Hi all. Wacky question...I'm looking at the Druid, and I was wondering...if I were to take a domain (say the Air Domain) that had two subdomains that replace different abilities (as the Wind and Cloud subdomains do) could I choose both of those instead of the default abilities? Or am I stuck with only one subdomain and the other normal Air Domain ability?
What I'm looking to do is take BOTH subdomains, making the "Air" Domain look like this:
Wind Blast (Su): As a standard action, you can unleash a blast of air in a 30-foot line. Make a combat maneuver check against each creature in the line, using your caster level as your base attack bonus and your Wisdom modifier in place of your Strength modifier. Treat the results as a bull rush attempt. You can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + your Wisdom modifier.
Thundercloud (Su): At 8th level, you can, as a standard action, summon a storm cloud. This power functions as fog cloud except that creatures inside the cloud are deafened and take 2d6 points of electricity damage each round from the flashes of thunder and lightning. Once created, you can concentrate on the cloud to move it up to 30 feet each round. You can use this ability for a number of rounds per day equal to your cleric level. These rounds do not need to be consecutive.
I may not be taking this SPECIFIC combo, but would the IDEA work under RAW? Thanks guys!
If a subdomain has two associated domains, the cleric can only select the subdomain for one of her domains.
I believe this was supposed to prevent that, but they got the wording wrong. As far as I know there is no such thing as a "subdomain has two associated domains", so it probably meant "domain has two associated subdomains".
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" If a subdomain has two associated domains, the cleric can only select the subdomain for one of her domains."
I believe this was supposed to prevent that, but they got the wording wrong. As far as I know there is no such thing as a "subdomain has two associated domains", so it probably meant "domain has two associated subdomains".
Demon subdomain can be applied to Chaos and Evil, so can the other outsider domains.
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Demon subdomain can be applied to Chaos and Evil, so can the other outsider domains." If a subdomain has two associated domains, the cleric can only select the subdomain for one of her domains."
I believe this was supposed to prevent that, but they got the wording wrong. As far as I know there is no such thing as a "subdomain has two associated domains", so it probably meant "domain has two associated subdomains".
The result (to clarify) being that you cannot take both Demon (Chaos) and Demon (Evil).
Ok, I stand corrected, then I guess the official answer is Probably.
Kalindlara: Err...so RAW says no?
I know I would personally allow it as long as changed spells didn't conflict (and even might allow it the spells conflict if the player were to make a case, and knew he or she wouldn't be getting BOTH spells in exchange for one).
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I don't think it's supported by the rules, but it seems like a perfectly reasonable houserule (barring some obscene combination that I haven't thought of).
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Kalindlara: Err...so RAW says no?
I know I would personally allow it as long as changed spells didn't conflict (and even might allow it the spells conflict if the player were to make a case, and knew he or she wouldn't be getting BOTH spells in exchange for one).
I believe so, based on the text in the Advanced Player's Guide. It's not completely airtight, but there's not a lot of wiggle room.
However, as long as it's not PFS, you shouldn't have too much trouble allowing it.
The issue is that there is a paragraph about what you can and can't do with Combining and Subdomains. There is no prohibition listed against having two subdomains for one domain. Now you could say the prohibition was omitted, because it was considered too obvious; or you could say it was omitted because it is actually allowed. This is a Rule As UnWritten issue.
I thought for something to be allowed must have been specified within the rules? When did pathfinder become a prohibitive ruleset instead of a permessive one?
AFAIK you are not allowed to chose the same domain twice, and a subdomain still count as the original domain. So Demon (Chaos) and Demon (Evil) would not be anymore allowed than chosing Demon twice.
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As far as I know, assuming that the two Subdomains do not contradict at all, that is, they do not alter the same abilities or spells at all, this should be allowed, even in PFS. By the rules that is.
Subdomains are counted as Archetypes, and the rule is that you can not take two Archetypes that alter the same ability, but was later clarified to make some special exceptions. For example, a Cleric gets two Domains, so can take two Archtypes that remove a Domain, (leaving them without any Domains), but could not combine one that removes a Domain and another that swaps a Domain for another.
However, Both Cloud and Wind do change the 9th level spell, so can not be taken together (even if you never get to 9th level spellcasting, or do not get Domain Spells). The two are not compatible options.
Dekalinder: Choosing two subdomains of the same domain at once as two separate domains is not what I want to do. Sorry, I thought my intent was clear. I was asking about using the subdomains as sort of modular pieces, and replacing BOTH parts of ONE domain with subdomains. So, if using the Air Domain, switching the "Lighting Arc" and "Elemental Resistence" abilities of the base Air Domain and replacing them with "Wind Blast" from the Wind Subdomain and "Thunder Cloud" from the Cloud Subdomain. I know that THIS PARTICULAR combo would not work because of overlapping level 9 spell changes, but would that CONCEPT be possible.
DM Beckett: Thank you, that's kinda what I figured. Out of PFS, I would probably allow the combination of those two subdomains, simply because it doesn't break anything, and my games never make it past level 12 anyway lol but for other subdomain combos, that opens up a few different doors for character concepts!
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it was considered too obvious; or ... because it is actually allowed. This is a Rule As UnWritten issue.
Also known as "Ask your GM". I'd say no in my game, it seems too much like taking levels in Ninja and Rogue.
subdomains as sort of modular pieces, and replacing BOTH parts of ONE domain with subdomains.
Ok, no rules for this. So entirely 100% an "Ask your GM" question. I'd say no to you.
Subdomains are counted as Archetypes...
Citation needed. Subdomains function mechanically similar to archetypes, but nowhere in the rules does it say, or even imply, they are counted as such.
For example, a Cleric gets two Domains, so can take two Archtypes that remove a Domain, (leaving them without any Domains),
There are no archetypes that "remove a domain." There are archetypes that give you only one domain, but they cannot be combined with each other.
but could not combine one that removes a Domain and another that swaps a Domain for another.
I'm not sure what you mean by "swap a domain for another." There are archetypes that restrict your choice of domain, and it's true that they cannot be combined with archetypes that give you only one domain, because they both alter the Domain class feature. Or are you talking about "swapping" a subdomain for a domain? Again, subdomains are not archetypes, so they can be combined with archetypes that alter the Domain class feature.
James Risner: Just so I know, why would you say no? I don't see how it is at all like "taking levels in Ninja and Rogue."
I know that THIS PARTICULAR combo would not work because of overlapping level 9 spell changes, but would that CONCEPT be possible.
Is this all theory? Are there two existent sister subdomains that don't change the same spells and/or abilities of their parent?
It's all theory-based. One person in our group says it works, another says it doesn't, a third says only on GM approval, and the fourth...well...she doesn't know lmao
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Citation needed. Subdomains function mechanically similar to archetypes, but nowhere in the rules does it say, or even imply, they are counted as such.
Cleric: Instead of specific archetypes, each cleric can choose from a host of subdomains that focus on one aspect of their deity’s power. Two or more subdomains are presented for each domain.
I think this may be the source of that thinking.
James Risner: Just so I know, why would you say no? I don't see how it is at all like "taking levels in Ninja and Rogue."
If it doesn't immediately sound like Ninja/Rogue, then I probably can't explain it to you with words.
I'll try. Ninja is a "subdomain" of Rogue. You could have been a Rogue, but you chose to be a Ninja instead. By the rules you can't have levels in Rogue and Ninja because they are the same class. If there were a class called Thief that was to Rogue like Ninja, I'd also say you couldn't be a Ninja/Thief.
A cleric chooses two domains from among those belonging to her deity.
If a cleric selects a subdomain, she cannot select its associated domain as her other domain choice (in effect, the subdomain replaces its associated domain)
You can only take a particular domain once. You must choose two different domains. Subdomains are only available as a direct alternative to a specific domain that you can select.
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I'm thinking some people are missing the meaning of the original question. This is about a single domain choice that is being modified by multiple sub-domains, the same way you could add multiple archetypes to the same class.
I suppose the real question is "Do subdomains operate under the same restrictions as archetypes?"
I can't think of any god that has two sub-domains of the same domain, so typically the question wouldn't even come up.
It isn't a cleric alone that has a subdomain, it is the deity they worship as well, and represents a more specialized aspect of the somewhat more general domain.
Additionally, I don't think a sub-domain is like an archetype. Although they do modify a basic concept to make it more specialized, they are also very specific things in an of themselves.
Lastly, I think even if one applied the archetype rules, very few would stack. In the example above, both replace the 9th level air domain spell with storm of vengeance for cloud and winds of vengeance for wind.
All that being said, it probably wouldn't be unbalanced and there is nothing wrong with a GM inventing new goods and new domains, and working two subdomains together to create a new subdomain would be one perfectly viable way of doing that.
It doesn't matter whether they work under the same restrictions as archetypes. It is irrelevant.
It only works if you can find a legitimate way to take the original domain twice. Unless someone is seriously suggesting I can take the Animal domain twice? Two animal companions at 4th level sounds good to me.
It doesn't matter whether they work under the same restrictions as archetypes. It is irrelevant.
It only works if you can find a legitimate way to take the original domain twice. Unless someone is seriously suggesting I can take the Animal domain twice? Two animal companions at 4th level sounds good to me.
You're still not understanding the question. Consider there is an Automotive Domain. It has Coupe and Truck Subdomains. Coupe replaces the 1st level power and Truck replaces the 8th level power of the Automotive domain. So, the theoretical question is "Can you have one Automotive Domain with both the Coup and Truck archetype/subdomain".
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You're still not understanding the question. Consider there is an Automotive Domain. It has Coupe and Truck Subdomains. Coupe replaces the 1st level power and Truck replaces the 8th level power of the Automotive domain. So, the theoretical question is "Can you have one Automotive Domain with both the Coup and Truck archetype/subdomain".
Depends...you're not using it to buck fuel-efficiency standards, are you?
You're still not understanding the question. Consider there is an Automotive Domain. It has Coupe and Truck Subdomains. Coupe replaces the 1st level power and Truck replaces the 8th level power of the Automotive domain. So, the theoretical question is "Can you have one Automotive Domain with both the Coup and Truck archetype/subdomain".It doesn't matter whether they work under the same restrictions as archetypes. It is irrelevant.
It only works if you can find a legitimate way to take the original domain twice. Unless someone is seriously suggesting I can take the Animal domain twice? Two animal companions at 4th level sounds good to me.
Ok, I get it now.
Still no for two reasons. First, it doesn't act in the same way as archetypes. The first subdomain effectively replaces the domain. When you choose Coupe, you no longer have the Automotive domain to replace with Truck.
Second, there is no provision to select more than one sub-domain. Archetypes explicitly allow you to select more than one archetype if they don't affect the same abilities. That provision is absent from sub-domains.
Subdomains are treated as equivalent to their associated domain for any effect or prerequisite based on domains.
This is why it might be possible. Because of that line, someone could infer that they could apply a second subdomain to their subdomain, because the subdomain also counts as its parent domain.
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Personally, I'd allow it myself. Anything that can give a cleric more flavor is good in my book! Besides, I'm not seeing any gross problems resulting from this sort of thing, so I don't think it's that bad.
I can't think of any god that has two sub-domains of the same domain, so typically the question wouldn't even come up.Asmodeus: Arcane/Divine, Ash/Smoke.
Ash/Smoke for Yamatsumi, as well.
Neither replaces the same domain power, nor the same levels of spells.I'd always assumed they would stack as archtypes do.
Interesting that others assume the opposite...
[edit:] also, concur it wouldn't work with the OP's initial question / example as both replace the 9th level spell...
-TimD
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Subdomains are counted as Archetypes...Citation needed. Subdomains function mechanically similar to archetypes, but nowhere in the rules does it say, or even imply, they are counted as such.
I think you have it backwards here. The Subdomains are found under the Archetypes section of the book as alternate class features. Unlike any other Archetype, though, Domains do not have a consistent level progression. Some grant powers at 4th for instance others at 8th instead, etc.
So like you said, a citation is needed, (how are they not Archetypes?).
There is no need for it to say that Subdomains act like Archetypes, because they are. Just in a slightly different form as is required for the base class. Likewise, you will not see anything that says the opposite, "Unlike Subdomains, Archetypes can/can not do ____".
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I had always assumed this was not possible, but in reading this thread it makes total sense that it would be. And wouldn't really be unbalanced, either.
EDIT:
I thought for something to be allowed must have been specified within the rules? When did pathfinder become a prohibitive ruleset instead of a permessive one?
I was about to make a comment on why this was the wrong way to think of it, but I realized all the counterexamples were stuff being done by characters. In terms of stuff being done by players, this is an excellent point - generally, you can't use mechanics unless the game says you can. While archetypes explicitly allow you to do so, subdomains are explicitly not archetypes, even if they function very similarly.
So I half retract my position - I would agree you cannot by RAW. But as a GM, I would allow this in my home game.
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The issue is that there is a paragraph about what you can and can't do with Combining and Subdomains. There is no prohibition listed against having two subdomains for one domain. Now you could say the prohibition was omitted, because it was considered too obvious; or you could say it was omitted because it is actually allowed. This is a Rule As UnWritten issue.
So, the question is, does taking a subdomain mean that you no longer have the domain for which it is a subdomain?
(in effect, the subdomain replaces its associated domain).
So, taking Cloud (Air) means you have the Cloud subdomain, but not, actually, the Air domain, IMO. You can meet prereqs for Air domain, as Cloud uses much of the domain, and the rules says it counts, but you have Cloud, not Air, so how would you take Wind (Air) since you no longer have Air, but Cloud (Air)?
Some people may be misreading the question...thank you, Melkiador, for understanding and trying to shed light on my wording.
After speaking to my group about the topic, we have decided as a group that it would work as long as the two subdomains did not replace the same ability or the same domain spell. Therefore, Ash/Smoke would work, whereas my earlier suggestion would not.
Below are the subdomains that do not overlap in terms of spells and abilities replaced. Unfortunately, Tien deities have no unified list of subdomains that I'm aware of, so even if they're mentioned as having one of the following subdomains (usually in Player Companions), I can't confirm that they have the accompanying one from the same domain.
Chaos (Demodand (Chaos), Entropy): No entity with both subdomains.
Death (Psychopomp (Death), Undead): No entity with both subdomains.
Evil (Demodand (Evil), Fear): No entity with both subdomains.
Fire (Ash, Smoke): Seems valid. 11 entities listed in Inner Sea Gods with both subdomains.
Good (Agathion, Friendship): Seems valid. 3 entities listed in Inner Sea Gods with both subdomains.
Good (Archon, Friendship): Seems valid. 1 entity listed in Inner Sea Gods with both subdomains.
Good (Azata (Good), Redemption): No entity with both subdomains.
Healing (Restoration, Resurrection): Seems valid. 3 entities listed in Inner Sea Gods with both subdomains.
Law (Archon (Law), Judgement): Seems valid. 4 entities listed in Inner Sea Gods with both subdomains.
Law (Judgement, Tyranny): No entity with both subdomains.
Liberation (Freedom, Revolution): Seems valid. 5 entities listed in Inner Sea Gods with both subdomains.
Nobility (Aristocracy, Martyr): Seems valid. 1 entity listed in Inner Sea Gods with both subdomains.
Plant (Decay, Growth): Seems valid. 7 entities listed in Inner Sea Gods with both subdomains.
Scalykind (Saurian, Venom): No entity with both subdomains.
Trickery (Ambush, Thievery): Seems valid but it only works if you're a kobold. Other than that qualifier, there are 20 entities listed in Inner Sea Gods with both subdomains.
Trickery (Greed, Thievery): Seems valid. 2 entities listed in Inner Sea Gods with both subdomains.
Void (Dark Tapestry, Isolation): No entity with both subdomains.
Water (Flowing, Ice): Seems valid. 1 entity listed in Inner Sea Gods with both subdomains.
Water (Ice, Rivers): No entity with both subdomains.
Weather (Seasons, Storms): Seems valid. 4 entities listed in Inner Sea Gods with both subdomains.
As best as I can tell, the above are the only valid options for "multi-subdomaining", even if you accept that it is allowed. Personally, I think it seems reasonable and would allow it. Something to keep in mind (and the reason why I bothered listing all the combinations that don't have a deity with both subdomains) is that a Cleric is not technically required to pick a single deity. Subject to GM discretion, they are allowed to use this rule:
As their powers are influenced by their faith, all clerics must focus their worship upon a divine source. While the vast majority of clerics revere a specific deity, a small number dedicate themselves to a divine concept worthy of devotion—such as battle, death, justice, or knowledge—free of a deific abstraction. (Work with your GM if you prefer this path to selecting a specific deity.)
So even without an established deity, you could design a character with access to, for example, the Water (Ice, Rivers) combination.
If subdomains are archetypes, then they wouldn't stack. That is because they change the (first/second) domain spell class feature. Doesn't matter if the spell changes themselves don't overlap, the domain spells are one class feature, and you can't have two archetypes changing the same feature. That is if subdomains are archetypes.
Dekalinder: Choosing two subdomains of the same domain at once as two separate domains is not what I want to do. Sorry, I thought my intent was clear. I was asking about using the subdomains as sort of modular pieces, and replacing BOTH parts of ONE domain with subdomains. So, if using the Air Domain, switching the "Lighting Arc" and "Elemental Resistence" abilities of the base Air Domain and replacing them with "Wind Blast" from the Wind Subdomain and "Thunder Cloud" from the Cloud Subdomain. I know that THIS PARTICULAR combo would not work because of overlapping level 9 spell changes, but would that CONCEPT be possible.
Sorry if I misinterpreted you.
While the case is different, i feel like the answer is still the same.I feel this case is quite similiar to the crossblood/wildblood sorcer case, where even if the ability would technically be compatible, being 2 alteration of the same class feature (domain) they do not stack.
Honestly, the issue of whether there are entities allowing it is immaterial to the rules.
Pathfinder RPG does NOT require the Golarion campaign setting. Other settings may have deities that DO allow both subdomains. I'm in an Eberron game now that uses PF. Further, some classes can get a domain without worship of a deity, even in Golarion. Druids spring to mind. So a druid without a deity could (assuming this concept is even allowed) take the Water domain, apply both Ice and Rivers to it, and be good. Even though no deity grants both.