Unmasking the Vigilante- Round 2. Traits

[Wolfspirit]

TLDR: Analysis that existing d8 skill classes get ~1.5 Vigilante talents per level, some ideas for re-balancing “Social Talents” as “Skill Talents”, and making a case for Dual Identity and Seamless Guise to be turned into Social Talents

One piece of feedback that I’ve heard on the boards and observed from my own Vigilante Playtests is that Vigilantes feel lacking in class features and abilities compared to existing equivalent classes. To test this out, something I started working on for the Playtest was an idea to reverse engineer the existing ¾ BAB, d8 HD, 6+ int skill per level classes (with Ranger thrown in to compare Avengers) from the perspective of treating their class features as Vigilante talents, focusing on levels 1-8*. Sadly, I’m not going to be able to provide as detailed as an analysis as I would have liked to in the playtest time window, but I was hoping to get this up in time to have a bit of discussion.

Why level 1-8:

I focused on level 1-8 partly for time, but also because after level 8 Vigilante several Talents begin to scale oddly and complicate the analysis. Covering mid- high level talents is its own topic of conversation.

What classifies as a Vigilante Talent:

Some of the class features from those classes were easier to classify as “Vigilante Talents” than others, for example Stern Gaze, Rogue Talents, Favored Terrain, Combat Feats, Trapfinding and Evasion are achievable through Vigilante Talents. A few others such as Domain and Track were Vigilante Talents in Round 1 but were removed, so those could conceivably be counted as Vigilante Talents as well. Bard and Inquisitor had free Arcane / Divine training, so those were counted. Finally, a few abilities were blind guesses, such as “Is Favored Enemy equivalent to Smite?” but I classified them as “Vigilante Talent Equivalent” for raw power. A few abilities per class didn’t really fit as “Vigilante Talents” and instead felt more like filler or situational bonuses such as Trap / Danger sense, Woodland Stride, and Well Versed.

Overall I found that from 1-8, the existing classes had roughly 1.5 Vigilante Talents per level. The Core Rogue had the lowest “Vigilante Talents Per Level” out of the classes I analyzed with the Unchained rogue clearly outclassing it. The Inquisitor and Bard, with their “free” casting progression were roughly the same (Core bard was difficult to analyze with Bardic performance, though the Archaeologist lined up well.)

Even if “1.5 Vigilante Talents per level” is just a rough estimate though, it seems incredibly challenging to create a character that is the equivalent of existing classes with the current Social Talent / Vigilante Talent framework. For this to be true, Social Talents would need stand on their own and to be roughly be as useful as a Vigilante Talent. However, the current set of Social Talents fall into three main categories: RP-focused, specialized use of Disguise, or only apply when in the Social Identity. While a few are interesting, they’re largely situational or have a usefulness that is highly campaign dependent. They’re fine as options but to really stand on their own, each Social Talent would need have at least the same impact as “social” abilities of other classes such as Versatile Performance, Discern Lies, Stern Gaze, etc.

This got me thinking… what if Vigilante Social Talents were expanded to be more like “skill talents.” If Social Talents included things like Track, Discern Lies, or some of the Rogue Traits that gave skill bonuses, it would help reduce the disparity between the Vigilante and similar classes. Additionally, there are also some existing Vigilante traits that would also make good Social Traits like Case the Joint or Mockingbird that would be interesting to use, but would be unlikely for an ability-starved Vigilante to take. A good dividing line would be abilities that don’t have direct combat use.

Finally, thinking about Social Traits made me consider one more thing: what if Dual Identity and Seamless Guise were actually Social Traits. Currently the Vigilante has a lot of its first level tied up in those two abilities which really could be Social Traits. I’ve already written quite a bit here about how Dual Identity is a situational ability, and both are heavily specialized uses of Disguise that not every Vigilante is ever going to use. With those abilities as options that can be take, this would give more design space to be given to a Vigilante Trait or Specialization ability at first level and shore up the overall weakness the Vigilante has at First Level.

[Trekkie90909]

This sort of ranking scheme is always going to be highly subjective since it's basically a question of "well I feel class x's ability is more/less strong than class y's ability." Ignoring Vigilante Talent scaling further complicates the issue since things like sneak attack, weapon training, judgements, and favored enemy all scale. It is true that these already published abilities (progression on the order of every other level/ 3rd/5th) are much more polished in their scaling and provide a smoother progression curve than many of the Vigilante Talents/abilities (progression every 6th or 12th in many cases).

I think 1.5 Vigilante Talents per level is rather skewed/an over-exaggeration, but maybe if you showed some of the concrete data from your analysis I could be convinced otherwise.

My playtesting of the class leads me to think existing Classes are more powerful than the Vigilante in standard scenarios, but this too is skewed because no one wants to play a Zealot and that leaves the party vulnerable to a number of things (like damage) which could otherwise be mitigated.

The matter is further complicated because expert class are supposed to be specialized into a certain role (knowledge for bards, traps for rogues, life/death for clerics). We see this with the bard, and rogue especially - at some point Paizo got away from that with classes like the Inquisitor and Warpriest (which are powerhouses far superior to many full BAB classes). Then too the 4 specializations have completely different power levels for most of their talents. Avenger is on a feat paradigm, Stalker is on a utility ability paradigm (usually far more powerful than feats but only situationally usable), Warlock is built as an experiment on 'how to nerf spellcasters,' and honestly I got bored with the round 2 zealot less than halfway through its first ability so I can't comment on it other than to say what I did read was poorly worded.

I would say that the Stalker finds a happy middle ground between the specialized and combat classes; so if you're looking for a comparison that should be your setpoint. Currently the social aspect has the Many Guises and Safe-House going for it. Many Guises is superior to the Rogue's Edge ability (cirtainly for disguise; arguably for all 20 levels even when picking other skills to unlock), quick change is also quite strong but mostly as a buff to the disguise line, and Safehouse is a nice instant hiding spot where you can't be found which trumps trapfinding in my mind. Pound for Pound Stalker Talents are better than Rogue talents and Hiddenstrike can actually be used in combat so it's better than sneak attack; Finesse Training is better than anything the Stalker gets but is offset by how weak Rogue Talents are in general. Debilitating Injury is about equal to the 'Appearance' line coupled with some of the Hidden Strike riders.

It's harder to compare with other classes; especially spell casters. Looking just at class features I think the Stalker holds its own. The Social Aspect needs some beefing up to provide the level of utility available from spell casting. The two halves of the class also need to meld together better so I'd say classes like the Bard are better at the moment. I look forward seeing what Paizo's polishing touch can do for the class by the time of publication for Ultimate Intrigue.

The Avenger mostly needs help at high levels; it lacks scaling. It's also flimsy, much too easy to kill. At low levels however its martial weapon proficiency, medium armor, and huge feat selection make it no worse than a fighter (I'd argue slightly better since it can sneak around and use vital strike on AoOs). A well spec'd Fighter is quite good at low levels so again I'd give the nod to the Vigilante.

The casting specializations both need a lot of work. I'll ignore Zealot for now because it's still in pre-alpha testing development. The Warlock on the other hand is somewhere around the alpha or beta stage. They're undeniably weaker than everything at low levels. They wear armor but can't cast spells or they cast spells to get armor and then have no slots per day. They have good weapon proficiencies but no abilities to back that up. They have good skills, but if they had more spell casting they'd have better-than-skills and that's what most magical classes get (with similar skills per level to boot). Warlock design stagnant because it's still a not-magus/not-alchemist. If it were changed around so that it actually did something unique of its own (I don't care what -- mystic bolts progression, magical swords it pulls out of thin air, tatto chamber and item bonuses, full casting) it would be rateable. As it is now it's this jumbled mess of a Specialization that can't actually do anything of its own. My experience is this follows the Warlock all the way to level 10. I predict all the way to 20.

Logan has posted that they made more changes to the Warlock than were released in Round 2 - which seems weird to me since the whole point of a playtest is to see what works/needs changing before polishing the final product up for print (not the time to keep all your secrets close to your chest).

TL/DR: Avenger/Stalker are fine if you're doing this sort of analysis in the 1-8 range, Avenger definitely lacks scaling above that and loses out in an Analysis. Stalker's fine if you're looking at 1-20 (keep up the good work ;). Warlock/Zealot are not ready for playtest yet - they're still in the early development stages (they lack both theme and specialization -- hence much in the way of Talent options or alternate build paths).

[M1k31]

Trekkie90909 wrote:

This sort of ranking scheme is always going to be highly subjective since it's basically a question of "well I feel class x's ability is more/less strong than class y's ability." Ignoring Vigilante Talent scaling further complicates the issue since things like sneak attack, weapon training, judgements, and favored enemy all scale. It is true that these already published abilities (progression on the order of every other level/ 3rd/5th) are much more polished in their scaling and provide a smoother progression curve than many of the Vigilante Talents/abilities (progression every 6th or 12th in many cases).

You do realize how few vigilante talents scale right? Even abilities that would normally scale(spell progression) don't. some talents are the only way to scale other talents, while of the few that do some fail to scale to match comparable skills.

[Trekkie90909]

M1k31 wrote:

Trekkie90909 wrote:

This sort of ranking scheme is always going to be highly subjective since it's basically a question of "well I feel class x's ability is more/less strong than class y's ability." Ignoring Vigilante Talent scaling further complicates the issue since things like sneak attack, weapon training, judgements, and favored enemy all scale. It is true that these already published abilities (progression on the order of every other level/ 3rd/5th) are much more polished in their scaling and provide a smoother progression curve than many of the Vigilante Talents/abilities (progression every 6th or 12th in many cases).

You do realize how few vigilante talents scale right? Even abilities that would normally scale(spell progression) don't. some talents are the only way to scale other talents, while of the few that do some fail to scale to match comparable skills.

If you treat the Appearance line as one scaling talent-equivalent all of the specializations get one scaling ability.

For the social side we only have 13 or 14 talents so far of which only one (Safe House) scales.

The avenger gets Full bab which is a scaling ability (albeit fairly linear). Further 9/15 Talents Scale. The ones which don’t are the new/unique abilities like Vital Punishment, Living Shield, and Mad Rush – all of which can be polished up based on playtest data.

Stalker gets hidden strike which scales. 6 Stalker Abilities scale uniquely; 7 more Scale in that they apply hidden strike or are otherwise made more viable by its scaling, and Hide in Plain Sight scales with items/ranks. So 6, 13, or 14 out of 22 in the book scale depending on how you count it. If you include the three Mark’s released in his thread, add all of them to both columns (+3 scaling, +3 total talents).

Warlock’s Arcane Training I actually does scale. They get more spells prepared regardless of spell slots, which gives them more utility. Further they can learn new spells by scribing them into their Spell Book. Granted with at most 3-4 base slots per day that's bad spellcasting. It'd be nice if they at least got 0 spells per day for higher level spells than they have purchased via Arcane Training so they can benefit from their automatic Spells Prepared Table (if they have really high int scores). Still good compared to martials/the Social Aspect. AT II to VI scale similarly. 10 of the Warlock’s non-arcane training abilities scale, 11 if you include Concealed Casting which scales off Sleight of Hand (items/spells/ranks) out of 13 non arcane training talents (16/18 if you include arcane training).

Zealot’s spellcasting does not scale making it unique amongst the specializations. I re-iterate; the Zealot was not ready for play-test. I won’t bother looking at it, but maybe someone else will.

That's an overwhelming majority of all non-social talents. Given that the social talents are half the class they probably shouldn't be ignored, in which case only about half your talent-options for a given specialization scale. Boo-hoo. :P

[M1k31]

Trekkie90909 wrote:

M1k31 wrote:

Trekkie90909 wrote:

This sort of ranking scheme is always going to be highly subjective since it's basically a question of "well I feel class x's ability is more/less strong than class y's ability." Ignoring Vigilante Talent scaling further complicates the issue since things like sneak attack, weapon training, judgements, and favored enemy all scale. It is true that these already published abilities (progression on the order of every other level/ 3rd/5th) are much more polished in their scaling and provide a smoother progression curve than many of the Vigilante Talents/abilities (progression every 6th or 12th in many cases).

You do realize how few vigilante talents scale right? Even abilities that would normally scale(spell progression) don't. some talents are the only way to scale other talents, while of the few that do some fail to scale to match comparable skills.

If you treat the Appearance line as one scaling talent-equivalent all of the specializations get one scaling ability.

For the social side we only have 13 or 14 talents so far of which only one (Safe House) scales.

The avenger gets Full bab which is a scaling ability (albeit fairly linear). Further 9/15 Talents Scale. The ones which don’t are the new/unique abilities like Vital Punishment, Living Shield, and Mad Rush – all of which can be polished up based on playtest data.

Stalker gets hidden strike which scales. 6 Stalker Abilities scale uniquely; 7 more Scale in that they apply hidden strike or are otherwise made more viable by its scaling, and Hide in Plain Sight scales with items/ranks. So 6, 13, or 14 out of 22 in the book scale depending on how you count it. If you include the three Mark’s released in his thread, add all of them to both columns (+3 scaling, +3 total talents).

Warlock’s Arcane Training I actually does scale. They get more spells prepared regardless of spell slots, which gives them more utility. Further they can learn new spells by scribing them into their Spell...

I was referring to actual "TALENTS" not base abilities... if the appearance line were talents they would most likely each be separate talents based on what they do and how talents equate... and the appearance line itself appears relatively useful depending greatly on which specialization you are... not on how great their own merits are.

In fact you could likely replace them with access to another talent at 5th, 11th, and 17th while placing the appearance line on a general talent list and actually improve the class.

[Thrawn007]

I think you might be too quick in your fighter/Avenger comparisons when you give a clear advantage to the Avenger.

Pro-Avenger
Social Identity and Talents
Startling/Frightening Appearance
2 Good Saves
6 skill points
Choice of Talents that are often stronger than combat feat equivalents (and you can always take combat feats to try to match the fighter almost feat for feat)

Pro-Fighter
More HP (d10's instead of d8's)
Heavy Armor without having to use a talent/feat
Extra Feat (Level 1 feat isn't matched by an Avenger Talent)
Fighter specific feats that come online at more useful levels
Bravery
Armor Training
Weapon Training (hit and damage boost)
Large selection of archttypes to get unique abilities

I think the comparison is much closer than you think. It really depends on how well your particular build utilizes the talents that aren't combat feats to make up for the fighter's extra feat advantage and special training abilities...and I don't think I have built an Avenger yet where I didn't look at one or more of the fighter archtypes and go "if only I could get that...I could make this concept more usable."

[Thrawn007]

I'll also say that having played a fey zealot tonight (and basically ignoring spellcasting at level 1) that vanishing step was the most useful ability I've played with out of ANY of the vigilantes I've had on the table. Can't figure out what to do with the rest of the class (like what to do with my level 2 talent now that I got there), but at least that one ability made the class fun at some level.

[M1k31]

why does everyone give the appearance line as though it starts at level one... doesn't it start working only after level 5?

[Thrawn007]

I'm looking at how the classes compare from level 1-12, not just what it does at level 1. Armor training, weapon training, and bravery aren't level 1 on the fighter side either.

[M1k31]

I wasn't referring to you specifically... I have seen a bunch of posts describing level 1-3 builds that make it seem like its some amazing power they have. Personally I always have problems getting beyond level 3... either we have a TPK or someone decides "lets play a different scenario" at that point, so I personally really want something to like in those levels... and I'm just not seeing it.

[Wolfspirit]

I'll try to post at least an in-depth analysis of a class later; I know that is the weakest part (again, lack of time and real life... major project due at work) but I at least wanted to get the idea out there. I also realize that it's all highly subjective.

One point I was trying to make about Vigilante talent scaling (but guess I lost at some point in writing): there are a few really nice Vigilante talents that scale, but a large number don't. I'd honestly rather Vigilante Talents *didn't* scale the way they did and have access to more of them; it makes the class scale really oddly. Level 8-12 is sort of the "soft cap" for the class when a few nice talent investments start to pay off and key talent choices are less harsh. The early levels are a lot more dry and I've been struggling in my playtests.

On the Fighter: comparing the Avenger to the Fighter is difficult; that's why I was comparing the Avenger to the Ranger (and I started looking at the Slayer.) The Avenger starts off worse than the Fighter but starts to exceed it when the "Two for one" talents start to take off. The Core Fighter and Core Rogue also have some of the fewest abilities out of all the classes. I do realize it's complicated balancing 1 class against the Bard, Fighter, Inquisitor, Investigator, Ranger, Rogue, Slayer, and Unchained Rogue, though.

Anyway, "How do Vigilante Talents" compare, does anyone have feedback on the Social Talents and Dual Identity as a Social Talent?

[Trekkie90909]

M1k13 wrote:

I was referring to actual "TALENTS" not base abilities...

In which case you're still wrong because well over half do scale.

[Trekkie90909]

Thrawn007 wrote:

I think you might be too quick in your fighter/Avenger comparisons when you give a clear advantage to the Avenger.

Pro-Avenger
Social Identity and Talents
Startling/Frightening Appearance
2 Good Saves
6 skill points
Choice of Talents that are often stronger than combat feat equivalents (and you can always take combat feats to try to match the fighter almost feat for feat)

Pro-Fighter
More HP (d10's instead of d8's)
Heavy Armor without having to use a talent/feat
Extra Feat (Level 1 feat isn't matched by an Avenger Talent)
Fighter specific feats that come online at more useful levels
Bravery
Armor Training
Weapon Training (hit and damage boost)
Large selection of archttypes to get unique abilities

I think the comparison is much closer than you think. It really depends on how well your particular build utilizes the talents that aren't combat feats to make up for the fighter's extra feat advantage and special training abilities...and I don't think I have built an Avenger yet where I didn't look at one or more of the fighter archtypes and go "if only I could get that...I could make this concept more usable."

The better will save negates bravery (and is superior). Fighter has better HP, but once scaling feat Talents are available is not bettter feat-wise. Fighter's Heavy Armor is better levels 3-5 probably, but evens out. Fighter Specific Feat Line is definitely better, but isn't much of a factor in the level 1-8 range. Armor Training and Weapon Training don't really start coming on line until 10 (I've said high level Avengers need work). Below 10 Startling Appearance is far superior to the two combined. If combats on average last longer than 2 rounds for you then this situation is reversed, but the Vigilante is more of a hit and run class anyways.

Archetypes are going to be released with the actual book; I have no idea why that's a factor here. 'Unique abilities;' I think you covered those already in the pro-fighter list.

EDIT: In light of Armor Training's reduced ACP, I think the Avenger Talent Armor Skin could be further buffed at high levels. Still not a factor 1-8, but something I'd like the design team to consider.

[Alexander Augunas]

Wolfspirit wrote:

On the Fighter: comparing the Avenger to the Fighter is difficult; that's why I was comparing the Avenger to the Ranger (and I started looking at the Slayer.) The Avenger starts off worse than the Fighter but starts to exceed it when the "Two for one" talents start to take off. The Core Fighter and Core Rogue also have some of the fewest abilities out of all the classes. I do realize it's complicated balancing 1 class against the Bard, Fighter, Inquisitor, Investigator, Ranger, Rogue, Slayer, and Unchained Rogue, though.

Anyway, "How do Vigilante Talents" compare, does anyone have feedback on the Social Talents and Dual Identity as a Social Talent?

One thing to keep in mind is that in Pathfinder, two static feats are worth one flexible feat. For example, in the race building rules, a human's flexible bonus feat is 4 while every racial trait that grants a specific bonus feat (like the elf trait that grants Run) is worth 2 to. Likewise, there are several archetypes for the fighter that trade the fighter's 1st bonus feat for 2 specific feats. Basically, the fighter beats the avenger in flexibility of his feats, which is exactly how it beats the slayer or ranger.

Balancing one class against many is difficult, but balancing each specialization against its comparison class is more manageable. Personally, I don't think that various vigilante specializations ought to be any more balanced against one another than the bars and rogue are; a little bit, but not primarily so.

On making dual identity a talent, I don't think that idea floats. Dual identity is one of the major selling points of the vigilante class; it is literally the basis of the entire class from the designer's perspective. Just as they have said that it isn't useful feedback to talk about dropping dual identity, I strongly suspect that building in a mechanic to opt out of it is also a moot point. Besides, almost all of the social talents interact with the social identity specifically, and many vigilante talents reference it as well. You are literally talking about breaking and rewriting the whole class.

[M1k31]

Trekkie90909 wrote:

M1k13 wrote:

I was referring to actual "TALENTS" not base abilities...

In which case you're still wrong because well over half do scale.

Armor Skin (Ex): At 8th level

Close the Gap (Ex): nope

Combat Skill (Ex): in a way... but not really

Environment Weapon (Ex): at 5th, 10th, 15th, and 20th levels, the avenger can select an additional type of terrain.... I hope you can wait that long to fight somewhere different....

Favored Maneuver (Ex): nope

Fist of the Avenger (Ex): Improved Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat. scales to a maximum of +5...

Heavy Training (Ex): Scales armor skin then scales again at 16th level if the vigilante has armor skin

Living Shield (Ex): nope

Mad Rush (Ex): must be at least 12th level to select this talent, no scaling

Nothing Can Stop Me (Ex): nope

Shield of Fury (Ex): Improved Shield Bash as a bonus feat. scales at 6th level unless you have the Two-Weapon Fighting feat already.

Signature Weapon (Ex): Weapon Focus, at 8th level, he also gains Weapon Specialization

Suckerpunch (Ex): 6th, 12th, and 18th levels

Unexpected Strike (Ex): The avenger vigilante gains Quick Draw as a bonus feat. At 8th level, he can draw hidden weapons as a swift action

Unkillable (Ex): At 6th, 12th, 18th level,

Vital Punishment (Ex): must be at least 6th level before taking this talent. can be scaled by using feats....

Avenger: 9 technically scale, 5 do not... it is closer to 8/6 if you don't count HT as scaling because it only scales AT... but you would most likely use them together anyways.

Another Day (Ex, Su): nope

Case the Joint (Ex): nope

Cunning Feint (Ex): at 8th level

Expose Weakness (Ex): nope

Evasive (Ex): at 12th level, he gains the improved evasion ability.

Foe Collision* (Ex): nope

Hide in Plain Sight (Ex): must be at least 8th level to choose this talent, no scaling

Leave an Opening* (Ex): nope

Mighty Ambush* (Ex): technically scales(Fort negates, DC = 10 + 1/2 the vigilante’s level + the higher of the vigilante’s Strength and Dexterity modifiers). must be at least 10th level to choose this talent.

Mockingbird (Ex): nope, must be at least 4th level to choose this talent.

Perfect Fall (Ex): nope

Perfect Vulnerability (Ex): must be at least 8th level to choose this talent, no scaling

Pull into the Shadows (Ex): nope

Rogue Talent (Ex): likely does

Rooftop Infiltrator (Ex): nope

Shadow’s Sight (Ex): nope... I'm kind of curious if you can increase this with items/feats as it specifies "if you already have darkvision" as opposed to if you get it...

Silent Dispatch (Ex): nope

Sniper (Ex): nope, must be at least 6th level to choose this talent.

Strike the Unseen (Ex): At 10th & 16th level

Surprise Strike (Ex): at 8th and 16th level.

Throat Jab* (Ex): nope, must be at least 4th level to choose this talent.

Twisting Fear (Ex):scales with hidden strike

Up Close and Personal (Ex): nope, must be at least 4th level to choose this talent.

Stalker: 16 don't scale, 6 do...

combined martial: 15 scale, 21 don't

will do the other 2 in another post later

[Thrawn007]

Wolfspirit wrote:

On the Fighter: comparing the Avenger to the Fighter is difficult; that's why I was comparing the Avenger to the Ranger (and I started looking at the Slayer.) The Avenger starts off worse than the Fighter but starts to exceed it when the "Two for one" talents start to take off. The Core Fighter and Core Rogue also have some of the fewest abilities out of all the classes. I do realize it's complicated balancing 1 class against the Bard, Fighter, Inquisitor, Investigator, Ranger, Rogue, Slayer, and Unchained Rogue, though.

There are two "two for one" talents for the Avenger right now. Taking one of them, and then using everything else on combat feats will put you even with the fighter in feats. If you take both of them, then you end up a feat ahead. However, if you are taking both of them, then the only build you have is sword and board, so a vigilante can surpass a fighter in number of feats for a sword and board build. However, sword and board implies you are playing a tank build, and you are at a hit point disadvantage vs the fighter, which can be problematic for a tank. Furthermore, the Armor Master, Phalanx Soldier, Shielded Fighter, Tower Shield Specialist, or Two-Weapon Fighter archtypes all give options that can make the fighter more effective with sword and board tipping things back in their favor.

[Terminalmancer]

Thrawn007 wrote:

There are two "two for one" talents for the Avenger right now. Taking one of them, and then using everything else on combat feats will put you even with the fighter in feats. If you take both of them, then you end up a feat ahead. [...]

That's not strictly true in all cases. The fighter also has heavy armor proficiency built in, so if you're working on a build that requires heavy armor, you're essentially down two feats. So you can make it up, but it tends to happen much later, leaving you behind a feat or even two early on.

The avenger has more skills--and a will save--which probably are worth a feat, or maybe even two, but you have a smaller HD and you lose armor training and weapon training, which combined are probably worth a feat or two to most weapon-based builds. That leaves the balance of the Avenger's talents to make up for the fighter's better proficiencies, which the social identity probably does not make up for right now. For most builds...

[Trekkie90909]

M1k31 wrote:

Trekkie90909 wrote:

M1k13 wrote:

I was referring to actual "TALENTS" not base abilities...

In which case you're still wrong because well over half do scale.

Armor Skin (Ex): At 8th level

Close the Gap (Ex): nope

Combat Skill (Ex): in a way... but not really

Environment Weapon (Ex): at 5th, 10th, 15th, and 20th levels, the avenger can select an additional type of terrain.... I hope you can wait that long to fight somewhere different....

Favored Maneuver (Ex): nope

Fist of the Avenger (Ex): Improved Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat. scales to a maximum of +5...

Heavy Training (Ex): Scales armor skin then scales again at 16th level if the vigilante has armor skin

Living Shield (Ex): nope

Mad Rush (Ex): must be at least 12th level to select this talent, no scaling

Nothing Can Stop Me (Ex): nope

Shield of Fury (Ex): Improved Shield Bash as a bonus feat. scales at 6th level unless you have the Two-Weapon Fighting feat already.

Signature Weapon (Ex): Weapon Focus, at 8th level, he also gains Weapon Specialization

Suckerpunch (Ex): 6th, 12th, and 18th levels

Unexpected Strike (Ex): The avenger vigilante gains Quick Draw as a bonus feat. At 8th level, he can draw hidden weapons as a swift action

Unkillable (Ex): At 6th, 12th, 18th level,

Vital Punishment (Ex): must be at least 6th level before taking this talent. can be scaled by using feats....

Avenger: 9 technically scale, 5 do not... it is closer to 8/6 if you don't count HT as scaling because it only scales AT... but you would most likely use them together anyways.

Another Day (Ex, Su): nope

Case the Joint (Ex): nope

Cunning Feint (Ex): at 8th level

Expose Weakness (Ex): nope

Evasive (Ex): at 12th level, he gains the improved evasion ability.

Foe Collision* (Ex): nope

Hide in Plain Sight (Ex): must be at least 8th level to choose this talent, no scaling

Leave an Opening* (Ex): nope

Mighty Ambush* (Ex): technically scales(Fort negates, DC = 10 + 1/2 the...

Agree generally with the avenger list.

The stalker list is a little more subtle in its scaling, making use of multiple abilities to do so.

Case the joint scales off Know: Engineering.

Foe Collision scales off hidden strike

Hide in plain sight scales off stealth

Situationally leave an opening scales off hidden strike, but does not inherently do so. More generally it scales off of everything which modifies an attack (items, BAB, buffs). It scales exceptionally well off of feats, especially combat reflexes and anything that lets you hit more than one enemy a turn.

Mighty Ambush scales

Perfect Vulnerability scales off hidden strike, also off how strong an enemy you’re facing. Also it scales with the * abilities you can get.

Most rogue talents do not scale

Silent Dispatch scales off Stealth (I think I forgot to include this in my initial list)

UC&P scales off both acrobatics and hidden strike damage (success), and AC (failure). Also it scales off the * abilities you can get

[Wolfspirit]

Sneaking (pun intended) a Stalker Vigilante vs Unchained Rogue comparison. I doubt I'll get another up in time for the Playtest window.

The Unchained Rogue and Vigilante comparison isn't exactly an identical: the Unchained Rogue has an extra 2 skill points per level compared to the bonus to Will Saves that the Vigilante gets. Both are useful, so for the point of discussion I'll leave them as equivalent now for an even starting point. Sneak Attack and Hidden Strike are largely equivalent; which is better is highly situational and won't factor into this analysis.

Level 1: Abilities gained: Finesse training, sneak attack +1d6, trapfinding. Finesse training is equivalent of a Rogue Trait which is equivalent of a Vigilante Trait. Trapfinding is an existing Vigilante Trait. Sneak Attack- Equivalent. 2 Effective Vigilante Talents gained
Level 2: Abilities gained: Evasion, rogue talent. Both are straight up Vigilante Talents for this level window, though the Vigilante version gets better at level 12. 2 Effective Vigilante Talents gained.
Level 3: Abilities gained: Danger sense +1, finesse training, sneak attack +2d6. At this level Finesse Training grants Dex to damage with a specific weapon type which is AMAZING and the envy of Stalker Vigilantes everywhere. If this was a stand alone Stalker Vigilante Talent, I would take it, so I'll count it. Danger Sense +1 is situational, but not worth a Vigilante Talent. Perhaps a Social Talent. 1 Effective Vigilante Talent gained
Level 4: Abilities gained: Debilitating injury, rogue talent, uncanny dodge. Rogue Talent is an easy Vigilante Talent. Debilitating Injury is questionably an equivalent to a Vigilante talent (Hampered is nice.) Uncanny Dodge is also rather nice. I would argue that Debilitating Injury and Uncanny dodge would be at least worth a Vigilante Talent, but for the sake of argument I'll leave them out. 1 Effective Vigilante Talent gained.
Level 5: Abilities gained: Rogue's edge, sneak attack +3d6. Rogue's edge is nice, but not really a Vigilante talent. I would love if there was a Social Talent like it. 0 Effective Vigilante Talents gained.
Level 6: Abilities gained: Danger sense +2, rogue talent. Danger sense, again, isn't worth a Vigilante Talent. Rogue Talent is. 1 effective Vigilante Talent gained.
Level 7: Abilities gained: Sneak attack +4d6. Losing Steam here. 0 Effective Vigilante Talents gained.
Level 8: Abilities gained: Improved uncanny dodge, rogue talent. Rogue Talent is worth a Vigilante Talent. Improved Uncanny Dodge... even if you can argue that Uncanny Dodge isn't a Vigilante Talent, at the very least Improved Uncanny Dodge should be. 2 Effective Vigilante Talents gained.

With this analysis, *conservatively* the Unchained Rogue has 9 Vigilante Talents over the course of 8 levels. If Debilitating Injury, Uncanny Dodge, and Rogue's Edge were thrown in the mix, this would put it at 12 over the course 8 levels, for 1.5 Vigilante Talents per level. There is also Danger Sense +2, which is nice, but nothing overly exciting.

Put another way, it's very challenging to build out a Stalker Vigilante that has abilities equivalent to the Unchained Rogue. In the same 8 level range, they would need to take Trapfinding, Evasive, and... rogue talent twice? This leaves the Vigilante down Weapon Finesse, 1 Rogue Talent, Dex to Damage, Uncanny Dodge, Improved Uncanny Dodge, Debilitating Injury, Rogue's Edge, and Trap Sense +2. In exchange for those the Vigilante gets Dual Identity, Seamless Guise and four Social Talents, which seems like a lot of ground to cover.

Obviously, few Stalker Vigilantes will take those as their choices. There's a lot juicier options to take, like Up Close and Personal or Twisting Fear. Gain Darkvision! Gain a Climb Speed! But building and playing a Stalker Vigilante, it's hard to shake the feeling of being starved for abilities and feats. Understandably, there needs to be some cost for the flexibility and modular nature of the class, but right now it's a pretty hefty cost.

[Mark Seifter]

When I first saw the original post, I couldn't see your thoughts worked out in detail, but I figured you were considering rogue talent to be worth a vigilante talent. Thanks for the analysis! Don't forget the vigilante has all martial weapon proficiencies. Here's some of my own thoughts on stalker vs Unchained rogue for levels 1-8.

Level 1: Unchained rogue is up 2 skill points per level, but for now that's only 2 skill points. She also has trapfinding and Finesse Training. Of those, Finesse Training is worth a feat (Weapon Finesse) assuming a Dex build. The stalker has good Will saves, worth a feat for any build (Iron Will), all martial weapons, worth a feat by far for a Strength build (falchions and the like are very good weapons) or archery build (composite longbow) and somewhat useful for a Dex build (for kukri, which sadly rogue lacks), and a social talent. As a social talent, social grace for +4 Perception is similar to trapfinding in some ways and far more useful than trapfinding in most cases (more likely to find the trap) until much higher levels, when social grace has scaled to add even more skills. Advantage, stalker, pretty handily.
Level 2: In addition to the usual Will save vs skill points, Unchained rogue gains evasion and a rogue talent. Stalker gets a vigilante talent instead. If the stalker was trying to mimic the rogue here, he would wind up getting a bigger payoff over time (since his one talent for evasion also grants the rogue advanced talent improved evasion, just not yet). However, his other vigilante talents may be simply enough superior to rogue talent options to warrant not taking evasion. Some of them are pretty powerful.
Level 3: This and level 4 are Unchained rogue's best levels out of all 20 levels when compared to the stalker, since the stalker's scaling talents haven't kicked in yet at all. Here we gain Dex-to-damage and +1 Danger Sense. For a Dex build, this is clearly way better than the social talent, which for now is likely renown for more Intimidate in our whole city and the ability to auto-charm a smaller subset of people.
Level 4: Debilitating injury, uncanny dodge (which is roughly 1/3 of a scaling stalker talent, but you get it sooner as a rogue) and rogue talent for rogue vs stalker talent for stalker. The other of Unchained rogue's best levels. While the stalker talent is way better than a rogue talent, debilitating injury is certainly powerful enough to be worth a stalker talent, so the rogue gets more here, for sure.
Level 5: Rogue gets rogue's edge, which is useful but mainly scales at higher levels, which we haven't counted in the stalker's favor so we won't for the rogue here either. The vigilante pulls out a huge reversal on the rogue by not only picking up a social talent (which by this points we likely have the prerequisites to get something more useful in the short term than the unlock) but also Startling Appearance, which is extremely good for the stalker.
Level 6: Danger sense increases and a rogue talent vs a vigilante talent. Advantage stalker; vigilante talents are not only generally better than rogue talents, but they also have prerequisite levels other than 10, so especially the level 6 and 8 talent are going to knock the socks off the rogue's options (since the rogue only goes up to advanced talents at 10th level). Plus we start scaling some of our vigilante talents, so suddenly more boosts start appearing, depending on your build.
Level 7: Unchained Rogue gets nothing here (of course, Hidden Strike and Sneak Attack happen at every level; we're ignoring those scaling up) to the stalker's social talent.
Level 8: Improved Uncanny Dodge and rogue talent for the rogue vs vigilante talent for the stalker. So that's another piece of one of the stalker's talents (along with the rogue's previous Uncanny Dodge, she now has most of the Stalker Sense talent) plus a rogue talent vs a vigilante talent. At lower levels, this might have been more comparable, but right now rogue is suffering in that it is still picking from the talents available at 1st level whereas stalker is able to take 8th level talents (this will be remedied at 10th for the rogue), which can push it in the stalker's favor.

Some interesting things to notice: The Unchained rogue is actually a really fun and interesting contender with the stalker, depending on your build, and we stopped before 10th, where things get harder to determine due to advanced talents, which have much more punch compared to vigilante talents (by which I mean, vigilante talents are still more powerful, but advanced talents are closer) and skill unlocks start doing more impressive stuff, combined with more scaling vigilante talents popping up their scaling. However, the main things that make it a contender in my analysis are all things added after the original rogue, so the stalker would just annihilate the normal rogue in these comparisons (even more so due to the quality improvements of the Unchained rogue's talents; the stalker talents have even more of an edge over the old rogue talents). Thus, GMs who are using the original rogue should take note of that fact.

[Wolfspirit]

Thanks, Mark, I greatly appreciate you taking the time for your feedback. The Unchained Rogue and the Stalker were actually pretty close to parity (I like the Stalker most out of all the specializations at this point.)

I'll admit that I hadn't counted in the weapon proficiency; that's something that I've learned to work around by various means. That does edge things up slightly, but it's not really flashy. The Perception bonus vs Trapfinding at level 1 is also a good point, though it doesn't help with magical traps (which there are a surprising number of in PFS)

The only other comments I would have were for levels 3 and 4. First, Renown is highly campaign dependent and hard to pull off when traveling constantly, Second... what is the scaling Uncanny Dodge talent?

I'll have to try and stick out my Stalker Vigilante to 4 and beyond, that is really when the class looks like it starts to get more interesting.

[Alexander Augunas]

Mark Seifter wrote:

As a social talent, social grace for +4 Perception is similar to trapfinding in some ways and far more useful than trapfinding in most cases (more likely to find the trap) until much higher levels, when social grace has scaled to add even more skills. Advantage, stalker, pretty handily.

Why is your stalker running around in the dungeon in his social identity? The fact that you don't get the benefits of social grace? I too was thinking about picking Perception as my social grace skill, but ultimately there's not much point. The time where Perception is most useful are the times where I wouldn't want to be in my social identity.

Quote:

Level 2: In addition to the usual Will save vs skill points, Unchained rogue gains evasion and a rogue talent. Stalker gets a vigilante talent instead. If the stalker was trying to mimic the rogue here, he would wind up getting a bigger payoff over time (since his one talent for evasion also grants the rogue advanced talent improved evasion, just not yet).

This is true, but at Level 2 doing so is a downgrade from the rogue; you have evasion but are down one talent.

Quote:

Level 5: Rogue gets rogue's edge, which is useful but mainly scales at higher levels, which we haven't counted in the stalker's favor so we won't for the rogue here either. The vigilante pulls out a huge reversal on the rogue by not only picking up a social talent (which by this points we likely have the prerequisites to get something more useful in the short term than the unlock) but also Startling Appearance, which is extremely good for the stalker.

I would disagree. Startling Appearance is nice when it triggers, but you only have one opportunity to trigger it per combat. Furthermore, the rules phrase, "caught unaware," is not well-defined by any of the vigilante abilities, so its usefulness is completely dependent upon how willing your GM is to A) let you get the drop on someone and B) decide what "being caught unaware means."

As a PFS player and GM, many of the scenarios are written in a way that they assume that combat starts as soon as you walk into the door, meaning that everyone is aware of everyone else, and in such instances startling appearance isn't all that useful. This isn't to say that startling appearance is terrible either; just that I think you're overvaluing it.

That said, I do think that the stalker is the best off of all three specializations in terms of being comparable to its target class.

[Wolfspirit]

Alexander Augunas wrote:

Why is your stalker running around in the dungeon in his social identity? The fact that you don't get the benefits of social grace? I too was thinking about picking Perception as my social grace skill, but ultimately there's not much point. The time where Perception is most useful are the times where I wouldn't want to be in my social identity.

I actually thought about this as well afterwards. I can just imagine the scene:

Batman: "Hey guys, hold up... I think that door might be trapped. Let me check it out."
<starts stripping out of his batsuit>
Wonder Woman: "Not that I'm really complaining Bruce... er... Batman, but why are you taking off your suit?"
Batman: <hopping on one foot to pull off his bat-tights> "Bruce Wayne is better at searching stuff than I am!"

[Thrawn007]

I actually ended up doing an entire adventure in social identity this weekend, except for one scene where I actually split off from the party got in my vigilante identity, and used the alternate identity to get back into a location I'd been thrown out of.

[Mark Seifter]

Alexander Augunas wrote:

Mark Seifter wrote:

As a social talent, social grace for +4 Perception is similar to trapfinding in some ways and far more useful than trapfinding in most cases (more likely to find the trap) until much higher levels, when social grace has scaled to add even more skills. Advantage, stalker, pretty handily.

Why is your stalker running around in the dungeon in his social identity? The fact that you don't get the benefits of social grace? I too was thinking about picking Perception as my social grace skill, but ultimately there's not much point. The time where Perception is most useful are the times where I wouldn't want to be in my social identity.

Just aligning stuff together for comparison's sake. In reality, social grace is even more powerful because of its flexibility; it's not only Perception but instead allows well over half of all skills as your choice.

[Thrawn007]

Mark Seifter wrote:

Just aligning stuff together for comparison's sake. In reality, social grace is even more powerful because of its flexibility; it's not only Perception but instead allows well over half of all skills as your choice.

The flexibility is awesome. It gets pretty much every important skill in the game.

Need knowledge checks?
Diplomacy?
Crafting or professions?
Spellcraft to identify items?
Linguistics to translate something or write legal matters?
Perception?
Survival?

The list goes on and on. However, then there is the other side...it only works in your social identity, which can vary it's usefulness based on the campaign, and how important "hiding identities" is to you thematically.

[Mark Seifter]

Thrawn007 wrote:

Mark Seifter wrote:

Just aligning stuff together for comparison's sake. In reality, social grace is even more powerful because of its flexibility; it's not only Perception but instead allows well over half of all skills as your choice.

The flexibility is awesome. It gets pretty much every important skill in the game.

Need knowledge checks?
Diplomacy?
Crafting or professions?
Spellcraft to identify items?
Linguistics to translate something or write legal matters?
Perception?
Survival?

The list goes on and on. However, then there is the other side...it only works in your social identity, which can vary it's usefulness based on the campaign, and how important "hiding identities" is to you thematically.

Heh, yeah. If you do Knowledges, you could pretend to be an "exposition fairy" NPC who follows the party around to research after they win the fights and sometimes pops out to mention facts.

[Thrawn007]

As I've said in a couple of threads, the two common uses that have developed among the groups I've played with or GMed for:

1) Pick a knowledge skill or diplomacy - use it for the "footwork" roles at the beginning of the scenario. Getting +4 there is almost like getting an extra level of info on a topic.

2) Take a craft or profession. Use it for +4 on day jobs after the scenario is over.

In both cases, social grace gets ignored during the actual scenario.

[Imbicatus]

Thrawn007 wrote:

As I've said in a couple of threads, the two common uses that have developed among the groups I've played with or GMed for:

1) Pick a knowledge skill or diplomacy - use it for the "footwork" roles at the beginning of the scenario. Getting +4 there is almost like getting an extra level of info on a topic.

2) Take a craft or profession. Use it for +4 on day jobs after the scenario is over.

In both cases, social grace gets ignored during the actual scenario.

I took Craft:Alchemy with mine. It serves double duty with both giving some info on alchemical items or equipment, and serves as a day job.

[Thrawn007]

Imbicatus wrote:

Thrawn007 wrote:

I took Craft:Alchemy with mine. It serves double duty with both giving some info on alchemical items or equipment, and serves as a day job.

Next to diplomacy (which can also serve double duty if needed), this as been the most popular choice I've seen.

[M1k31]

How does it work if you choose linguistics?

On another note, shouldn't it be compared to the extra 2 skill points per level? 20 skill points in 5 skills that can exceed your level in those skills at the time of acquisition vs 40 skill points that can each be chosen to apply to a separate skill... as well as applied to more skills, yet can only scale to your level.

Even at level 5 it seems like the rogue pulls ahead with 10 to the vigilantes 8... maybe give the vigilante's social grace an extra +1 on each skill that is already a class skill and the ability to convert a skill into a class skill(that then can be used in both forms)

[Thrawn007]

This is a competence bonus, not ranks. You wouldn't acquire any languages. However, if you have rolls to identify a language, or pick specific wording to go into a contract, or other uses of linguistics requiring a roll, you'd get +4 to the roll.

[Alexander Augunas]

M1k31 wrote:

How does it work if you choose linguistics?

You only get bonus languages for ranks, not bonuses. So you get a +4 bonus on checks to decipher stuff and forge documents, just like any other skill.

[Vrog Skyreaver]

I like social grace for UMD, Perception, Sense Motive, and Disguise.

[Imbicatus]

If you are going to be taking Case The Joint as a stalker, you really want social grace Knowledge (engineering) for extra re-rolls.

[ShieldLawrence]

Thrawn007 wrote:

This is a competence bonus, not ranks. You wouldn't acquire any languages. However, if you have rolls to identify a language, or pick specific wording to go into a contract, or other uses of linguistics requiring a roll, you'd get +4 to the roll.

It's actually a circumstance bonus and stacks with the more common competence bonus which is awesome.

[Zwordsman]

I've done fights and adventures in social form. They allow for it now, so aslong as your careful about who your with, and how you fight it can be good.

It can be pretty funny too if one had a warlock with the social simularcrum, and in a group with someone you dislike. You can attack them in vigilante mode while your copy runs around.

that being said.. that would be such a better spell. IU have never had spare talents to take it because of the spell talents..

but yeah, there isn't a reason not to go in social depending on the occasion. Even well respected folks gotta get their adventure on.