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The more I look at these two classes the more I start thinking "should the divine power be arcane power for the warlock." I mean for some reason they don't fit the zealot, who is a religious fighter, well.
What I was thinking they should do instead is maybe allow the zealot their own type of inquisitions (seeing how they wanna use the inquisitor spell list so badly) and give the warlock his own source of power in the beginning that allows a they could possibly give him a bonus spell to cast (like a cleric but with arcane magic instead)
Well there's my two cents what do y'all think
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here is an example i thought of were:
Warlock
Abyssal
You have signed a contract with a Demon to help you fight your battle against though who you believe done you wrong. Selecting this Power have you detect as evil along with your current alignment.
Claws or Maw: Through your contact with Demons, you start to manifest different aspect of them. At 1st level you make the choice of a natural attack, claws or a bite, and treat them as a primary attack. (once chosen you cannot change.) these does 1d6 (1d4 if small) plus you strength modifer. At 4th lvl these are consider magical for purpose of DR. At 7th lvl These attack goes up one die in size. At 10th these Can be given the flaming weapon property doing an extra 1d6 of fire damage. this ability may be used 3+int mod.
Bonus spell per level: Cause fear (1st), Bull's Strength (4th)*, rage (8th)*, etc, etc,
* may cast without corresponding Talent
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Thematically I disagree... the Zealot, whose name is not exactly a good description of what the class is anymore, acts as a divine sorcerer. It even has Charisma-based casting. So divine sorcerer bloodlines aren't much of a stretch.
The Warlock has a spellbook and learns magic by studying; she's got the Arcanist-type spellcasting and is an Int-based caster as well. I don't think a bloodlines or arcane power feature makes much thematic sense for the Warlock as a result.
They haven't seemed too wedded to the inquisitor spell list and the latest playtest document pulled them further away from being an inquisitor, so I don't know that the inquisitor comparison is terribly valid at this point. In my playtesting, my Zealot doesn't have a clear combat analog--he's sort of a paladin, but with the Hunter-style spellcasting, and the ability to turn invisible several times a day. It's actually a pretty unique character, and I like a lot of it. Even if I think the class needs more conventional spellcasting progression. Grr. That still sucks.
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Thematically I disagree... the Zealot, whose name is not exactly a good description of what the class is anymore, acts as a divine sorcerer. It even has Charisma-based casting. So divine sorcerer bloodlines aren't much of a stretch.
The Warlock has a spellbook and learns magic by studying; she's got the Arcanist-type spellcasting and is an Int-based caster as well. I don't think a bloodlines or arcane power feature makes much thematic sense for the Warlock as a result.
They haven't seemed too wedded to the inquisitor spell list and the latest playtest document pulled them further away from being an inquisitor, so I don't know that the inquisitor comparison is terribly valid at this point. In my playtesting, my Zealot doesn't have a clear combat analog--he's sort of a paladin, but with the Hunter-style spellcasting, and the ability to turn invisible several times a day. It's actually a pretty unique character, and I like a lot of it. Even if I think the class needs more conventional spellcasting progression. Grr. That still sucks.
The fact that it called a zealot though they should keep along those lines. As for the warlock, I always picture them giving away their soul(not literally in some cases) to gain there magical power not by studying a book like a wizard.
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here what i thought they should do for the zealot to fit the namesake better:
Zealot
Revenge (for a worshiper of Calistria)
People had wrong you in the past and now with the help of your deity you can now deal retribution to them and all who deserves it
Bonus skill: Intimidate (gains a +1 per three Zealot lvl)
Hatred Strike: At 1st level, as a standard action you may appoint a opponent as the target of your hatred and vengeance. you gain a +1 bonus to attack and damage roll. This damage increase for every 3 zealot vigilante level you possess (Max +7 at level 18). this ability may be used 3+your charisma modifier.
Final Payback: At 8th level, your control over our hatred to those who wrong you has improved. Upon a Successful hit against the target of your hatred strike you may cause the attack to be an automatic critical hit. you may use this ability once a day at 8th level and once more every 4 level after (total of 5/day at level 20).
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I think the Zealot gaining a divine form of Bloodline isn't a bad thing.
That being said, the "missing factor" is largely that they have to burn half their Talents just getting access to their Spells.
If the caster Specializations got 1-2 basic abilities and all 10 Talents, then they'd be pretty decent.
The whole "arcane gets Bloodlines" thing is kinda done to death now - at least 4 classes can gain Bloodlines without the use of VMC (Sorcerer and Bloodrager naturally, and Magus & Arcanist can gain full Bloodlines through archetypes).
I say keep the Bloodline far away from the Warlock.
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I still think the Warlock and Zealot should be folded into a specialization based on the Mystic Theurge, but it looks like the chances of that happening are pretty slim.
SO
Assuming that the Warlock and Zealot are to be kept separate, I like the idea of the Zealot being a spontaneous Divine caster with a faux-Bloodline and natural Spellcasting. That alone is enough to justify having only Talents and no other real abilities beyond what the base Vigilante grants.
On the flip side, the Warlock should probably be given a bit of a look-over as to what it's theme should be.
Right now, Warlocks gaining Mystic Bolts is a way for the Pathfinder Warlock to mimic the 3.5 Warlock; this could be made a natural ability of the Class, in addition to spellcasting.
The Warlock also gains a few Shadow-based abilities, which makes it look like the Warlock is meant to be a Shadowdancer in a ways (which is kinda cool but also a disappointment - Shadowdancers aren't casters, and their abilities, while supernatural, play on the martial abilities heavily). There could be more abilities which would let the Warlock slowly become a Shadowdancer, which would let players have a Shadowdancer from lv1 onward.
There should probably ALSO be tons of abilities like Ranged Ledgerdemain, Tricky Spells, etc. that turn the Warlock into a base-class form of the Arcane Trickster. The fact that the base Vigilante in its Social Persona is a sneaky/stealthy character and very likely a master of disguise would only further help make it a suped-up Arcane Trickster.
Right now, the Warlock plays like a blaster-caster, but more focus should probably be given on making it a sneaky mage instead.
And since the Warlock and Zealot would gain natural spellcasting progression, the Martials should also gain standard abilities as they level.
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I think the Zealot gaining a divine form of Bloodline isn't a bad thing.
That being said, the "missing factor" is largely that they have to burn half their Talents just getting access to their Spells.
If the caster Specializations got 1-2 basic abilities and all 10 Talents, then they'd be pretty decent.
The whole "arcane gets Bloodlines" thing is kinda done to death now - at least 4 classes can gain Bloodlines without the use of VMC (Sorcerer and Bloodrager naturally, and Magus & Arcanist can gain full Bloodlines through archetypes).
I say keep the Bloodline far away from the Warlock.
Aww But im not saying give them bloodlines im saying give them contracts, something thats good and bad at the same time, i mean make it a little more powerful than what i put originally but also give it a reprocussion (like the kinnetist burn). And as for there spells being there base ability i say just make them a talent you can take and have your contract give you a base ability. Sorry but spels are not the only thing that equal magic user
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I still think the Warlock and Zealot should be folded into a specialization based on the Mystic Theurge, but it looks like the chances of that happening are pretty slim.
SO
Assuming that the Warlock and Zealot are to be kept separate, I like the idea of the Zealot being a spontaneous Divine caster with a faux-Bloodline and natural Spellcasting. That alone is enough to justify having only Talents and no other real abilities beyond what the base Vigilante grants.
On the flip side, the Warlock should probably be given a bit of a look-over as to what it's theme should be.
Right now, Warlocks gaining Mystic Bolts is a way for the Pathfinder Warlock to mimic the 3.5 Warlock; this could be made a natural ability of the Class, in addition to spellcasting.
The Warlock also gains a few Shadow-based abilities, which makes it look like the Warlock is meant to be a Shadowdancer in a ways (which is kinda cool but also a disappointment - Shadowdancers aren't casters, and their abilities, while supernatural, play on the martial abilities heavily). There could be more abilities which would let the Warlock slowly become a Shadowdancer, which would let players have a Shadowdancer from lv1 onward.
There should probably ALSO be tons of abilities like Ranged Ledgerdemain, Tricky Spells, etc. that turn the Warlock into a base-class form of the Arcane Trickster. The fact that the base Vigilante in its Social...
I mean don't get me wrong i love the bloodline thing they gave it, especially the fey one, but i have friends who agree with me that doesn't scream Zealot.
As for the warlock, talents based off the prestige classes sound like a great idea but i was really hoping for something that was completely it own thing, like the magus and alchemist, instead of being a giant cookie mad with random abilities from other classes.
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If any set of abilities really screams "Zealot!", I think the Inquisitor's set of abilities does. That said, I don't think anyone wants this to be a carbon copy of the Inquisitor. If it was, why not just play that?
Don't get too hung up on the name, it's not going to always reflect the design goals behind the class. You shouldn't design a class based on your conceptions of the name alone.
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Why not have it where you get access to 1st and 2nd level spells at the start and two talents to allow 3/4 (@6th level)and 5/6 level spells (@12th) later.
Change the level that they get access to the spells and allow for being able to use the next level spell if you have a bonus spell
(3rd/6th/9th/12th/15th). Also, not allow the use of spell trigger items of that spell level unless they have the talent. (Can UMD if they have the skill)
Warlock/Zealot Vigilante Spells Known
Level 0 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th 6th
1st 4 2 — — — — —
2nd 5 3 — — — — —
3rd 6 4 1* — — — —
4th 6 4 2 — — — —
5th 6 4 3 — — — —
6th 6 4 4 1* — — —
7th 6 5 4 2 — — —
8th 6 5 4 3 — — —
9th 6 5 4 4 1* — —
10th 6 5 5 4 2 — —
11th 6 6 5 4 3 — —
12th 6 6 5 4 4 1* —
13th 6 6 5 5 4 2 —
14th 6 6 6 5 4 3 —
15th 6 6 6 5 4 4 1*
16th 6 6 6 5 5 4 2
17th 6 6 6 6 5 4 3
18th 6 6 6 6 5 4 4
19th 6 6 6 6 5 5 4
20th 6 6 6 6 6 5 5
* Only if there is a bonus spell of that level)
Why not have it where you get access to 1st and 2nd level spells at the start and two talents to allow 3/4 (@6th level)and 5/6 level spells (@12th) later.
Because the whole class is already ability/talent-starved as-is.
The Warlock and Zealot need full free spellcasting progression just like every other 6th-level casters in order to be playable.
Take 20 levels of Social Persona abilities & talents (which are generally usable at all times), combined with free spell progression of 6th level spells and 10 Specialization Talents, and you've actually got a fairly solid class.
The Martial specializations also need 20 full levels of abilities & talents on top of the Social Persona in order to actually be a complete class, but the addition of natural spellcasting progression for the casters would mean that the caster specializations would only need 1 additional first-level scaling ability (like Mystic Bolts for the Warlock, and a Divine Not-Bloodline for the Zealot) in order to be very good choices.
If the Warlock and Zealot remain taxed in any way to gain spellcasting, it means that they end up being just worse than the martials, let alone every other 6th-level caster in the game.
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if the bloodline is the wa they are going they need to change it up a lil to make it feel more divine. right now i feel like it a lesser sorcerer with divine spell instead of arcane.
I think that's a fair criticism.
I can tell you, having played a Zealot, I really like the effect, at least with the fey power. I'm not thinking too hard about the fluff justification for it just yet...
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If the Warlock and Zealot remain taxed in any way to gain spellcasting, it means that they end up being just worse than the martials, let alone every other 6th-level caster in the game.
I think you underestimate the power of spellcasting. Warlocks and Zealots will be the strongest specialties in spite of the taxes.
I think you underestimate the power of spellcasting. Warlocks and Zealots will be the strongest specialties in spite of the taxes.
If the Warlock and Zealot remain taxed in any way to gain spellcasting, it means that they end up being just worse than the martials, let alone every other 6th-level caster in the game.
I think very many people who've played all 4 would disagree.
Right now, it sounds like the Stalker may have moved up to the paramount specialization, while the Warlock is second, and the Zealot third, and those are ONLY there because Avenger is just weak all-around.
Realistically, the Warlock and Zealot are pretty pathetic compared to every other 6th-level spellcasting class in the game, even with the new Social Talents adding more abilities to the mix.
Spellcasting is almost always stronger than being Martial. Everyone knows that Stalker has the most work put into and the coolest talents by far.
But it's not stronger than the Warlock. It's not because the Warlock is very good, it isn't.
But being a so-so martial isn't better than being a bad caster.
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Spellcasting is always stronger than being Martial. Everyone knows that Stalker has the most work put into and the coolest talents by far.
But it's not stronger than the Warlock. It's not because the Warlock is very good, it isn't. It's just how crazy spells are in this system.
Agreed 100%. Stalker is the most interesting and most fun to play, because it has a lot of new stuff it brings to the table. Doesn't make it the strongest. It ranks #3 or 4 in raw power.
Agreed 100%. Stalker is the most interesting and most fun to play, because it has a lot of new stuff it brings to the table. Doesn't make it the strongest. It ranks #3 or 4 in raw power.Spellcasting is always stronger than being Martial. Everyone knows that Stalker has the most work put into and the coolest talents by far.
But it's not stronger than the Warlock. It's not because the Warlock is very good, it isn't. It's just how crazy spells are in this system.
It's for sure better than the Avenger, who is absolutely terrible and I think beyond salvaging given their lack of effort on the class from v1 to v2 when even at that time it needed arguably the most work, possibly only next to the Zealot.
But even the prior Badquisitor iteration was still mechanically stronger than the Avenger.
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if the bloodline is the wa they are going they need to change it up a lil to make it feel more divine. right now i feel like it a lesser sorcerer with divine spell instead of arcane.I think that's a fair criticism.
I can tell you, having played a Zealot, I really like the effect, at least with the fey power. I'm not thinking too hard about the fluff justification for it just yet...
I have run thru build for each specialization and choice get for my zealot the only problem... How many GOOD feys have you meet?
I'm not sure what you're implying, are you saying there isn't any good fey? Because there is a number of them.
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I think you underestimate the power of spellcasting. Warlocks and Zealots will be the strongest specialties in spite of the taxes.
If the Warlock and Zealot remain taxed in any way to gain spellcasting, it means that they end up being just worse than the martials, let alone every other 6th-level caster in the game.
I think very many people who've played all 4 would disagree.
Right now, it sounds like the Stalker may have moved up to the paramount specialization, while the Warlock is second, and the Zealot third, and those are ONLY there because Avenger is just weak all-around.
Realistically, the Warlock and Zealot are pretty pathetic compared to every other 6th-level spellcasting class in the game, even with the new Social Talents adding more abilities to the mix.
That's why I suggest make the bloodline and the contract idea give the Warnock and zealot there base ability or make mystic bolt the Warnock base and if he want to specialize in spell then he can take talents
But if they do mystic bolt, have it give them two type of energy and +1 per 3 level and have a talent at 4 and 8 that give them the other two with other chain talents that can enhance them or even make the base mystic bolt there specialty that one damage type that does 1d8 + 1 per 4 with all the other energy type being 1d6 + 1 per 2 so that way they have a chance of passing resistance and hardness at higher level
I'm not sure what you're implying, are you saying there isn't any good fey? Because there is a number of them.With the alignement LG NG or CG? Cause none of my character have met any and I haven't seen one in the bestiaries
May I present to you the most iconic fey ever, the Pixie?
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May I present to you the most iconic fey ever, the Pixie?I'm not sure what you're implying, are you saying there isn't any good fey? Because there is a number of them.With the alignement LG NG or CG? Cause none of my character have met any and I haven't seen one in the bestiaries
Okay good point guess I miss that one
While not a true Fey, the Fairie Dragon is CG as well... also many fey can be either or. Remember, there are 2 courts among the Fey. One is ... mostly evil and the other is... mostly good. Mostly... they just tend to forget that other creatures actually STAY dead when the die and stuff... First world is a weird place lol
4th level casting for free would be acceptable, I could swallow the tax for the other two levels. But the cynic in me says the tax will stay to save developers the effort of brainstorming talents to replace those taxes. As so far what would you take on the Warlock if you didn't have to pay for spellcasting? You'd run out of interesting choices by level 10.
You almost have to go atleast 4th level spells regardless because there just isn't anything else left to take.
As I've said before... you don't need all 6 free... provided you have normal progression to level 4 and can buy the last 2 starting at level 2 it opens all kinds of options... like early level 5&6 casting or actually having the talents to cast well by level 4 when your casting maxes out.I think you underestimate the power of spellcasting. Warlocks and Zealots will be the strongest specialties in spite of the taxes.
If the Warlock and Zealot remain taxed in any way to gain spellcasting, it means that they end up being just worse than the martials, let alone every other 6th-level caster in the game.
I think very many people who've played all 4 would disagree.
Right now, it sounds like the Stalker may have moved up to the paramount specialization, while the Warlock is second, and the Zealot third, and those are ONLY there because Avenger is just weak all-around.
Realistically, the Warlock and Zealot are pretty pathetic compared to every other 6th-level spellcasting class in the game, even with the new Social Talents adding more abilities to the mix.
Why not? The 4 level casters are all d10 full BAB classes and the 6 level casters are all d8 3/4 BAB classes. Which do you think the Vigicasters resemble more...
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With the alignement LG NG or CG? Cause none of my character have met any and I haven't seen one in the bestiaries
The 3 iconic Fey are Nymphs, Dryads, and Swanmaidens, which are all good aligned. However, I'd say that the Fey as a whole better fit the chaotic and should be smiting law instead of evil.
The 3 iconic Fey are Nymphs, Dryads, and Swanmaidens, which are all good aligned. However, I'd say that the Fey as a whole better fit the chaotic and should be smiting law instead of evil.With the alignement LG NG or CG? Cause none of my character have met any and I haven't seen one in the bestiaries
They ARE pretty much all chaotic and rreallY DONt care as much about the whole good and evil thing.
But that is still NOTHING compared to Bards, summoners, or Magi...
The Chelish Diva's famous ability has a HUGE area vs renown (it affects THOUSANDS), her scathing tirade can out damage the bolt easy (and its sonic damage vs elemental), she can easily frighten things, has the bard inspire abilities, very powerful spells in social games, AND heavy armor casting...
Yeah, the warlock abilities are very easily out paced by even the bard...
M1k31: Alchemist has Alchemy, bomb 1d6, Brew Potion, Throw Anything, Poison use, mutagen, Extracts, Instant Alchemy, Grand Discovery, 9 discoveries and can buy more discoveries with feats. vigilante with 10 of those + level 6 looks about right.
Something needs buffed with the warlock. Free casting in armor and one of mystic bolts or bombs is a good start. Combining spellcasting feats or giving them for free is another.
mystic bolt: Needs a way to bypass resistances. say 5+level
Swapping elemental damages: I'd say you set it when you do your spells or meditate for x minutes to change.
Bombs: Allow ALL bomb discoveries and throw anything to be taken.
Familiar: Auto grows to improved familiar and the familiar can change forms between the two.
Nonlethal Spellcasting: works on bombs and bolts.
Tattoo Chamber: An improved version that allows bigger items to be stored and the show up worn. Have a whole disguise including armor and weapons inside. What could be better for someone with 2 ID's?
Something I've been wondering is whether renown itself is a stand-in for a mechanic that hasn't been built yet in some other part of Ultimate Intrigue. It certainly feels like it should be, and the Vigilante simply gets a better bonus from it than other classes do...
It COULD be. They said the intrigue rules aren't started yet.
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We can both agree that "Renown", as currently explained, is s@%~... in a town of populous 200... how many people are you honestly going to need to intimidate that would be worth a much of a few days in a week.... unless the path goes the "hot fuzz" route and you have an intimidate build that bonus is definitely paling in comparison to a simple "bardic knowledge"... at a minimum there should be a higher limit of different locations you can set up rumors at the same time, as well as a system for determining when you have earned that renown in the location permanently by actions as opposed to rumors...But that is still NOTHING compared to Bards, summoners, or Magi...
The Chelish Diva's famous ability has a HUGE area vs renown (it affects THOUSANDS), her scathing tirade can out damage the bolt easy (and its sonic damage vs elemental), she can easily frighten things, has the bard inspire abilities, very powerful spells in social games, AND heavy armor casting...
Yeah, the warlock abilities are very easily out paced by even the bard...
I actually agree with all of this. I keep reading renown and can never see taking it except I want the safe house... Too bad the safe house isn't something you can carry around with you and set up, like a giant tent that you can have blend in with it surroundings
I actually agree with all of this. I keep reading renown and can never see taking it except I want the safe house... Too bad the safe house isn't something you can carry around with you and set up, like a giant tent that you can have blend in with it surroundingsWe can both agree that "Renown", as currently explained, is s@%~... in a town of populous 200... how many people are you honestly going to need to intimidate that would be worth a much of a few days in a week.... unless the path goes the "hot fuzz" route and you have an intimidate build that bonus is definitely paling in comparison to a simple "bardic knowledge"... at a minimum there should be a higher limit of different locations you can set up rumors at the same time, as well as a system for determining when you have earned that renown in the location permanently by actions as opposed to rumors...But that is still NOTHING compared to Bards, summoners, or Magi...
The Chelish Diva's famous ability has a HUGE area vs renown (it affects THOUSANDS), her scathing tirade can out damage the bolt easy (and its sonic damage vs elemental), she can easily frighten things, has the bard inspire abilities, very powerful spells in social games, AND heavy armor casting...
Yeah, the warlock abilities are very easily out paced by even the bard...
Or a cardboard box, the stalker hideout of choice.
Or a cardboard box, the stalker hideout of choice.I actually agree with all of this. I keep reading renown and can never see taking it except I want the safe house... Too bad the safe house isn't something you can carry around with you and set up, like a giant tent that you can have blend in with it surroundingsWe can both agree that "Renown", as currently explained, is s@%~... in a town of populous 200... how many people are you honestly going to need to intimidate that would be worth a much of a few days in a week.... unless the path goes the "hot fuzz" route and you have an intimidate build that bonus is definitely paling in comparison to a simple "bardic knowledge"... at a minimum there should be a higher limit of different locations you can set up rumors at the same time, as well as a system for determining when you have earned that renown in the location permanently by actions as opposed to rumors...But that is still NOTHING compared to Bards, summoners, or Magi...
The Chelish Diva's famous ability has a HUGE area vs renown (it affects THOUSANDS), her scathing tirade can out damage the bolt easy (and its sonic damage vs elemental), she can easily frighten things, has the bard inspire abilities, very powerful spells in social games, AND heavy armor casting...
Yeah, the warlock abilities are very easily out paced by even the bard...
Has the added bonus of providing you a +20 circumstance bonus to stealth and non detection and you are treated as a non assuming box while in it :p
Has the added bonus of providing you a +20 circumstance bonus to stealth and non detection and you are treated as a non assuming box while in it :pOr a cardboard box, the stalker hideout of choice.I actually agree with all of this. I keep reading renown and can never see taking it except I want the safe house... Too bad the safe house isn't something you can carry around with you and set up, like a giant tent that you can have blend in with it surroundingsWe can both agree that "Renown", as currently explained, is s@%~... in a town of populous 200... how many people are you honestly going to need to intimidate that would be worth a much of a few days in a week.... unless the path goes the "hot fuzz" route and you have an intimidate build that bonus is definitely paling in comparison to a simple "bardic knowledge"... at a minimum there should be a higher limit of different locations you can set up rumors at the same time, as well as a system for determining when you have earned that renown in the location permanently by actions as opposed to rumors...But that is still NOTHING compared to Bards, summoners, or Magi...
The Chelish Diva's famous ability has a HUGE area vs renown (it affects THOUSANDS), her scathing tirade can out damage the bolt easy (and its sonic damage vs elemental), she can easily frighten things, has the bard inspire abilities, very powerful spells in social games, AND heavy armor casting...
Yeah, the warlock abilities are very easily out paced by even the bard...
Does an ! appear over your head to let you know to duck under said Box when someone's about to see you?
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We've talked internally about whether we want to structure the warlock differently as well. We didn't for now because we want to compare the results of the new-style zealot to the old-style warlock and see what people gravitate toward.
I am weirdly happy that you're using the two caster classes for some A/B testing.
Also: thank you for taking the time to engage on the playtest forums! I think we all appreciate it.
Most defnetely agree! Knowing what is going on hhelps alliviate some concerns thanx!
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I think the big thing I found with that casting talents was that I started out in phase 1 trying to test mostly "non-caster" warlocks and zealots, building using the other talents. I never felt the characters could keep up that way though with the talents out there, which really cut out testing in that direction. The provided talents seemed so far off what the equivalent spellcasters could do, that it just didn't make sense to not take spellcasting.
With not much changing in the talents for warlocks and zealots going into round 2, it's a direction I haven't felt the need to explore further during test 2.
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I think I agree with Thrawn, if spellcasting is limiting the power of the talents, then spellcasting becomes a tax, because it is far an away the best option.
The more desirable the talents the more options the Warlock will have because then you can choose to run a 4 spell level build etc.
If you're consigned to making spellcasting the best, then just give it to them.
If you want make strong choices that can actually challenge for talent slots then you need to make the other talents stronger, not weaker by comparison.
Yeah, pretty much what Thrawn007 and Tuyena said. Bolts where the major change and the changes meant I didn't have to test them. Before the bolts could power through low level resistances but with the dramatically lower damage, even multiple attacks end up dealing less overall damage. In essence, the player is forced to take more feats to gain extra attacks just to end up with a lower total damage than before.
Pretty much a step back. To make it viable the damage has to go up and/or a resistance bypass ability has to be added.