I was looking at a samsaran spell sage or a life necromancer to get access to healing.
I like the life necromancer because he can double as a Buffing wizard and heal his allies at the same time.
There's also the classic gnome illusionist; as an all wizard party, illusions will help play a great role for sneakiness and subterfuge instead of out right head-to-head combat that's typical for a normal party.
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I was looking at a samsaran spell sage or a life necromancer to get access to healing.
Hmmm... well I think Samsaran Spell Sage for #3 to cover the healing / divine stuff, and what about making a Peri Aasimar Necromancer (Undead) for #4?
The Aasimar should ditch their SLA for either Immortal Spark to start 1 age category up for free +1 to Int and Cha, or just swap it for +2 Int off the table... to afford some extra attribute points to make up for the 15 point buy.
They could then serve as party face, ironically, because they are keeping a high Charisma for social skills and also for Power Over Undeath. And with their Bolster ability at level 1, they can buff the Qadiran Conjuration summoner's Bloody Skeletons lol...
This guy (girl?) would focus on Animate Dead as a supplemental meat shield plan, and Necromancy debuffs as well. He could later on even sport the Sacred Conduit trait or worship an Archdevil to take Flames of Hell trait via Additional Traits, to gain +1 DC on his channel, either way, and take Imp Channel feat... you know, so he can control more than his fair share of animated stuff.
Lets see:
Aasimar (Perikin) with Immortal Spark & Deathless Spirit.
Traits: Outlander (Cause Fear, Animate Dead, Ray of Exhaustion or maybe Waves of Exhaustion if you're willing to wait), Underlying Principles (if you worship Nethys, to nab UMD in class since you have an OK Charisma)
Drawback: Warded Against Nature (hey why not?) -> Extremely Fashionable to grab bonuses to 3 social skills and make 1 of them a class skill (like Diplomacy).
Wizard: Necromancy (Undeath) 1: Familiar (either one who is good at making touch attacks, or, something else useful like maybe a Valet if you'll be crafting later), Power over Undead, Bolster. Again take the PFS swap if possible for Sp. Focus (Necromancy).
1: Gr.Sp.Focus (Necromancy)
You have at 1st level:
2/day Cause Fear at DC 18, maybe 19 or even 20 if you took that add'l +2 Int from Aasimar table and dumped dangerously low on physical stats.
1/day Chill Touch if you took familiar who can make touch attacks, otherwise, maybe 1/day Ray of Enfeeblement (at DC 17, 18 or 19 this still has some value at level 1).
1/day Interrogation (for when your social skills fall short)
1/day Mage Armor / Shield or whatever
Some useful cantrips.
Similar AC, Initiative and HP / other stats to the evoker presented above.
If your DM rules that Thassalonian Specialists still get their School Powers, you should seriously consider that for Necromancy. Not too hard to find 1 spell at every level that's great to cast twice, from Necromancy.
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There is no question they still get school powers...
Thesselonian specialist only affects how go about extra spell slots and restrictions.
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Hey book rat, sorry for stepping all over your thread.
However, when I saw my name mentioned in here in regards to the thing Kyrt and I are doing I figured I had the right to respond.
Now to some of your points.
Check the magic part of the rule book for verbal components. Needs a firm voice.
Somatic means precise and definite gesture.
Perception gives a DC 0 to notice someone who's visible, and a DC 0 to hear the details of a conversation.
So at 40 feet, a person has to pass a DC 4 perception to hear you cast or see you cast.
You can take steps to change this obviously.
Any spell that allows a save and you pass means you feel a hostile force or tingle. If you don't save, then nothing.
Charm changes an attitude but not memory. Strangers will note they are changed with a decent perception. The person themselves will become friendly for the spell but then revert completely. If they saw you casting (see above) then they're pretty much going to know what's going on.
As for your point about me assuming mine is the only way, I was not doing that at all. Please note, I am not the one making claims that an all caster group can win, nor am I one of the posters in threads clambering for changes to be made to the game because x is broken or useless.
The reason I don't do those things is because I realise my play style is not the only one. Some others may need reminding of that fact though.
However, since you seem to be a little upset by my posting in your thread, I'll bow out of this one and just stick to what Kyrt and I have planned.
Good luck with your own challenge, it sounds like fun.
Wrath, that's fair, and I apologize for misreading your intent.
My Kingmaker group did books 1 and 2 with just an arcanist and a shaman, no summons (call + charm animal late book 2 though), so I have no doubt a party of 4 wizards could do just fine.
If I was building it, I'd do a Transmutation wizard, an Enchantment wizard, a Divination wizard, and a Conjuration wizard. Transmutation handles the melee combat at early levels and polymorphs + hands out buffs later on. Enchantment wizard focuses on high spell DCs, using Charm Person to end social encounters and turning enemies into a stronger front line. Divination does the God Wizard-ing, buffing and controlling to ensure victory. The Conjuration wizard summons and helps fill in any roles the party can't cover on a given day, be it more front-liners, ranged damage, buffs, or skills. 15-pt buy is not very friendly, but I bet it could work. The only one that really needs more has a free enhancement bonus at level 1 anyway.
I typically think of buffs as something to cast on melee combatants. Are they really all that useful to cast on other mages? What kind of buffs would you cast on another wizard?
If there isn't much, then a debuffer may be better, or forgoe this type of caster altogether and get someone who is more illusion or charm focused.
I typically think of buffs as something to cast on melee combatants. Are they really all that useful to cast on other mages? What kind of buffs would you cast on another wizard?
If there isn't much, then a debuffer may be better, or forgoe this type of caster altogether and get someone who is more illusion or charm focused.
Being able to have a Summon-focused caster and a Buffer on the same team is an incredible asset.
Summoner brings out the muscle [muscle which doesn't cost anything to heal, because it's disposable] while the buffer pumps it full of steroids.
Ooo, right. I keep forgetting about that. I blame my kids for keeping me up all night.
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Heya Book rat,
If you have a sorcerer or alchemist or even a wizard using transformation for animal shape etc. then buffs can be good.
Haste is good for everyone, fox cunning for int buff, bears endurance for more HP always handy for a wizard, prot from X alignment benefits all folks when needed. All the energy resistances etc. Effectively this guy preps defence so everyone else can focus on problem solving or killing.
Generally, if you have a good buffing caster along who knows the roles of the other party then you're all good.
Not sure what you're going to use as your damage soak in this situation. I don't know all the archetypes and builds like most of you guys do.
PS This one is actually on your topic so felt it was ok to post some help here.
An Earth Wizard, an Air Wizard, a Fire Wizard, and a Water Wizard, duh! :D
Drop earth and go wood; you get someone who can use int to attack and damage with a spear. :)
Heya Book rat,
If you have a sorcerer or alchemist or even a wizard using transformation for animal shape etc. then buffs can be good.
Haste is good for everyone, fox cunning for int buff, bears endurance for more HP always handy for a wizard, prot from X alignment benefits all folks when needed. All the energy resistances etc. Effectively this guy preps defence so everyone else can focus on problem solving or killing.
Generally, if you have a good buffing caster along who knows the roles of the other party then you're all good.
Not sure what you're going to use as your damage soak in this situation. I don't know all the archetypes and builds like most of you guys do.
PS This one is actually on your topic so felt it was ok to post some help here.
First, I'd like to direct you to this post.
As for the damage soak; that role is going to be played by the summoned critters or avoided altogether by bypassing enemies rather than face them directly. I envision a wizard party to be much more stealthy than your standard group, using their intellect, skills, and maybe spells (limited supply, so shouldn't always use) to find ways to solve an encounter other than direct damage and killing.
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Nice,
I can totally see them as a special forces style team. Get in and get out fast, target specific hit and run.
This could work in the right campaign I guess. Kingmaker for example is lenient on casters early on since its light on combat on a daily basis. Later on, limited casting becomes less of an issue for casters so the danger zone becomes much smaller.
Other AP's would take lots of work on the DM's part though (in my opinion). I guess that's the point of your challenge.
Are you playing a path or custom game?
I typically think of buffs as something to cast on melee combatants. Are they really all that useful to cast on other mages? What kind of buffs would you cast on another wizard?
If there isn't much, then a debuffer may be better, or forgoe this type of caster altogether and get someone who is more illusion or charm focused.
If you have a melee mage like I suggested, they'll want to attack on their turn, not cast a spell that one of the other 3 could cast instead. Enlarge Person, Moment of Greatness, and Magic Weapon are all good 1 minute per level buffs that can be cast to assist your beatstick's chances of hitting. Debuffing is good, but the best debuffs are single-target only, and at low-levels you typically deal with either strong single monsters or groups of wimps. In either case you want that melee wizard to hit, and hit hard.
Nice,
I can totally see them as a special forces style team. Get in and get out fast, target specific hit and run.
This could work in the right campaign I guess. Kingmaker for example is lenient on casters early on since its light on combat on a daily basis. Later on, limited casting becomes less of an issue for casters so the danger zone becomes much smaller.
Other AP's would take lots of work on the DM's part though (in my opinion). I guess that's the point of your challenge.
Are you playing a path or custom game?
Rise of the Runelords. Seeing as you're doing the same, I'll be interested in comparing the two. I've dotted your game so I can watch and even chime in if you'll accept the input.
Mine may take a bit to set up as it's difficult running a game with toddlers underfoot. :)
I really hope other people try it as well.
If you have a melee mage like I suggested, they'll want to attack on their turn, not cast a spell that one of the other 3 could cast instead. Enlarge Person, Moment of Greatness, and Magic Weapon are all good 1 minute per level buffs that can be cast to assist your beatstick's chances of hitting. Debuffing is good, but the best debuffs are single-target only, and at low-levels you typically deal with either strong single monsters or groups of wimps. In either case you want that melee wizard to hit, and hit hard.I typically think of buffs as something to cast on melee combatants. Are they really all that useful to cast on other mages? What kind of buffs would you cast on another wizard?
If there isn't much, then a debuffer may be better, or forgoe this type of caster altogether and get someone who is more illusion or charm focused.
I reread your previous post and I like the idea of having everyone do a little bit of buffing but none of them specializing in it.
With a 15 pt buy whats a standard wizard stat array look like?
Edit: I should have said optimal
Assuming human I would go with:
STR 7 (-4)
DEX 14 (5)
CON 14 (5)
INT 18+2 (17)
WIS 7 (-4)
CHA 7 (-4)
I'd always go for -2 will save for +1 initiative, +1 reflex and +1 AC on a wizard. The only difference between this and a 20 point buy wizard that I would prefer to use is I wouldn't dump Charisma.
we still need someone to handle real social challenges
If no-one beats me to it I'll go rummaging for my real life, actually used in Kingmaker, wizard enchanter (warning: He's not optimal. He started with Charisma 12-14 because I wanted him to be able to claim he was good looking. He also frowned upon charm spells as he considered it to be little more than rape).
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Here's a wizard to handle social challenges, he'll be relying on someone else to handle sense motive checks.
STR 7 (-4)
DEX 13 (3)
CON 14 (5)
INT 17 (13) +2 (human)
WIS 7 (-4)
CHA 12 (2)
Traits*:
World Traveler) +1 trait bonus to diplomacy and it's a class skill
Fast-Talker) +2 trait bonus to bluff and it's a class skill
* Replace either of these traits with a campaign trait that makes one of these skills a class skill. In my experience there's always one that does.
Feats:
Human) Skill Focus (Intimidate)*
Wizard 1) Scribe Scroll
Level 1) Spell Focus (Enchantment)
* At level 8 I get a free bonus feat of Skill Focus (Diplomacy) and at level 16 I get a free bonus feat of Skill Focus (Bluff)
Class Features:
Bonded Item
Forbidden Schools: Necromancy and Abjuration
School Specialisation: Enchantment (Manipulation)
* Enchanting Smile: +2 enchantment bonus to bluff, diplomacy and intimidate
* Beguiling Touch: 6 times a day I can charm creatures who have 1 HD for 1 round if they fail a DC 13.
Skills:
1) Bluff +9 (+1 skill rank, +3 class skill, +2 trait bonus, +2 enchantment bonus, +1 cha mod)
2) Diplomacy +8 (+1 skill rank, +3 class skill, +1 trait bonus, +2 enchantment bonus, +1 cha mod)
3) Intimidate +7 (+1 skill rank, +2 enchantment bonus, +3 skill focus, +1 cha mod)
4) Knowledge (Arcana) +7 (+1 skill rank, +3 class skill, +3 int mod)
5) Knowledge (Planes) +7 (+1 skill rank, +3 class skill, +3 int mod)
6) Linguistics +7 (+1 skill rank, +3 class skill, +3 int mod)
7) Spellcraft +7 (+1 skill rank, +3 class skill, +3 int mod)
Languages Known: Taldane (Common), Varisian, Giant, Draconic, Goblin
Spells
0th (At-Will): Daze, Open/Close, Mage Hand
1st - Sleep, Sleep
Bonded Amulet - Any spell known
Spells Known:
All 0th level spells except those in necromancy and illusion
Cultural Adaptation: +2 to diplomacy checks when I've adapted to the target's culture. Also +1 to DC on enchantment spells.
Memory Lapse
Sleep
Ear Piercing Scream
Mage Armor
Burning Hands
Differences between this and the real 20 point buy version: Charisma was 14 and not 12 and dexterity was 14 instead of 13. I also delayed being skilled in intimidate (instead starting with skill focus in diplomacy) so that others in the party could assist in social challenges by contributing with intimidate. He also had Noble Scion instead of World Traveller (this was for a Kingmaker campaign).
Traits*:
World Traveler) +1 trait bonus to diplomacy and it's a class skill
Fast-Talker) +2 trait bonus to bluff and it's a class skill* Replace either of these traits with a campaign trait that makes one of these skills a class skill. In my experience there's always one that does.
Surprisingly, Rise of the Runelords doesn't. Kind of.
For RofRL, you can choose a campaign trait from the Players Guide or from the APG. The player's guide doesn't have any campaign trait that gives a bonus to bluff or diplomacy, but there is a campaign trait in the APG that gives Bluff as a class skill. Unfortunatey, it only adds a +1. So Fast Talker is better.
Additionally, you may want to drop charisma even lower, up your int more, and pick up the feat "Additional Traits" to grab any two of these:
1) Bruising Intellect so you can replace Cha with Int for Intimidate.
2) Student of Philosophy to replace Cha with Int for diplomacy (persuade) and bluff (convince other a lie is true).
3) Clever Wordplay to use Int for one Cha based skill.
Surprisingly, Rise of the Runelords doesn't. Kind of.
For RofRL, you can choose a campaign trait from the Players Guide or from the APG. The player's guide doesn't have any campaign trait that gives a bonus to bluff or diplomacy, but there is a campaign trait in the APG that gives Bluff as a class skill. Unfortunatey, it only adds a +1. So Fast Talker is better.
Huh. Well there you go.
Additionally, you may want to drop charisma even lower, up your int more, and pick up the feat "Additional Traits" to grab any two of these:
1) Bruising Intellect so you can replace Cha with Int for Intimidate.
2) Student of Philosophy to replace Cha with Int for diplomacy (persuade) and bluff (convince other a lie is true).
3) Clever Wordplay to use Int for one Cha based skill.
Depends how important that feat is for you. If you could take all 3 then that would certainly be tempting. However assuming we've swapped out Fast-Talker for a campaign trait you can only take one of these traits as all of them are social traits. That's fine if you want to be good at diplomacy, good at bluffing OR good at intimidate. But you won't get the bonus to all 3 skills. It will also decrease the value received from circlet of persuasion and rod of splendor as these items will only apply to 2 skills instead of 3 skills.
A lot of folks talk about how wizards are gods. I've even heard that a fighter-wizard team could be better served by a wizard-wizard team.
I've also heard people claim that wizards are weak at low levels and have a difficult time surviving low levels, and this is often used as justification for why they're so powerful at high levels.
Regardless if anybof this is true, how would you build a four person wizard group capable of surviving and/or thriving through various adventure paths? This includes survivablity at low levels and the team should be capable of covering all the bases of group dynamics.
Let's assume a 15 point buy, and any Paizo material is allowed. No multiclassing.
Tell them they took the derogatory title for PF as "3.5: caster edition" far too seriously.
I would say:
An Alteration focused battleshaper wizard that should function as the most tanky of the four: high physical stats, Shield, Armor, Mirror Image, Alter Self or Monstrous Physique.
A Conjurer able to summon creatures and use other battlefield control spells.
A Evocation Admixture blaster, with the usual Spell Focus + Varisian Tatoo + Spell Specialization (Fireball).
A Necromancer that combines undead animation and control with buffing and utility magic.
I would say:
An Alteration focused battleshaper wizard that should function as the most tanky of the four: high physical stats, Shield, Armor, Mirror Image, Alter Self or Monstrous Physique.
A Conjurer able to summon creatures and use other battlefield control spells.
A Evocation Admixture blaster, with the usual Spell Focus + Varisian Tatoo + Spell Specialization (Fireball).
A Necromancer that combines undead animation and control with buffing and utility magic.
Get 3 of the wizards to each take one of the traits identified by bookrat and you've got the "party face" role fulfilled by 3 of the 4 players who can all contribute in social situations.
The Necromancer should have a decent charisma anyway, so that is another option.
The point of those traits was to make the wizards less MAD, which is important for low point buys games.
Get 3 of the wizards to each take one of the traits identified by bookrat and you've got the "party face" role fulfilled by 3 of the 4 players who can all contribute in social situations.
Now that's a good idea. I hadn't thought of that.
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I posted an alternate Level 1 Blaster wizard in another thread, again assuming the PFS swap (Spell Focus for Scribe Scroll) is allowed. Here's the meat of it -- adjusted for 15 PB and ROTRL -- if you want a Force Mage variant of the guy from earlier in this thread:
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CN Human Wizard (Exploiter) 1
Str 7 (pb -4)
Dex 14 (pb 5)
Con 14 (pb 5)
Int 18+2 =20 (pb 17)
Wis 7 (pb -4)
Cha 7 (pb -4)
Traits: Outlander (Magic Missile, Battering Blast, Telekinetic Sphere... or maybe Bigby's Raised Middle Finger), Wayang Spellhunter (Magic Missile)
Wiz 1: Arcane Pool, Exploit (MM Knowledge: Toppling Spell), Spells, Cantrips, (PFS) BF: Spell Focus (Evocation)
1st Lvl: Spell Specialization (Evocation), Human: Varisian Tattoo (Evocation).
Spells / Day:
* Toppling Magic Missile x3: CL 5, 3d4+3 force dmg auto hit in 150', target(s) gets a CMB check 5+5 = 1d20+10 vs. their CMD to trip... up to 3 enemies at once.
...Boost that CMB by +1 if he burns Arcane point. A +10 or +11 trip at 1st level, from a distance, is awesome.
* Mage Armor or something else x1
* Cantrips, blah blah
.
OR this guy could ditch Toppling Spell for Potent Magic, and use his 3 Arcane points to make his 3 magic missiles all hit CL 7... at 1st level... that's 4d4+4 force damage auto hit from 170'. In this case he's ditching Wayang spell hunter for another trait, like say Student of Philosophy, or maybe plain old Reactionary.
.
ALTERNATIVELY, this guy (or girl, ok) could ave gone with Snowball (and Conj) instead of Magic missile (and Evoc), ditched Toppling Spell for Reach spell, and at 1st level be doing 5d6 Snowballs at 150' range, with save DC 17 or be staggered.
OR, he could stick with short range, and add 1 to his DC via Affinity of the Elements (Water) swapped in for Wayang Spellhunter, and another +2 to his DC via Potent Magic (he would ditch Reach Spells) for a Snowball 5d6 at 35' range w/ DC 20 or Stagger.
...but then he wouldn't be a Force mage, would he?
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At 5th level, this guy takes Additional Traits for Magical Lineage (Battering Blast), and Fate's Favored.
For future Exploits, think Dimensional Slide, Potent Magic, Greater MM Knowledge, etc.
Also, he is going to worship Rovavgug. At 16th level, he will retrain a less important feat to be Deific Obedience Rovagug so he can get +4 to the Save DC of his blasts and preroll any 1's on the dice, and +8 to the DC of his Perfected Blast (still Battering Blast). If Retraining is not allowed, he will have to suck it up and take that feat way before it's useful to him... oh well.
Last but not least, he will certainly take the Arcane Discovery "Creative Destruction" anytime after getting his Battering Blast up to par. This way he (over)heals himself every time he blasts the living sh_t out of everything that moves and subsequently Bullrushes it 10 to 15 squares away and knocks it Prone.
His Force damage with Battering Blast may get up to around 800 against a single target at level 20, along with a CMB +90 or +100 Bullrush check, depending on how much he can jack his Caster Level.
.
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He will also spend his long nights dreaming about how, in an alternate universe, he could have dipped Tattoed Orc sorcerer to raise his damage up more, and save some feats, averaged about 1000-1200 Force damage/round against single targets, and otherwise made a more valiant effort to fill the shoes of his 3.5 godfather, The Mailman.
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Great stuff.
I really really want to see this in play now. Though I would totally go the Conjuration route with potent magic snowball since you'll need potent magic later on anyway.
I really really want to see this in play now. Though I would totally go the Conjuration route with potent magic snowball since you'll need potent magic later on anyway.
Great stuff.
That would give two conjuration specialists in the group - one for summoning and one for blasting.
I would arm them all with heavy crossbows. With a decent dex, four people doing 1D10 per shot should carry them to level 3, where they get level 2 spells and no longer have to worry about anything ever again. :D
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I really really want to see this in play now. Though I would totally go the Conjuration route with potent magic snowball since you'll need potent magic later on anyway.
Great stuff.
Hehe, yeah, if you go that route, you can later take Geyser as a Perfected Water based Conjuration spell to still get the +1 DC from Affinity of the Elements, and the +'s from your Sp Foc Conj type stuff..
M.Lineage'd Dazing Persistent Geyser is really, really bad news. You might even want to get Widening on a MM Rod if you have the tons of cash for that, in case you need to daze like everybody in the enemy's army at once or something.
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Have all 4 wizards buy a combat trained Bison and guard dog. Trample everything out doors for the win. In doors use the dogs. Use spells to back up the bison and dogs.
Conjurer, generalist, transmuter, and enchanter.
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Animals tend to do badly against anything scary, particularly some undead. When all your trained animals refuse to enter combat, this tactic is a little scary. What's worse is a bison herd that runs back over the top of your casters in fright.
Even animal companions won't willingly go in some places. Nature of the beast and all that. Eidolons and familiars are different. They have intellect and can make choices themselves. Animals are int 2 at best and rely on instinct, no matter what you try with them.
For example, unless you've trained an animal to not fear fire, they won't run into a burning building, or approach significant heat with anything like willingness at all. I don't believe there's a trick that lets them ignore the fear of fire inherent in animals. Might be something you have to discuss with the DM.
I've had a player once turn up to a game with an animal companion (wolf). They used fire to keep a grizzly bear at bay in an encounter. Everyone was happy. Two encounters later I ruled his wolf wouldn't approach the huge bonfire that that the Bandits were using to protect their backs. He got all upset. Seems some players expect special treatment for PC companions. It works with some DM's, not others. Best check the table expectations before turning up with a heard of animals.
All wizard party are gods, nullified by one hyphenated word, and another word: Anti-Magic Shell.
Assuming there is no magical way around this, well done you just TPK'd the party. Guess you're group gets to play some Yahtzee instead?
The problem with gotchas like anti magic zones is that they don't challenge the party, they obliterate the party. You go from cake walk all the way up to guaranteed TPK with nothing in between.
All wizard party are gods, nullified by one hyphenated word, and another word: Anti-Magic Shell.
Uh I don't know if you know this or not, but Antimagic Field turns off most of the person it's centered on best defenses and makes them super susceptible to conjuration spells that originate outside the Antimagic Field. It also denies the person it's on any magical means to Flight to engage a caster. It also requires a high level enemy caster to sacrifice most of their power by centering it on themselves. And of course at 17th Level Wizards are just flat-out immune to it. This is pretty commonly known stuff so I'm wasn't sure if you were just joking or not so I included the reasons for completeness.
generalist
Why would anyone in their right mind ever be a universalist? ;D
Uh I don't know if you know this or not, but Antimagic Field turns off most of the person it's centered on best defenses and makes them super susceptible to conjuration spells that originate outside the Antimagic Field. It also denies the person it's on any magical means to Flight to engage a caster. It also requires a high level enemy caster to sacrifice most of their power by centering it on themselves. And of course at 17th Level Wizards are just flat-out immune to it. This is pretty commonly known stuff so I'm wasn't sure if you were just joking or not so I included the reasons for completeness.All wizard party are gods, nullified by one hyphenated word, and another word: Anti-Magic Shell.
The best (and possibly only) reason to play an Arcane Archer is to drop AMF's on people at 400'.
Animals tend to do badly against anything scary, particularly some undead. When all your trained animals refuse to enter combat, this tactic is a little scary. What's worse is a bison herd that runs back over the top of your casters in fright.
No problem. Just spend two tricks into attack:
Attack (DC 20) The animal attacks apparent enemies. You may point to a particular creature that you wish the animal to attack, and it will comply if able. Normally, an animal will attack only humanoids, monstrous humanoids, giants, or other animals. Teaching an animal to attack all creatures (including such unnatural creatures as undead and aberrations) counts as two tricks.
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Yeah I know that exists Bookrat, I meant more the ones with the aura that prevents animals from closing (wraiths etc). The trick does not counter act that at all.
Fire elementals are fire - no animal approaches fire without very specialised training. However, I believe your two trick use overcomes the fact it's a monster. Hmmmmmm. That one might need more exploring. I can see you training an animal to overcome its fear of fire to go into burning buildings etc, but I don't believe the trick of attacking everything overcomes that alone. Hmmmmmm.......
Again we're into DM territory here. Effectively, anything that's causing burning damage or fire weapons or the like might prevent animal companions from working. I don't think that's the intent though. Worth a FAQ maybe?
Is there a trick that specifies they can ignore fire? I'll have to searching now. Sheesh.
Yeah I know that exists Bookrat, I meant more the ones with the aura that prevents animals from closing (wraiths etc). The trick does not counter act that at all.
Under the wraith entry:
Unnatural Aura: Animals do not willingly approach within 30 feet of a wraith, unless a master makes a DC 25 Handle Animal, Ride, or wild empathy check.
Fire elementals are fire - no animal approaches fire without very specialised training. However, I believe your two trick use overcomes the fact it's a monster. Hmmmmmm. That one might need more exploring. I can see you training an animal to overcome its fear of fire to go into burning buildings etc, but I don't believe the trick of attacking everything overcomes that alone. Hmmmmmm.......
Again we're into DM territory here. Effectively, anything that's causing burning damage or fire weapons or the like might prevent animal companions from working. I don't think that's the intent though. Worth a FAQ maybe?
Is there a trick that specifies they can ignore fire? I'll have to searching now. Sheesh.
Why would you need an FAQ for a houserule? No where in the rules does it state that animals have a fear of fire. This is your houserule. I'd suggest also including a houserule to add in a trick to overcome it, but I wouldn't waste the dev's time FAQing a rule to satisfy house rules.
Uh I don't know if you know this or not, but Antimagic Field turns off most of the person it's centered on best defenses and makes them super susceptible to conjuration spells that originate outside the Antimagic Field. It also denies the person it's on any magical means to Flight to engage a caster. It also requires a high level enemy caster to sacrifice most of their power by centering it on themselves. And of course at 17th Level Wizards are just flat-out immune to it. This is pretty commonly known stuff so I'm wasn't sure if you were just joking or not so I included the reasons for completeness.All wizard party are gods, nullified by one hyphenated word, and another word: Anti-Magic Shell.
I think it is also possible to umd greater spell immunity, so that amf can't beat your spell resistance. All of my high level wizards have one or two.
I think it is also possible to umd greater spell immunity, so that amf can't beat your spell resistance. All of my high level wizards have one or two.Uh I don't know if you know this or not, but Antimagic Field turns off most of the person it's centered on best defenses and makes them super susceptible to conjuration spells that originate outside the Antimagic Field. It also denies the person it's on any magical means to Flight to engage a caster. It also requires a high level enemy caster to sacrifice most of their power by centering it on themselves. And of course at 17th Level Wizards are just flat-out immune to it. This is pretty commonly known stuff so I'm wasn't sure if you were just joking or not so I included the reasons for completeness.All wizard party are gods, nullified by one hyphenated word, and another word: Anti-Magic Shell.
AMF only requires an SR check when casting it on top of summons to stop the summons popping out. Your wizards having infinite SR doesn't do diddly against an AMF.
In fact, the only real options before level 9 spells that I can think of are planar binding/ally, indirect conjurations and maybe cute tricks with alchemical weapons and similar (bag of holding full of gunpowder barrels plus an alchemist's fire?). And Snowball. ****ing Snowball (why did they think printing lesser orb of snow was a good idea).
I think it is also possible to umd greater spell immunity, so that amf can't beat your spell resistance. All of my high level wizards have one or two.Uh I don't know if you know this or not, but Antimagic Field turns off most of the person it's centered on best defenses and makes them super susceptible to conjuration spells that originate outside the Antimagic Field. It also denies the person it's on any magical means to Flight to engage a caster. It also requires a high level enemy caster to sacrifice most of their power by centering it on themselves. And of course at 17th Level Wizards are just flat-out immune to it. This is pretty commonly known stuff so I'm wasn't sure if you were just joking or not so I included the reasons for completeness.All wizard party are gods, nullified by one hyphenated word, and another word: Anti-Magic Shell.
AMF only requires an SR check when casting it on top of summons to stop the summons popping out. Your wizards having infinite SR doesn't do diddly against an AMF.
In fact, the only real options before level 9 spells that I can think of are planar binding/ally, indirect conjurations and maybe cute tricks with alchemical weapons and similar (bag of holding full of gunpowder barrels plus an alchemist's fire?). And Snowball. ****ing Snowball (why did they think printing lesser orb of snow was a good idea).
I've heard quite some complaints about Snowball but was never really able to understand them.
Is it the save-or-stagger?
I think it is also possible to umd greater spell immunity, so that amf can't beat your spell resistance. All of my high level wizards have one or two.Uh I don't know if you know this or not, but Antimagic Field turns off most of the person it's centered on best defenses and makes them super susceptible to conjuration spells that originate outside the Antimagic Field. It also denies the person it's on any magical means to Flight to engage a caster. It also requires a high level enemy caster to sacrifice most of their power by centering it on themselves. And of course at 17th Level Wizards are just flat-out immune to it. This is pretty commonly known stuff so I'm wasn't sure if you were just joking or not so I included the reasons for completeness.All wizard party are gods, nullified by one hyphenated word, and another word: Anti-Magic Shell.
AMF only requires an SR check when casting it on top of summons to stop the summons popping out. Your wizards having infinite SR doesn't do diddly against an AMF.
In fact, the only real options before level 9 spells that I can think of are planar binding/ally, indirect conjurations and maybe cute tricks with alchemical weapons and similar (bag of holding full of gunpowder barrels plus an alchemist's fire?). And Snowball. ****ing Snowball (why did they think printing lesser orb of snow was a good idea).
I've heard quite some complaints about Snowball but was never really able to understand them.
Is it the save-or-stagger?
It's a ranged touch attack that ignores SR, deals the same damage as shocking grasp, AND has a save or stagger on top of that, all while being 1st level.
In short, snowball's a 2nd level spell that somehow made it onto the 1st level list =P
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Yeah I know that exists Bookrat, I meant more the ones with the aura that prevents animals from closing (wraiths etc). The trick does not counter act that at all.Under the wraith entry:
Unnatural Aura: Animals do not willingly approach within 30 feet of a wraith, unless a master makes a DC 25 Handle Animal, Ride, or wild empathy check.Fire elementals are fire - no animal approaches fire without very specialised training. However, I believe your two trick use overcomes the fact it's a monster. Hmmmmmm. That one might need more exploring. I can see you training an animal to overcome its fear of fire to go into burning buildings etc, but I don't believe the trick of attacking everything overcomes that alone. Hmmmmmm.......
Again we're into DM territory here. Effectively, anything that's causing burning damage or fire weapons or the like might prevent animal companions from working. I don't think that's the intent though. Worth a FAQ maybe?
Is there a trick that specifies they can ignore fire? I'll have to searching now. Sheesh.
Wraith's get run into at around level 5. Making a DC 25 handle animal at level 5 is difficult for most characters. It also uses their action to get it done. So potentially that's a caster and a pet out of action for a whole round trying to get the thing to attack. Not a good strategy.
As the fire thing. Do you need a rule for the behaviour of every thing in a game? I am going on the experience I have as a biologist who has some study in animal behaviour to know this about animals.
Do I need a rule for what NPC's will say or how they will behave? Do I need a rule that says the weather causes frost on the ground making it slippery?
These aren't house rules Bookrat. This is DMing. DM's (as you know) have to make a call all the time. Some DM's gloss over the details of the game world as unimportant compared to the rules.
Others feel the details of the gameworld are as important as the rules.
I'm of the second camp, which is why I believe books on designing detailed worlds and GMing for high level are more important than changing the base rules.Why would you need an FAQ for a houserule? No where in the rules does it state that animals have a fear of fire. This is your houserule. I'd suggest also including a houserule to add in a trick to overcome it, but I wouldn't waste the dev's time FAQing a rule to satisfy house rules.