the rules there and we'll leave it at that. I think we can agree to disagree.
I'm curious, which part do you disagree with? That the feats don't grant proficiency? None of the feats state they grant proficiency; there's no interpretation here.
Or that Catch Off-Guard and Throw Anything use very similar language to the proficiency feats? Because they do, and, again, is not an interpretation.
I honestly want to know which part it is you disagree with, because neither are interpretations.
StuffI'll just say this... I disagree with your interpretation of the rules there and we'll leave it at that. I think we can agree to disagree.I'm curious, which part do you disagree with? That the feats don't grant proficiency? None of the feats state they grant proficiency; there's no interpretation here.
Or that Catch Off-Guard and Throw Anything use very similar language to the proficiency feats? Because they do, and, again, is not an interpretation.
I honestly want to know which part it is you disagree with, because neither are interpretations.
I believe what Faelyn is saying is that, the damage of an Improvised Weapon (regardless if you have Throw Anything or not) is that of an Improvised Weapon, not the weapon given stats of that weapon (and of course, regardless of the weapon, only Crits on a 20 for double damage). Throw Anything doesn't let you use the weapon's default damage or Crit stuff, it just removes the -4 penalty. So if you "throw" a Falchion at someone, it does 1d6/20x2 damage, not 2d4/18-20x2.
I believe what Faelyn is saying is that, the damage of an Improvised Weapon (regardless if you have Throw Anything or not) is that of an Improvised Weapon, not the weapon given stats of that weapon (and of course, regardless of the weapon, only Crits on a 20 for double damage). Throw Anything doesn't let you use the weapon's default damage or Crit stuff, it just removes the -4 penalty. So if you "throw" a Falchion at someone, it does 1d6/20x2 damage, not 2d4/18-20x2.StuffI'll just say this... I disagree with your interpretation of the rules there and we'll leave it at that. I think we can agree to disagree.I'm curious, which part do you disagree with? That the feats don't grant proficiency? None of the feats state they grant proficiency; there's no interpretation here.
Or that Catch Off-Guard and Throw Anything use very similar language to the proficiency feats? Because they do, and, again, is not an interpretation.
I honestly want to know which part it is you disagree with, because neither are interpretations.
No, no he's not. Unless he has absolutely no clue of how to phrase such a thing, what he said is not related to the weapon's damage.
He made this post:
Take Throw Anything, and you're proficient in anything you throw.Unfortunately that's not how Throw Anything works. It doesn't provide proficiency, it negates the -4 penalty.
To which I responded with this post, which is too long to quote. Basically, it quotes all of the 'X Weapon Proficiency' feats, along with Catch Off-Guard and Throw Anything. If you read the feats, no where do they actually state you gain proficiency with the weapon chosen.
So, per RAW, if you take the feat Martial Weapon Proficiency (Longsword) you don't actually become proficient with it, as the only benefit of taking the feat is, and I quote, "You make attack rolls with the selected weapon normally (without the non-proficient penalty)."
Sure, you don't take the non-proficiency penalty, but you don't become proficient either. Catch Off-Guard and Throw Anything also remove the -4 penalty for using improvised weapons, and yet they don't grant proficiency.
He says he disagrees with my 'interpretation' of the rules. This is odd, as there is nothing to interpret. It'd be one thing if there was something ambiguous, but it's pretty clear here: you don't become proficient with weapons by taking feats to do so. At least, not according to the rules.
The best way to become proficient with a weapon, is to take a class proficient in that category.
Yeah Tels, I followed the conversation, which actually started with Legios saying:
You will note that "and if the object is a weapon, you must be proficient with it and able to wield it with one hand; otherwise, the item deals damage as a one-handed improvised weapon for a creature of your size." means that your car is doing 1d6+con damage on loosened strands blast.
Faelyn is saying that taking "Throw Anything" will not change the damage of the thrown object, if I understand him correctly.
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I feel like I just went to bootcamp. I just finished off a project of making 20 different kineticist builds at levels 1-20 including 1 of each archetype, and now combined with my playing of the class, I think I have a much stronger understanding of the class now, some things that I like and some things that I really don't like. Really this is just to give some idea of the direction that I would like to see things head in design wise. Yeah, it's off topic, but I do plan on being on topic at the end.
Liked
Probably the most fun thing was picking out utility wild talents, those tended to be my favorite to select. Having Expanded Defense at 8th level was nice for those earth/aether/water combos to be sure.
Not needing to pick up a magical weapon was nice too, gave no benefit to the class, and it's always nice not having that big money sink, although I mostly spent it on big 6 upgrades. Also had enough cash to generally pick up a headband for Wisdom, so basically a will save buff that helped with perception checks.
As an aside here, Aether is straight up the best tertiary choice of element due to a great defense, self TK/Greater, and telekinetic invisibility, as well as aetheric boost stacking with other composites, basically making your damage output tex mex sexy for a relatively low burn cost as long as you're meh on using other infusions with it. I consider Aether the best tertiary element, and I actually kind of appreciate that about it.
Mobility was also fun to set up as well, and yeah, I can see how some people could talk about how an animal companion could help, so with such a non feat intensive class, picking one up would be pretty easy via feats.
Didn't like
Picking out Infusions. Oh man, that odd level acquisition is so PAINFUL. Like seriously, because of this, almost every build ended up taking kinetic blade at 1st and extended range at 3rd because there was nothing better to take (burning infusion being an exception for fire.) With the lack of variety in early level picks as well as kinetic blade's overall usefulness, I'd go as far as to say it's mandatory to the class, which in turn makes weapon finesse just as vital.
It's not a problem mechanically, but it does really stifle building since it takes until 4th/6th level where you're getting more viable infusions (for some elements...), as well as the lack of infusion at 7th for non 'pure' kineticist made certain talents feel like I was being lied to in their level, since for all intents and purposes, kinetic whip is a 4th level power since expanded element won't let you get it.
It doesn't feel like a balance thing, so really, I'm going to just homebrew a feat here, you can all use it if you want, for kineticist in my game, it's going to be available.
Kinetic Prodigy
Prerequisite(s): Kineticist 3rd
Benefit: You may consider yourself 1 level higher for the purposes of selecting infusion wild talents. In addition, any kinetic blast you use that is altered by an infusion gains a +1 bonus to damage. At 8th level, and again at 16th level, increase this bonus by 1. In any round in which you accept burn due to using an infusion, increase this bonus by 1.
EDIT: If the increases at 8th and 16th level are too much for your group, drop them, but at the late levels they come into play, most people aren't going to care about 1 more additional damage on an attack that doesn't hit multiple times. And for those curious, I would rate this feat blue, since I still don't think it's super vital for every build.
Personally, I think the class really lacks a lot of feats worth taking, I'd like to see more class specific feats for this like the one listed above. Also Aether and Water didn't really have a 'trademark' utility wild talent like air (air's reach), fire (fire's fury), and earth (enduring earth), and I'd like to see them get one since those were some of my favorites.
On Topic
Sorry, just wanted to get that all out people. Now that I'm done with that little detour, work's going to begin again on the guide, the magic item section, going to try to include some of the gems I found while working on the other characters, but aside from fun things (dust of dryness/endless decanter shenanigans), it's all standard fair.
Thanks for being patient with me all, and on a second unrelated note, I seriously hope Ultimate Intrigue has an archetype I'm in love with, or it might be the first hardcover that introduces a new class that I DON'T have a guide for.
I made a similar Feat proposition in the Homebrew forums here. But just the +1 level higher is enough to make a world of difference... I think increasing damage is too much... but could just be me.
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I made a similar Feat proposition in the Homebrew forums here. But just the +1 level higher is enough to make a world of difference... I think increasing damage is too much... but could just be me.
The damage is just there as a throw in, I could even ditch the increase at 8th and 16th, it's just something small to make it feel like it does more, and considering the main sources of damage at that point (8th you're at composite, and 16th you're at even bigger blast), an extra 2-3 damage isn't going to make a world of difference. We could argue it's better than weapon specialization, but comparing anything to weapon specialization is insulting.
I feel like just the +1 level makes it feel too much like a bandaid, so the +1 to damage is there to make it feel more like a full fledged feat instead of one that's fixing a problem, as well as to encourage new people to take it. A new player might not see the value in the feat initially, but if they can get a little extra damage from it, it looks a lot better.
EDIT: It's better for an elemental annihilator, but meh, those people are pure damage anyways, giving them a little more isn't the end of the world.
Aether's trademark is almost unquestionably either Basic TK and its modifications, or Foe Throw. Throwing folks around just screams telekineticist to me. All over the place.
As an infusion, yes. I was talking more about how the three utility wild talents I mentioned changed blast in a fundamental way while still feeling flavorful and such. I love foe throw, it's the 2nd best thing the TK can do (Aetheric Boost Composite Blast master race), but there's nothing that feels like those 3 for water and aether.
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With Self TK and Flame Jet, it says that all movement upwards cost double. Thinking 3-dimensional movement, going up while advancing forward would be 10-30-40-60, resulting in only advancing 20 feet forward, while increasing height by 20 feet, correct?
All options would be:
- 55 feet forward, 5 feet up.
- 40 feet forward, 10 feet up.
- 35 feet forward, 15 feet up.
- 20 feet forward, 20 feet up.
- 15 feet forward, 25 feet up.
- 10 feet forward, 25 feet up.
- 5 feet forward, 30 feet up.
- 0 feet forward, 30 feet up.
Aetheric Boost Composite Blast is way less damage than an Empowered Composite Blast for the same burn (at 16). The only actual damage gain is going on an Empowered Aetheric Composite blast, for 1 burn a pop.
Getting differents Composites for differents damage resistance is probably the better choice for pure damage. Without considering that both Fire and Earth could benefit a lot from "doubling up" at 16 to access Blue Flame and Metal Blast.
Aether in my experience remains a bad choice even as third. I agree however that the defense is great.
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Aetheric Boost Composite Blast is way less damage than an Empowered Composite Blast for the same burn (at 16). The only actual damage gain is going on an Empowered Aetheric Composite blast, for 1 burn a pop.
Getting differents Composites for differents damage resistance is probably the better choice for pure damage. Without considering that both Fire and Earth could benefit a lot from "doubling up" at 16 to access Blue Flame and Metal Blast.
Aether in my experience remains a bad choice even as third. I agree however that the defense is great.
Oh, I totally agree with you here, I'm just saying that past 7th level, aether is the only way to increase damage here (aside from quicken/double), and getting extra damage on a solo attack (supercharge + infusion specialist) makes it a solid boost to damage if you're only going for damage. I'll stand by aether as a 3rd (or a second if you're allowed to build from 15+) since it gets a lot of nice utility talents which are generally very useful.
Also saw your homebrew feats Sphynx, they seem pretty interesting.
With Self TK and Flame Jet, it says that all movement upwards cost double. Thinking 3-dimensional movement, going up while advancing forward would be 10-30-40-60, resulting in only advancing 20 feet forward, while increasing height by 20 feet, correct?
I'm going to say yes off the top of my head, but if anyone has a more specific example of how this would work, I'd love to hear it.
One obscure magic item I might mention for cryokineticists would be truefrost elixir, though it might not be allowed in every game since it's from an Adventure Path. Was a little disappointed it didn't get reprinted in Occult Adventures along with variants for at least fire and electricity...
Great find! It's a shame there's not one for fire, it'd be amazing! I just wish there was a pure ice blast, although cold resist/immunity is the second most common from what I remember, so this is still a solid item.
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Aether composite shines at 19 when you can get a free empower. Then it becomes:
Composite Blast - 2 Burn, Reduce by 1 by Composite Specialization
Add Aether - 1 Burn
Add Empower - 1 Burn reduced by 1 by Metakinetic Master
so for 0 burn at 19 you can do an empowered Aether/Composite Blast for
1.5 x 20d6 + 20 + 20 + Con for physical or
1.5 x 20d6 + 20 + 1/2 Con for energy
all for 0 burn. Assuming 30 Con for easy math thats an average damage of:
Physical 180 dmg
Energy 150 dmg
If you did Maximize for Metakinetic Master then you damage at 19 would be
120 + 20 + 10 or 150 for Physical
120 + 10 for 130 for Energy
For 19+ Play Aether is going to be a really good third choice.
Picking out Infusions. Oh man, that odd level acquisition is so PAINFUL. Like seriously, because of this, almost every build ended up taking kinetic blade at 1st and extended range at 3rd because there was nothing better to take (burning infusion being an exception for fire.) With the lack of variety in early level picks as well as kinetic blade's overall usefulness, I'd go as far as to say it's mandatory to the class, which in turn makes weapon finesse just as vital.
If you have an energy blast, I could see going without finesse for a character that is going to avoid melee. Attacking touch AC is a wonderful thing. Then again, the class generally has plenty of feats free.
N. Jolly: SO how would you rate going aether into earth and then into either air or water? I'm looking at creating an aether 'rogue' character.
With Self TK and Flame Jet, it says that all movement upwards cost double. Thinking 3-dimensional movement, going up while advancing forward would be 10-30-40-60, resulting in only advancing 20 feet forward, while increasing height by 20 feet, correct?
All options would be:
- 55 feet forward, 5 feet up.
- 40 feet forward, 10 feet up.
- 35 feet forward, 15 feet up.
- 20 feet forward, 20 feet up.
- 15 feet forward, 25 feet up.
- 10 feet forward, 25 feet up.
- 5 feet forward, 30 feet up.
- 0 feet forward, 30 feet up.
I'm gonna assume diagonally upward movement is similar to the fly spell and keep note of this FAQ.
No. Since the game is generally assumed to be played in two dimensions, even when representing three dimensional combat, the rules for ascending are handled by the speed reduction instead of asking players and GMs to ascertain the diagonal vertical movement.
Basically don't worry about diagonally (1-2-1-2x movement cost) when moving up.
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N. Jolly: SO how would you rate going aether into earth and then into either air or water? I'm looking at creating an aether 'rogue' character.
Let's accept that it would be impossible for me to rate going from one element into another for all possible combinations. As long as that's not being expected of me, I can answer this by itself.
Earth into Air Blue
Earth is strong, it has its solo power, and air is a GREAT addition to it for a few reasons. The composite blast is solid (assuming you're going air blast), and a lot of air's best talents are early game. Not to mention Air Shroud works GREAT with Earth Glide, giving you an always available supply of air, and Wings of Air gives you a flight option as early as 10th level. Combined with Air's Reach and Ride the Blast, this might be the most mobile combination possible until 15th level.
Earth into Water Green
The main selling point here is the shroud of water ability here, which is a solid defensive buff, but a lot of water's abilities play better to a main with their scaling, much like earth. Water's movement options also aren't as strong, since swimming is easily weaker than flying, so the gems that stand out here are things like cold snap and water manipulator, which will come online later.
If I had to pick a least favorite element now, it'd probably be water because out of the elements, it feels like it has the least of an identity. It's not bad, it just feels like the most generic of choices. Even Aether being bad at blast (aside from foe throw) somehow feels more unique, although water lacking a 'trademark' ability hurts it too.
Air to me is just such a great secondary element (especially if you can snag a composite blast out of it), and if you can't, it's about tied with aether.
N. Jolly: SO how would you rate going aether into earth and then into either air or water? I'm looking at creating an aether 'rogue' character.Let's accept that it would be impossible for me to rate going from one element into another for all possible combinations. As long as that's not being expected of me, I can answer this by itself.
Earth into Air Blue
Earth is strong, it has its solo power, and air is a GREAT addition to it for a few reasons. The composite blast is solid (assuming you're going air blast), and a lot of air's best talents are early game. Not to mention Air Shroud works GREAT with Earth Glide, giving you an always available supply of air, and Wings of Air gives you a flight option as early as 10th level. Combined with Air's Reach and Ride the Blast, this might be the most mobile combination possible until 15th level.Earth into Water Green
The main selling point here is the shroud of water ability here, which is a solid defensive buff, but a lot of water's abilities play better to a main with their scaling, much like earth. Water's movement options also aren't as strong, since swimming is easily weaker than flying, so the gems that stand out here are things like cold snap and water manipulator, which will come online later.If I had to pick a least favorite element now, it'd probably be water because out of the elements, it feels like it has the least of an identity. It's not bad, it just feels like the most generic of choices. Even Aether being bad at blast (aside from foe throw) somehow feels more unique, although water lacking a 'trademark' ability hurts it too.
Air to me is just such a great secondary element (especially if you can snag a composite blast out of it), and if you can't, it's about tied with aether.
suppose one is considering an air kineticist, is Air into Earth much worse than Earth into Air?
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suppose one is considering an air kineticist, is Air into Earth much worse than Earth into Air?N. Jolly: SO how would you rate going aether into earth and then into either air or water? I'm looking at creating an aether 'rogue' character.Let's accept that it would be impossible for me to rate going from one element into another for all possible combinations. As long as that's not being expected of me, I can answer this by itself.
Earth into Air Blue
Earth is strong, it has its solo power, and air is a GREAT addition to it for a few reasons. The composite blast is solid (assuming you're going air blast), and a lot of air's best talents are early game. Not to mention Air Shroud works GREAT with Earth Glide, giving you an always available supply of air, and Wings of Air gives you a flight option as early as 10th level. Combined with Air's Reach and Ride the Blast, this might be the most mobile combination possible until 15th level.Earth into Water Green
The main selling point here is the shroud of water ability here, which is a solid defensive buff, but a lot of water's abilities play better to a main with their scaling, much like earth. Water's movement options also aren't as strong, since swimming is easily weaker than flying, so the gems that stand out here are things like cold snap and water manipulator, which will come online later.If I had to pick a least favorite element now, it'd probably be water because out of the elements, it feels like it has the least of an identity. It's not bad, it just feels like the most generic of choices. Even Aether being bad at blast (aside from foe throw) somehow feels more unique, although water lacking a 'trademark' ability hurts it too.
Air to me is just such a great secondary element (especially if you can snag a composite blast out of it), and if you can't, it's about tied with aether.
Air's defense is much worse than Earth's, and while much of air's utility is early, much of earth's is late. It's still a good combo, but if you are planing on going Earth+Air, it's stronger to go with Earth first.
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suppose one is considering an air kineticist, is Air into Earth much worse than Earth into Air?Air's defense is much worse than Earth's, and while much of air's utility is early, much of earth's is late. It's still a good combo, but if you are planing on going Earth+Air, it's stronger to go with Earth first
Imbicatus is right here, the reason that air's so good as a secondary is due to its large amount of solid early game abilities, air isn't nearly as solid as a late game element. Earth on the other hand is big late game, but thanks to the -2 level issue, getting its abilities later is a real downer, making air into earth more of a high orange/low green, not something that's super optimal, but something that can work. Getting Earth's elemental defense early (and for free) is also a big thing, it's hard to recommend air as an initial element since it's so great as a late game one, although that's for 1-20 games. For 1-10, air's a great solo since you're still snagging flight at 6th level, and that's awesome.
One obscure magic item I might mention for cryokineticists would be truefrost elixir, though it might not be allowed in every game since it's from an Adventure Path. Was a little disappointed it didn't get reprinted in Occult Adventures along with variants for at least fire and electricity...
Thank you for this! Wonderful for penetrating cold resistance. Don't think I ever saw this, even though I spend a fair amount of time on Archives of Nethys.
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One obscure magic item I might mention for cryokineticists would be truefrost elixir, though it might not be allowed in every game since it's from an Adventure Path. Was a little disappointed it didn't get reprinted in Occult Adventures along with variants for at least fire and electricity...Thank you for this! Wonderful for penetrating cold resistance. Don't think I ever saw this, even though I spend a fair amount of time on Archives of Nethys.
It's too expensive to use frequently, but it's great to have when needed.
I feel like we are underestimating double Aether force blast. Yes it is low damage but only double fire has a higher damage pure elemental blast. What I see Force blast as is the ultimate fall back tool. Ranged touch, full damage to incorporeal, nothing has force resistance. Every time you miss or get resisted you loose damage and outside of optimal that can happen a lot. What I do wish though was that it also ignored SR but you can't have everything.
I feel like we are underestimating double Aether force blast. Yes it is low damage but only double fire has a higher damage pure elemental blast. What I see Force blast as is the ultimate fall back tool. Ranged touch, full damage to incorporeal, nothing has force resistance. Every time you miss or get resisted you loose damage and outside of optimal that can happen a lot. What I do wish though was that it also ignored SR but you can't have everything.
Well, I would hope it was in second place.
There are only two pure energy composite blasts-blue flame and force blast. So the fact that it is second place should be natural.
Now, the rest of what you said has merit, but I just thought that was...off.
So basically-pretend like you don't have a composite blast, and that you got a free infusion (which doesn't take up a substance/form slot... and can't get the benefit fo infusion specialization) that lets you hit force.
Of course, there are a few problems with the advnatages-
A. Since we are comparing it to the damage of other composite blasts (due to the cost).... there is the problem that physical blasts do 1/2 damage to incorpereal.... and they do 2x damage than force blast. Which...evens out?
B. Looking at incorperreal opponnents...don't they usually have great touch AC? I mean...ghosts don't seem like the types to have a lot of armor and natural armor. I may be wrong there... but if I am not, then the difference between touch and not touch against the opponents most weak to force is..minimal.
The advantage here is more 'a touch attack that nothing is immune to'
The advantage here is more 'a touch attack that nothing is immune to'
This is really all I was saying. While disintegrating substance infusion is not burn efficient but it opens up other in game options for creatures with regeneration and the like.
Why is Air's Defense rated so low? It seems to me, once they are flying the main way to hit them is a range weapon. Giving that weapon a miss chance (and a fairly high miss chance) seems pretty good. I know it doesn't work with rays as well, but negating arrows seems pretty good. It seems to work pretty well with the theme of the character. (note earth and water don't work against ray elemental attacks either)
Also While fire's defense isn't really a defense, I don't think it's red. Again it's doing what fire wants to do and that's kill opponents faster (assuming no fire resistance). Or is resistance to fire what takes it from orange to red?
On another note:
Fire/Earth vs Earth/Fire
If I'm correct Earth/Fire/Fire can not happen, but Fire/Earth/Fire is an option. Does this change the order you would take (or would you still take aether as the 3rd)?
Why is Air's Defense rated so low? It seems to me, once they are flying the main way to hit them is a range weapon. Giving that weapon a miss chance (and a fairly high miss chance) seems pretty good. I know it doesn't work with rays as well, but negating arrows seems pretty good. It seems to work pretty well with the theme of the character. (note earth and water don't work against ray elemental attacks either)
Also While fire's defense isn't really a defense, I don't think it's red. Again it's doing what fire wants to do and that's kill opponents faster (assuming no fire resistance). Or is resistance to fire what takes it from orange to red?
On another note:
Fire/Earth vs Earth/Fire
If I'm correct Earth/Fire/Fire can not happen, but Fire/Earth/Fire is an option. Does this change the order you would take (or would you still take aether as the 3rd)?
The feasibility of Air's Defense changes depending on the terrain of the environment. Since Pathfinder, and most fantasy RPG games, revolve around the concept of 'the Dungeon', be it a house, a castle, an underground ruin, or actual dungeon, means that most encounters will take place in areas with relatively low ceilings.
So being up in the air with a miss chance vs ranged weapons (doesn't work on rays unless you spend a burn on an air talent, and only for 1 round, if I recall correctly) is, in theory, an excellent defense; in practice, it's not as good as one would like to think because, most of the time, you're still going to be within range of melee weapons.
Why is Air's Defense rated so low? It seems to me, once they are flying the main way to hit them is a range weapon. Giving that weapon a miss chance (and a fairly high miss chance) seems pretty good. I know it doesn't work with rays as well, but negating arrows seems pretty good. It seems to work pretty well with the theme of the character. (note earth and water don't work against ray elemental attacks either)
Also While fire's defense isn't really a defense, I don't think it's red. Again it's doing what fire wants to do and that's kill opponents faster (assuming no fire resistance). Or is resistance to fire what takes it from orange to red?
On another note:
Fire/Earth vs Earth/Fire
If I'm correct Earth/Fire/Fire can not happen, but Fire/Earth/Fire is an option. Does this change the order you would take (or would you still take aether as the 3rd)?
The feasibility of Air's Defense changes depending on the terrain of the environment. Since Pathfinder, and most fantasy RPG games, revolve around the concept of 'the Dungeon', be it a house, a castle, an underground ruin, or actual dungeon, means that most encounters will take place in areas with relatively low ceilings.
So being up in the air with a miss chance vs ranged weapons (doesn't work on rays unless you spend a burn on an air talent, and only for 1 round, if I recall correctly) is, in theory, an excellent defense; in practice, it's not as good as one would like to think because, most of the time, you're still going to be within range of melee weapons.
Even in a wide passage...some creatures are big enough that they might be able to reach you. A 15' tall giant with 15' reach can hit up to 30' above the ground, right?
Also, I would imagine that Air's defense might lose some immediate value since it doesn't help against melee in the air (ie- a flying dragon).
It does add to that war potential thing I mentioned before. Against an army of more human opponents, it would make attacking you much harder, along with your general speed from ride the blast (via air's reach and chain)
Why is Air's Defense rated so low? It seems to me, once they are flying the main way to hit them is a range weapon. Giving that weapon a miss chance (and a fairly high miss chance) seems pretty good. I know it doesn't work with rays as well, but negating arrows seems pretty good. It seems to work pretty well with the theme of the character. (note earth and water don't work against ray elemental attacks either)
Also While fire's defense isn't really a defense, I don't think it's red. Again it's doing what fire wants to do and that's kill opponents faster (assuming no fire resistance). Or is resistance to fire what takes it from orange to red?
On another note:
Fire/Earth vs Earth/Fire
If I'm correct Earth/Fire/Fire can not happen, but Fire/Earth/Fire is an option. Does this change the order you would take (or would you still take aether as the 3rd)?
The feasibility of Air's Defense changes depending on the terrain of the environment. Since Pathfinder, and most fantasy RPG games, revolve around the concept of 'the Dungeon', be it a house, a castle, an underground ruin, or actual dungeon, means that most encounters will take place in areas with relatively low ceilings.
So being up in the air with a miss chance vs ranged weapons (doesn't work on rays unless you spend a burn on an air talent, and only for 1 round, if I recall correctly) is, in theory, an excellent defense; in practice, it's not as good as one would like to think because, most of the time, you're still going to be within range of melee weapons.
Even in a wide passage...some creatures are big enough that they might be able to reach you. A 15' tall giant with 15' reach can hit up to 30' above the ground, right?
Also, I would imagine that Air's defense might lose some immediate value since it doesn't help against melee in the air (ie- a flying dragon).
It does add to that war potential thing I mentioned before. Against an army of more human opponents, it would make...
The problem is that spells like fickle winds or wind wall do it better. Fickle winds would let any person have nearly 100% immunity against ranged weapons (barring a dispel or the spell running out) of human armies. Wind wall is much the same, except for from one direction.
Also, it's worth noting that the Aerokinetic can use his Air's Defense to form a wind wall (losing the defense, temporarily, in the process) using Englufing Winds. However, it's of little use as it only lasts until the next turn unless they accept burn to keep it going for 1 round per level.
Finally, you need to keep in mind the concept of fighting an army. Depending on the size of an army, you could be going up against hundreds, or thousands of archers. At it's best, the Air Defense talent, Enveloping Winds, only grants a 75% miss chance vs ranged weapons. That means if 100 archers out of 10,000* managed to hit you with their bow, 75% of them will miss, but 25% will still make it through. 25d8 won't kill you, but it's sure going to hurt. Especially since you had to accept 7 points of burn to (at 17th level, more at lower levels) in order to boost that miss chance up to a 75% chance.
Going back to the spell problem, I could have just taken ranks in Use Magic Device and carried a wand of fickle winds (thank you ranger spell list) instead of spending burn to use my kinetic defense. This would give me far better protection (100% miss chance) than my kinetic defense would, and, as a kineticist, I probably have the cash to spare, since I'm not buying expensive weapons.
[Edit]*It's likely archers will need a natural 20 to hit a high level character. A natural 20 is a 5% chance, meaning 5% of archers will actually roll a natural 20. 5% of 10,000 is 500 archers, 75% of whom, will miss. 125 archers still managed to hit you, through all of your defenses, dealing 125d8 points of damage, an average of 562.5 points of damage. This is not accounting for critical hits or strength ratings on bows.
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Why is Air's Defense rated so low? It seems to me, once they are flying the main way to hit them is a range weapon. Giving that weapon a miss chance (and a fairly high miss chance) seems pretty good. I know it doesn't work with rays as well, but negating arrows seems pretty good. It seems to work pretty well with the theme of the character. (note earth and water don't work against ray elemental attacks either)
Also While fire's defense isn't really a defense, I don't think it's red. Again it's doing what fire wants to do and that's kill opponents faster (assuming no fire resistance). Or is resistance to fire what takes it from orange to red?
On another note:
Fire/Earth vs Earth/Fire
If I'm correct Earth/Fire/Fire can not happen, but Fire/Earth/Fire is an option. Does this change the order you would take (or would you still take aether as the 3rd)?
Same for a lot of the other reasons that have already been mentioned. It's an okay defense, but I'm grading it against force ward/shroud of water/flesh of stone, and those are A to A+ abilities. A miss chance against bow/gun attacks doesn't really cut it. It's useful, but in most combat situations unless you're already using extended or extreme range, you're basically in melee already, also noting that only human opponents for the most part will be using attacks like these, so they're generally worthless against more monstrous foes. If you have a more human game, it goes up.
As for fire, again I'm comparing it against the others. It does small amounts of the most easily resisted damage in the game upon being struck in melee, a tielfing can shake off this damage pretty easily, let alone most of the stuff that WILL be hammering you. It's another ability I can't see being a backbone of your defense like the big 3 of elemental defense.
As for the last question, you're right, you can't expand your new element sadly (not sure why...), so I'd probably go fire/earth/fire to make sure you can pick up Rise from the Ashes, which I'd say is the more powerful end game option of the two. Earth's stuff is mid game which is pushing it more late game for you. Earth and fire aren't best friends for this reason. Fire/earth/fire is fine, you'll be doing more fire damage than fire/earth/aether as long as you're planning on using Blue Flame blast, but if you're centering on magma blast or just want invisibility, aether's the way to go..
The problem is that spells like fickle winds or wind wall do it better. Fickle winds would let any person have nearly 100% immunity against ranged weapons (barring a dispel or the spell running out) of human armies. Wind wall is much the same, except for from one direction.
Also, it's worth noting that the Aerokinetic can use his Air's Defense to form a wind wall (losing the defense, temporarily, in the process) using Englufing Winds. However, it's of little use as it only lasts until the next turn unless they accept burn to keep it going for 1 round per level.
Finally, you need to keep in mind the concept of fighting an army. Depending on the size of an army, you could be going up against hundreds, or thousands of archers. At it's best, the Air Defense talent, Enveloping Winds, only grants a 75% miss chance vs ranged weapons. That means if 100 archers out of 10,000* managed to hit you with their bow, 75% of them will miss, but 25% will still make it through. 25d8 won't kill you, but it's sure going to hurt. Especially since you had to accept 7 points of burn to (at 17th level, more at lower levels) in order to boost that miss chance up to a 75% chance.
Going back to the spell problem, I could have just taken ranks in Use Magic Device and carried a wand of fickle winds (thank you ranger spell list) instead of spending burn to use my kinetic defense. This would give me far better protection (100% miss chance) than my kinetic defense would, and, as a kineticist, I probably have the cash to spare, since I'm not buying expensive weapons.
[Edit]*It's likely archers will need a natural 20 to hit a high level character. A natural 20 is a 5% chance, meaning 5% of archers will actually roll a natural 20. 5% of 10,000 is 500 archers, 75% of whom, will miss. 125 archers still managed to hit you, through all of your defenses, dealing 125d8 points of damage, an average of 562.5 points of damage. This is not accounting for critical hits or strength ratings on bows.
Lets see...minutes/level, rounds/level. Perfect for the intense and high stakes nature of adventuring (where you fight only a few fights per day, and they rarely last for more than a minute)
Terrible if you are trying to keep an army at bay for hours at a time. Pefect for facing an elite squad sent to hunt you down... but poor against sheer mass.
The 'all day caster' thing is not a major factor in normal game play- I will readily admit to that. But when I say 'war potential', I am looking at a much larger scale, and for the most part- it is mostly for flavor (again...kineticists make perfect BBEGs in the sense that they can murder 100's of people, personally, over the course of hours and hours, and they would be still fit to fight)
And I would say depends....air users have a range of 960 (more than a bow), they can use that to run with ride the wind (going back to get healing from their side), and they have things like cloud. Heck, Imagine how chain infusion+ ride the blast would alter things- getting in close, with little chance to follow your moves, so you only have to deal with a relatively small number of close enemies (who could technically be considered cover from the various archers)... only to immediately zoom in another direction
While I'll admit- anyone would have trouble being in range of 10,000 at the same time... guerillas usually target smaller units (a few hundred men), or harass and lure out pursuers that may be at a more managable size. Well within managable range where you simply need to zoom off to use a wand of CLWs every so often.
Also, note...I wouldn't be worried about crits. Remember, you gain a percent chance to ignore crits as you build up burn.
But yes...earth is still the king of 'just don't care' when it comes to the concept of "war potential"- with their DR, you often need highly trained men (feats like deadly aim, high strength score) to even get off a point or two or damage. Unless they get adamantine, of course...but that is even less likely in a 'war' scenario than in regular adventuring- a single adamantine arrow costs more than most soldier's entire equipment (slightly better efficiency if you use a blanch- still 10 gp per shot, which makes fire arms look cheap). Shooting all that when most will never hit due to magical armor/shield... yeah....
Earth users are just well suited towards being army crushing villains, it seems. They are the types you can't take on with sheer numbers- you need elite and well equipped teams of heroes.