A lot of folks talk about how wizards are gods. I've even heard that a fighter-wizard team could be better served by a wizard-wizard team.
I've also heard people claim that wizards are weak at low levels and have a difficult time surviving low levels, and this is often used as justification for why they're so powerful at high levels.
Regardless if anybof this is true, how would you build a four person wizard group capable of surviving and/or thriving through various adventure paths? This includes survivablity at low levels and the team should be capable of covering all the bases of group dynamics.
Let's assume a 15 point buy, and any Paizo material is allowed. No multiclassing.
1 focused on conjuration for summons, another on conjuration for CC, one focused on utility and buffs and the fourth being utility and stuff like charm person and what not.
there should be enough spells slots amongst them all to last a lot of encounters in a day. probably they should use scythes for coup de grace. everyone should have color spray and sleep.
they all obviously have a ton of skills so knowledge should be covered fairly easily then everyone probably has at least a few ranks in climb or swim
MAYBE just MAYBE one could focus on necromancy and animate dead.
Are people talking about how "wizards" are gods, or how "casters" more generally, are gods? The usual way I've seen that phrased is as an all-caster party, in which case a group consisting of summoner, cleric, wizard, and druid will usually ROFLstomp most APs.
The summoner's eidolon and the druid's animal companion will provide the necessary muscle to handle the physical aspects of most encounters. These can be supplemented if necessary by summon spells, which all four characters can cast. Buffing, healing, and status removal can of course be handled by the cleric, while most of the necessary skill-monkey aspects can be handled either by summoned monsters or by spells such as spider climb or knock.
If you really want an all wizard party, a conjurer wizard can handle much of the summoner's job. The hardest role to fill is probably the cleric's, but with use of the Int-to-UMD trait, it's not that hard to use restorative devices. Alternatively, a samsaran wizard can plunder many of the spells from the witch or bard list to become a decent fake cleric. With a suitable admixture evocation specialist to handle damage dealing and a Treantmonk-style battlefield controller, it's not that hard to see how that works.
At higher levels, of course, summoned monsters can pick up the slack, too. You need a bard? Summon a lilend azata....
This is a challenge for an all wizard party, not an all caster party. I already know an all caster party can dominate an AP.
And yes, I've heard the phrase "God wizard" enough to justify my opening statements.
specifically this is related to another thread where people seemed to think if you ran an AP with only wizards they would all be dead by the end of the first book. no more no less. so, i'm merely trying to prove that they can survive without a fighter beat stick to help them.
we went with all wizards since clerics and what not fill the martial role very well, so it's more of just seeing if you can rely fully on casting to survive at low levels.
so this discussion should focus in around levels 1-4 to be useful, in my opinion.
edit: can the wizards share spells? if so they should aim for no overlap.
A "God wizard" is a wizard who handles situations through battlefield-control and so on, rather than trying to win battles on their own.
Also used in the context of level 17+ wizards who can literally do pretty much anything they can imagine.
And yes, I've heard the phrase "God wizard" enough to justify my opening statements.
At level one, everyone spams summon monster followed by color spray or sleep. Burning hands is available for swarms, as well as charm person for social encounters. Since everyone is a wizard, everyone has access to those spells if anyone does.
Looking at book 1 of Skull and Shackles, I don't see any problems.
On board the Wormwood, you have enough skill points (yay, Int-based caster) to survive the day-to-day life. Losing the gladitorial bout doesn't actually hurt anyone. The spell load described above is great for handling most of the mass combats. By the time you get to the island, protection from evil should be in everyone's spellbook.
Low levels: This is going to be the most difficult, since Summon Monster I is not worth it with a duration of 1/round. I would probably say that one of the wizard should be a more STR/CON melee build (he will eventually be casting buffs) and help tank for the party. That, or liberal use of Silent Image for control and avoidance. Of course, Color Spray for control, and if you encounter undead, Silent Image up a wall and run. If you are less scrupulous wizards, Charm Person some brash and strong-looking youth from town and ask him/her politely to help you.
Low-mid Levels: One of the wizards (preferably the STR/CON one) should take Acadeamae Graduate to summon monsters to tank for the party, and try to buff up his FORT save for the feat. The rest of the wizards should mostly have strong control spells like Glitterdust or Pyrotechnics, although it's a good idea to have one wizard with persistent damage spells to clean up enemies. Rope Trick is necessary for survival.
Mid Levels: Solid Fog and the likes makes battles far easier. The Academae Graduate summoner can probably make the FORT save consistently now. Once level 9 comes around, you don't even need summon tanking anymore. Magic Jar something strong and go to town, and just renew the magic jar every so often. or Planar Binding some outsiders into helping you if you are of that persuasion. Alternatively, find some barbarians and "volunteer" them into your service. At least someone has to have dominate person, right?
Anything above mid levels doesn't really need an explanation.
Low levels: This is going to be the most difficult, since Summon Monster I is not worth it with a duration of 1/round. I would probably say that one of the wizard should be a more STR/CON melee build (he will eventually be casting buffs) and help tank for the party. That, or liberal use of Silent Image for control and avoidance. Of course, Color Spray for control, and if you encounter undead, Silent Image up a wall and run. If you are less scrupulous wizards, Charm Person some brash and strong-looking youth from town and ask him/her politely to help you.
actually he will eventually be the bloodmoney guy :3
I texted this question to a friend of mine; we're both at work so can't really do a full analysis, but here was his suggestion:
Conjuration. Samsaran spell sage(alternatively life necromancer). Spellslinger. And a transmutation shape changer.
I might even add on that the spellslinger should use Words of Power for more blaster power.
God Wizard is a role... its another name for a controller wizard who "acts as a god" by altering the battle just enough to allow his peons to succeed.
God Wizard is a role... its another name for a controller wizard who "acts as a god" by altering the battle just enough to allow his peons to succeed.
I have seen that definition, too. :)
All-wizard Kingmaker would be pretty doable.
All-wizard Rise of the Runelords should be fine, with only a couple rough spots.
All-wizard Curse of the Crimson Throne... Heh. I don't think they'll enjoy book 2. At all. (Though they may do better if they have a samsaran cherry picking the witch spell list...) (Aside: <3 samsaran wizards.)
All-wizard Serpent's Skull - They'll be fine if they make it past book 1. But only if they make it past book 1. Bunch of nerds needing to survive in a hostile jungle, with not a shop in sight...
All-wizard Reign of Winter... Hmmm. I'd expect deaths, though maybe not a TPK. When Reign of Winter is mean, it's mean.
All-wizard Carrion Crown? Ha, that's going to be rough. (Though one of the times where being a necromancer or evoker (undead have lousy reflex saves) could actually be a good choice.)
serpent's skull -> they got SOOO many skill points though.
edit: never played AP so i don't know if they don't get spell books or something.
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Because not everyone has the necessary six weeks (or whatever) to run that particular experiment. If I want to know whether or not redwood trees can live for more than a thousand years, my best bet is to ask a botanist, not plant a tree in my back garden.
Or how about can the discussion and ACTUALLY PLAY to see if it works? I know... it's a radical idea. I'd like to see how many survive first level with a GM that doesn't make any allowances for them.specifically this is related to another thread where people seemed to think if you ran an AP with only wizards they would all be dead by the end of the first book. no more no less. so, i'm merely trying to prove that they can survive without a fighter beat stick to help them.
we went with all wizards since clerics and what not fill the martial role very well, so it's more of just seeing if you can rely fully on casting to survive at low levels.
so this discussion should focus in around levels 1-4 to be useful, in my opinion.
edit: can the wizards share spells? if so they should aim for no overlap.
this is in relation to kyrk-rider and Wrath doing just this, kyrk is going to make 4 wizards and play them through the first book of RotRLs. I assume bookrat was interested in how others would accomplish this.
I texted this question to a friend of mine; we're both at work so can't really do a full analysis, but here was his suggestion:
Conjuration. Samsaran spell sage(alternatively life necromancer). Spellslinger. And a transmutation shape changer.
I might even add on that the spellslinger should use Words of Power for more blaster power.
Lv1 Transmuter.I texted this question to a friend of mine; we're both at work so can't really do a full analysis, but here was his suggestion:
Conjuration. Samsaran spell sage(alternatively life necromancer). Spellslinger. And a transmutation shape changer.
I might even add on that the spellslinger should use Words of Power for more blaster power.
use myth-weavers it's DndSheets ++ i'm not joking it's exactly teh same except all of the text boxes work correctly.
serpent's skull -> they got SOOO many skill points though.
edit: never played AP so i don't know if they don't get spell books or something.
"So many skill points" is way, way less impressive if you only have a +0 to +3 in the relevant skill, though. These are the levels where that +3 from class skills matters the most.
Having a lot of skills doesn't matter if you outright suck at the ones you need to stay alive.
I suspect they'd be picking traits with an eye towards making it off that island alive.
They'll have their starting spell books, but the only spells they're learning are the ones from leveling up.
Because they don't even have the materials needed to learn spells off of each other. Unless the GM really feels sorry for them.
Ha, that's great.
Edit: Heh, you could also wind up with the wizards being very reliant on their familiars to cover the various skills that animals are often good at but wizards are often rubbish at. Though familiars might not be replaceable if they die...
this is in relation to kyrk-rider and Wrath doing just this, kyrk is going to make 4 wizards and play them through the first book of RotRLs. I assume bookrat was interested in how others would accomplish this.Or how about can the discussion and ACTUALLY PLAY to see if it works? I know... it's a radical idea. I'd like to see how many survive first level with a GM that doesn't make any allowances for them.specifically this is related to another thread where people seemed to think if you ran an AP with only wizards they would all be dead by the end of the first book. no more no less. so, i'm merely trying to prove that they can survive without a fighter beat stick to help them.
we went with all wizards since clerics and what not fill the martial role very well, so it's more of just seeing if you can rely fully on casting to survive at low levels.
so this discussion should focus in around levels 1-4 to be useful, in my opinion.
edit: can the wizards share spells? if so they should aim for no overlap.
Well I'm looking at the AP and the initial goblin fights are basically impossible to lose. The skeletons in part two are likewise very easy. Get free XP at Rusty Dragon. The glassworks has more throwaway goblin fights with goblins using tactics that are basically guaranteed to fail. Tsuto might be a threat since his saves are mighty good, but his weakest is humorously Will but even then he's at 50/50 chance of auto-loss even against an 18 INT Wizard. Freshly Level 2, the going gets easier.
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Or how about can the discussion and ACTUALLY PLAY to see if it works? I know... it's a radical idea. I'd like to see how many survive first level with a GM that doesn't make any allowances for them.specifically this is related to another thread where people seemed to think if you ran an AP with only wizards they would all be dead by the end of the first book. no more no less. so, i'm merely trying to prove that they can survive without a fighter beat stick to help them.
we went with all wizards since clerics and what not fill the martial role very well, so it's more of just seeing if you can rely fully on casting to survive at low levels.
so this discussion should focus in around levels 1-4 to be useful, in my opinion.
edit: can the wizards share spells? if so they should aim for no overlap.
I actually am. I KNOW! ITS AMAZING!
If you had even bothered to read the opening post instead of being the normal jackass that you are, you'd see that my question was directed towards what kind of parties would others build, not whether or not it would be possible to do it.
So why don't you try being constructive instead of being condescending for once? And if you can't manage to do that, then go the f away.
...you'd see that my question was directed towards what kind of parties would others build, not whether or not it would be possible to do it.
Thin defense to rally on - but I actually failed to read this point in the OP myself.
Still, answering that question: I'd personally put down a necromancer, a conjurer, a "god wizard" and a...not sure? Maybe a blaster?
Magic-ing your way through social encounters doesn't particularly demand focus on doing it. At least, thumbing through, I'm not finding many NPCs early on whom will shrug off attempts to charm them in APs.
That and you can pretty much use intelligence to social skills with a couple of traits. Knowledge is already a given.
Perception? Get the right familiars and together, you aren't awful for it. Not much else seems 100% essential.
But until doing actual work - I'm being thoroughly hypothetical at best, myself.
Edit:
To survive level 1 you'd need a sleep focused wiz... Even then I think they'd blow their load on the first or second encounter
Skipping sections because these are points I want to address specifically - Color Spray would strikes me as a far cheaper (in spells used) and stronger means to achieve the same effect early on. Dropping off in usefulness at level 3 perhaps, when some momentum starts to kick in anyway (to my experiences).
Sleep has the advantage of range, and with the CdG summoner can eliminate threats from safety/stealth. I included a Color Spray (CS) wiz in that line up (for defensive purposes).
Good points - (CS) did not translate for me. No idea what I read into that previously because now nothing else makes sense.
You want both. Nobody becomes a Specialist in Enchantment or Illusion, but both are great assets to the team early on.
Assuming you have some experience at hand (build or play) - what works out best? Everyone has one of each, or someone has a smattering of both? [Myriad of other plausible replies here]?
To survive level 1 you'd need a sleep focused wiz, a CS focused wiz, a summoning focused one (who can command his summons to CdG),That's going to be difficult especially since it's been erratted that celestial/infernal/whatever templated animals do not have the respective celestial/infernal/whatever languages, and I don't think you can summon anything with Summon Monster 1 that has a language.
is there a reason the animal wouldn't naturally try to coup de grace a helpless enemy.
...
And today I learnt that seemingly pointless experiments actually can bring (me at least) some strategy insights.
is there a reason the animal wouldn't naturally try to coup de grace a helpless enemy.Read the text of the summon spell. If you don't have a means to communicate with your summon creature, all it will do is attack your enemies using the methods it knows, and the habit's typical to it's race.
That doesn't quite answer the question. I mean, would the creatures on the summon monster one list conceivably perform CDGs naturally?
...And today I learnt that seemingly pointless experiments actually can bring (me at least) some strategy insights.
That doesn't quite answer the question. I mean, would the creatures on the summon monster one list conceivably perform CDGs naturally?is there a reason the animal wouldn't naturally try to coup de grace a helpless enemy.Read the text of the summon spell. If you don't have a means to communicate with your summon creature, all it will do is attack your enemies using the methods it knows, and the habit's typical to it's race.
I would believe that the dog, eagle, and viper all would naturally.
is there a reason the animal wouldn't naturally try to coup de grace a helpless enemy.To survive level 1 you'd need a sleep focused wiz, a CS focused wiz, a summoning focused one (who can command his summons to CdG),That's going to be difficult especially since it's been erratted that celestial/infernal/whatever templated animals do not have the respective celestial/infernal/whatever languages, and I don't think you can summon anything with Summon Monster 1 that has a language.Read the text of the summon spell. If you don't have a means to communicate with your summon creature, all it will do is attack your enemies using the methods it knows, and the habit's typical to it's race.
Also note that at level 1, you only have them for the single round AFTER you've cast the spell.
right so why wouldn't it coup de grace a helpless enemy? animals tend to go for the throat of helpless enemies...
If you allow archetypes I think survivability at low levels improves dramatically (e.g., I think Spirit Whisperer gives access to channel positive energy).
Yeah. Archetypes allowed. This isn't a CRB challenge; it's an "any Paizo product" challenge.
As for healing, I was liking the samsaran spell sage, but yours is a good idea as well.
I'm also a big fan of the spellslinger, even though you get reduced access to schools. With a musket you can get some high damage output at low levels.
The main reason it won't? Because at level 1, it would already be gone after it's single round of attacks.right so why wouldn't it coup de grace a helpless enemy? animals tend to go for the throat of helpless enemies...is there a reason the animal wouldn't naturally try to coup de grace a helpless enemy.To survive level 1 you'd need a sleep focused wiz, a CS focused wiz, a summoning focused one (who can command his summons to CdG),That's going to be difficult especially since it's been erratted that celestial/infernal/whatever templated animals do not have the respective celestial/infernal/whatever languages, and I don't think you can summon anything with Summon Monster 1 that has a language.Read the text of the summon spell. If you don't have a means to communicate with your summon creature, all it will do is attack your enemies using the methods it knows, and the habit's typical to it's race.
Also note that at level 1, you only have them for the single round AFTER you've cast the spell.
you summon it directly next to the helpless enemy...
Out of curiosity - why waste a spell to CDG an enemy when you could just do it yourself what that handy scythe or pick of yours?
I suppose if you're in a situation where you can't get to that enemy in time, but that's kind of rare for level 1 scenarios.
Edit: with four wizards, you could also do this in tandem. Wizard 1 casts sleep, while wizard 2 casts summon monster. By the time summon monster casting is complete, wizard 2 will know which enemies fell asleep so he can summon his little critter right next to it for a CDG. Definitely makes the summon more valuable than a single attack that may do just a tiny bit of damage (or miss altogether!).
Out of curiosity - why waste a spell to CDG an enemy when you could just do it yourself what that handy scythe or pick of yours?
I suppose if you're in a situation where you can't get to that enemy in time, but that's kind of rare for level 1 scenarios.
Edit: with four wizards, you could also do this in tandem. Wizard 1 casts sleep, while wizard 2 casts summon monster. By the time summon monster casting is complete, wizard 2 will know which enemies fell asleep so he can summon his little critter right next to it for a CDG. Definitely makes the summon more valuable than a single attack that may do just a tiny bit of damage (or miss altogether!).
i did say in the other thread (or maybe i thought about saying it), but all the wizards should have scythes, but really it's a ranged coup de grace
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Sure... what's a minus 4 to hit for a slow BAB class?i did say in the other thread (or maybe i thought about saying it), but all the wizards should have scythes, but really it's a ranged coup de graceOut of curiosity - why waste a spell to CDG an enemy when you could just do it yourself what that handy scythe or pick of yours?
I suppose if you're in a situation where you can't get to that enemy in time, but that's kind of rare for level 1 scenarios.
Edit: with four wizards, you could also do this in tandem. Wizard 1 casts sleep, while wizard 2 casts summon monster. By the time summon monster casting is complete, wizard 2 will know which enemies fell asleep so he can summon his little critter right next to it for a CDG. Definitely makes the summon more valuable than a single attack that may do just a tiny bit of damage (or miss altogether!).
>implying CdG doesnt autocrit
>>implying they cant be prof with it with a Trait.