You're never going to attack with it???Sure... what's a minus 4 to hit for a slow BAB class?
pretty much this, it's all style and coup de graces...
Sure... what's a minus 4 to hit for a slow BAB class?i did say in the other thread (or maybe i thought about saying it), but all the wizards should have scythes, but really it's a ranged coup de graceOut of curiosity - why waste a spell to CDG an enemy when you could just do it yourself what that handy scythe or pick of yours?
I suppose if you're in a situation where you can't get to that enemy in time, but that's kind of rare for level 1 scenarios.
Edit: with four wizards, you could also do this in tandem. Wizard 1 casts sleep, while wizard 2 casts summon monster. By the time summon monster casting is complete, wizard 2 will know which enemies fell asleep so he can summon his little critter right next to it for a CDG. Definitely makes the summon more valuable than a single attack that may do just a tiny bit of damage (or miss altogether!).
>implying CdG doesnt autocrit
>>implying they cant be prof with it with a Trait.It auto-crits IF it hits. There are certain bonuses to AC [armor, natural armor, deflection, shield-bonus-from-the-shield-spell-or-an-animated-shield, etc] which do keep functioning on a helpless target.
The +4 from attacking a prone target does cancel out the non-proficiency penalty though.
kyrt how's that wizard thing going with wrath?
Sure... what's a minus 4 to hit for a slow BAB class?i did say in the other thread (or maybe i thought about saying it), but all the wizards should have scythes, but really it's a ranged coup de graceOut of curiosity - why waste a spell to CDG an enemy when you could just do it yourself what that handy scythe or pick of yours?
I suppose if you're in a situation where you can't get to that enemy in time, but that's kind of rare for level 1 scenarios.
Edit: with four wizards, you could also do this in tandem. Wizard 1 casts sleep, while wizard 2 casts summon monster. By the time summon monster casting is complete, wizard 2 will know which enemies fell asleep so he can summon his little critter right next to it for a CDG. Definitely makes the summon more valuable than a single attack that may do just a tiny bit of damage (or miss altogether!).
When a Coup De Grace is an automatic hit? Nothing.
Or someone looking for as much mechanical advantage as they can. I'm sure that no one would be interested in scythe use if it didn't involve a x4 crit factor.pretty much this, it's all style and coup de graces...You're never going to attack with it???Sure... what's a minus 4 to hit for a slow BAB class?
well i mean my cleric of urgothoa has a scythe... never uses it though.
kyrt how's that wizard thing going with wrath?Sure... what's a minus 4 to hit for a slow BAB class?i did say in the other thread (or maybe i thought about saying it), but all the wizards should have scythes, but really it's a ranged coup de graceOut of curiosity - why waste a spell to CDG an enemy when you could just do it yourself what that handy scythe or pick of yours?
I suppose if you're in a situation where you can't get to that enemy in time, but that's kind of rare for level 1 scenarios.
Edit: with four wizards, you could also do this in tandem. Wizard 1 casts sleep, while wizard 2 casts summon monster. By the time summon monster casting is complete, wizard 2 will know which enemies fell asleep so he can summon his little critter right next to it for a CDG. Definitely makes the summon more valuable than a single attack that may do just a tiny bit of damage (or miss altogether!).
>implying CdG doesnt autocrit
>>implying they cant be prof with it with a Trait.It auto-crits IF it hits. There are certain bonuses to AC [armor, natural armor, deflection, shield-bonus-from-the-shield-spell-or-an-animated-shield, etc] which do keep functioning on a helpless target.
The +4 from attacking a prone target does cancel out the non-proficiency penalty though.
I've got almost completed 2 profiles. I'd have more but this site did some weird crap today [first it said I didn't actually have an account- I tried 5 times carefully punching in my information correctly- then it stopped loading completely. I knew for sure that its failure to load was a site error, but I suspected I may have been banned and halted progress until I later successfully logged in.]
By tomorrow evening everything should be ready for me to initiate that thread.
man this started making me look at pbp forum, it makes me want to play, but at the same time so many people clamoring about in recruitment threads...
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For thematic looks, I prefer the pick over the scythe. Plus, it's easier to carry, effective as a tool or a weapon (unless you're harvesting wheat), and you can wield it while casting. Doesn't matter one way or another for coup de grace, since it automatically hits. That slow BAB (somewhat irrelevant at 1st level, where the wizards are most vulnerable) and non-proficient penalty doesn't really matter against a sleeping opponent.
For thematic looks, I prefer the pick over the scythe. Plus, it's easier to carry, effective as a tool or a weapon (unless you're harvesting wheat), and you can wield it while casting. Doesn't matter one way or another for coup de grace, since it automatically hits. That slow BAB (somewhat irrelevant at 1st level, where the wizards are most vulnerable) and non-proficient penalty doesn't really matter against a sleeping opponent.
it's official the 4 wizards need to be a farmer family.
What IS the fixation on CDG? If a character is below zero, He's going to STAY that way unlles he either bleeds out and dies, or someone physically heals him up. In low level combats, this is never an issue. At low level CDGing soneone with a dagger has never been an issue.
At higher levels, you have much more major things on your plate.
Color Spray and Sleep can make someone helpless for a very brief duration (the former wearing off on its own, the latter can be removed by any enemy as a standard action). A wizard with 7 strength could easily fail at CdG with a dagger - maybe 2 damage, DC 12 Fortitude to negate - and that would wake a sleeping foe. A Scythe would make it DC 22 or so, if the damage wasn't enough to finish them off on its own.
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since this thread started in part because Kyrt and I are trying an experiment of sorts, let me chip in on the side of GM.
Some things on spell selection for Sorcerers from earlier. Thematically sorcs get their powers from inheritance and natural power. It actually makes no sense that they would all get together and make sure they selected different spells.
When my players level up, they do it at home separately from each other. Sometimes we do overlap. Oh well, we just move on.
Wizards of course is a different kettle of fish. These guys have to learn their spells so I can literally see four of these guys sitting around a table and talking about which ones to choose to maximise their learning.
Skills not so much. These are skills that they picked up separately from each other. You'd need a very good back story to convince me why all the wizards were specialists in exactly the right combination of skills. (all family like suggested above works though, or from the same school in different classes for example).
None of that actually matters for the challenge though. Just food for thought in terms or how a campaign works in reality.
Also, anything that takes a full round to cast makes you an automatic target for almost any intelligent race that has seen magic cast in the past. Remember that for summons and sleep. Be prepared to cop attacks when doing that if you can't prevent them getting you.
Colour spray is awesome too. Until an enemy saves. Then you just get hit. Keep those in mind when creating these things.
Charming someone is effectively taking their will away in some instances. That will work to solve situations at times, but everyone who is charmed comes out of it knowing they were charmed. That will land you in trouble with the law. Especially in Lawful places. Some folks may come out of it understanding exactly why you did it, some will never trust you again and some will come out hating you forever.
This experiment is being done to show how it works in a reactive environment with an experienced DM. I'll be running things exactly how I run it with my groups in face to face games.
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BandW2, why don't you create a team and run them parallel to Kyrk's in the thread? Keep them to the discussion thread and explain what your group would do there. I'll link the thread i created for this here soon.
Edit: Here's the link
Issue with scythe is the weight. Light load for a str 7 wizard is 23 lbs, a scythe weighs 10 lbs. A large or standard tri-bladed katar (1d4/1d6 for 2/4 lbs) are also options. They also both allow the caster to threaten while casting. A spiked gauntlet might also be useful; while the damage is low, it doesn't have to be dropped to cast spells with material components.
Granted, the lower damage can really make a difference when it comes to a low-strength wizard making a high-multiplier critical hit; the average damage from a gauntlet will be 2.5, for a katar it will be 5, for a large katar it will be 8 and for a scythe it will be 12.25.
EDIT: But, if you don't care at all about the attack penalties or looking silly as heck, you really ought to aim for a huge Aklys rather than a scythe. With 3d6 damage, it doesn't matter that it just crits at x2; the average CdG damage will be 17, and it still weighs notably less than a scythe (8lbs rather than 10)
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since Summon Monster I is not worth it with a duration of 1/round.
Because at level 1, [the summoned creature] would already be gone after it's single round of attacks.
Actually they'll stick around for at least 4 rounds.
Qadiran Human Wizard (Conjurer) 1
Summoner's Charm (Su): Increase the duration of of conjuration (summon) spells by an amount equal to 1/2 your wizard level (minimum 1).
Level 1 Feat) Spell Focus (conjuration)
Human Feat) Spell Specialization (summon monster 1): +2 caster level
Traits:
Campaign Trait) Outlander (Rise of the Runelords): +1 caster level for 3 spells (Summon Monster 1, Summon Monster 5, Summon Monster 7)
Regional Trait) Genie-Caller: Once per day increase caster level by +2 for conjuration (summoning) spells.
For a Rise of the Runelords campaign your summoned creatures at level 1 will stick around for 5 rounds and once a day they will stick around for 7 rounds. For any other campaign your summoned creatures will stick around for 4 rounds and once a day they will stick around for 6 rounds.
since this thread started in part because Kyrt and I are trying an experiment of sorts.
It actually came up because my friend and I are running this experiment at home, and it came up because Anzyr brought up the idea of four casters and I wanted to make it even more restricting by having it just be four wizards. From the idea that my friend and I came up with, I posted the idea in the other thread, and then Kyrt volunteered to play on the forums and you offered to GM him.
The only part you played in this before you offered to GM was denouncing the survivability of casters at low level without a martial present.
Let me chip in of the side of GM.
You're not the only GM here. I'm a GM as well. So is LazarX, CWheezy, and many others here. We all have different play styles and many of us are experienced GMs.
Some things on spell selection for Sorcerers from earlier. Thematically sorcs get their powers from inheritance and natural power. It actually makes no sense that they would all get together and make sure they selected different spells.
Since they inherent their natural powers. It makes no sense that they'd select spells at all! Why do you even let your sorcerer players do this? What are you, some kind of meta-gaming cheater?
Bad jokes aside, there could be several reasons why sorcerers would have synchronized spells, such as a higher power guiding them or having their spells come from their own force of personality and saying that's how they choose their spells (this way the characters actually choose their spells and can synchronize with other sorcs). It most certainly could work.
When my players level up, they do it at home separately from each other. Sometimes we do overlap. Oh well, we just move on.
Good for you! Sometimes, my players do that to! Sometimes they plan together.
Wizards of course is a different kettle of fish. These guys have to learn their spells so I can literally see four of these guys sitting around a table and talking about which ones to choose to maximise their learning.
Skills not so much. These are skills that they picked up separately from each other. You'd need a very good back story to convince me why all the wizards were specialists in exactly the right combination of skills. (all family like suggested above works though, or from the same school in different classes for example).
Back when I was in the army, we used to ensure that we had various skill sets present, so different people would be the experts in different areas. Of course, we also trained in the same area a lot - but we also weren't constrained to a gaming rule set and we're capable of learning a lot more skills that this game allows. The point, though, is that it's absolutely possible for a team to get together and train in different areas to ensure a large skillet is present.
We also do this at my work; while we all are capable of the same tasks, each person is assigned as an area expert for different tasks. I'm our resident Mass Spec expert, even though everyone on my team can use a mass spec to varying degrees.
None of that actually matters for the challenge though. Just food for thought in terms or how a campaign works in reality.
Different people play different ways, so please try not to assume that the way you play is "the way it works in reality" or is the one true way to play. It's very condescending.
Also, anything that takes a full round to cast makes you an automatic target for almost any intelligent race that has seen magic cast in the past. Remember that for summons and sleep. Be prepared to cop attacks when doing that if you can't prevent them getting you.
This is situational; the players in my games do their best to cast their summoning spells while away from line-of-sight of an enemy or at least behind some protection of some sort. It makes it so they can't bring their summon directly next to the enemy, but it's a sacrifice they're willing to make. Player tactics work just as well as GM tactics, you know.
Colour spray is awesome too. Until an enemy saves. Then you just get hit. Keep those in mind when creating these things.
Yes, everyone is aware of this. Everyone here knows what saving throws are and how they work. Thanks, though.
Charming someone is effectively taking their will away in some instances. That will work to solve situations at times, but everyone who is charmed comes out of it knowing they were charmed.
Rules citation, please. I'd love to see this rule since I've never been able to find it. It's great that you houserule it like that, but I prefer my games to make sense.*
That will land you in trouble with the law. Especially in Lawful places. Some folks may come out of it understanding exactly why you did it, some will never trust you again and some will come out hating you forever.
Only if they find out.
This experiment is being done to show how it works in a reactive environment with an experienced GM.
Please remember that a lot of us are experienced GMs. I've been GMing games for nearly 20 years now, and I'm not even the most experienced GM in this thread!
It would be great if you could post your results of your experiment when you're done. I'm planning on doing the same thing, but please try to remember that your way of gaming isn't the only way, and please try to post with that in mind. It will make your posts seem much less condescending.
*See how condescending that sounded? The statement assumes that not only do you not know what you're doing, but that my way is the only way to play and you're doing-it-wrong if you're not doing it my way. It's a bad way to communicate and I only put it in there to demonstrate this point.
Charming someone is effectively taking their will away in some instances. That will work to solve situations at times, but everyone who is charmed comes out of it knowing they were charmed.Rules citation, please. I'd love to see this rule since I've never been able to find it. It's great that you houserule it like that, but I prefer my games to make sense.*
That will land you in trouble with the law. Especially in Lawful places. Some folks may come out of it understanding exactly why you did it, some will never trust you again and some will come out hating you forever.Only if they find out.
Wrath's points are more or less valid.
Charm person is a close range(40ft at level 6) targeted spell with verbal and somatic components. The first problem is that even attempting to cast this gives the target and everyone else near by an opportunity to a)notice that a spell is being cast and b)make a spellcraft check to figure out what the charmer is casting. By RAW, unless the caster is stealthing it is a DC0 perception check to notice them standing there while they cast the spell (and thus see them waving their hands around for the somatic component). It is also a DC0 check to hear the loud voice they must speak in to fulfill the verbal components. Even if they still and silence it, by RAW everyone still gets to make the spellcraft check. Charm person also has no mention of altering the subject's memeory, so the target will remember the casting of the spell if they notice it. These are not insurmountable problems, but it makes charm person a situational tool. This isn't even getting into things like the DC25 sense motive check to notice the target is under an enchantment effect, or the fact that the target has an aura around them that can be picked up by a cantrip.
I don't agree that everyone will know that they have been charmed. I could see a caster covertly using charm person to persuade a guard to let them into a party or something without an invitation, and when the spell wears off several hours later the guard probably isn't going to realize that one of the hundreds of people he saw put him under a spell without his knowledge (if the guard actually sees the caster perform the spell components it's a whole different story). However, after the spell wears off the target is fully aware of their behavior and the behavior of the caster(since they normally are aware of their behavior and the spell doesn't say it changes that). If someone spills secrets to an oddly inquisitive random stranger that they just met on the street but feel really friendly towards for no apparent reason, then it is a fair bet that several hours later that someone is going to wonder what the hell they were doing opening their mouth like that, and in a world with magic they would almost certainly figure that they were under some sort of charm or compulsion. A large chunk of uses of charm person that involve extended contact with the target are going to run into the same problem. You can't solely lean on it as your way of solving social situations.
Charming someone is effectively taking their will away in some instances. That will work to solve situations at times, but everyone who is charmed comes out of it knowing they were charmed.Rules citation, please. I'd love to see this rule since I've never been able to find it. It's great that you houserule it like that, but I prefer my games to make sense.*
That will land you in trouble with the law. Especially in Lawful places. Some folks may come out of it understanding exactly why you did it, some will never trust you again and some will come out hating you forever.Only if they find out.Wrath's points are more or less valid.
Charm person is a close range(40ft at level 6) targeted spell with verbal and somatic components. The first problem is that even attempting to cast this gives the target and everyone else near by an opportunity to a)notice that a spell is being cast and b)make a spellcraft check to figure out what the charmer is casting. By RAW, unless the caster is stealthing it is a DC0 perception check to notice them standing there while they cast the spell (and thus see them waving their hands around for the somatic component). It is also a DC0 check to hear the loud voice they must speak in to fulfill the verbal components. Even if they still and silence it, by RAW everyone still gets to make the spellcraft check. Charm person also has no mention of altering the subject's memeory, so the target will remember the casting of the spell if they notice it. These are not insurmountable problems, but it makes charm person a situational tool. This isn't even getting into things like the DC25 sense motive check to notice the target is under an enchantment effect, or the fact that the target has an aura around them that can be picked up by a cantrip.
Don't forget that Spellcraft is a trained only skill, so only those with ranks in it can even make a check.
I'm fine with the limitations, what I'm not fine with is assuming a houserule is standard across all tables - like a charmed person automatically knowing they charmed. None of this is in the rules. It's a fine houserule, but please don't assume that your own personal adjustments are standard for everyone.
A bit extra: the DC 0 is situational and assuming that there isn't any other distractions or noise going on. When we're dealing with something like Charm Person, there really are a ton of situational modifiers that must be taken into account before giving blanket statements. For example, when using a subtle spell like Charms, most people wouldn't be trying to use it out in the open with no one else around but the target - well, maybe those wizards with sub-10 Wis scores. :)
Take a CRB conjuration wizard that focuses on summoning.
Copy it 3 more times.
Rofl AP.
If the DM shuts down the regular exploits then it becomes a lot hard. Many wizard exploits are normally banned to keep other classes relevant.
First off, spellcasting is obvious unless you've got a way to mask it. (So silent + still stops the people with no ranks from realizing you just cast a spell. Otherwise, your casting is obvious but not immediately identifiable if it can be observed.)
As for "why would they realize something's wrong" it's going to be more like
*Charm Spell ends, subject immediately ceases to be Friendly and reverts to original attitude because the spell is over*
"Wait, that guy wasn't my friend at all, WTF have I been doing for the past hour?"
And I'd expect the subject to have pretty good odds of realizing what was wrong if they have Spellcraft or Knowledge(Arcana) - or if they describe it to someone who does.
Nonmagical abusive relationships tend to form and gel over long periods of time.
A charm spell lasts for a lunch break or an afternoon, and whatever good will it was generating immediately evaporates when it ends.
Your best bet to not have the victim of a charm not be pissed at you (if you care) is to still be really nice to the person while they're charmed. Or keep your interaction to a bare minimum and get out of there. =P
As Snowblind pointed out, Charm doesn't effect memory at all, and the victim should pretty easily realize that something's been really, really wrong for the past X hours unless your GM is super generous.
It doesn't provide a thing for being able to make someone helpful and have it stick after the spell wears off. That's beyond the scope of the spell.
Hell, if you charm someone who's Helpful, you actually downgrade them to Friendly while Charm was in effect, because Charm overrides their normal thoughts.
(Remember, there's a DC 25 sense motive check that lets complete strangers go "hey, something's wrong with that person!" Charm doesn't screw people up as badly as dominate, but it still screws them up while it's active.)
Though on the flip-side, one of the benefits of charm is that your victim could successfully and fully recognize that he or she is under a charm spell, and would simply not care. Because the victim is charmed.
First off, spellcasting is obvious unless you've got a way to mask it. (So silent + still stops the people with no ranks from realizing you just cast a spell. Otherwise, your casting is obvious but not immediately identifiable if it can be observed.)
As for "why would they realize something's wrong" it's going to be more like
*Charm Spell ends, subject immediately ceases to be Friendly and reverts to original attitude because the spell is over*
"Wait, that guy wasn't my friend at all, WTF have I been doing for the past hour?"
And I'd expect the subject to have pretty good odds of realizing what was wrong if they have Spellcraft or Knowledge(Arcana) - or if they describe it to someone who does.
Nonmagical abusive relationships tend to form and gel over long periods of time.
A charm spell lasts for a lunch break or an afternoon, and whatever good will it was generating immediately evaporates when it ends.
Your best bet to not have the victim of a charm not be pissed at you (if you care) is to still be really nice to the person while they're charmed. Or keep your interaction to a bare minimum and get out of there. =P
As Snowblind pointed out, Charm doesn't effect memory at all, and the victim should pretty easily realize that something's been really, really wrong for the past X hours unless your GM is super generous.
This assumes, again, that the caster is out in the open and obvious. It also assumes that the person being charmed was not indifferent or better when charmed
With those assumptions, I agree. IF the target saw you cast the spell and/or IF the target was hostile towards you, then it would be perfectly reasonable for them to guess that a spell has altered their disposition, provided they have the mental faculties to figure that out.
However, IF you cast the spell in a loud overcrowded bar, I'd highly doubt that people would be paying attention to you or even hear you well enough to notice the casting.
This is why I said that charm spells have a ton of situational modifiers that need to be taken into account. Much more so than many other spells, like damage spells. Blanket statements - such as all targets of charm spells automatically know they've been charmed - ignore situational modifiers. Heck, I've seen some builds that have straight 7's in int, wis, and cha. I'd highly doubt that character would be able to tell when they've been charmed magically unless the person charming them was an active enemy the moment it was cast and remained an active enemy when the spell ended.
Let's also not forget that if you succeed on your saving throw vs a charm spell, you do know that a charm spell was attempted on you.
Take a CRB conjuration wizard that focuses on summoning.
Copy it 3 more times.
Rofl AP.
If the DM shuts down the regular exploits then it becomes a lot hard. Many wizard exploits are normally banned to keep other classes relevant.
What wizard exploits exist between levels 1-4? One of the major assumptions is that once the wizard party survives the first Book, then things get a lot easier form there.
This only matters for level 1 right? Level 2 on they can just be like "Wow we need a stealthy guy, why don't you practice that joe"
Skills not so much. These are skills that they picked up separately from each other. You'd need a very good back story to convince me why all the wizards were specialists in exactly the right combination of skills. (all family like suggested above works though, or from the same school in different classes for example).
Or just cast Vanish.
@ Bookrat - you know how in all the art the various spellcasters having like glowy runes and auras when they're casting spells?
That's deliberate. Magic's that conspicuous if you don't have the metamagic feats to hide it.
If you don't have something to hide it (like the metamagic feats or being invisible), magic's about as subtle as pulling a shotgun out.
Edit: You might able to hide that you just pulled a shotgun out, but that takes skill and effort.
So for your bar example, everyone right next to the dope that slung an unannounced spell in the middle of the bar would notice it. I'd expect an immediate "what the hell did you just do, man?"
As for actually scouting, do remember that vanish only lasts a few rounds. Vanish is for emergency escape after you already botched the stealth roll =P
Vanish is for emergency escape after you already botched the stealth roll =P
Which, coincidentally, is another thing mundanes really wish they had. :)
Or just cast Vanish.This only matters for level 1 right? Level 2 on they can just be like "Wow we need a stealthy guy, why don't you practice that joe"
Skills not so much. These are skills that they picked up separately from each other. You'd need a very good back story to convince me why all the wizards were specialists in exactly the right combination of skills. (all family like suggested above works though, or from the same school in different classes for example).
Why not both?
@ Bookrat - you know how in all the art the various spellcasters having like glowy runes and auras when they're casting spells?
That's deliberate. Magic's that conspicuous if you don't have the metamagic feats to hide it.
If you don't have something to hide it (like the metamagic feats or being invisible), magic's about as subtle as pulling a shotgun out.
Edit: You might able to hide that you just pulled a shotgun out, but that takes skill and effort.
So for your bar example, everyone right next to the dope that slung an unannounced spell in the middle of the bar would notice it. I'd expect an immediate "what the hell did you just do, man?"
Now that's how I would like to see magic used. But I've never actually seen anyone play this way, even my really bad GM that I've told so many stories about on these boards. Not even in the PFS games I've been involved with.
Do we have any rules that state as such, or is it just in the artwork?
Edit: Another thought: if there was a visual cue for spell casting other than the spell components, then you'd need another metamagic feat to remove the visible effect, or yours have to tie it into an existing metamagic feat. Not doing this effectively makes using Silent and Still metamagic spells worthless for the purposes of casting a spell in secret.
As for actually scouting, do remember that vanish only lasts a few rounds. Vanish is for emergency escape after you already botched the stealth roll =P
Good point.
@ Bookrat - you know how in all the art the various spellcasters having like glowy runes and auras when they're casting spells?
That's deliberate. Magic's that conspicuous if you don't have the metamagic feats to hide it.
If you don't have something to hide it (like the metamagic feats or being invisible), magic's about as subtle as pulling a shotgun out.
Edit: You might able to hide that you just pulled a shotgun out, but that takes skill and effort.
So for your bar example, everyone right next to the dope that slung an unannounced spell in the middle of the bar would notice it. I'd expect an immediate "what the hell did you just do, man?"
Now that's how I would like to see magic used. But I've never actually seen anyone play this way, even my really bad GM that I've told so many stories about on these boards. Not even in the PFS games I've been involved with.
Do we have any rules that state as such, or is it just in the artwork?
Edit: Another thought: if there was a visual cue for spell casting other than the spell components, then you'd need another metamagic feat to remove the visible effect, or yours have to tie it into an existing metamagic feat. Not doing this effectively makes using Silent and Still metamagic spells worthless for the purposes of casting a spell in secret.
As for actually scouting, do remember that vanish only lasts a few rounds. Vanish is for emergency escape after you already botched the stealth roll =PGood point.
As far as the metamagic feats hiding casting, the devs have stated that casting isn't concealable that way by RAW. Even SLAs, which have no components, are still noticible (characters are still entitled to their spellcraft check, so the magic must be noticible somehow). IIRC Jason suggested applying a -4 on the check to notice the spell for each of Still and Silent that the caster sticks on the spell, but he was pretty explicit on that being a houserule.
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since Summon Monster I is not worth it with a duration of 1/round.Because at level 1, [the summoned creature] would already be gone after it's single round of attacks.Actually they'll stick around for at least 4 rounds.
Qadiran Human Wizard (Conjurer) 1
Summoner's Charm (Su): Increase the duration of of conjuration (summon) spells by an amount equal to 1/2 your wizard level (minimum 1).
Level 1 Feat) Spell Focus (conjuration)
Human Feat) Spell Specialization (summon monster 1): +2 caster levelTraits:
Campaign Trait) Outlander (Rise of the Runelords): +1 caster level for 3 spells (Summon Monster 1, Summon Monster 5, Summon Monster 7)
Regional Trait) Genie-Caller: Once per day increase caster level by +2 for conjuration (summoning) spells.For a Rise of the Runelords campaign your summoned creatures at level 1 will stick around for 5 rounds and once a day they will stick around for 7 rounds. For any other campaign your summoned creatures will stick around for 4 rounds and once a day they will stick around for 6 rounds.
++ Wizards built like this.
...even worse, make that Qadiran a worshipper of Urgathoa... his Summon Monster 1 is now Bloody Skeletons. 5 rounds of bloody skeleton at level 1 is bad news for the bad guys.
Also, a necromancer with a good DC on Cause Fear is pretty boss at level 1.
Semi-optimized Blaster wizard at level 1 in RotRL:
Human
Traits: Outlander (Burning Hands, Magic Missile, something else), Reactionary.
Drawback: Warded Against Nature (so animals will not willingly approach within 30 feet of you except Familiars and AC's, and now you get to take a 3rd trait...) -> Affinity of the Elements (Ymeri)
Wiz 1: Familiar (Protector, Greensting) for +4 Init and +2 AC every time familiar's Bodyguard feat kicks in, Evocation (Admixture), and if allowed the PFS swap take Sp.Foc Evoc over Scribe Scroll.
1: Sp.Special (Magic Missile), H: Varisian Tattoo (Evoc).
You've got:
* 2 magic missiles / day at CL 5 for 3d4+3 force damage at 150' auto hit, and,
* 2 Burning Hands / day at CL 3 for 3d4 Fire/Cold/Acid/Electric damage in 15' cone with save DC 17 (or DC 18 if it's Fire) and you can use an Alchemical Fire as a power component to make 1 enemy catch fire for an extra 1d6...
* 1 Mage Armor at CL 1 to buff your AC up 3 past your Haramaki
* your Ray of Frost is 1d3+1 (from alchemical power component) at 30' for when you don't want to burn real spells, and,
* you've got Open/Close and Mage Hand and probably Message, and,
* you also get Dancing Lights 3/day from your Tattoo.
Other stuff: your AC is 10+2(Dex) +1(haramaki) OR +4(if mage armor) +2(familiar on most melee attacks) for a respectable 18 buffed, 15 not, and your Initiative is at +8 or better. You have 8 hit points and whatever else you can scrounge up for defense. BUT, if nobody is able to summon stuff as meat shields, change Familiar to toad or whatever for extra 3 HP, and can even drop the Affinity of the Elements trait for the one that gives another +1 HP and some other bonus to get you up to 12 HP total --that's doing alright for level 1.
Once you're at 2nd level spells, a Summon Swarm (Bat Swarm) will kill almost everything... most enemies at low level cannot stop the bleed. Whoever's casting this is either using Vanish/Invisibility to protect themselves while 1 round casting, or, they are Acadamae Graduates.
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That is fantastic, Gohaken.
BandW2, why don't you create a team and run them parallel to Kyrk's in the thread? Keep them to the discussion thread and explain what your group would do there. I'll link the thread i created for this here soon.
Edit: Here's the link
i'm tempted to accept this and make a family of wizards.
@ Bookrat - I run magic that way in my own game, and while I'm playing. My casters are pretty used to announcing "hey, I'm about to cast ____, if you don't mind."
Heh. No, "spellcasting is blatantly obvious" is not part of the RAW.
But on the other hand, there is no check required to notice that a spell is being cast.
The check is only for accurately identifying the spell as it is being cast - someone's that readied for counterspelling can figure out what you're doing before you've even finish the spell and react accordingly.
Also, perception DC modifiers apply to IDing spells.
So on one hand, it's significantly harder to have your spells ID a spell if you're invisible or on the other side of a wall.
On the other hand, magic's so conspicuous that a pro could accurately identify what spell you're casting while you're 200+ feet away.
@ Snowblind - and good catch with SLAs. SLAs are conspicuous enough to provoke AoOs, despite being, silent, still, and activated by force of will alone.
@ Snowblind - and good catch with SLAs. SLAs are conspicuous enough to provoke AoOs, despite being, silent, still, and activated by force of will alone.
I envision this more as the "caster" has to stop to concentrate for a second - long enough to drop his defenses for an AoO - rather than it being conspicuous enough to know what's going on.
Saw the title of the thread and got my hopes up for a Wizard school style adventure.
I've been wanting to run and/or play in one of those for years.
@ Snowblind - and good catch with SLAs. SLAs are conspicuous enough to provoke AoOs, despite being, silent, still, and activated by force of will alone.
Eh, the provoking thing can be explained by the caster being distracted while activating their SLA.
What is much more damning is that other characters still get their Spellcraft checks despite there being no components, because spell-like abilities function just like spells except for a defined set of exceptions which don't make any mention of spellcraft (meaning observing character must be able to perceive the act of activating an SLA somehow).
By the way, that post I was thinking of.
With a 15pt buy whats a standard wizard stat array look like?
Just looking at a couple of the Guides...
According to Treantmonk:
15-point buy: Str 7 (-4), Dex 16 (10), Con 12 (2), Int 17 (13), Wis 7 (-4), Cha 8 (-2)
According to Professor Q:
15 point buy: 7 STR, 12 DEX, 12 CON, 18 INT, 10 WIS, 8 CHA
yeah on AOO it;s not like the enemy suddenly is aware they're getting an AoO, an AoO is a lowering of defenses that allows the enemies to have a chance at doing additional damage. you drop your guard by casting this makes it easier for you to hit, thus they roll to see if you do get hit beyond what they would have rolled on their own turn.
basically during those 6 seconds you don't swing only once during your turn, you're actively fighting one another.
edit: also on noticing magic, magic doesn't make you any more visable when using a stealth check, so I think it's about as obvious as someone drawing a weapon or drinking a potion or some such.
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That is fantastic, Gohaken.
Thanks man!! :-)
My pleasure. I guess now that we have
#1) the Qadiran Summoner statted out for meat shields, courtesy of Mr. John Lynch 106 (and those meat shields come w/ fast healing if that wizard worships Urgathoa), and,
#2) the Blaster wizard to be the "Mini Mailman" courtesy of yours truly, well,
...we still need someone to handle real social challenges, someone who can battlefield control/debuff real well, and someone from among these four brave scholarly souls who can out of combat heal.
Any takers on throwing out an actual Level 1 build?
I'm rummaging around with ideas for an "Empty Heart full Heart" charm specialized Enchanter who worships Naderi, and will sometime soon dip cross blooded Sorc 1 (Infernal & Fey) to boost his Enchant DC's by 2. Or maybe Crossblooded (Serpentine & Impossible) to be able to Enchant constructs and beasts/animals.
Of course our Blaster hero posted above is dipping Crossblooded Sorc (Orc/Draconic) at around level 6 in his career... right when he gets fireball.
C'mon ya'all, any more munchkin builds for our Wizard War Four?
Remember, one of the rules for this challenge was "No multiclassing"
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Remember, one of the rules for this challenge was "No multiclassing"
My heart aches with sadness at this rule.... *sigh*
Ah well, Blaster still does ok without the dip, but will have to become a Controlling Blaster via Rime Spell and Dazing spell starting at 5th level, instead of a full force Blaster, in this case. Probably better to do that anyway, in terms of opti-fu, but hey I just think pure evokers like seeing things go boom lol.
Anywho, my previous question still stands:
1. We have a 1st level Conjuration summoner w/ 5 to 7 rounds of Bloody Skeletons and/or Celestial Eagles 3 or 4 times / day (I'm assuming our Qadiran keeps a Mage Armor or Shield spell handy in his last slot??)
2. We have a 1st level Blaster w/ average 11 Force dmg auto-hit from 150', twice / day, and swarm-killing for average 8 Fire/Cold/Electric/Acid dmg in 15' cone, +another 3 Fire vs 1 opponent in that cone, twice / day, plus his defense spell.
3. & 4. ....?? What else we got?