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Building a new Paladin for a campaign where the DM is known to throw all sorts of stuff at his groups. I was thinking about having him wear medium armor more pacifically an Armor Coat.
Is the skill penalties for heavy armor worth worrying about or should I stick with building AC as much as possible?
It really depends on the character. For the most part paladins don’t have many class skills that are affected by the armor check penalty, and they don’t get many skill points to begin with. They also tend to have lower DEX because they are better of putting their points into other stats. This means that a paladin is usually not going to be very good at things like acrobatics, climbing, and stealth. If that is the case you might as well wear heavy armor.
The idea behind the armoured coat is 'oh crap we're getting attacked and I left my real armour in the rack', at least in concept.
As far as heavy armour versus medium? It's ... up to you, how dexterous you want to be, and so on. And whether you think it's extra cool to clank around in full plate (yes) or whether you're better served in a breastplate (yes) or if you would rather be an agile paladin in a chain shirt (yes). I may not have had good advice regarding those three choices ...
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I'm tempted to switch from mithral full plate to a breastplate just for the movement distance
You know your GM better than the rest of us. And its a roleplaying game, so do what you want.
But mechanically an armored coat is generally considered (significantly) worse than a chain shirt. Unless that 50gp is really worth 10' of movement and 5 lbs of encumbrance.
Generally most people decide on light (after magical modification) or heavy as medium armor is mathematically sub optimal in most ways.
I'm guessing you mean this as 'most people setting up fighters and/or paladins', as not all classes have heavy armour?
But I was thinking more in the terms of survivability of the character. Does lay on hands make up for the lack of AC.
No.
Lay on hands will generally be less than half the damage you are taking on a hit. With a lower AC you will also get critical hits confirmed against you more often -- which is a lot more than will get healed quickly.
You don't need to go all in on AC, but you should still try to keep a respectable AC. Most of my Paladins have been Medium Armor, and once they can afford it Mithral Agile Breastplate for the added movement.
I know some people don't like it, but you could pair your Armoured Coat with an Armoured Kilt. That way you'd get 1 higher AC and when you pull off/on the coat in an emergency you'll still be wearing light armour without it, although it'll count as heavy armour while wearing both and not be nearly as good as real heavy armour.
However, as other people have said, unless you're using Dex as a main stat you should probably stick with heavy, preferably made of mithral.
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Also, specifically, not pacifically.
I know some people don't like it, but you could pair your Armoured Coat with an Armoured Kilt. That way you'd get 1 higher AC and when you pull off/on the coat in an emergency you'll still be wearing light armour without it, although it'll count as heavy armour while wearing both and not be nearly as good as real heavy armour.
However, as other people have said, unless you're using Dex as a main stat you should probably stick with heavy, preferably made of mithral....
Also, specifically, not pacifically.
Unless you like your maneuverability and can't stand being a 20ft move speed blob. Then go with mithril Breastplate. Mithril fullplate costs as much as +2 Mithril Breasplate anyway, so you aren't missing out on much(and by the time you would want to bump it up to +3 and spend even more, celestial is on the horison).
Unless you like your maneuverability and can't stand being a 20ft move speed blob. Then go with mithril Breastplate. Mithril fullplate costs as much as +2 Mithril Breasplate anyway, so you aren't missing out on much(and by the time you would want to bump it up to +3 and spend even more, celestial is on the horison).
Very true.
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Unless you like your maneuverability and can't stand being a 20ft move speed blob. Then go with mithril Breastplate. Mithril fullplate costs as much as +2 Mithril Breasplate anyway, so you aren't missing out on much(and by the time you would want to bump it up to +3 and spend even more, celestial is on the horison).Very true.
Celestial... Thank you!
Just keep a couple of potions of Swift Girding around.
SWIFT GIRDING:
With a sweep of your hand, you select a number of targets and the same number of suits of armor.
The targets of this spell are immediately clad in the armor that you choose. The subjects of the spell must be capable of wearing the chosen armor, cannot be wearing other armor, and must be able to properly fit into the chosen armor.
The chosen armor must be empty and cannot be currently worn by another creature (thus you cannot move armor from one wearer to another with this spell). Creatures armored with this spell are considered to have donned the armor properly.
Paladins DO have access to the Effortless Armor spell, which negates the speed and check penalties for a brief period of time.
I dunno, spell slots are rather valuable for litanies
if you;re a ranged paladin, you definitely want lighter armor, at least to save some money anyway.
Heavy armor is a big deal at low level. Full Plate and a spell or two will make you nearly invincible. AC around 22 is a huge edge an achievable. Carry a spare chain shirt for jumping puzzles.
SWIFT GIRDING:
FYI: Source is Pathfinder Player Companion: Knights of the Inner Sea
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I know some people don't like it, but you could pair your Armoured Coat with an Armoured Kilt. That way you'd get 1 higher AC...
That's not how the Armored Kilt works at all. It provides an armor bonus - the armored coat provides an armor bonus. They don't stack!
The reason to wear an armored kilt (OP for heavy armor characters by the by - hence PFS banned) is because getting +5 full plate & +1 armored kilt with fortification etc if FAR cheaper than putting fortification etc onto your +5 full plate.
Another possible path- iroran paladin.
They are usually thought of as an ineffective monk-ish archetype, but if you forgo unarmed strikes (very, very little real support for unarmed strike styles in that archetype- you might as well just take oath against fiends so you have the option to use divine bond on armor too) and just use a regular 2 hander or something, you can actually find it as an interesting choice.
One of the interesting facets of this archetype is that it adds your cha onto your dex for AC (1 mod per level...but by level 3, your cha will never really exceed your level, so it is mostly moot), but only when in light or no armor. While you actually have to worry about max dex (you hit it VERY easily at times, even with modest cha/dex), that means you can get full plate like protection while in lighter fare (I would usually go mithral breast plate, since it counts as light for this stuff).
The archetype still keeps cha to saves, lay on hands, mercies, and spells. So, with AC about on par with heavy armor, you can still work as a fairly good tank.
Another important change is it switches out smite. While that is something of a downgrade at times, the replacement is nice enough with its bonuses (similar to inquisitor's judgment) and it actually provides a lot more flexibility since it is not alignment based (it is more like you just get yourself pumped for the fight). So you can use it on neutral opponents. The loss of detect evil seems less troublesome with that, since you don't have to worry about an enemy's alignmnet. That archetype also implies that you can write your own paladin code (check with your GM though- some might take that as fluff), which can make you a lot more flexible paladin.
I also like Mithral Breastplate for movement purposes.
Celestial Plate will eventually be the better of the armors, when coupled with Effortless Armor and either Magic Vestment or Vestment of the Champion going.
Myself, I like mixing in the Sacred Servant to nab the Travel Domain, and cast a Longstrider as well so my move speed is 50.
The Paladin is an imperfect cross between Cleric and Fighter, but even more dependent on multiple Ability Scores (Str, Con, Wis, Cha) than a Fighter (Str, Con) or Cleric (Con, Wis, Cha). Adding a fourth score to be nursed along all but neuters what you should be doing. With one or two more scores, that are virtually required, adding Dex is not really as beneficial to that role. I deeply boned both my 3.+ Pallys on both Dex and Int, never regretted it.
Before I get too far afield, one of those games allowed 'called' armor and hammer (but not shield) to the Paladins as replacement class features. I remember losing cure disease and something else for that.
A different play style can alter the basics, as claudekennilol noted a bow focused Paladin really needs Dex, relying on Class levels to get by. A mobility or sea game would make master_marshmallow the man to follow. Buy or GM a pizza and figure out which way the game is going. Oddly, most of my suggestions to player with GM problems start with buying them a pizza...
A Weapon Finesse Paladin is also a possibility if you want to keep things light and agile. Two-handed Agile Elven Curved Blade can come pretty close to normal two-handed Paladin damage, and Fencing Grace or Slashing Grace weapon-and-buckler is pretty much the same as normal sword-and-shield. The biggest difference is having to spend some resources. With Fencing/Slashing Grace you can even potentially use Amateur Swashbuckler and Swordmaster's Flair: Blue Scarf for some serious tactical expertise.
That's not how the Armored Kilt works at all. It provides an armor bonus - the armored coat provides an armor bonus. They don't stack!Under the original wording, it did add a +1 to AC. Under its more recent wording, it only makes your armor heavier and changes the proficiency to a higher level.
...So what's the point of it then?
And before I hear +1 fortification, how are you getting around the fact that you only have 1 armor slot. With some +3 breastplate or something as well, you still have 2 items trying to occupy the same 1 magic item slot, so one of them switches off. The text of Armored Kilt doesn't make any changes to how magic items function. You would simply be wearing a +1 fortification kilt and a +3 breastplate, one of which is shut off.
Another possible path- iroran paladin.
They are usually thought of as an ineffective monk-ish archetype, but if you forgo unarmed strikes (very, very little real support for unarmed strike styles in that archetype- you might as well just take oath against fiends so you have the option to use divine bond on armor too) and just use a regular 2 hander or something, you can actually find it as an interesting choice.
One of the interesting facets of this archetype is that it adds your cha onto your dex for AC (1 mod per level...but by level 3, your cha will never really exceed your level, so it is mostly moot), but only when in light or no armor. While you actually have to worry about max dex (you hit it VERY easily at times, even with modest cha/dex), that means you can get full plate like protection while in lighter fare (I would usually go mithral breast plate, since it counts as light for this stuff).
The archetype still keeps cha to saves, lay on hands, mercies, and spells. So, with AC about on par with heavy armor, you can still work as a fairly good tank.
Another important change is it switches out smite. While that is something of a downgrade at times, the replacement is nice enough with its bonuses (similar to inquisitor's judgment) and it actually provides a lot more flexibility since it is not alignment based (it is more like you just get yourself pumped for the fight). So you can use it on neutral opponents. The loss of detect evil seems less troublesome with that, since you don't have to worry about an enemy's alignmnet. That archetype also implies that you can write your own paladin code (check with your GM though- some might take that as fluff), which can make you a lot more flexible paladin.
This guide for Iroran paladins claims that the archetype can surpass the standard paladin for both offensive and defensive capabilities using unarmed strikes. The secret is to take 1 level of Sohei and get the Brawling enchantment on your armor.
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And lay on hands can help with lower AC but you need to work a bit for it.
Take Fey foundling, +2 to healed amount per dice
Greater mercy, +1d6 when no need for mercy with LoHSo let's take a 10th level paladin, when you are not in need of mercy, you heal 6d6+12, averaging...
Also remember there are the Bracers of the Merciful Knight (16000ish GP) which increases a Paladin's level for the purposes of Lay on Hands by 4 and the level 1 spell Hero's Defiance that allows you to use Lay on Hands as an immediate action when you drop below 0 HP and increases the amount healed by 1d6.
This gives your level 10 paladin a standard use of Lay on Hands of 8d6+16 [average 44hp] (5d6 from level, 1d6 from Greater mercy, 2d6 from Bracers) and an emergency use of 9d6+18 [average 49.5hp]
The Paladin is an imperfect cross between Cleric and Fighter, but even more dependent on multiple Ability Scores (Str, Con, Wis, Cha)
Where does the paladin depend on Wis?
Yes in 3.5 Paladins used Wis for spells but in PF they use Cha. They can even dump it without worrying for the Will save in a particular manner.
This guide for Iroran paladins claims that the archetype can surpass the standard paladin for both offensive and defensive capabilities using unarmed strikes....
Sure, sure. But that can be a bit hard to work with at times, since you have shaky support and need for work arounds and a lot of feats for it to fully work. It can be a flavor that scares people off.
2 handed weapons are the easy out. No one exactly complains about them too much- they are a simple baseline for melee combat. One feat, power attack, possibly taken at level 1, and it is online. Maybe combat reflexes if you want to use a reach weapon.
And the archetype works fine if you use it like that. If you mostly just use it as a way for AC while wearing light armor (which can include mithral breastplates), and with a more morally flexible damage booster... you can do fine.
I believe heavy armor is not worth for paladins. Well at first levels it is worthwhile, but later on it's not. If you wish larger AC and have no DEX, just take 1 lvl in oracle and use CHA for AC and CMD.
For most PC paladins, like most PC characters in general, heavy armor is useful only in a fairly narrow level range. For certain specific paladins, then it can be useful: a dwarf paladin with boots of striding and springing and adamantine tatami-do (even better with a dip in cleric for the Travel domain), a paladin focused on mounted combat (probably a gnome or halfling, since Large mounts have issues in many campaigns), etc.