A mechanical crank that allows even the weakest person to pull the bow back.I am interested in the concept of stronger draw crossbows... but then we must consider that they just used mechanical systems ANYWAY...Tell me... Where do you think the energy to shoot the bolt comes from? What is generating the force that adds tension to the crossbow's string?
And what exactly is applying the force necessary to turn the crank? It isn't turning by itself, so what is it?
Could it be... The person's strength?
it doesn't matter how strong the person pulling the trigger is. The string is going to be X distance back regardless of how strong the person was loading it.
It does matter. The person must be strong enough to turn the crank. Admittedly, that is much easier and more effective than simply pulling the crossbow's string... Because it maximizes your strength. That's what cranks are designed to do. So, rather than not adding Str, crossbows should have a fixed (but upgradable) Str-modifier, just like longbows.
Because in the end, they are both doing the same thing. Maximizing the force the user adds to the projectile. That's why both those weapons hit further and harder than simply throwing the arrow.
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More to the point.
Who cares?
This is not a Medieval Combat Simulator.
That died out the second it was printed.
So to me if you want Mighty crossbows have at it.
More to the point.
Who cares?
The designers, apparently... Crossbows don't add Str-modifier to damage rolls because it "wouldn't be realistic".
Personally, I think it's stupid. I value fun and game balance far, far more than I do realism. Hell! I don't even care about realism! This is the game where a halfling can kill a titan by repeatedly kicking its toe!
I do care about consistency, though...
Firearms should add Str too. I'm strong and can press the trigger REAL hard.
that energy is transferred to the mechanism that releases the flint which creates a spark, you might make the gunpowder ignite quicker by a fraction of a second, but no meaningful increase in combat effectiveness from pulling the trigger hard.
Firearms should add Str too. I'm strong and can press the trigger REAL hard.
This is sort of the point I was trying to make about crossbows.
They have a predetermined distance that the string is pulled back to.
Once loaded, anyone can fire it.
With a bow, you can pull the string back farther, because YOU are the 'trigger'.
Crossbows, as far as I know, have only one device for holding the string in place before firing, so you either are able to load and fire it, or are not.
they aren't variable.
Of course, firearms with greater recoil require more strength to actually hold steady, so it wouldn't be too out there.
not really, as recoil isn't an issue with flintlocks
Firearms should add Str too. I'm strong and can press the trigger REAL hard.This is sort of the point I was trying to make about crossbows.
They have a predetermined distance that the string is pulled back to.
Once loaded, anyone can fire it.
With a bow, you can pull the string back farther, because YOU are the 'trigger'.
Crossbows, as far as I know, have only one device for holding the string in place before firing, so you either are able to load and fire it, or are not.
they aren't variable.
you can adjust the draw strength when you put the crossbow together (most were break-downable) by adjusting the cords binding the "bow" section.
please scroll to second image on page
It doesn't matter how strong you are, the string goes to the same spot every time, and anyone can pull the trigger.
Strength won't affect crossbow damage unless the design has multiple spots to pull the string back to, determined by STR.
please scroll to second image on page
It doesn't matter how strong you are, the string goes to the same spot every time, and anyone can pull the trigger.
Strength won't affect crossbow damage unless the design has multiple spots to pull the string back to, determined by STR.
as has been mentioned most people only claim it effects load speed and should infer a bonus to damage.
Firearms should add Str too. I'm strong and can press the trigger REAL hard.This is sort of the point I was trying to make about crossbows.
Except it isn't the same.
The bullet's energy comes from the gunpowder explosion. The bolt's energy literally comes from the crossbowman's muscles, only he's using a crank as an intermediary to maximize the effectiveness of his efforts.
Whether it is loaded by a STR 18 or STR 12 person doesn't matter.
It does matter if Str 12 is not enough to turn the crank. Once you cock the crossbow, it's irrelevant who pulls the trigger, but the Str modifier would represent the "energy" transferred from whoever cocked the crossbow to the bolt.
Whether it is loaded by a STR 18 or STR 12 person doesn't matter.It does matter if Str 12 is not enough to turn the crank. Once you cock the crossbow, it's irrelevant who pulls the trigger, but the Str modifier would represent the "energy" transferred from whoever cocked the crossbow to the bolt.
My point, obviously, was that the person loading the crossbow CAN'T affect the damage of the crossbow. It's all or nothing.
You either CAN load it by placing the string, or you CAN'T.
The force applied to the bolt is determined by the design of the weapon, not the fact that Arnold is firing it, rather than Urkel.
The trigger mechanism releases the string from a fixed point. The distance traveled and the force imparted by the crossbow is a fixed equation, not affected by the users strength.
IF you design a crossbow that requires a higher strength to LOAD, that's something entirely different. If you REQUIRE a STR 18 to pull that string back, STR 17 and less can't use it at all.
Agreed?
Of course, firearms with greater recoil require more strength to actually hold steady, so it wouldn't be too out there.not really, as recoil isn't an issue with flintlocksHow?
Sure you don't have to worry about aiming followup shot [unless you have a means of reloading as a free or swift action] in the same round, but if you lack sufficient strength to properly shoot a firearm of any type that thing is knocking you prone and it's NOT the good kind for shooting [probably a -2 or -4 penalty for a shot fired in the same round as being knocked over by your firearm.]
Probably some non-lethal damage to your body for failing to support the weapon properly as well.
the mass of the gun itself resists the force of the shot long enough for the bullet to exit before significant change in direction occurs.
a gun that can knock you prone will do so regardless of your strength as you won't have enough mass to resist it, it will simply lift you off your feet(unless you're shooting up or something).
strength is merely needed to control the recoil so that you can easily adjust for it.
Whether it is loaded by a STR 18 or STR 12 person doesn't matter.It does matter if Str 12 is not enough to turn the crank. Once you cock the crossbow, it's irrelevant who pulls the trigger, but the Str modifier would represent the "energy" transferred from whoever cocked the crossbow to the bolt.My point, obviously, was that the person loading the crossbow CAN'T affect the damage of the crossbow. It's all or nothing.
You either CAN load it by placing the string, or you CAN'T.
The force applied to the bolt is determined by the design of the weapon, not the fact that Arnold is firing it, rather than Urkel.
The trigger mechanism releases the string from a fixed point. The distance traveled and the force imparted by the crossbow is a fixed equation, not affected by the users strength.
IF you design a crossbow that requires a higher strength to LOAD, that's something entirely different. If you REQUIRE a STR 18 to pull that string back, STR 17 and less can't use it at all.
Agreed?
they could if they used mechanisms that concentrated your force and gave you advantage such as a crank or a lever, however these slow you down.
they could if they used mechanisms that concentrated your force and gave you advantage such as a crank or a lever, however these slow you down.Whether it is loaded by a STR 18 or STR 12 person doesn't matter.It does matter if Str 12 is not enough to turn the crank. Once you cock the crossbow, it's irrelevant who pulls the trigger, but the Str modifier would represent the "energy" transferred from whoever cocked the crossbow to the bolt.My point, obviously, was that the person loading the crossbow CAN'T affect the damage of the crossbow. It's all or nothing.
You either CAN load it by placing the string, or you CAN'T.
The force applied to the bolt is determined by the design of the weapon, not the fact that Arnold is firing it, rather than Urkel.
The trigger mechanism releases the string from a fixed point. The distance traveled and the force imparted by the crossbow is a fixed equation, not affected by the users strength.
IF you design a crossbow that requires a higher strength to LOAD, that's something entirely different. If you REQUIRE a STR 18 to pull that string back, STR 17 and less can't use it at all.
Agreed?
Agreed.
This is why I don't have STR be a factor in crossbow damage in my games.
The only change I would make to crossbows would be to increase their base damage. Maybe give them a bonus to penetrate armor, cause that's kinda what they were good at. :D
+2 maybe? +4 might be a bit much.
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So, apropos to the thread title, martials do need better things, and for reasons that don't have to do with real-world crossbow mechanics?
My point, obviously, was that the person loading the crossbow CAN'T affect the damage of the crossbow. It's all or nothing.
You either CAN load it by placing the string, or you CAN'T.
True... Though I don't know if it'd be possible to make a crossbow with an adjustable crank that can be cocked in different position for greater or lower strength (IRL, I suppose there is no point to it, as crossbows would be designed to most crossbowmen have similar strength, so all the designer has to do is craft an weapon who can use the most of the average crossbowman's strength, but in the world of Pathfinder, where Strength can vary widely and instantaneously, it'd make sense).
Also... Magic.
Just tackle the "Adaptive" enhancement to crossbows and voilà!
The force applied to the bolt is determined by the design of the weapon, not the fact that Arnold is firing it, rather than Urkel.
The trigger mechanism releases the string from a fixed point. The distance traveled and the force imparted by the crossbow is a fixed equation, not affected by the users strength.
IF you design a crossbow that requires a higher strength to LOAD, that's something entirely different. If you REQUIRE a STR 18 to pull that string back, STR 17 and less can't use it at all.
Agreed?
True. The Strength modifier to damage would be "placed" on the bolt during the reload action, not the shoot action. Still, a Strength modifier should be added, only it would be the one of the person who reloaded the crossbow, rather than the shooter's.
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Since Path of War from Dreamscarred Press and the Stamina system from Pathfinder Unchained are both regularly considered as potential fixes to martial/caster disparity, I put together a homebrew thread that includes a document that presents rules to combine the two and equalize martial/caster performance a bit. It's presented as a general subsystem that can be easily added to pretty much any campaign and applies universally.
My point, obviously, was that the person loading the crossbow CAN'T affect the damage of the crossbow. It's all or nothing.
You either CAN load it by placing the string, or you CAN'T.
True... Though I don't know if it'd be possible to make a crossbow with an adjustable crank that can be cocked in different position for greater or lower strength (IRL, I suppose there is no point to it, as crossbows would be designed to most crossbowmen have similar strength, so all the designer has to do is craft an weapon who can use the most of the average crossbowman's strength, but in the world of Pathfinder, where Strength can vary widely and instantaneously, it'd make sense).
Also... Magic.
Just tackle the "Adaptive" enhancement to crossbows and voilà!
True. The Strength modifier to damage would be "placed" on the bolt during the reload action, not the shoot action. Still, a Strength modifier should be added, only it would be the one of the person who reloaded the crossbow, rather than the shooter's.The force applied to the bolt is determined by the design of the weapon, not the fact that Arnold is firing it, rather than Urkel.
The trigger mechanism releases the string from a fixed point. The distance traveled and the force imparted by the crossbow is a fixed equation, not affected by the users strength.
IF you design a crossbow that requires a higher strength to LOAD, that's something entirely different. If you REQUIRE a STR 18 to pull that string back, STR 17 and less can't use it at all.
Agreed?
You're simplifying what strength means to a crossbow.
The poundage of a crossbow can be altered, just like it can be for a bow. So you CAN pull a crossbow back to the same point, and it have different amounts of penetrating power.
So, you are ignoring 'for a given point' AND 'At a given POwer' and arguing just 'at a given point'.
Whereas the crossbow argument is NOT that. THe crossbow argument is 'For a given poundage, you can reload faster or slower depending on your strength.' Assuming the 'point' remains static.
So, I'm really not at all sure where this argument comes from. Trying to argue that someone using a 300 lb xbow with a 12 str can crank it back as fast as someone with an 18 Strength to the exact same point is totally belittling the superior power of mr 18 Str.
Once it's there...sure, the bolt is completely equal, the same amount of energy is invested regardless of who hits the trigger. At which 18 Str 10 Dex guy hands it off to 10 Str 18 Dex guy, who chortles and drives it up the orc's eyeball at fifty paces. They swap and do it again.
==Aelryinth
My point, obviously, was that the person loading the crossbow CAN'T affect the damage of the crossbow. It's all or nothing.
You either CAN load it by placing the string, or you CAN'T.
True... Though I don't know if it'd be possible to make a crossbow with an adjustable crank that can be cocked in different position for greater or lower strength (IRL, I suppose there is no point to it, as crossbows would be designed to most crossbowmen have similar strength, so all the designer has to do is craft an weapon who can use the most of the average crossbowman's strength, but in the world of Pathfinder, where Strength can vary widely and instantaneously, it'd make sense).
Also... Magic.
Just tackle the "Adaptive" enhancement to crossbows and voilà!
True. The Strength modifier to damage would be "placed" on the bolt during the reload action, not the shoot action. Still, a Strength modifier should be added, only it would be the one of the person who reloaded the crossbow, rather than the shooter's.The force applied to the bolt is determined by the design of the weapon, not the fact that Arnold is firing it, rather than Urkel.
The trigger mechanism releases the string from a fixed point. The distance traveled and the force imparted by the crossbow is a fixed equation, not affected by the users strength.
IF you design a crossbow that requires a higher strength to LOAD, that's something entirely different. If you REQUIRE a STR 18 to pull that string back, STR 17 and less can't use it at all.
Agreed?
If it's Adaptive, it'll change force to whoever is holding it.
So, this whole argument would be moot. it would take everyone the same amount of time to reload an adaptive crossbow, because it would always be at their base Str. Handing it over to another person would just make it set to the new person's strength.
5E allows xbows and bows the same str, dmg and rate of fire in the interests of flavor and balance, right?
==Aelyinth
Was there not a time when crossbows ignored a certain amount of armor? Maybe back in 2nd ed?
That is something worth considering if you want to come up with new rules for crossbows...
Came out first in the Birthright rules. Crossbows gained +2 to hit against Armors greater then AC 5.
OF course, back then you had Crossbows of Speed which doubled your firing rate...
==Aelryinth
Was there not a time when crossbows ignored a certain amount of armor? Maybe back in 2nd ed?
That is something worth considering if you want to come up with new rules for crossbows...
Came out first in the Birthright rules. Crossbows gained +2 to hit against Armors greater then AC 5.
OF course, back then you had Crossbows of Speed which doubled your firing rate...
==Aelryinth
I miss the older versions sometimes...
Back when Elf was a class... man that was sweet.
Basic is easy to approximate.
Elf (Racial Class)
HD: d6
BAB: 3/4
Skill Points: 4 + Int per level.
Skills: Craft, Profession, Survival, Perform (any), Knowledge (any), Stealth, Perception, +2 of choice.
Weapons: Simple weapons, + all Elven weapons, longbow, longspear, scimitar and rapier.
Armor: Light and Medium Armor.
Starting Languages: Elf, Common, Dwarven, Gnome, Gnoll, Goblin, Halfling, Orc. And maybe Fey? + Int.
Saves: As Ranger.
Spells: The Elf gains spellcasting as a Bard of Equal level, including the ability to cast in armor. However, instead of Bardic spells, the Elf chooses to Prepare Spells as a Wizard and use the Wizard class list (using Spells Known), or Spontaneously Cast spells as a sorcerer using the Wizard class list (just like a Bard). Treat the Elf as if she has the Elven Bloodline if casting as a Sorcerer for determining bonus Spells Known.
At 1st level, Elves pick a Favored Terrain and gain the bonuses from it just like a ranger. Their natural coloration tends to reflect their favored terrain.
Elves gain a +1 Th with bows and swords to reflect many years of study in their racial weapons. 'Wilder' elves tend to prefer the scimitar and its druidic ties, 'civilized' elves tend to prefer the longsword. Likewise, 'wilder' elves tend to prefer bloodline magic, and civilized elves wizardry.
========
If you want to Pathfinderize it, you could increase their low light vision, Favored Terrain bonuses, give them a favored enemy or two, and perhaps add an extra skill and skill point as they level up. Around 10 or so, they could gain bonus Mithral Heavy Armor Prof and casting ability to reflect their racial capstone in Elven Plate, and perhaps only 2 hp/level after that point, reflecting the fact that they are a powerfully magical but frail race, and base racial classes aren't as strong in the long run as true classes.
==Aelryinth
You're simplifying what strength means to a crossbow.
The poundage of a crossbow can be altered, just like it can be for a bow. So you CAN pull a crossbow back to the same point, and it have different amounts of penetrating power.
So, you are ignoring 'for a given point' AND 'At a given POwer' and arguing just 'at a given point'.
Whereas the crossbow argument is NOT that. THe crossbow argument is 'For a given poundage, you can reload faster or slower depending on your strength.' Assuming the 'point' remains static.
So, I'm really not at all sure where this argument comes from. Trying to argue that someone using a 300 lb xbow with a 12 str can crank it back as fast as someone with an 18 Strength to the exact same point is totally belittling the superior power of mr 18 Str.
Once it's there...sure, the bolt is completely equal, the same amount of energy is invested regardless of who hits the trigger. At which 18 Str 10 Dex guy hands it off to 10 Str 18 Dex guy, who chortles and drives it up the orc's eyeball at fifty paces. They swap and do it again.
I have no idea what exactly you're arguing...
My point is: The Str modifier to damage is how the game mechanics represent the energy transferred from the shooter to the projectile. Since the energy that moves the bolt comes from its shooter (or "reloader", whatever), then the "reloaders" Strength modifier should be added to the crossbow damage roll.
Whether this is a fixed amount (e.g.: "only people with Strength modifier +4 can reload this crossbow and it always adds a +4 to damage rolls") is irrelevant to my argument.
(Also, theoretically, there could be a minimum Strength requirement to be able to reload the crossbow and shoot at full damage, since the tension on the string would make it harder and harder to crank the crossbow... But that would be making the game needlessly complicated, IMO).
5E allows xbows and bows the same str, dmg and rate of fire in the interests of flavor and balance, right?
I have no idea. I play a little 5E on occasion, but no one in the group uses crossbows. I also don't see how that is relevant to the discussion.
was more referring to Alexd.
Having an 'absolute strength to reload' is kinda foreign to the very design of a crossbow...slower reloads make more sense.
But if you rule it that way...sure, reloader's strength all the way, UNLESS you are using Adaptive, which adapts itself to whoever is using it, not just reloading it.
==Aelryinth
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Well, spellcasters get a constant flood of new cool things. Why is it so verboten to occasionally give non-spellcasters cool new things?
And on the rare occasions that they do give non-spellcasters cool new things, why do they immediately follow it up in that same supplement with a spell that lets spellcasters do that same cool new thing, only several levels earlier, more effectively, and generally scaling with level?
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Well, spellcasters get a constant flood of new cool things. Why is it so verboten to occasionally give non-spellcasters cool new things?
This!
And on the rare occasions that they do give non-spellcasters cool new things, why do they immediately follow it up in that same supplement with a spell that lets spellcasters do that same cool new thing, only several levels earlier, more effectively, and generally scaling with level?
I just had to quote it and separate both parts so it is less likely that one of them is missed by skimming.
Those two things hit it on the head exactly.
was more referring to Alexd.
Having an 'absolute strength to reload' is kinda foreign to the very design of a crossbow...slower reloads make more sense.
But if you rule it that way...sure, reloader's strength all the way, UNLESS you are using Adaptive, which adapts itself to whoever is using it, not just reloading it.
==Aelryinth
Meh, I use the RAW for crossbows, was just spitballing with everyone else.
If I was to implement changes, I would just bump up damage, and give them a bonus vs armor.
I think bringing STR into it is silly, tbh.
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Well, spellcasters get a constant flood of new cool things. Why is it so verboten to occasionally give non-spellcasters cool new things?
And on the rare occasions that they do give non-spellcasters cool new things, why do they immediately follow it up in that same supplement with a spell that lets spellcasters do that same cool new thing, only several levels earlier, more effectively, and generally scaling with level?
Don't forget that spell-caster options are far less likely to be Crane Winged into oblivion.
Don't forget that spell-caster options are far less likely to be Crane Winged into oblivion.Well, spellcasters get a constant flood of new cool things. Why is it so verboten to occasionally give non-spellcasters cool new things?
And on the rare occasions that they do give non-spellcasters cool new things, why do they immediately follow it up in that same supplement with a spell that lets spellcasters do that same cool new thing, only several levels earlier, more effectively, and generally scaling with level?
Has ANY casting option been hit with the nerf bat as hard as Crane Wing? I get their reasoning, but I'm STILL salty about that.
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Has ANY casting option been hit with the nerf bat as hard as Crane Wing? I get their reasoning, but I'm STILL salty about that.Don't forget that spell-caster options are far less likely to be Crane Winged into oblivion.Well, spellcasters get a constant flood of new cool things. Why is it so verboten to occasionally give non-spellcasters cool new things?
And on the rare occasions that they do give non-spellcasters cool new things, why do they immediately follow it up in that same supplement with a spell that lets spellcasters do that same cool new thing, only several levels earlier, more effectively, and generally scaling with level?
Divine Protection. But that's because it was made available to those filthy martials... XD.
I know that english longbows were deadlier, faster and shoot farther than crossbows.
Then LIGHT crossbows.
Heavy crossbows blew them away in power. That's why H Crossbows existed.
And 'deadlier' is relative. Longbow arrows at range could not get through late generation plate armor any better then crossbows could. You basically needed a solid hit at nigh point blank range with a bodkin point to have a chance at penetration past the 1300's or so.
Oh, and those highly trained longbowmen were also GREAT bandits and poachers! Heh.
==Aelryinth
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This whole bow thing brings back memories.
Good times.
Good times.