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This archetype from Occult Adventures intrigues me, but the loss of alchemy and access to alchemist discoveries seems like a big hit. I haven't finished digesting the psychic spell list that he gets. Does anyone have builds they've worked on, or ideas about how to use the different spell list to make a viable character?
Is nobody using this archetype?
At first glance the psychic detective would play a bit more like a magus with less self buff more offensive spells. Personally I never really liked the potion using investigator I think the psychic version is more flavourful.it also offers a much broader range of "spells" which can be used when immobilized or under water etc.
The psychic list also leads more to investigations object reading detect thoughts etc.
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It looks like the best way to make a very Jedi-like character, honestly. Before I was using Inquisitor with Two-World Magic to grab Mage Hand for it.
But there are some really great synergies here. The Empathy Talent (5th lvl) + Snake Style (3rd lvl feat) + Expanded Inspiration (5th lvl feat bonus talent) is a very powerful dodge.
Honestly I think the psychic spellcasting helps a lot for the early levels of investigator, which is kind of lacking until you get studied combat/strike at 4th. It is very focused on a more social campaign, I wouldn't try in a dungeon crawl, but you do have your normal trapfinding things.
Max Sense Motive, Perception, Acrobatics*, Diplomacy for the core 'jedi' like abilities.
Then you can grab Use Magic Device, Spellcraft, Disable Device or whatever else you need.
*You lose acrobatics as a class skill, but still probably want 3 ranks anyway for fighting defensively/full defensive boost and to qualify for snake style. Maxing might be unnecessary, but I guess it might be fun to take a trait to get it back as a class skill if going for a 'jedi-like' playstyle.
Losing alchemy means you can't create alchemical things (but it's not like it's an alchemist who has brew potion and such, so I've rarely found it incredible). Remember you can always take Craft(Alchemy) anyway if you want, you just won't be 'as fast' at making things.
You also qualify for the Occult Skill Unlocks (Prognostication for Sense Motive, Read Aura for Perception,You don't need to see his identification Hypnotism for Diplomacy).
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The archetype on paper looks all around better flavor and power wise for an investigator, at least to me. Sure, you lose access to brew potion, Mutagen for combat, and the wide variety of buff and polymorph spells of an alchemist, but what you gain in my eyes is ultimately worth it.
You gain so much versatility from the psychic spell list. Rather than just being able to buff, deal melee damage, or skillmonkey, you can now do all of that AND gain crowd control spells, damaging spells, better divination tools, etc. Plus you qualify for occult skill unlocks.
Psychic detective is basically what the class should have been at launch, and I really want to play it in PFS or a new campaign soon.
Just a small note, you don't have access to brew potion as an investigator.
The Psychic Detective loses the +level competence bonus on craft:alchemy checks, but if you still really wanted to create alchemical items quickly as a Psychic Detective, you can always take the Craft: Skill Unlock with Signature Skill feat.
I agree with everything else Denorisn said. Plus, investigators had to take the infusion talent to buff allies, too.
To expand on the question about the spell list:
You cast like the Psychic and have access to the Psychic's spell list (+some extra spells for free). In short, you cast a lot like a bard. The phrenetic amplification you get could boost your offensive or defensive abilities depending on how you want to use it.
For the phrenetic amplification:
*Undercast Surge seems pretty nice at a glance. It would let you spend some of your phrenetic pool to use lower level spell slots to cast an undercast spell, and then advance it to normal strength. If you want to do some control or support:
*Overpowering Mind is good to boost your spell will save DCs for any of your enchantments like dominate person or hold monster or illusions or possessions.
*Mindshield is a good way to up the will saves of a martial friend(s) when you're buffing them with say, haste.
For spells instead of extracts, not only do you have spontaneous casting, but you can summon monsters now to give flanking for yourself or your allies, too. Or use disintegrate.
Telekinetic maneuver as a spell basically replaces several of the Investigator Talents (Toppling Strike, Stealing Strike, Repositioning Strike), which means losing the Level 3 Talent for Phrenetic Meddler is an easy tradeoff, honestly.
I haven't really tested either too much, but the archaeologist bard may be an interesting comparison in terms of role. I'm really thinking the Psychic Detective outscores the Archaeologist Bard in the skill monkey/support role. But I'm kind of curious how they match up in depth.
The phrenetic amplification you get could boost your offensive or defensive abilities depending on how you want to use it.
For the phrenetic amplification:
*Undercast Surge seems pretty nice at a glance. It would let you spend some of your phrenetic pool to use lower level spell slots to cast an undercast spell, and then advance it to normal strength. If you want to do some control or support:*Overpowering Mind is good to boost your spell will save DCs for any of your enchantments like dominate person or hold monster or illusions or possessions.
*Mindshield is a good way to up the will saves of a martial friend(s) when you're buffing them with say, haste.
Keep in mind that you get a ridiculously small phrenic pool, and no psychic discipline to regain points. So at level 4, that Overpowering Mind is a 1/day +1 to the DC of a single spell. Until level 8, Undercast Surge is a 1/day power too. I'm giving up a talent for that? I admit Mindshield is probably the best; I could blow all my points to hand out +2 to Will saves when I cast haste, but it's still not much.
You gain so much versatility from the psychic spell list. Rather than just being able to buff, deal melee damage, or skillmonkey, you can now do all of that AND gain crowd control spells, damaging spells, better divination tools, etc. Plus you qualify for occult skill unlocks.
So what spells would you pick? There are a lot of investigation-type spells that I'd put on scrolls (a big advantage for a spell list vs. alchemy), but what should your bread-and-butter spells be?
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Keep in mind that you get a ridiculously small phrenic pool, and no psychic discipline to regain points. So at level 4, that Overpowering Mind is a 1/day +1 to the DC of a single spell. Until level 8, Undercast Surge is a 1/day power too. I'm giving up a talent for that? I admit Mindshield is probably the best; I could blow all my points to hand out +2 to Will saves when I cast haste, but it's still not much.
It's true that you don't have many points to spend. It's not a super strong ability. I wouldn't take the expanded phrenic pool talent, either. As you said, the one point cost abilities are probably better since the pool is so small. Mindshield is good for buffing allies if that's how you're using your spells. Possibly Relentless Casting at higher levels for it's spell penetration value.
The ability your phrenic pool gives is situational, but honestly most of the Investigator talent options are in a similar category of situational usefulness.
Remember you're giving up the [3rd] level talent, which limits the selection of what talents you could select at that level.
What were you going to choose otherwise? Of the alchemist discoveries, only Mutagen would be better, and it's a one time/day ability that has no progression to more than once a day.
If you absolutely wanted mutagen though, you could take one level of Alchemist to get it along with bombs/splash weapon int damage, and a few extracts and brew potion.
I'm not impressed with the rogue talent options.
I agree that there are a couple of investigator talents that you could a take that would be good: Effortless Aid, Expanded Inspiration, Underworld Inspiration or Quick Study*.
However, it's not like you can't take those at later levels or with feats, though, and some of them you possibly would want to.
*Honestly with the 'jedi build' theme above, Snake Style is an iconic ability, but it also serves to make use of the swift action economy as immediate actions, which doesn't pair well with Quick Study, especially in the first round combat round.
Swift action: activate snake style, Move action to position or study, standard action cast buff spell on self or party (possibly phrenic pool to buff further if necessary?). Or do the standard action to buff and then move action to set up for flank or something.
If you compare just the Phrenic Pool/Amplification to the one talent, it's poor at level 3. But it does scale in usefulness over the course of the game, a bit.
For spells, you have a lot of options - more than the investigator does. The 0th lvl 'knacks' stand out, especially. Detect Magic, Mage Hand, Prestidigitation, Telekinetic Projectile, Read Magic, Dancing Lights, Ghost Sound, Message... All of these are from good to great, especially since you're probably the trapfinder or scout of the party.
The other spells you choose depend on the campaign. If there is going to be a lot of occult adventures related content, then check out the new spells would be good. Otherwise you pretty much have a lot of the normal bard spells, whether you want to be a buff/control/etc.
I like telekinetic maneuver as a good way to help your melee, and like I said above, it's better than several of the investigator talents. You could do some decent crowd control.
There's nice synergy between your Studied Target rounds lasting off of INT, and your Spells per day/DCs. In a way, pretty similar to the Bard's inspire courage charisma/spell dc synergy.
You ask what your bread and butter spells would be, but what were your bread and butter investigator extracts you used before?
Remember you're giving up the [3rd] level talent, which limits the selection of what talents you could select at that level.
What were you going to choose otherwise? Of the alchemist discoveries, only Mutagen would be better, and it's a one time/day ability that has no progression to more than once a day.
I agree that there are a couple of investigator talents that you could a take that would be good: Effortless Aid, Expanded Inspiration, Underworld Inspiration or Quick Study*.
However, it's not like you can't take those at later levels or with feats, though, and some of them you possibly would want to.
Remember, you can always take an hour to brew a new mutagen if you have the time. Also, it lasts for 10 min/level, so it can last for an entire dungeon crawl.
Yeah, Expanded Inspiration, Quick Study, Rogue Talent (trap spotter), maybe Device Talent. There's a lot of good stuff that I'd rather have than a 1/day phrenic amplification.
I like telekinetic maneuver as a good way to help your melee, and like I said above, it's better than several of the investigator talents. You could do some decent crowd control.
There's nice synergy between your Studied Target rounds lasting off of INT, and your Spells per day/DCs. In a way, pretty similar to the Bard's inspire courage charisma/spell dc synergy.
You ask what your bread and butter spells would be, but what were your bread and butter investigator extracts you used before?
Granted, knacks/cantrips are a big advantage over alchemy.
Telekinetic Maneuver is pretty weak unless you pump Int out the wazoo, which I suppose is OK for a pure support/casting build, but that's not the way I want to go (I don't think you get enough spells to really pull that off, unless you go for a Helpful Halfling/Aid Another build to give you something else to do).
For an alchemist/investigator, you could use the Combine Extracts discover to make Shield/Enlarge Person combos and the like, and Barkskin is an easy, medium duration AC buff. Not to mention the natural armor boost of the mutagen. That's all gone on the Psychic Detective.
You do still get Heroism at 3rd-level, and Haste becomes viable now that it's a group buff. But the only good spell I see added from the Psychic list is Anticipate Thoughts, but unless the enemy fails its save, it's worse that Shield. Can a melee Psychic Detective spare the Int or the feats for Spell Focus to make it worthwhile? I'm not sure.
I am curious I have been thinking of a gestalt build, and it was gonna be Investigator//Slayer to get a good mix of utility and combat prowess plus all those skills 6+Int for a Int focused character and virtually all skills except for Fly and Heal.
Anyone have an insight on how this would be bettered or made worse by Psychic Detective Investigator?
I am curious I have been thinking of a gestalt build, and it was gonna be Investigator//Slayer to get a good mix of utility and combat prowess plus all those skills 6+Int for a Int focused character and virtually all skills except for Fly and Heal.
Anyone have an insight on how this would be bettered or made worse by Psychic Detective Investigator?
It looks like the changes push the Investigator toward more of a utility role, and away from buffing. So your Slayer/Investigator would likely be weaker in combat, but have access to more investigation and social magic.
I don't think drastically weaker. Slayer is pretty solid dmg dealer already.
Obviously, a gestalt class is going to be powerful regardless. But the Psychic Detective side loses a lot of buffing ability, and I don't see any other buffing options added by the Psychic spell list. The "psychic detective" concept is probably better served by playing an actual Psychic, maybe with Amateur Investigator.
Anticipate Thoughts looks good at first glance, but unless the target fails its save, it's half the bonus of Shield for a 2nd-level slot. And an Investigator probably doesn't have the Int to make the save DC that great, so it's probably reserved for animals and vermin.
Contagious Zeal is solid, depending on the party, but compared to Haste as a 3rd-level slot? Eh, I'm not so sure.
If you're looking for buffing on the Psychic list, Anticipate Thoughts and Contagious Zeal are awesome.
I'll have to check those out. One thing I like about the spell list is the inclusion of many formerly race-specific spells from the ARG. I really like Blend as an early option for a scouting focused Investigator.
If you're looking for buffing on the Psychic list, Anticipate Thoughts and Contagious Zeal are awesome.I'll have to check those out. One thing I like about the spell list is the inclusion of many formerly race-specific spell from the ARG. I really like Blend for a scouting focused Investigator.
Race-specific spells are still race-specific; inclusion in a spell list doesn't change that. Rather, they are just also allowed for members of the new class who have that race.
Similarly, mythic spells on those new classes' lists still require you to be mythic to cast them. They are just open to more classes now.
If you're looking for buffing on the Psychic list, Anticipate Thoughts and Contagious Zeal are awesome.I'll have to check those out. One thing I like about the spell list is the inclusion of many formerly race-specific spell from the ARG. I really like Blend for a scouting focused Investigator.Race-specific spells are still race-specific; inclusion in a spell list doesn't change that. Rather, they are just also allowed for members of the new class who have that race.
Similarly, mythic spells on those new classes' lists still require you to be mythic to cast them. They are just open to more classes now.
Bummer. :(
I assume that half-elves would still be able to use Blend.
Edit 1: So MA refers to Mythic Adventures. I didn't recognize it because I've never used it.
Edit 2: And I need to separate the Monster Codex spells as well. Thanks for the information, Mark. You saved me from some future problems. :)
Contagious Zeal is solid, depending on the party, but compared to Haste as a 3rd-level slot? Eh, I'm not so sure.
It looks like Haste and Contagious Zeal would work really well together. It would be really good choice if there is another player to cast haste. If you have a Bard who uses Inspire Courage a lot, then C.Z. isn't a very good choice.
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Contagious Zeal is solid, depending on the party, but compared to Haste as a 3rd-level slot? Eh, I'm not so sure.It looks like Haste and Contagious Zeal would work really well together. It would be really good choice if there is another player to cast haste. If you have a Bard who uses Inspire Courage a lot, then C.Z. isn't a very good choice.
CZ is a morale bonus to hit and damage, inspire courage is a competence bonus. They stack just fine.
CZ is a morale bonus to hit and damage, inspire courage is a competence bonus. They stack just fine.Contagious Zeal is solid, depending on the party, but compared to Haste as a 3rd-level slot? Eh, I'm not so sure.It looks like Haste and Contagious Zeal would work really well together. It would be really good choice if there is another player to cast haste. If you have a Bard who uses Inspire Courage a lot, then C.Z. isn't a very good choice.
My mistake. I always get that wrong since Inspire Courage grants a morale bonus to saves. A Haste/Inspire Courage/Contagious Zeal combo would be very nice then.
Contagious Zeal is solid, depending on the party, but compared to Haste as a 3rd-level slot? Eh, I'm not so sure.It looks like Haste and Contagious Zeal would work really well together. It would be really good choice if there is another player to cast haste. If you have a Bard who uses Inspire Courage a lot, then C.Z. isn't a very good choice.
Sure, they'd work well, but I don't want to spend 2 rounds and 2 3rd-level spell slots buffing up for a single fight.
Sure, they'd work well, but I don't want to spend 2 rounds and 2 3rd-level spell slots buffing up for a single fight.Contagious Zeal is solid, depending on the party, but compared to Haste as a 3rd-level slot? Eh, I'm not so sure.It looks like Haste and Contagious Zeal would work really well together. It would be really good choice if there is another player to cast haste. If you have a Bard who uses Inspire Courage a lot, then C.Z. isn't a very good choice.
Well, I was thinking that you probably have other people in the party who can cast Haste or use Inspire Courage.
Well, I was thinking that you probably have other people in the party who can cast Haste or use Inspire Courage.Sure, they'd work well, but I don't want to spend 2 rounds and 2 3rd-level spell slots buffing up for a single fight.Contagious Zeal is solid, depending on the party, but compared to Haste as a 3rd-level slot? Eh, I'm not so sure.It looks like Haste and Contagious Zeal would work really well together. It would be really good choice if there is another player to cast haste. If you have a Bard who uses Inspire Courage a lot, then C.Z. isn't a very good choice.
Maybe, but I play pretty much exclusively PFS, so I can't count on particular kinds of support. One game I might be the only melee character, and another I might be the only buffing spellcaster.
Ok. I don't play PFS.
Playing around with this idea again lately, and it occurred to me that with no need for free hands to cast spells or drink extracts, a darkwood shield should easily make up for the loss of barkskin. Sword-and-board might be the way to go, with mirror image as a go-to first-round buff.
What about for non-gestalt?
If you're looking for buffing on the Psychic list, Anticipate Thoughts and Contagious Zeal are awesome.I'll have to check those out. One thing I like about the spell list is the inclusion of many formerly race-specific spell from the ARG. I really like Blend for a scouting focused Investigator.Race-specific spells are still race-specific; inclusion in a spell list doesn't change that. Rather, they are just also allowed for members of the new class who have that race.
Similarly, mythic spells on those new classes' lists still require you to be mythic to cast them. They are just open to more classes now.
What's the difference between spells available for anyone that just happen to be introduced in a specific race's entry and spells exclusive to that race introduced in that race's entry?
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What's the difference between spells available for anyone that just happen to be introduced in a specific race's entry and spells exclusive to that race introduced in that race's entry?If you're looking for buffing on the Psychic list, Anticipate Thoughts and Contagious Zeal are awesome.I'll have to check those out. One thing I like about the spell list is the inclusion of many formerly race-specific spell from the ARG. I really like Blend for a scouting focused Investigator.Race-specific spells are still race-specific; inclusion in a spell list doesn't change that. Rather, they are just also allowed for members of the new class who have that race.
Similarly, mythic spells on those new classes' lists still require you to be mythic to cast them. They are just open to more classes now.
For PFS, all spells that appear in a race's entry are racial spells. For a home game, ask your GM.
Note: Alternate racial traits, racial archetypes, racial evolutions, racial feats, and racial spells are only available for characters of the associated race. Racial equipment and magic items can be purchased and used by any race as long as the specific item permits it (for example, only halflings can purchase and use solidsmoke pipeweed).
The new alchemist discovery on page 44 is legal for play for characters of all races.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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*uses a medium to contact the thread*
I was just introduced to this archtype. With some of the half elf options on RoIS, I think it makes for a good support character, my favorite kind.
Swap out to get Longbow, (or just use pistol crossbow and the entangle bolts ruling) to have a debuff when the spells run low, and then from there skill monkey.
I look foward to my Gambit style investigator. :-)
Serious question. Since they use psychic spells... they can use wands right?
Yes, they have a real caster level so they can use wands, staves, and scrolls like any other caster.
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To be honest the biggest thing this archetype gives up it is access to Empiricist. You can build a better skill money with Empiricist then with Physic.
Spells are both better and worse. Long casting time spells like enlarge person are much better as extracts, but the spells are more varied. Empty spell slots are far more powerful as extract than for spells, taking only 1 min to fill. Losing mutagen can be a hit for dex investigators who need every damage boost they can get.
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I keep looking at this one, cause I agree that it could be a lot of fun. But since I play PFS exclusively, I always end up deciding against it. My issue is with the Psychic Meddler ability:
Psychic Meddler (Su): At 2nd level, a psychic detective receives a +1 bonus on saves against psychic spells and spell-like abilities. This bonus increases by 1 at 5th level and every 3 levels thereafter, to a maximum of +6 at 17th level. Starting at 5th level, the psychic investigator adds half this bonus on caster level checks to dispel psychic effects. This ability replaces poison lore, poison resistance, swift alchemy, and poison immunity.
There's six seasons of bad guys and monsters with poison, but only a handful of scenarios with psychic stuff. I just feel like the ability gives up too much for PFS. If they hadn't also replaced Swift Alchemy, then I'd do this in a heartbeat combo'd with Empiricist.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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To be honest the biggest thing this archetype gives up it is access to Empiricist. You can build a better skill money with Empiricist then with Physic.
Spells are both better and worse. Long casting time spells like enlarge person are much better as extracts, but the spells are more varied. Empty spell slots are far more powerful as extract than for spells, taking only 1 min to fill. Losing mutagen can be a hit for dex investigators who need every damage boost they can get.
I've been mulling the archetype, and still enjoy it. Being a spontaneous caster means my preferred style of casting. Being an intelligence based spontaneous caster, makes my heart soar. With the full psychic spell list available as 'spells known' fair use of scrolls, wands and runestones of power (and if there's a psychic equivelent of pages of spell knowledge out there) I can make a pretty flexible character, even w/o alchemy. I look forward to playing one. :-)
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I've been mulling the archetype, and still enjoy it. Being a spontaneous caster means my preferred style of casting. Being an intelligence based spontaneous caster, makes my heart soar. With the full psychic spell list available as 'spells known' fair use of scrolls, wands and runestones of power (and if there's a psychic equivelent of pages of spell knowledge out there) I can make a pretty flexible character, even w/o alchemy. I look forward to playing one. :-)To be honest the biggest thing this archetype gives up it is access to Empiricist. You can build a better skill money with Empiricist then with Physic.
Spells are both better and worse. Long casting time spells like enlarge person are much better as extracts, but the spells are more varied. Empty spell slots are far more powerful as extract than for spells, taking only 1 min to fill. Losing mutagen can be a hit for dex investigators who need every damage boost they can get.
It's an awesome archetype and one the fundamentally changes the class, which in nice. I think spontaneous casting is preferred for a lot of people and they will enjoy this archetype. As a support character the Psychic is stronger. You have better suport spells and don't have to take infusion. As a skill monkey and/or melee character I think the Empiricist wins. With more skills covered by it and better buffs this build leans toward skill monkey combat bit more. I think over all the differences are marginal and the RP for either is fun.
I keep looking at this one, cause I agree that it could be a lot of fun. But since I play PFS exclusively, I always end up deciding against it. My issue is with the Psychic Meddler ability:
Psychic Meddler (Su): At 2nd level, a psychic detective receives a +1 bonus on saves against psychic spells and spell-like abilities. This bonus increases by 1 at 5th level and every 3 levels thereafter, to a maximum of +6 at 17th level. Starting at 5th level, the psychic investigator adds half this bonus on caster level checks to dispel psychic effects. This ability replaces poison lore, poison resistance, swift alchemy, and poison immunity.There's six seasons of bad guys and monsters with poison, but only a handful of scenarios with psychic stuff. I just feel like the ability gives up too much for PFS. If they hadn't also replaced Swift Alchemy, then I'd do this in a heartbeat combo'd with Empiricist.
Season 7 has a lot of, as my fellow local PFS players like to put it, occult bullshit init.
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I just finished developing an android psychic detective investigator (with a one level dip in techslinger gunslinger) choosing the psi-tech discoveries (Occult Realms) Force Field and Laser Blast as the phrenic amplifications chosen with the Phrenic Dabbler feature and as the one phrenic amplification allowed as an investigator talent.
Looks like a lot of fun, even though I had to compromise in some areas to get certain things: had to invest in Cha to qualify for the Empathy android feat (psychic spells use an emotion component), needed to take Weapon Focus to qualify for Ranged Study, used a lot of WBL on a +2 inssuit (nice AC vs. ranged touch energy attacks, though) and a +1 shock arc pistol, etc. Still, with shield, bullet shield, and heroism as spells known (along with resist energy and a lesser Extend metamagic rod; as well as ear-piercing scream, magic missile, true strike, anticipate thoughts, force punch, mind thrust III, and greater oneric horror), the character should be able to function pretty well in combat; the +1 fate stealing rapier and ring of grit mastery should help a bit, also.
Also, a psychic detective investigator looks like a perfect fit for the Strange Aeons AP next year...
I'd say yes if he uses an ability that lets him learn a phrenic amplification and there's a story reason why he should be able to pick it up. I'd say no for the feat option available to psychics.