Paralyze does not grant bonuses, it has very serious penalties.
I'm still trying to establish that when a sentence says something like this:
"Using a fly spell requires only as much concentration as walking"
That we allow it to do what it says.
No physical effort is required, yet people insist that since conditions exist that call for a Fly skill check (NOT a physical skill, BTW, no such designation has been created except to argue against the possibility of having magical flight while paralyzed) that somehow being paralyzed prevents this, even though it says in the condition that you can take purely mental actions.
So, salient points:
1-The fly spell says what is required to use it: ONLY CONCENTRATION. This in itself prevents the argument that some physical requirement must be met, because that would go directly against the published material.
2-The assertion that listing a skill within a spell creates a requirement to use the skill or the spell fails is false. There is no text stating that making Fly skill checks is required to use the spell. There IS text stating that conditions can occur that require skill checks, this is not the same thing.
3-People arguing that 'purely mental' is not mentioned in the spell itself are conveniently ignoring the fact that 'purely physical' has equal presence in the text. In fact, the quote I showed is clearly talking about mental control. To not admit this is to be deliberately obtuse, as the text leaves very little to the imagination.
This spell is written using the english language, but the people arguing against its use in this thread (allowing for limited flight while paralyzed) are not employing english. They employ a modified version of english that allows them to ignore existing definitions of words to further a baseless argument.
Many arguments refuse to acknowledge that the word "concentration" can mean anything other than a description of spell duration, others refuse to believe that the word "only" might actually preclude any possibility of another control type (the "physical action" which apparently Fly requires, despite no text supporting it).
I'm not trying to argue that you can Fly without any penalties, I've talked about the penalties. There are a lot of them.
I'm simply trying to show that being paralyzed doesn't make you helpless (the english word) despite making you Helpless (the mechanic).
It specifically calls out for allowing actions.
Arguing against using a spell that is used with concentration (the english word, not a mechanic) is telling us that thought is affected by a physical condition.
There are spells that describe visual/physical effects, some grant you wings, some carry you aloft on puffs of air.
Fly is not one of those. Fly is a spell controlled by will, by thought, by concentration.
It is magic. Please allow the spell to do what it says in the spell, to do it any other way is to ignore the rules.
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It will never cease to baffle me how you can interpret "only as much concentration as walking" as "only concentration".
What do you think those other four words are there for?
That sentence does only one thing: it establishes a comparison between the amount of concentration it takes to fly and the amount of concentration it takes to walk.
And how much concentration does it take to walk? Without that information, the whole phrase is meaningless. I'm pretty sure it takes no concentration at all to walk.
It will never cease to baffle me how you can interpret "only as much concentration as walking" as "only concentration".
What do you think those other four words are there for?
That sentence does only one thing: it establishes a comparison between the amount of concentration it takes to fly and the amount of concentration it takes to walk.
And how much concentration does it take to walk? Without that information, the whole phrase is meaningless. I'm pretty sure it takes no concentration at all to walk.
If it said 'only as much concentration as speaking', I would agree with you.
Walking requires a small amount of concentration, so as to not trip over stuff or fall down stairs.
That is why, like Dominate Person, this spell should require a move action to use.
With a mental act of will to control it.
Like... a purely mental action.
As for why I truncated the sentence, it's because people really seem to have difficulty understanding it. I shortened it without removing relevant information.
Whether it's as much concentration as walking, or as much concentration as some other act, the words ""use", "only" and "concentration" are the relevant points.
Using only those words in no way changes the meaning of the sentence, or how the spell works.
If it took as much ACTION or EFFORT as walking, I would feel differently.
It will never cease to baffle me how you can interpret "only as much concentration as walking" as "only concentration".
What do you think those other four words are there for?
That sentence does only one thing: it establishes a comparison between the amount of concentration it takes to fly and the amount of concentration it takes to walk.
And how much concentration does it take to walk? Without that information, the whole phrase is meaningless. I'm pretty sure it takes no concentration at all to walk.
If it said 'only as much concentration as speaking', I would agree with you.
Walking requires a small amount of concentration, so as to not trip over stuff or fall down stairs.
That is why, like Dominate Person, this spell should require a move action to use.
With a mental act of will to control it.
Like... a purely mental action.
As for why I truncated the sentence, it's because people really seem to have difficulty understanding it. I shortened it without removing relevant information.
Whether it's as much concentration as walking, or as much concentration as some other act, the words ""use", "only" and "concentration" are the relevant points.
Using only those words in no way changes the meaning of the sentence, or how the spell works.
If it took as much ACTION or EFFORT as walking, I would feel differently.
That part, that I bolded, is your opinion on how it should work, not how it is written. Do not conflate what you think it should be with what it actually is.
The sentence "It only requires as much concentration as walking" does not, and never will have, the same meaning as "It only requires concentration." You say that using only those words in no way changes the meaning of the sentence, but that is incorrect. It changes the meaning entirely.
Compare:
"I only require as much water as I need for hydration."
"I only require water."
Do you think those two statements mean the same thing?
It will never cease to baffle me how you can interpret "only as much concentration as walking" as "only concentration".
What do you think those other four words are there for?
That sentence does only one thing: it establishes a comparison between the amount of concentration it takes to fly and the amount of concentration it takes to walk.
And how much concentration does it take to walk? Without that information, the whole phrase is meaningless. I'm pretty sure it takes no concentration at all to walk.
If it said 'only as much concentration as speaking', I would agree with you.
Walking requires a small amount of concentration, so as to not trip over stuff or fall down stairs.
That is why, like Dominate Person, this spell should require a move action to use.
With a mental act of will to control it.
Like... a purely mental action.
As for why I truncated the sentence, it's because people really seem to have difficulty understanding it. I shortened it without removing relevant information.
Whether it's as much concentration as walking, or as much concentration as some other act, the words ""use", "only" and "concentration" are the relevant points.
Using only those words in no way changes the meaning of the sentence, or how the spell works.
If it took as much ACTION or EFFORT as walking, I would feel differently.
That part, that I bolded, is your opinion on how it should work, not how it is written. Do not conflate what you think it should be with what it actually is.
The sentence "It only requires as much concentration as walking" does not, and never will have, the same meaning as "It only requires concentration." You say that using only those words in no way changes the meaning of the sentence, but that is incorrect. It changes the meaning entirely.
Compare:
"I only require as much water as I need for hydration."
"I only require water."
Do you think those two statements mean the same thing?
The sentence I quoted does not alter in meaning, the sentence you wrote does.
You clearly are capable of understanding english.
"As much concentration as walking" is not "As much EFFORT as walking".
Concentration is a mental thing, not a physical thing.
Do you agree? Please just answer yes or no, rather than writing out something CLEARLY unrelated to the point being discussed.
The sentence you wrote does alter the meaning. I was responding directly to points raised in your post, so sorry if you consider that off-topic but then I guess your post was off-topic too?
You can have as much as ten of something, or you can have ten of something. Those two things do not mean the same thing.
If you want to address the use of the word concentration, well, the wording of the spell is clearly referring to the game mechanic of concentrating on a spell. What it is saying is that this spell requires no spellcaster concentration to keep it active, meaning you can attack or cast when flying the same as if you were walking. It says absolutely nothing about mental actions.
"As much concentration as walking" is not "As much EFFORT as walking".
Concentration is a mental thing, not a physical thing.
This is a strawman argument that does nothing to contribute to your cause or to refute the arguments presented against you.
Alex's sentence didn't change the meaning. Yours did, el cuervo.
Alex's sentence didn't change the meaning. Yours did, el cuervo.
No.
You're saying that "Only requires as much concentration as walking" means the same thing as "only requires concentration." This is semantically wrong.
You're saying that "Only requires as much <blank> as <blank>" means the same thing as "Only requires <blank>."
The semantics do not change. It doesn't matter what you insert into the blanks. Please stop with the nonsense.
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"Using a fly spell requires only as much concentration as walking, so the subject can attack or cast spells normally"That we allow it to do what it says.
FIFY; it's generally seen as quite disingenious to cut of a quote mid-sentence.
Yes, we allow what it says. We do not force so much concentration that you cannot attack or cast spells normally. That's exactly what it does.
Concentration is a game term, you know. That restricts attacking and casting spells. Fly specifies it does not do that. That is exactly what that sentence means.
Your argument is akin to claiming that you can use ray of frost to teleport you because it has a range of 25ft but doesn't specify the target has to be within range so you can cast it at someone 100 ft away and you'll appear 75 ft from there. It's a complete upside down argument.
And still, no one can tell me exactly how much concentration it takes to walk. We need to know, how else are we going to figure out how to integrate using Fly in the action framework?
(Everything points to "no concentration at all", in my opinion.)
The things people take pride in... I keep arguing with my friends, but modern civilization really is doomed :-(
I take pride in nothing; and given a long enough timeline, everything and everyone is doomed.
Also, can you actually point to a post anywhere in this thread that honest-to-goodness has made anyone's stance on the topic change? All I see is two groups of people refusing to back down or compromise on anything, and a tiny group in the middle arguing that both sides have merit so we should just wait and see what the Devs say.
Personally, I can stand to wait for a FAQ; heck, I couldn't even tell you when the last time it was that I saw a character get paralyzed while flying. Maybe it comes up more often at other tables or in PFS.
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So barbarians can't walk while raging?
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So barbarians can't walk while raging?
lol.
So barbarians can't walk while raging?Er, no, if while raging they couldn't concentrate enough to walk, then they also couldn't fly. In fact the fly skill is specifically called out as permitted use while raging. So obviously both flying and walking take less concentration than is forbidden while raging.
Not sure how you got it the other way around.
Or did you think concentration is some sort of binary absolute thing, so Barbarians couldn't concentrate enough to speak while raging? They can't do anything other than autonomous nervous system functions? Surely that's not what you're suggesting, is it?
I think it was a joke.
And still, no one can tell me exactly how much concentration it takes to walk. We need to know, how else are we going to figure out how to integrate using Fly in the action framework?
(Everything points to "no concentration at all", in my opinion.)
I'm inclined to actually agree with Forseti.
Let's make it a free action.
Thanks, you are right. :D
It takes a move action worth of concentration.And still, no one can tell me exactly how much concentration it takes to walk. We need to know, how else are we going to figure out how to integrate using Fly in the action framework?
(Everything points to "no concentration at all", in my opinion.)
Frankly, for game balance, I think this is most correct.
The action, however, can be used while paralyzed.
As it requires...
"...only as much concentration as walking..."
Lower case "C" concentration. :D
Kinda like Dominate Person.
Unless Dominate Person requires the often mentioned (but never described mechanically) "physical action".
Still waiting for citations on THAT one. :D
Both me and my uninitiated brother agree that you can still fly. You can't attack or anything else though, so you can only really GTFO. That is, unless you can cast a Still Silent spell that has no material/focus components... Otherwise soak up AoOs, be distracting, or again, GTFO.
Or did you think concentration is some sort of binary absolute thing, so Barbarians couldn't concentrate enough to speak while raging? They can't do anything other than autonomous nervous system functions? Surely that's not what you're suggesting, is it?
Actually, in common English, concentration in its meaning of "to focus ones mind on something", is a binary thing. You either concentrate on something, or you don't. It's not a quantifiable thing. You can't concentrate "a little". There's no unit of "mental concentration".
The whole phrase "flying takes as much concentration as flying" either means that both walking and flying don't require you to concentrate at all, or they require you to concentrate "full stop". It can't mean you need to concentrate a little, because that's a meaningless phrase. How much would a little be? 15 microbrainwaves? 4.2 nanothoughts? 73 synaptic firings?
Or did you think concentration is some sort of binary absolute thing, so Barbarians couldn't concentrate enough to speak while raging? They can't do anything other than autonomous nervous system functions? Surely that's not what you're suggesting, is it?Actually, in common English, concentration in its meaning of "to focus ones mind on something", is a binary thing. You either concentrate on something, or you don't. It's not a quantifiable thing. You can't concentrate "a little". There's no unit of "mental concentration".
The whole phrase "flying takes as much concentration as flying" either means that both walking and flying don't require you to concentrate at all, or they require you to concentrate "full stop". It can't mean you need to concentrate a little, because that's a meaningless phrase. How much would a little be? 15 microbrainwaves? 4.2 nanothoughts? 73 synaptic firings?
You are a very interesting person.
Or did you think concentration is some sort of binary absolute thing, so Barbarians couldn't concentrate enough to speak while raging? They can't do anything other than autonomous nervous system functions? Surely that's not what you're suggesting, is it?Actually, in common English, concentration in its meaning of "to focus ones mind on something", is a binary thing. You either concentrate on something, or you don't. It's not a quantifiable thing. You can't concentrate "a little". There's no unit of "mental concentration".
The whole phrase "flying takes as much concentration as flying" either means that both walking and flying don't require you to concentrate at all, or they require you to concentrate "full stop". It can't mean you need to concentrate a little, because that's a meaningless phrase. How much would a little be? 15 microbrainwaves? 4.2 nanothoughts? 73 synaptic firings?
In Pathfinder, Concentration has one of two meanings, either referring to the method for avoiding a spell being lost when casting under bad circumstances (the concentration check) or as a way to keep up/control spells as referred to in the Magic>Duration section.
Walking does not require concentration, and neither does flying. That's the point. Meanwhile, Minor Image does require concentration, and that prevents you from attacking or casting normally while Minor Image is active. Fly states that it only requires as much concentration as walking (ie none by the rules), so you can act attack and cast normally. What it says is that Fly doesn't work like Minor Image.
This is completely, 100% separate from questions about move actions using speeds granted by spells (whether fly or elemental body).
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Here's my PoV on the main question:
Consider a spellcaster using a spell like mage hand to carry something around.
Now paralyze the spellcaster. Can he still control the mage hand?
If you say yes, then the spellcaster should be able to maintain the fly spell.
But, since the fly skill is dex based, I'd rule that everything that requires a fly check automatically fails.
So, yes, you can fly using concentration, but you cannot use the fly skill.
Or did you think concentration is some sort of binary absolute thing, so Barbarians couldn't concentrate enough to speak while raging? They can't do anything other than autonomous nervous system functions? Surely that's not what you're suggesting, is it?Actually, in common English, concentration in its meaning of "to focus ones mind on something", is a binary thing. You either concentrate on something, or you don't. It's not a quantifiable thing. You can't concentrate "a little". There's no unit of "mental concentration".
The whole phrase "flying takes as much concentration as flying" either means that both walking and flying don't require you to concentrate at all, or they require you to concentrate "full stop". It can't mean you need to concentrate a little, because that's a meaningless phrase. How much would a little be? 15 microbrainwaves? 4.2 nanothoughts? 73 synaptic firings?
In Pathfinder, Concentration has one of two meanings, either referring to the method for avoiding a spell being lost when casting under bad circumstances (the concentration check) or as a way to keep up/control spells as referred to in the Magic>Duration section.
Walking does not require concentration, and neither does flying. That's the point. Meanwhile, Minor Image does require concentration, and that prevents you from attacking or casting normally while Minor Image is active. Fly states that it only requires as much concentration as walking (ie none by the rules), so you can act attack and cast normally. What it says is that Fly doesn't work like Minor Image.
This is completely, 100% separate from questions about move actions using speeds granted by spells (whether fly or elemental body).
Incorrect.
Concentration is a word that existed LONG before rules were created using it.
It means what you said, plus what the dictionary says.
If people CHOOSE to use it ONLY as a rules term, they are going to create issues for themselves and others.
Repeatedly denying this truth is kind of like sticking your fingers in your ears and shouting "lalala, I can't hear you"...
And will produce a response very similar to that behaviour.
Here's my PoV on the main question:
Consider a spellcaster using a spell like mage hand to carry something around.
Now paralyze the spellcaster. Can he still control the mage hand?If you say yes, then the spellcaster should be able to maintain the fly spell.
But, since the fly skill is dex based, I'd rule that everything that requires a fly check automatically fails.
So, yes, you can fly using concentration, but you cannot use the fly skill.
Agreed.
See also: Dominate Person. No mention of 'purely mental' actions is made, but it explicitly spells out what type of control is required.
It saddens me that some people on here can't make the tiny step between reading and comprehension, and instead slavishly adhere to hyper-focused and non-sensical readings of what are clearly written sentences...
Concentration is a word that existed LONG before rules were created using it.
So is every word in the rule. For example, prestidigitation is:
noun
1.
another name for sleight of hand
yet me casting prestidigitation has no bearing on my sleight of hand, and having a high sleight of hand doesn't give me the powers of the prestidigitation spell.
Likewise, Mirror Image is:
a : something that has its parts reversely arranged in comparison with another similar thing or that is reversed with reference to an intervening axis or plane
b : the direct opposite
But that doesn't mean the spell inverts left/right or up/down for anyone; it just creates images that mimic you exactly.
It means what you said, plus what the dictionary says.
No, it doesn't. When a word has a specific meaning in the rules, then that means that meaning is used, not dictionary ones.
Concentration is a word that existed LONG before rules were created using it.So is every word in the rule. For example, prestidigitation is:
noun
1.
another name for sleight of handyet me casting prestidigitation has no bearing on my sleight of hand, and having a high sleight of hand doesn't give me the powers of the prestidigitation spell.
Likewise, Mirror Image is:
a : something that has its parts reversely arranged in comparison with another similar thing or that is reversed with reference to an intervening axis or plane
b : the direct opposite
But that doesn't mean the spell inverts left/right or up/down for anyone; it just creates images that mimic you exactly.
It means what you said, plus what the dictionary says.No, it doesn't. When a word has a specific meaning in the rules, then that means that meaning is used, not dictionary ones.
That is an interesting way to see the world.
In your games, can farmers concentrate on their daily chores without being spellcasters?
Because it doesn't sound like it.
Concentration is a word that existed LONG before rules were created using it.So is every word in the rule. For example, prestidigitation is:
noun
1.
another name for sleight of handyet me casting prestidigitation has no bearing on my sleight of hand, and having a high sleight of hand doesn't give me the powers of the prestidigitation spell.
Likewise, Mirror Image is:
a : something that has its parts reversely arranged in comparison with another similar thing or that is reversed with reference to an intervening axis or plane
b : the direct opposite
But that doesn't mean the spell inverts left/right or up/down for anyone; it just creates images that mimic you exactly.
It means what you said, plus what the dictionary says.No, it doesn't. When a word has a specific meaning in the rules, then that means that meaning is used, not dictionary ones.
Please explain how the usage of the Concentrate rules apply to a Barbarians rage ability.
That is an interesting way to see the world.
In your games, can farmers concentrate on their daily chores without being spellcasters?
Because it doesn't sound like it.
In-world words have basically the same meaning as the real-world meanings. To the rules they don't. We're discussing rules, not what people call things. Just like in-world, a rogue can call themselves a warrior, that doesn't give them full BAB.
And if a farmer was hit with an effect that says "you lose all abilities that require concentration", that wouldn't prevent them from tilling the ground. If they gain a bonus to Knowledge (Nature), that doesn't help them with Knowledge (Geography) just because Geography is a natural science.
Please explain how the usage of the Concentrate rules apply to a Barbarians rage ability.
"While in rage, a barbarian cannot use any Charisma-, Dexterity-, or Intelligence-based skills (except Acrobatics, Fly, Intimidate, and Ride) or any ability that requires patience or concentration."
They cannot use charisma, dexterity or intelligence-based skills, and they cannot cast spells, use SLA's, or anything else that can be disrupted on a failed concentration check (or that has a concentration duration, but I don't think there are any such effects that aren't spells or SLA's).
Patience isn't a game term, so that could apply to a little whatever the GM decides that could fall within dictionary definitions.
Please explain how the usage of the Concentrate rules apply to a Barbarians rage ability."While in rage, a barbarian cannot use any Charisma-, Dexterity-, or Intelligence-based skills (except Acrobatics, Fly, Intimidate, and Ride) or any ability that requires patience or concentration."
They cannot use charisma, dexterity or intelligence-based skills, and they cannot cast spells, use SLA's, or anything else that can be disrupted on a failed concentration check (or that has a concentration duration, but I don't think there are any such effects that aren't spells or SLA's).
Patience isn't a game term, so that could apply to a little whatever the GM decides that could fall within dictionary definitions.
You actually believe that every appearance of the words "concentrate", "concentration" or similar requires an invocation of rules text, don't you?
Wow.
I'm tired of trying to convince people that square pegs don't fit in round holes.
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You actually believe that every appearance of the words "concentrate", "concentration" or similar requires an invocation of rules text, don't you?
Wow.
I'm tired of trying to convince people that square pegs don't fit in round holes.
Yes, in the rules. Just like with sleight of hand, mirror image, spell level (hint: It's not about correct grammar on plain ground) and every other specific game term.
Or in your campaign, can I carry around a mirror and look myself in that to get the benefit of a mirror image spell?
If a rule says "concentration", I'll assume it's about the rules for concentration, just like if the rules say "sleight of hand" or "base attack bonus" or "character level" or "class". If I'm reading a pathfinder novella and it mentions "concentration", that's a different case. But you know, this is the rules forum, not the novella forum (there really should be one of those I think).
You actually believe that every appearance of the words "concentrate", "concentration" or similar requires an invocation of rules text, don't you?
Wow.
I'm tired of trying to convince people that square pegs don't fit in round holes.
Yes, just like with sleight of hand, mirror image, spell level (hint: It's not about correct grammar on plain ground) and every other specific game term.
Or in your campaign, can I carry around a mirror and look myself in that to get the benefit of a mirror image spell?
You absolutely could do exactly that.
I encourage custom magic items, that one sounds a bit obvious, but useful.
Incorrect.
Concentration is a word that existed LONG before rules were created using it.
It means what you said, plus what the dictionary says.
If people CHOOSE to use it ONLY as a rules term, they are going to create issues for themselves and others.
Repeatedly denying this truth is kind of like sticking your fingers in your ears and shouting "lalala, I can't hear you"...
And will produce a response very similar to that behaviour.
About that dictionary definition. I remember you quoting one earlier in this discussion:
concentration (ˌkɒnsənˈtreɪʃən)
n
1. intense mental application; complete attention
Complete attention. So walking requires intense mental application or even complete attention? Definitely beyond the scope of what barbarians can do while raging. No walking for them then.
Or maybe just a little complete attention?
You're arguing by a definition that makes the whole text of the spell utterly meaningless. Concentration as a mental activity can't be quantified. When something takes as much concentration as something else, that means both either require your full attention, or you don't need to concentrate on them at all. When I walk, it doesn't require intense mental application. It doesn't demand my complete attention. I don't concentrate on it. If I could Fly, I wouldn't be concentrating on it either. I would probably be focussing on finding a reason why the spell would make me fly faster if my armor had been made out of mithril instead of steel.
Incorrect.
Concentration is a word that existed LONG before rules were created using it.
It means what you said, plus what the dictionary says.
If people CHOOSE to use it ONLY as a rules term, they are going to create issues for themselves and others.
Repeatedly denying this truth is kind of like sticking your fingers in your ears and shouting "lalala, I can't hear you"...
And will produce a response very similar to that behaviour.
About that dictionary definition. I remember you quoting one earlier in this discussion:
concentration (ˌkɒnsənˈtreɪʃən)
n
1. intense mental application; complete attentionComplete attention. So walking requires intense mental application or even complete attention? Definitely beyond the scope of what barbarians can do while raging. No walking for them then.
Or maybe just a little complete attention?
You're arguing by a definition that makes the whole text of the spell utterly meaningless. Concentration as a mental activity can't be quantified. When something takes as much concentration as something else, that means both either require your full attention, or you don't need to concentrate on them at all. When I walk, it doesn't require intense mental application. It doesn't demand my complete attention. I don't concentrate on it. If I could Fly, I wouldn't be concentrating on it either. I would probably be focussing on finding a reason why the spell would make me fly faster if my armor had been made out of mithril instead of steel.
*sigh*
Fixating on a single use of a word again.
My quote that you reference was chosen in an attempt to convince people that maybe, JUST MAYBE, something that has been referenced (purely mental action) could be in some way related to concentration.
Apparently people didn't agree.
Concentration is a non-mental act... I guess...
Anway, back to what your saying.
I agree with you when you say that walking takes no concentration at all.
So, the phrase in the Fly spell referencing concentration is irrelevant.
Fly requires no concentration.
So, to use Fly requires nothing.
On that we can agree.
To keep the rules balanced however, rather than a free action (which is what you seem to be suggesting) I would instead suggest enforcing rules similar to what exists.
If one wants to change location on the map (or in rules terms "Move"), I suggest they use a standard or move action.
Assuming you have one of these free, you can (as per paralyze) use one to control your spell (which you stated requires NO concentration, but I guess I'm a bit more restrictive than you are).
Glad we sorted that out.
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Please explain how the usage of the Concentrate rules apply to a Barbarians rage ability."While in rage, a barbarian cannot use any Charisma-, Dexterity-, or Intelligence-based skills (except Acrobatics, Fly, Intimidate, and Ride) or any ability that requires patience or concentration."
They cannot use charisma, dexterity or intelligence-based skills, and they cannot cast spells, use SLA's, or anything else that can be disrupted on a failed concentration check (or that has a concentration duration, but I don't think there are any such effects that aren't spells or SLA's).
Patience isn't a game term, so that could apply to a little whatever the GM decides that could fall within dictionary definitions.
You actually believe that every appearance of the words "concentrate", "concentration" or similar requires an invocation of rules text, don't you?
Wow.
Appealing to ridicule. Your incredulous reaction doesn't make you right or the other person wrong. Your arguments are better served by arguing your points and refuting others with logic, not the logical fallacies that you insist make your analysis the correct one.
Now, for something on topic:
Barbarians can't cast spells during rage because they can't concentrate during rage. That is right there in the book. Targets of fly can fly as a move action when under the effect of the spell, because they get a fly speed of 60, and the rules for flying with a speed are in the book under movement and under the Fly skill. The spell text says flying requires no more concentration than walking. Since you can cast spells and attack when walking (that's in the movement and combat rules), you can cast spells and walk while flying (that's under the fly spell rules, moreso as a reminder that fly is just a special type of movement). The part of flying that actually moves your character across the board is still considered tactical movement and follows the general rules for tactical movement, except when there are exceptions for flying movement (under the Fly skill).
The rules for the paralyzed condition say that you cannot move or act. When translated into game terms, this means you cannot move (movement) or act (take any actions: swift, standard, move, even free or immediate actions) unless it is a purely mental action.
Things that are purely mental actions:
Will saves
Still, silent, Eschewed materials spells
Still, silent spells without material components
Still spells without verbal components
Silent spells without somatic components
Concentration to keep up an active spell (spells with a duration of "Concentration")
Psychic/Psionic abilities
Most SLAs maybe
Some SU abilities
Other things, I'm sure
Things that are not purely mental:
Walking
Flying
Attacking
Casting spells that don't qualify for categories above
Talking
Dancing
Eating
Jogging
Weightlifting
What happens when a flying creature is paralyzed? Well, paralyze says winged flying creatures fall because they cannot flap their wings. A magically flying creature who becomes paralyzed? They can't move or act, only make purely mental actions. I established above that flying, using the rules for movement, is not a purely mental action. However, as they are not flying with wings, they do not fall. And since only creatures flying with wings fall on a failed Fly check, they don't need to make a fly check to hover, either. They still cannot move, the magic of their spell suspending them in the air but the effect of the paralysis keeping them from moving. Or did you think Hold Person should still allow tactical movement?
Now, why is the language for purely mental actions in the text for paralysis? Because it is a purely mental full round action to make a Will save to break free of Hold Person.
You have made a CHOICE to read things a certain way, I have as well.
Our viewpoints do not agree.
I looked at Hold Person, and see no mention of "purely mental" full round actions.
I suggest adding to your list of purely mental actions:
Controlling spells that include text saying you can do so with "concentration" or similar wording. Dominate Person, for example, states you use telepathy to communicate your wishes, but must expend move actions to issue commands...
Would you argue that being paralyzed would affect THAT? I wouldn't. Even though the phrase 'purely mental action' isn't present.
In any case, I'm ignoring this thread from now on, I've said all I can.
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*sigh*
Fixating on a single use of a word again.
My quote that you reference was chosen in an attempt to convince people that maybe, JUST MAYBE, something that has been referenced (purely mental action) could be in some way related to concentration.
Apparently people didn't agree.
It's the single use of the word that you brought into the discussion. Excuse me for elaborating. Find me a use of the word that you do consider applicable then, and I'll work with that.
Anway, back to what your saying.
I agree with you when you say that walking takes no concentration at all.
So, the phrase in the Fly spell referencing concentration is irrelevant.
Fly requires no concentration.
So, to use Fly requires nothing.
On that we can agree.
I'm with you there all the way.
To keep the rules balanced however, rather than a free action (which is what you seem to be suggesting) I would instead suggest enforcing rules similar to what exists.
It is no action to initiate the mental process that results in the physical activity of walking.
Just as it is no action to initiate the mental process that results in the physical activity of flying by means of the Fly spell.
Just as it is no action to initiate the mental processes that result in any other kind of physical activities.
Before doing something physical that's not autonomous, people think. This thought process has no rules representation. And that's exactly what the Fly spell intends to say with: "Using a fly spell requires only as much concentration as walking, so the subject can attack or cast spells normally." Using the Fly spell doesn't get in the way of ones actions any more than walking does.
If one wants to change location on the map (or in rules terms "Move"), I suggest they use a standard or move action.
Agreed. A Move or standard action to perform the Move action.
Assuming you have one of these free, you can (as per paralyze) use one to control your spell (which you stated requires NO concentration, but I guess I'm a bit more restrictive than you are).
The Fly spell is not a controlled spell. It's a fire-and-forget spell that grants the subject the ability to fly. Which is a mode of movement and as such not allowed by the Paralyzed condition. It's a spell without even the slightest hint of language implying it's controlled, while it's steeped with language limiting its use by physical limitations. And when I refer to language, I mean the English language. Not some obscure language where "only as much as" means the same as "only".
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You have made a CHOICE to read things a certain way, I have as well.
Our viewpoints do not agree.
Clearly, our viewpoints don't agree, but you have yet to refute a single thing I have said. Meanwhile, every time you make a point I make a counterpoint. Do you care to read my analysis and provide feedback, or are you just here to argue?
I looked at Hold Person, and see no mention of "purely mental" full round actions.
That's because it takes a bit of logic to get there. Not guesswork, not assumption, but logic. Hold Person applies a paralyze effect. Hold Person requires a full round action to make a Will save to break free. Since Paralyze explicitly allows purely mental actions and Hold Person requires a full round action to make a Will save to break free, we can logically conclude that the Will save made to break free from Hold Person is a purely mental action. From that, we also determine that all Will saves must be purely mental actions.
If P, then Q.
I suggest adding to your list of purely mental actions:
Controlling spells that include text saying you can do so with "concentration" or similar wording. Dominate Person, for example, states you use telepathy to communicate your wishes, but must expend move actions to issue commands...
Would you argue that being paralyzed would affect THAT? I wouldn't. Even though the phrase 'purely mental action' isn't present.
No, because it is clearly a purely mental action. It still doesn't let you fly.
It was not intended to be a complete list. It was there to illustrate a point.
Things that are purely mental actions:
Will saves
Still, silent, Eschewed materials spells
Still, silent spells without material components
Still spells without verbal components
Silent spells without somatic components
Concentration to keep up an active spell (spells with a duration of "Concentration")
Psychic/Psionic abilities
Most SLAs maybe
Some SU abilities
Other things, I'm sure <---------Things that are not purely mental:
Walking
Flying
Attacking
Casting spells that don't qualify for categories above
Talking
Dancing
Eating
Jogging
Weightlifting
Or did you think concentration is some sort of binary absolute thing, so Barbarians couldn't concentrate enough to speak while raging? They can't do anything other than autonomous nervous system functions? Surely that's not what you're suggesting, is it?Actually, in common English, concentration in its meaning of "to focus ones mind on something", is a binary thing. You either concentrate on something, or you don't. It's not a quantifiable thing. You can't concentrate "a little". There's no unit of "mental concentration".
The whole phrase "flying takes as much concentration as flying" either means that both walking and flying don't require you to concentrate at all, or they require you to concentrate "full stop". It can't mean you need to concentrate a little, because that's a meaningless phrase. How much would a little be? 15 microbrainwaves? 4.2 nanothoughts? 73 synaptic firings?
In Pathfinder, Concentration has one of two meanings, either referring to the method for avoiding a spell being lost when casting under bad circumstances (the concentration check) or as a way to keep up/control spells as referred to in the Magic>Duration section.
Walking does not require concentration, and neither does flying. That's the point. Meanwhile, Minor Image does require concentration, and that prevents you from attacking or casting normally while Minor Image is active. Fly states that it only requires as much concentration as walking (ie none by the rules), so you can act attack and cast normally. What it says is that Fly doesn't work like Minor Image.
This is completely, 100% separate from questions about move actions using speeds granted by spells (whether fly or elemental body).
The game has mechanical rules called concentration, however those aren't the absolute only times the word "concentration" can, would or have been used (as well as other terms). The game also uses 'general' English, which is where confusion comes in at times.
I guess that at this point it is fair to call this thread The Next Big Thing after the 10 foot pit.
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Concentrating on walking is a subconscious act, you don't have to actively think about putting one foot in front of the other. You just... walk..
There are spells and rules within the game that use flavor text or example phrases to convey thoughts and try to bring comparisons of the game to the real world.
so i take the Phrase "only requires as much concentration as walking" to be an example text and not a reference to the Concentration rules.
So that flight / movement in this manner is achieved at a subconscious level. So i do not actively have to think about it i just "will" it or want to move that direction. When I'am walking i can maintain conversations, read a book, or a plethora of other things, i don't actively have to think "ok right leg up, now forward, angle foot, straighten leg, balance body, shift weight, now time for left foot..." i just walk, i don't even have to think about it. So flight in this manner take little to no thought at all to achieve.
I believe this is the case whether the flight is magical or a natural creature with wings, bird, griffon, roc, dragon Ect. I think for them to fly requires just as much concentration as walking as well. they can still attack while flying and dragons can cast spells while flying.
from what i read on this page (unless i completely misunderstood someone or didn't read what you wrote properly) we agree that walking does not require that much concentration, IE is a free action or part of a move action. so then flight itself is the same.
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so just looking over paralyzed again and thinking about it in the car, what actually happens?
A) your muscles seize up and are "Frozen" your limbs are unable to move or be moved by you or anyone else, you stay standing, weapons gripped tight, looking straight ahead, able to think and "take purely mental actions" you can be picked up, put on a cart or anything else and be transported. This leads to a couple problems You stop breathing, (all muscles are seized up) the spell Hold Person is the only place that says this is not the case "breathes normally". so maybe that applies to all cases? how about the heart, that's a muscle so it would seize up as well and death is following after quickly. there is nothing in the text of either hold person or paralyzed condition that says that doesn't happen. But we assume and infer that these are not instant death effects to a character.
B) your muscles no longer respond to your "commands" your breathing and heart still beat as these are bodily functions requiring no input from you. but you go limp, you can not issue commands to your limbs to grip the weapon, to balance yourself, or anything else. so inevitably you fall over and drop held items.
C) If magical IE hold person; an invisible force field surrounds you stopping all movement, holding you in place, you can breath, your heart beats, but the magical field is holding you in place exactly. If you were mid jump you are frozen in the air, you can not be moved from the space you occupy by you or any other effect.
What do all three of these ways to view paralyzed have in common, none of them are listed as the descriptive effect of what happens, and all of them are used by different people to explain how they think paralyzed works.
Or did you think concentration is some sort of binary absolute thing, so Barbarians couldn't concentrate enough to speak while raging? They can't do anything other than autonomous nervous system functions? Surely that's not what you're suggesting, is it?Actually, in common English, concentration in its meaning of "to focus ones mind on something", is a binary thing. You either concentrate on something, or you don't. It's not a quantifiable thing. You can't concentrate "a little". There's no unit of "mental concentration".
The whole phrase "flying takes as much concentration as flying" either means that both walking and flying don't require you to concentrate at all, or they require you to concentrate "full stop". It can't mean you need to concentrate a little, because that's a meaningless phrase. How much would a little be? 15 microbrainwaves? 4.2 nanothoughts? 73 synaptic firings?
Lol, are you serious? So, concentrating on a physics exam is no different than concentrating on reading a book? Exact same amount of mental effort? I can't comprehend how you would even come up with such a ridiculous idea, but perhaps that's because I'm not concentrating enough on figuring it out.
The whole "___ takes as much concentration as ___" in Pathfinder demonstrates, quite clearly, that Pathfinder is not using the same 'English' as you are since they are using it in a quantifiable manner, so your definition is both incorrect and irrelevant.
Concentrating on a physics exam is indeed no different than concentrating on reading a book. The difference you perceive is caused by the simple fact that most people don't concentrate on their books when they read them.
They are using it in a way that's not defined by the rules, nor recognized by any definition of the word in the English language.
You either concentrate on something, which means you focus the whole of your attention on it, or you don't. You can still pay some attention to something, but if it isn't all of it, you're not concentrating on it. You're just paying attention.
Prove me wrong, find me any educated reference to the process of mental concentration that allows for the concept of concentrating for some amount. Anything serious, not something written by a confused fourth grader.
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Now back to fly, The fly skill i feel is incomplete and does not cover every scenario perfectly.
Also there is no text that states, you need to be able to use the fly skill in order to achieve flight. the only thing i can find is that in order to do a complex maneuver you need to do a fly skill check.
I know what your gonna say you already said it, "but acrobatics doesn't state need to do acrobatics to walk". this example is merely to demonstrate that the rules do not cover every little thing. and different view points can be made from the same text.
Your viewpoint on fly is that if you can not do the skill check you can not do the basic act, whether magical or not. that is a fine point and keeps everything simple.
I and many people do not like simple we like complexity and exceptions, we want 2 sets of fly rules one for magical flight one for winged flight. but alas we don't have that, we have one fly skill, and the only mention of magical flight is the very first sentence. everything else refers to either winged flight or is vague about it and "seems" to be winged flight.
Now the paralyzed condition actually calls out winged creatures.
"A winged creature flying in the air at the time that it becomes paralyzed cannot flap its wings and falls."
So why would they call out winged creatures specifically? does this mean magical flying creatures do not fall? do they keep flying? Are they frozen mid air? refer back to my post about the 3 different types of paralyzed. which one are they?
Now the paralyzed condition actually calls out winged creatures.
"A winged creature flying in the air at the time that it becomes paralyzed cannot flap its wings and falls."So why would they call out winged creatures specifically? does this mean magical flying creatures do not fall? do they keep flying? Are they frozen mid air? refer back to my post about the 3 different types of paralyzed. which one are they?
Pathfinder is plagued by unedited passages from the original 3.5 rules.
The reference in the Paralyzed condition held true in 3.5 because in 3.5, magical flight was always given a "good" or better maneuverability, and with a good maneuverability, a creature could automatically hover.
Hovering isn't automatic anymore in Pathfinder, and nothing was added to the Fly spell to grant the ability to hover without a skill check. The fly skill demands a check, regardless of what the Paralyzed condition says about winged creatures.
The condition says nothing about creatures that fly by some other means, so those creatures just use the regular rules of their flying ability. It would be rather absurd to have to use fly skill checks to hover when you're completely mobile, but to automatically hover when you're paralyzed. Paralyzation isn't meant to make flying easier.