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Yeah, pretty much what Thrawn007 and Tuyena said. Bolts where the major change and the changes meant I didn't have to test them. Before the bolts could power through low level resistances but with the dramatically lower damage, even multiple attacks end up dealing less overall damage. In essence, the player is forced to take more feats to gain extra attacks just to end up with a lower total damage than before.
Pretty much a step back. To make it viable the damage has to go up and/or a resistance bypass ability has to be added.
Let's also mention too as much as we all want Mystic Bolts to be awesome, it alone isn't going to contribute to meaningful spell caster talent sacrifices, you may *delay* your spellcasting options, but you're not going to abandon them for Mystic Bolts because it and all other talents just aren't strong enough by comparison.
Mystic Bolts needs to be good. But so too do the other Warlock talents, or the class will just be a 6 level spell caster with Mystic Bolts and Arcane Striker and that's it. Which if that's what's desired, then so be it, I will probably play one at some point.
But if the goal was to make this in-between caster who could sacrifice spell levels and have meaningful choice available to him, then we're a long ways off.
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Maybe change from 1d6 + one every four levels, to one every three levels.
Another option might be that they can use spell levels in order to temporarily change the damage type or to increase the power. Say they took cold damage for their talent, they could use a fireball spell to change the damage type, doing fire damage for the next three rounds. After that, it reverts to its normal damage type, rather than having to take yet another talent.)
To increase the power, it might depend on the spell level used. A 1st level slot might give you a +1 bonus to hit with the attacks. A 2nd level slot might allow the bolts to avoid cover, a 3rd level slot might cause the bolts to ignore the first 5 points of DR, etc.
Maybe change from 1d6 + one every four levels, to one every three levels.
That really wouldn't make a dent. That means that at 15th level, you do a whole 1d6 vs a resistance 5 or 1d6-5 vs resist 10. That's really super, uber bad. At 1d6+level, a 5th you get a straight 1d6 vs resist 5. At least that'd keep you at cantrip damage.
Another option might be that they can use spell levels in order to temporarily change the damage type or to increase the power. Say they took cold damage for their talent, they could use a fireball spell to change the damage type, doing fire damage for the next three rounds. After that, it reverts to its normal damage type, rather than having to take yet another talent.)
Even taking all the talents for casting, the class really doesn't have spells to spare. I think they could use them better than to buff bolts temporarily.
For instance, you'd trade a fireball, lightning bolt, vampiric touch, haste, Heroism ect for a DR 5 reduction? I'd like to see a way through resistances but that seems like one hell of a price.
Still hoping there will be some random mytic bolt focus gloves or pendant (like aomf) that have specialty rules that remove some amount of resistance while adding damage as normal enhancments.
Though it might be weird to make an item like that specifically and only for one class ever.
It wouldn't have to be only usable by them. Make it add to rays and mystic bolts and everyone can join the fun.
It wouldn't have to be only usable by them. Make it add to rays and mystic bolts and everyone can join the fun.Still hoping there will be some random mytic bolt focus gloves or pendant (like aomf) that have specialty rules that remove some amount of resistance while adding damage as normal enhancments.
Though it might be weird to make an item like that specifically and only for one class ever.
Would love that. though I see the chances of that happening less sadly.. but it would be great if they at least did it for mystic bolt.. cause then you can homerule it to apply to elemental rays.
There are so few rays, and they seem weaker, that I think it might be ok.. Although other than burning ray I can't actually think of any labeled ray elemental spells.
Ray of frost. Polar ray. Contagious Flame. Elemental Assessor. Firebrand. Heatstroke (maybe). Hellfire Ray. Scorching Ray.
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That really wouldn't make a dent. That means that at 15th level, you do a whole 1d6 vs a resistance 5 or 1d6-5 vs resist 10. That's really super, uber bad. At 1d6+level, a 5th you get a straight 1d6 vs resist 5. At least that'd keep you at cantrip damage.
Sorry, I meant rather than 1d6 + 1 every 3 levels, 1d6 + 1d6 every 3 levels.
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We've talked internally about whether we want to structure the warlock differently as well. We didn't for now because we want to compare the results of the new-style zealot to the old-style warlock and see what people gravitate toward.
My spouse and I are building two new vigilantes to play on Sunday, and she was torn between the Warlock and Zealot. Based on the current state of both classes, she is heavily leaning Celestial Zealot, primarily due to the Divine power change and Smite.
That really wouldn't make a dent. That means that at 15th level, you do a whole 1d6 vs a resistance 5 or 1d6-5 vs resist 10. That's really super, uber bad. At 1d6+level, a 5th you get a straight 1d6 vs resist 5. At least that'd keep you at cantrip damage.Sorry, I meant rather than 1d6 + 1 every 3 levels, 1d6 + 1d6 every 3 levels.
That would be better but in pathfinder static modifiers tend to be your bread and butter. It wouldn't be much different than adding level on average. It'd be an interesting experiment to try but I think resistance would still prove to be a thorn in it's side. Weapon users damage tends to go up as they level but resistances tend to be more common and have larger totals as you level so at best your damage tends to stagnate or even drop as a bolter levels.
To have a bolter be a truly viable option, there has to be a resistance bypass. Once that's figured out, an appropriate damage progression can then be figured out.
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That really wouldn't make a dent. That means that at 15th level, you do a whole 1d6 vs a resistance 5 or 1d6-5 vs resist 10. That's really super, uber bad. At 1d6+level, a 5th you get a straight 1d6 vs resist 5. At least that'd keep you at cantrip damage.Sorry, I meant rather than 1d6 + 1 every 3 levels, 1d6 + 1d6 every 3 levels.That would be better but in pathfinder static modifiers tend to be your bread and butter. It wouldn't be much different than adding level on average. It'd be an interesting experiment to try but I think resistance would still prove to be a thorn in it's side. Weapon users damage tends to go up as they level but resistances tend to be more common and have larger totals as you level so at best your damage tends to stagnate or even drop as a bolter levels.
To have a bolter be a truly viable option, there has to be a resistance bypass. Once that's figured out, an appropriate damage progression can then be figured out.
Or to go into another class after 4th level.. that fixes the whole useless thing right away.. even with Fighter..... WITH FIGHTER.
Or to go into another class after 4th level.. that fixes the whole useless thing right away.. even with Fighter..... WITH FIGHTER.That really wouldn't make a dent. That means that at 15th level, you do a whole 1d6 vs a resistance 5 or 1d6-5 vs resist 10. That's really super, uber bad. At 1d6+level, a 5th you get a straight 1d6 vs resist 5. At least that'd keep you at cantrip damage.Sorry, I meant rather than 1d6 + 1 every 3 levels, 1d6 + 1d6 every 3 levels.That would be better but in pathfinder static modifiers tend to be your bread and butter. It wouldn't be much different than adding level on average. It'd be an interesting experiment to try but I think resistance would still prove to be a thorn in it's side. Weapon users damage tends to go up as they level but resistances tend to be more common and have larger totals as you level so at best your damage tends to stagnate or even drop as a bolter levels.
To have a bolter be a truly viable option, there has to be a resistance bypass. Once that's figured out, an appropriate damage progression can then be figured out.
That doesn't even help greatly with it's elemental damage. You can get more damage and attacks but resistance is still taking a huge chunk out. A simple 2nd level spell stops this character in it's tracks.
The damage would equate to anywhere from 8-11 more damage and have some odd combinations with your Plethora of feats, but I was making a point. I could have been mean and Used Paladin.. or Cavalier.. or Ranger... yadda yadda.
Yes the "The damage would equate to anywhere from 8-11 more damage". Now I'm cast Resist Energy 9a 2nd level spell) at 7th level and take 20 points off each hit. Yadda yadda "doesn't even help greatly with it's elemental damage". That was the point 'I' was making, that it didn't fix anything. Elemental damage this small without a way to bypass resistance of just awful.
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Right I didn't say you were wrong. I was emphasizing the fact that damage could easily but upped with classes outside of the main class.. which is bad. Sure they wouldnt bypass immunity but the damage would actually be viable or deal SOME damage at comparable levels to full Warlock.
If you were saying those other classes didnt help much I believe another poster basically showed with difference in damage is quite high with the others.. I simply didnt want to reiterate the fact things like Greater Bane and Divine Power were the solutions.. it didn't justify Mystic Bolts being so bad.
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Right I didn't say you were wrong. I was emphasizing the fact that damage could easily but upped with classes outside of the main class.. which is bad. Sure they wouldnt bypass immunity but the damage would actually be viable or deal SOME damage at comparable levels to full Warlock.
If you were saying those other classes didnt help much I believe another poster basically showed with difference in damage is quite high with the others.. I simply didnt want to reiterate the fact things like Greater Bane and Divine Power were the solutions.. it didn't justify Mystic Bolts being so bad.
Oh, I've said several times that as-is the vigilante's claim to fame is that it's a dip class for 1-4th levels. Almost anything + vigilante is better than just vigilante. That's just the way it is. For example, the best vigilante bomb build is 2 levels of vigilante and then go alchemist.
Basicaly I was objecting to "that fixes the whole useless thing right away" comment. It's better than the base class but it still grinds to a halt if someone casts a second level spell and that's sad... :P
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Oh, I've said several times that as-is the vigilante's claim to fame is that it's a dip class for 1-4th levels. Almost anything + vigilante is better than just vigilante. That's just the way it is. For example, the best vigilante bomb build is 2 levels of vigilante and then go alchemist.
Basicaly I was objecting to "that fixes the whole useless thing right away" comment. It's better than the base class but it still grinds to a halt if someone casts a second level spell and that's sad... :P
Just played a Zealot Vigilante this weekend (PFS) and agree. We need to make the class something that you will want to play and not just dip in.