I was looking over the wizard class and the favored class bonuses available to certain races.
I see that an elf can:
'Select one arcane school power at 1st level that is normally usable a number of times per day equal to 3 + the wizard's Intelligence modifier. The wizard adds +½ to the number of uses per day of that arcane school power.'
If I read this correctly, an elf Evoker could choose this bonus twice over 2 levels and choose, for instance, Force Missile (available at 1st and usable 3 + int. mod. times per day) at which point he could use the ability 3 + int. mod. + 1 times per day.
I see nothing that says the arcane school power must be one from a school the wizard has. So an elven Universalist could choose Force Missile twice and seem to be able to use it once per day. Is this correct? It would also seem that an elven wizard could choose even an opposing schools ability and be able to gain uses per day, is this correct?
I did find one thread on the subject when I searched and some people said it wasn't an option because a wizard had to have the ability to gain the use of an ability, but looking at the wording and the way other bonuses are listed that doesn't seem to hold water. For instance, the Sylph's favored class bonus spells out that the chosen power must be one that the wizard has.
As far as wording and rules go, it seems that a wizard could gain 1 use of an ability every 2 levels, whether this is intended or not or whether it might be too powerful or not. Granted, they wouldn't have 3 + int uses, only 1.
You have to choose a power that YOU can use 3+int times per day to increase the number of uses. Or in other words you have to choose one of the school powers you have.
You can not choose a school you don't have to get one use in something you do not have.
I see what you implying, but then it would say, 'Choose one arcane school power that you can normally...' wouldn't it? I mean, it's been at least 4 weeks since Pathfinder came out to clear that up right?
For instance, the Sylph bonus reads, 'Select one arcane school power from the air or wood elemental schools that the wizard can currently use...' That seems pretty clear and also indicates that they understand how to word things.
If a class had an option that said, 'Choose a Paladin ability, like Lay on Hands. Add 1/3 uses per day of it.' that would seem to indicate that after the third time you have 1 use per day of it, whether you had Lay on Hands or not. Just like if you chose detect evil or smite evil.
It's meant in the same way as the Sylph bonus. Let's see:
Quote:
'Select one arcane school power at 1st level that is normally usable a number of times per day equal to 3 + the wizard's Intelligence modifier. The wizard adds +½ to the number of uses per day of that arcane school power.'
a) If it's not your school, it's not normally usable for you.
b) If you don't have the power yet, it's not usable for 3 + Int times.
c) It explicitely says 'adds +½'. While adding ½ to 0 and getting ½ is mathematically correct, adding something to nothing is not intuitive for the population majority.
d) It doesn't state explicitely you can take any school power.
And it doesn't fit to the fluff of a specialist wizard.
Perhaps there is some wizard or arcanist archetype which can access multiple school powers though. And you can always mix in sorcerer / cleric / oracle levels, if you want such powers by all means. If you don't want to spend levels on them, there is Eldritch Heritage and Believer's Boon. And Variant Multiclassing from Pathfinder Unchained.
To add to what the others are saying, lets assume for a moment you can select a power you do not have.
You gain uses in a power that, you still do not have. Put another way, the uses in an ability you don't have don't do anything for you because you still don't have the ability.
Its like wearing a magic item that adds uses per day to a power. It does not grant you the power.
Pizza Lord, did you come here to ask a question? Or just to argue your literal interpretation?
I am here asking a question ABOUT a literal interpretation of the rules.
Spoiler:
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I hope that clears it up for you as to the purpose, it's not about changing my mind, just getting some good, or more aptly, well-phrased ways of explaining how/why things work. I think I can gauge how you feel on this issue, but your actual contribution is not the way I would respond to someone coming to me and asking advice or for a clarification.
I think I'll refrain from acting like a rules god raining judgement down on the unworthy because someone wishes to question something or even purposefully debate about a hobby they enjoy. Sorry so much of your time was wasted trying to fix me.
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@Gauss,
that's a really good example. Thank you. I think I can use some items as examples, like Gloves of Snaring or a Monk's Robe.
Most magic items are actually worded very clearly, for instance, the monk's robe is detailed about what and to whom it adds monk levels and to how it adds extra uses to an ability that the player must have as well. Then it talks about what it does for those without that ability.
I try and be understanding with how someone could get a bit dubious about reading things, like the favored class bonuses we're discussing here, and them accepting my word that it's not important enough to use one or two words in the description to make things clear.
@SheepishEidolon,
thanks for the reply. That's more along the lines of the things brought up before. Things like the difference between 0 and none and '-' etc. Granted it works for most examples.
If you were to tell me that a bonus said 'Choose an energy type, add 1 to your energy resistance against that energy.' and you said that it didn't give you Energy Resistance 1 because you don't have Energy Resistance, (as opposed to Energy Resistance 0, which we both can agree doesn't exist), then I can respect that stance. We can all hope it would be phrased differently.
Similarly, there was an example with Natural Armor bonuses. They had to come out and clarify that things which increased or added to Natural Armor (not just granted it) worked on things that did not have Natural Armor (specifically saying to count it as being 0.)
While that would seem a precedent, there are clearly feats and abilities that do increase Natural Armor, like Improved Natural Armor which requires, strangely enough, Natural Armor. Since everything has an effective Natural Armor (of 0 supposedly) even when it doesn't have Natural Armor, you might see how some people can reasonably question such a thing especially, and specifically, when we're discussing something that could be cleared up with one or two words in the description. I appreciate the reply though, I'll definitely share it at the next session.
Don't come here asking for literal interpretation of rules.
We are aware as a community when people are doing so, we know you have an agenda, and we know that such was never the intention of game developers. The game developers have stated the rules are supposed to be interpreted with common sense. You interpretation does not use common sense.
Wizard and arcanist can be combined, and there is no restriction that they have to use the same school.
This isn't a restriction? "If a class feature allows the character to make a one-time choice (such as a bloodline), that choice must match similar choices made by the parent classes and vice-versa (such as selecting the same bloodline)."
I'd say that arcane school is the same type of "one-time choice" as bloodline.
Wizard and arcanist can be combined, and there is no restriction that they have to use the same school.
This isn't a restriction? "If a class feature allows the character to make a one-time choice (such as a bloodline), that choice must match similar choices made by the parent classes and vice-versa (such as selecting the same bloodline)."
I'd say that arcane school is the same type of "one-time choice" as bloodline.
I agree. If you select a school as a Wizard and as a School Savant Arcanist, then you have to select the same school for both.
This doesn't work for the same reason gloves of dueling don't work with use magic device. You increase the uses of a class feature you don't actually have access to. So yes, you can do it, but no, you don't get any benefit from it.
Beyond all the excellent reasons above why this doesn't work, even the most literal reading of the ability makes it clear that it has to be a power that you have.
"usable a number of times per day equal to 3 + the wizard's Intelligence modifier."
It doesn't say 'a wizard's' intelligence modifier. It says 'the wizard's' meaning this specific wizard who is taking this favored class bonus must have the uses.
If the wizard cannot use it without this FCB, then he can't take it as an FCB.
Related Point: Can I apply the aasimar or elf oracle's favored class bonus to a revelation I do not yet have? Can I do so for the aasimar bard’s favored class bonus?
No, when choosing which class feature’s effective level to increase, you can only select a feature that you already have. For example, an aasimar flame oracle cannot choose to improve the wings of fire revelation with her favored class bonus until she actually gains the revelation at 7th level or beyond; she could not start augmenting it at 1st level.
Simple as that. You need the class feature you are giving a bonus to.
Wizard and arcanist can be combined, and there is no restriction that they have to use the same school.
Unfortunately, and not to jump on the bandwagon, but what the others say is correct. If an Arcanist School-Savant went wizard they would have to select the same school.
I haven't seen a way for a wizard to have two schools as of yet however. It might be possible, there's lots of things to read and look at, but I think it would be highly unusual.
Since I don't see a way for that, the truth is that it makes little sense not to say '...your school...' That would still work even if a wizard did have 2 schools somehow.
As far as I can see, a Universalist should be able to use the Favored class bonus to increase their Hand of the Apprentice ability. While a Universalist is listed in the School sidebar and labeled as a school (for ease of reference searches), is also clearly defined as being the category a wizard with No School falls into, and that such magics are defined as 'belonging to no school'. You would not allow a Universalist access to this favored class bonus?
Ragoz wrote:
...[FAQ]...Simple as that. You need the class feature you are giving a bonus to.
True, but there's also a difference between adding bonuses to a feature and gaining the use or additional uses of a feature. For instance, a rogue gaining 1/6 of a talent is different from gaining a +2 to that talent is different from gaining a 1/day use of that talent.
In this case, you are not getting a bonus any more than a gnome getting 1 extra use per day to dancing lights is getting a bonus to dancing lights. Were it to say, 'Gain +1 damage to your Force Missile Evocation school ability' and you didn't have that, your example would be closer.
Dave Justus wrote:
"usable a number of times per day equal to 3 + the wizard's Intelligence modifier."
I have to disagree with that definition, at least in this specific instance. 'usable a number of times per day...' in this case is a description similar to 'combat feat' or 'monk weapon'.
If the description said, 'Choose a feat usable once per day, (like Battle Cry, Fight On, or Judgement Surge). You gain that feat.' You wouldn't very well say, "Well that feat isn't usable once per day, because I don't have it, it's usable none-times-per-day."
Quote:
It doesn't say 'a wizard's' intelligence modifier. It says 'the wizard's' meaning this specific wizard who is taking this favored class bonus must have the uses.
Similar to above, if an elven evoker took her favored class bonus twice to add 1 use to the Evocation school power (which we all agree is acceptable), you wouldn't say they couldn't do it again because, "Well now that power is normally used by [this specific wizard who is taking this favored class bonus] 4 + int. modifier times per day." Claxon and Nefreet would jump you, figuratively, whether they agree with me or not.
There were some great points and as such I hope I respectfully addressed my thoughts on them., however I noticed that the post was running long and to prevent there being a wall-of-text, I put this part in spoiler form. I've noticed that there are people who sometimes have nothing to add or reply to and they tend to start using the lengths of posts as a reason someone shouldn't be taken seriously or treated with respect.
It isn't that I don't necessarily agree with how it's 'supposed to be'. More it's a process of understanding why it's written that way. You see, there has to be a reason that they chose to list an elven wizard's favored class bonus as: 'Select one arcane school power at 1st level that is normally usable a number of times per day equal to 3 + the wizard's Intelligence modifier. The wizard adds +½ to the number of uses per day of that arcane school power.
So let's say that as [everyone in the world] knows according to Claxon and Nefreet, that this is specifically supposed to mean that this race's bonus is only supposed to be a benefit to a specifically specialized wizard. Let's see what what we can figure out, using COMMON SENSE:
We can see that this specific wording is used, many times for other races as well, exactly as it is written.
One must, (and I believe should be able to, without getting jumped on by Crusading Forum Guardians) ask the question, "Why then does the Sylph favored bonus specifically say, ''Select one arcane school power from the air or wood elemental schools that the wizard can currently use.'?"
Why then does the Gnome favored class bonus spell out, 'Add +½ to the number of uses per day of arcane school powers. This increase only applies to arcane school powers available at 1st level and normally usable a number of times per day equal to 3 + the wizard's Intelligence modifier.'?
How is that supposed to read and function differently than an elf or a tiefling or a drow's favored class bonus?
It isn't that I think it would be great or even intended that a Gnome Wizard can spend 2 levels and gain 1 use per day of every arcane school power or even whether that would be insanely overpowered or not. I just think that we, as a forum community, should be able to clearly understand how and why rules are written. I think this thread actually has some very good points and I like to think that maybe later, some new player or person still learning might be able to come here and see the unfolding discussion about the rules and rulings and maybe even find a response based on a thought or line-of-thinking they themselves had, even if erroneous.
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Having said that, I would like to thank those who took their time to share their FAQS and answers without being judgmental (even if you were personally annoyed at least you managed to post and answer in a way that added to the discussion.) I think I can share these answers with those who expressed an interest in learning more, though you're of course more than welcome to add more until then.
Another argument against "RAW" is that Pathfinder wasn't written in a regimented, hard coded format by a single, all knowing author. And it was never meant to be interpreted that way, either.
It began as cut-and-paste from a different game, went through edits by several founders who had a vision, by a company that hired more authors, contributors, and editors, all with varying levels of experience or knowledge of the original vision, and then was reprinted, FAQ'd, and changed to what we have today. On top of all that, what we have today might not be what we have tomorrow, or next week.
That leaves a lot of room for errors, ambiguities, formatting, and just plain English to mess things up.
Sometimes a legitimate conflict exists. But just because some things are left to interpretation does not mean everything should be. This is one of those occurrences where "common sense", however common you wish to define it, should be fairly obvious.
There is a lot of comparing apples to oranges going on in this discussion, although the overwhelming majority agree to the main point: the FCB does not allow you to overwrite the "One-Time Choice" of your class (Wizard's Specialization School, Cleric/Druid/Inquisitor Domain, Sorcerer Bloodline, Witch Patron, etc).
I posit that it is clearly not the intent of the designers that a FCB allows you to add abilities that you do not have access to.
Using the same logic as put forth in the original post, a dwarf could add 1/2 a use of any 1st level domain power, regardless of his or her deities domains or the prohibition against more than two domains. I cannot create a Dwarf Cleric (Theologian) of Seranae with the Fire Domain and then, since I have lost a domain from my archetype, use my FCB to gain +1 use/two levels of Copycat (from Thievery), nor could I even gain +1 use/two levels of Rebuke Death (from Healing).
A gnome sorcerer cannot use their FCB to gain +1/two levels of a different bloodline's 1st level ability. There's an archetype for that, and the ability to do so comes at a high price.
The above, including Wizard, are different from the human Rogue FCB: the rogue gains +1/6 levels of a rogue talent, which they already have access to all rogue talents. A rogue talent is not a one-time choice, it is a class feature with several subfeatures that can be chosen periodically over 20 levels of rogue.
School, Domain, and Bloodline are not a pool of choices over the class's 20 levels, but a one-time choice, up front, upon selection of that class.
All races with this particular FCB for Wizard, Cleric, Sorcerer are essentially identical. An editor felt that the way it was written was clear via common sense, and it is.
It does not allow someone to create an Elf Diviner who can, at 10th level, have the benefits of Forwarned, use Diviner's Forture 3+Int times/day, and use Shift 2 times/day, and use Protective Ward 2 times/day, and use Battle Shaping 1 times/day.
Could someone who is new to the game and not familiar with the "one-time choice" concepts or the idea of Specialization Schools literally read the FCB and assume that this could be done? Yes, but they would be incorrect.
Claxon and Nefreet would jump you, figuratively, whether they agree with me or not.
Actually, he is using an overly literal interpretation in an attempt to counter your overly literal interpretation. Basically, he is using nonsense to try to counter your nonsense.
As for the idea of figuratively jumping someone...I prefer to think of it as a GM throwing the book at you for bringing what you suspect is a disingenuous reading of the rules to the table and feigning to be unaware of it.
I don't like it when people come here not looking for a correct understanding of the rules, but rather want reinforcement for their interpretation of the rules.
...the FCB does not allow you to overwrite the "One-Time Choice" of your class (Wizard's Specialization School, Cleric/Druid/Inquisitor Domain, Sorcerer Bloodline, Witch Patron, etc).
I posit that it is clearly not the intent of the designers that a FCB allows you to add abilities that you do not have access to.
Now don't try and derail the thread by claiming anyone is saying that a Wizard FCB let's you take two schools or two bloodlines. You can posit all you want, but that's not this discussion.
Domains:
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There is a huge world of difference between receiving a Domain power, or an ability from a different class and having that Domain or being that class. For instance, an ability or class feature could allow you to choose a Domain and grant you access to the associated power of that Domain. It does not mean you possess that Domain for purposes of effects, casting Domain spells, or gaining feats that have the Domain as a prerequisite. Similarly if your class, feat, or talent grants you Lay on Hands as a Paladin, that does not make you a Paladin nor does it require you to be Lawful Good, nor are you cheating the system by having a power normally reserved for a specific class with a specific alignment, even if you don't have that alignment.
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So having said that, I posit that gaining the 1st level school power from a School you did not specialize in is not the same as having that School. Whether it is or isn't the 'intention' of some unknowable entity isn't relevant because that's not what's happening.
Quote:
A gnome sorcerer cannot use their FCB to gain +1/two levels of a different bloodline's 1st level ability. There's an archetype for that, and the ability to do so comes at a high price.
Again:
You are mixing up someone getting one ability that is found in a Bloodline and trying to twist that into them having that Bloodline. Assuming you are referring to Dual-blooded, that is costly, because you actually have two bloodlines.
What does that mean? That means you get selections from both class skills, both feat lists, both power lists, and both bloodline arcanas. That is a HUGE world of difference from having a 1/day use of a power which simulates one from a bloodline and which, in fact, functions far worse for someone without the bloodline, since normally it would be usable 5 to 6 times per day. The difference between what is being discussed and what you are implying can't be made any more clear or 'common sense.'
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Quote:
All races with this particular FCB for Wizard, Cleric, Sorcerer are essentially identical. An editor felt that the way it was written was clear via common sense, and it is.
So you are 'positing' that an editor felt it was common sense, or that someone with common sense will naturally believe, that it would be clear to write the Wizard FCB for an elf one way, and then completely write what would be the exact same FCB in a totally different way, with different wording for a gnome just a few lines later. And then... just to make it perfectly clear... use the same wording for another race's FCB from the first one? It's always possible.
Let's look (briefly) at your list of Sorcerer FCB's. Let's say you have your Infernal bloodline sorcerer (1st level power usable 3+/day is Corrupting Touch.) So you got your Elf, your Gnome, your Half-elf, your Halfling, your Catfolk, your Tengu, etc. You read their FCB and you say "That seems 'clear enough'." (And it probably is accurate). But then you have your Sylph or your Ifrit and you read the FCB and you say to yourself, 'Well that is 'actually clear.' It actually says I DO have to have the power. Wow, that's 'common sense.' (and that DEFINITELY is accurate).
Then you read your Infernal Bloodline Tiefling FCB and you see that while it also has an option for Abyssal bloodlines, it is exactly the same and does the exact same thing as every other Infernal Bloodline FCB of this type does (that being +1 usage per 2 FCBs). Except it also clearly states that they must have the power.
Select one arcane school power at 1st level that is normally usable a number of times per day equal to 3 + the wizard's Intelligence modifier. The wizard adds +1/2 to the number of uses per day of that arcane school power.
I mean, if it is just supposed to advance your currently existent School Power, then why not word it that way?
And I don't really see why people seem so against allowing this. It's still not a good choice when you have a d6 hit die and a penalty to constitution. Is a force missle really better than +2 hit points?
As for the idea of figuratively jumping someone...I prefer to think of it as a GM throwing the book at you for bringing what you suspect is a disingenuous reading of the rules to the table and feigning to be unaware of it.
And I would call that "'literally' throwing the book at someone.' At the risk of being called too literal, except the GM uses the SRD from his laptop. Could still be... 'Literally throwing the Notebook at someone' in the right circumstance though.
Quote:
Basically, he is using nonsense
I would like to ask what part of Dave Justus' post you felt was nonsense. I didn't agree with his specific example or explanation, but I didn't have any trouble understanding what he was going for. I mean, I could see his point-of-view. I certainly felt he was being straight-forward and partaking in the discussion.
Select one arcane school power at 1st level that is normally usable a number of times per day equal to 3 + the wizard's Intelligence modifier. The wizard adds +1/2 to the number of uses per day of that arcane school power.
I mean, if it is just supposed to advance your currently existent School Power, then why not word it that way?
And I don't really see why people seem so against allowing this. It's still not a good choice when you have a d6 hit die and a penalty to constitution. Is a force missle really better than +2 hit points?
because maybe a school is weird and has 2 powers that add that many uses, at first level, it wasn't discriminating against future design choices.
it doesn't say choose one school, it says choose one power.
Claxon and Nefreet would jump you, figuratively, whether they agree with me or not.
Actually, he is using an overly literal interpretation in an attempt to counter your overly literal interpretation. Basically, he is using nonsense to try to counter your nonsense.
As for the idea of figuratively jumping someone...I prefer to think of it as a GM throwing the book at you for bringing what you suspect is a disingenuous reading of the rules to the table and feigning to be unaware of it.
I don't like it when people come here not looking for a correct understanding of the rules, but rather want reinforcement for their interpretation of the rules.
That was indeed my point. The best reasons had already been thoroughly explained why this doesn't work. I was merely going beyond that to demonstrate that even overly literal parsing of the wording doesn't yield the OPs desired result.
And I don't really see why people seem so against allowing this. It's still not a good choice when you have a d6 hit die and a penalty to constitution. Is a force missile really better than +2 hit-points?
Hold on now, Melkiador. That's a dangerous can of worms you're about to open up. So far everyone's been pretty good about keeping the topic about its merits and wording and interpretation. Once we start into a discussion of something being too powerful then it starts to slide away from a Rules discussion (and it's currently along the lines of Rules-Design discussion so far.)
Everyone will have different views of what is and isn't overpowered and that will start a tangent. In the interest of keeping the topic focused, I think I can address the issue you bring up and why I don't want to pursue it too far however.
I agree with you basically. If an elf wizard uses his 2 levels of FCB to get 1 use of Force Missile per day (though anybody with sense is going Dimensional Slide from Teleport school first IMO) that not something I think most people would consider overpowered or even overshadowing to an Evocation specialist (since they'll have it 5-6 times a day).
However, if you read the Gnome FCB, you'd see that the way it's worded would more or less give a Gnome wizard 1 day usage of every school's 1st ability for 2 FCBs. Even I would have to do some serious play-testing to assure myself that isn't probably unbalanced.
That's why the discussion hasn't touched on whether it would be overpowered or not. Not because anyone is hiding anything, but because there's no set marker for it and also because it's well-known that there ARE overpowered things in the game and that merely being overpowered is not going to be the sole reason something isn't legal and even intended.
I like this discussion for how it shows how the forum members and community sort out the rules, both as they're written and intended and also why they believe they're that way.
I'm not sure why this is still a thing. That faq wasn't just saying it only applied to bonuses for oracle revelations etc. It was using their question as an example for not being able to apply a FCB to a class feature you don't have yet.
You don't have the class feature and can't take a FCB which would alter something you don't have.
I'm not sure why this is still a thing. That faq wasn't just saying it only applied to bonuses for oracle revelations etc. It was using their question as an example for not being able to apply a FCB to a class feature you don't have yet.
You don't have the class feature and can't take a FCB which would alter something you don't have.
I'm not sure why this is still a thing. That faq wasn't just saying it only applied to bonuses for oracle revelations etc. It was using their question as an example for not being able to apply a FCB to a class feature you don't have yet.
Don't have the class feature and can't take a FCB which would alter something you don't have.
Because, while your response was appreciated and noted, there were other people who posted incorrect or misleading information. They were claiming that it allowed extra Spell Schools, or Bloodlines, or Domains. For all you know, your post is the golden answer that someone with a question will see and they can stop reading the post right then.
So don't assume that because some people still have questions it means you were being ignored, but also don't think that because you believe you have an answer that others can't comment in a post after you. Then there are people like Bandw2 who just want to post disparaging remarks about people specifically without contributing.
As for the FAQ you posted, again the discussion is not about adding bonuses. It is about gaining an ability. There is a difference.
You can have an ability that when chosen states 'Add +1/4 to your Natural Armor bonus.' You don't need to have Natural Armor or even a bonus for that to work. Even though Natural Armor is an ability that you can have or can NOT have.
You can similarly have an ability that each time chosen grants you a '+1/2 to Constitution checks.' You can choose this and it can be used even if you have 'No' or '-' Constitution. Because even a creature without a Constitution can have to make Con checks and that bonus would apply to those rolls (whereas they typically would have no modifier).
So yes, you can actually add bonuses to an ability, an ability score, or the use of an ability that you do not have, but again, that is not what the discussion is about.
You also have to understand that the FAQ replies to a specific ability and is answered in context, even the example sticks to the context. You can claim it can be extrapolated upon, and there's nothing wrong with that, but you also have to accept that with the sheer number of abilities, FCB benefits, and varying options that it's also reasonable to understand there can exceptions even to a general statement. In fact, I believe the consensus is that there always will be.
There are enough precedent examples of exceptions... there are enough FAQs on things that seemed 'clear' to most people that do the actual opposite... and there are enough errata and corrections (just ask Claxon why) ...that being upfront and willing to ask a question should not subject someone to derision and insults. (Not that you have done so, but I think you can clearly see there are those who claim someone has to be stupid, have no common sense, or be an agent of the Apocolypse to want to discuss something.)
Thank you, Ragoz:
If what you were hoping for was for a line of people to come out and say'Yeah, Ragoz has it down cold!' or 'Ragoz has solved all the problems!' after your post, then all I can offer is, 'Thank you for posting. It's people like you who take the time to contribute to discussions politely that make the community better and people who don't question or explore new ideas and instead just accept everything from laziness who actually contribute nothing.'
Pizza Lord, I applaud your creative reading of the Favored Class Bonus.
Heck, you may even be logically correct, despite all the negative reaction you're getting and will continue to get.
At the end of the day, though, you're probably going to find that most people (myself included) believe it's intended to only apply to abilities you already have.
Yes, this is where RAI comes into play despite how fixated on RAW the forums sometimes seem to be.
Select one arcane school power at 1st level that is normally usable a number of times per day equal to 3 + the wizard's Intelligence modifier. The wizard adds +1/2 to the number of uses per day of that arcane school power.
I mean, if it is just supposed to advance your currently existent School Power, then why not word it that way?
And I don't really see why people seem so against allowing this. It's still not a good choice when you have a d6 hit die and a penalty to constitution. Is a force missle really better than +2 hit points?
Force missile no but the 3 School powers that are better than all the others are worth Way more than a feat. That being teleportation, forsigth and admixture in case you ditent know.
I did not say that adding a school power (or domain power or bloodline power) was the same as adding the entire school power set.
On with the discussion.
Can we agree that a 3+/day 1st level School Power is equivalent in utility to a 3+/day 1st level domain power and similarly equivalent in utility to a 3+/day 1st level sorcerer bloodline power?
If we can, then this argument may clarify, if not, then skip this post.
I chose a poor example in my prior post. Gaining the use of a 1st level bloodline power (not your own) comes at a high cost: minimum character level 3, minimum Cha 13, Skill Focus X, and Eldritch Heritage. Even then, it comes at -2 effective level.
Two selections of a FCB should not grant you a similar ability as that granted by 2 feats with level and stat requirements. The human rogue FCB is equivalent to 1/6th of a feat (Extra Rogue Talent), and you do not gain the use until all six selections have been made. The use of two FCB selections to grant access to powers to which you do not have acccess to and above and beyond your classes 'one time selection' is not a legal use of the FCB.
That is the end of my argument. What follows are examples of how the logic applied in the original question would be misapplied elsewhere.
First, however, I went to the source material for this, not the d20pfsrd.com site. The elf and gnome wizard FCBs are not written a few lines later, they're chapters apart. In fact, it is not the Elf Wizard FCB that is an anomoly, but the Gnome Wizard FCB. All other core race-class combinations with similar FCBs are written as the Elf Wizard FCB.
Now, let's take the half-orc (some of these are more egregious than others):
+1/2 bomb damages does not grant Bombs to a Vivisectionist
+1 rage rounds does not grant the Mad Dog rage earlier (nor can it be take before 4th)
+1 HP to mount does not grant the Daring Champion a mount (nor, RAW, grant a bonus to the Huntmaster's AC)
+1/2 domain power does not grant an extra domain power (the focus of this thread)
+1 HP to AC does not grant an AC to a ranger who selected his team as his bond
+1 skill rank to familiar does not grant a familiar to a Scarred Witch Doctor nor give a skill to their mask
If there was ever a question, it would be, "Do gnome wizards who take two selections of FCB gain one use of every 1st level 3+/day power?" Hopefully, that is not a question. If it is not, then there should be no question about the more precisely worded power FCBs.
If you want to be literal, then you cannot ignore part of the instructions: "Select one school power at 1st level..." This FCB can only be taken once, at first level, and ultimately does nothing because it is only half a bonus use.
P.S. I will not be bullied for my use of English. Bullying at any age, internet or otherwise, is inappropriate.
This isn't a restriction? "If a class feature allows the character to make a one-time choice (such as a bloodline), that choice must match similar choices made by the parent classes and vice-versa (such as selecting the same bloodline)."
Hmm, you are right. Not sure why I missed that...
Given the existence of Crossblooded Sorcerer and Eldritch Heritage, I'd make up something like that in my home game...
First, however, I went to the source material for this, not the d20pfsrd.com site.
See, that would be very helpful to clear up misunderstandings. Are you saying is that it's written differently, possibly more clearly, than how the SRD has it listed? Obviously the SRD is the go-to thing while looking things up online and this could clarify a lot of trouble people may be having. If that's the case, then it's obviously something that needs addressing and correcting, which is why we seek out anomalies.
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In fact, it is not the Elf Wizard FCB that is an anomaly, but the Gnome Wizard FCB.
Exactly. As Nefreet says here right above your first post, there's always a good chance for something to be a simple mistake, an error, or miscommunication. It might actually be that when the editor was putting things together they themselves got confused, just assumed that the writer meant something else and altered it. Writers have submitted things and not found out they were placed into the game completely different than what they intended, or even submitted. It's happened before, it's happened often.
In other words, there is every reasonable and legitimate reason for a person to bring up an anomaly because, no matter how likely or small that chance might be, it could be a pasting error as someone transferred the information from the source material to the SRD, it could have been the intention of the writer for wizards that they CAN take that option, or even that Gnomes singularly were intended to be able to do something other specific races' wizards couldn't do.
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Now, let's take the half-orc...[examples]
Absolutely, all good examples (though again the context of this discussion focusing on Wizard FCBs), and I would even agree that someone who didn't have access to Arcane Schools shouldn't be able to take this. Take the Exploiter Wizard archetype. He gives up his Arcane Bond and Arcane School class features. I would absolutely agree with you (right or wrong) that he couldn't benefit from his Gnome FCB. He doesn't have access to Arcane Schools at all.
That is much different from someone who does have the Arcane School class feature. Even a specialist in Pathfinder, the exception being the SIN mage (there's always exceptions) which is based on a 3.x wizard, isn't barred from a school. Prohibited spells from that school are merely harder for them.
So I hope you can see that what's being discussed isn't actually getting access to a class feature you DON'T have, or even accessing something that's being delayed (like a Vivisectionist and bombs, or a Mad Dog who doesn't get Rage until later, or a Revelation that is specifically put off until 7th level). You do have access to the actual feature. Your wizard DOES have Arcane School, just like a rogue does have access to rogue talents even though he doesn't have the rogue talent he's gaining.
The actual Schools themselves (in Pathfinder) are not necessarily exclusive in and of themselves despite being 'one-time' selections. An Evoker is not prevented from using Enchantments, even if Enchantment turns out to be his specifically prohibited school choice.
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If there was ever a question, it would be, "Do gnome wizards who take two selections of FCB gain one use of every 1st level 3+/day power?" Hopefully, that is not a question. If it is not, then there should be no question about the more precisely worded power FCBs.
No, Blake Tiger. It is a question and it should be a question. Especially because it is worded differently and less precisely. It needs to be questioned so it can be addressed, so the game can be improved, so it can be clarified, so mistakes can be fixed. It may in fact work like everyone says, but it doesn't say that.
Also, while the FAQ being cited previously concerning Revelations is about a Class Feature the character in that example does not have, and would seem similar to what's being discusses, it can't be broadened to encompass all FCBs, even as they relate to Class Feature interactions. Why not? because:
Mark Seifter (Designer) wrote:
A FAQ has the scope that the FAQ says it has. ...no more, but also no less.
*:
*In this case he was referring to Magic Items that specifically only count as Magic for overcoming DR counting as overcoming Incorporeality or other things not specifically spelled out in the FAQ, even though the FAQ specifically went against the 'clear', 'common sense', and even 'literal' (that's right, it actually had the trifecta of all three in harmony) rules and wording of 'Counts as magic for...'.
That means that, while there may be similar questions or situations to the FAQ, (and they may even have exactly the same answer as this FAQ would) the FAQ cannot be used as a default answer beyond its scope. Its scope in this case, specifically being revelations and the FCBs for Oracles from aasimar's and elves. It does include all non-aasimar and elf FCB that match those and all other powers other revelations that match those used. It cannot be universally applied to every single class, every single FCB, or every single class feature (again, even though that may turn out to be correct.)
P.S. I will not be bullied for my use of English.:
One of the reasons my posts tend to be a bit longer than others is because I take my time to carefully write out what I am trying to convey. Though I take a lot of flak for it, I believe that brevity is not always the best thing when it comes to explaining rules, clarity is. So I've dealt with bullying as well and I will make sure anyone who does so to you is dealt with appropriately. So far I haven't had any trouble understanding what you've been sharing (though I may not agree with all of it or believe it applies accurately to what's being discussed.)
Otherwise, if we let people bully others who try and ask questions, or bully those who may not be able to convey exactly what they are confused about, maybe because of their English skills, then nothing is improved. You and I have both seen that happen and (not to play the martyr) if I have to be the one getting insulted to help someone else, I won't let it stop me from asking.
FYI -- In regard to the different wording of the gnome wizard FCB, the Advanced Race Guide updated the wording of that bonus to match the text of the elf wizard FCB.
Pizza Lord, I applaud your creative reading of the Favored Class Bonus.
Heck, you may even be logically correct, despite all the negative reaction you're getting and will continue to get.
At the end of the day, though, you're probably going to find that most people (myself included) believe it's intended to only apply to abilities you already have.
Yes, this is where RAI comes into play despite how fixated on RAW the forums sometimes seem to be.
Actually, RAW doesn't allow this to work, for several very good RAW reasons several posters have provided. RAW is not the enemy, and RAI does not enter into play here.
FYI -- In regard to the different wording of the gnome wizard FCB, the Advanced Race Guide updated the wording of that bonus to match the text of the elf wizard FCB.
So what we have, is in fact an error in how the Wizard FCB was written? And now we can bring up an error that can be corrected? That's a good thing right?
David knott 242, I think there's a lot of people who wish you had spoken up earlier. Good job and thank you for helping. :) <---smiley face
Blake's Tiger wrote:
If there was ever a question, it would be, "Do gnome wizards who take two selections of FCB gain one use of every 1st level 3+/day power?" Hopefully, that is not a question. If it is not, then there should be no question about the more precisely worded power FCBs.
And now you see why the question, that specific question, needed to be brought up? So it could be fixed. Why not just say, "Hey that's different!"? Because people (or myself) might not have the Advanced Race Guide, or might not ever look in 3 or 4 different places for different writing.
If you or I had let people just bully us into not striving ahead, we might have stopped after 2 replies and David knott 242 might never have bothered to stop in add what is it a very important piece of the puzzle. Now you can take over and pass this on to get everything fixed and I can relax again without having to hover over the 'New Reply' button, take a deep breath, and whispering "Please don't let it be another prick grandstanding for everyone," before clicking it, everytime.
Wizard and arcanist can be combined, and there is no restriction that they have to use the same school.
This isn't a restriction? "If a class feature allows the character to make a one-time choice (such as a bloodline), that choice must match similar choices made by the parent classes and vice-versa (such as selecting the same bloodline)."
I'd say that arcane school is the same type of "one-time choice" as bloodline.
I don't think that restriction applies to that case though. I admit I don't know what parent classes are (unless it's the class you have before taking a prestige class) but I don't think it refers to multiclassing. I don't see any reason someone couldn't be good at conjuration when it comes to wizardry and good at divination when it comes to a slightly different type of magic, like arcanistry.
The parent class terms comes from Advanced Class Guide. It refers to the classes that any hybrid class was based off of. Such as wizard and sorcerer for the arcanist. Or barbarian sorcerer for the bloodrager.
Wizard and arcanist can be combined, and there is no restriction that they have to use the same school.
This isn't a restriction? "If a class feature allows the character to make a one-time choice (such as a bloodline), that choice must match similar choices made by the parent classes and vice-versa (such as selecting the same bloodline)."
I'd say that arcane school is the same type of "one-time choice" as bloodline.
I don't think that restriction applies to that case though. I admit I don't know what parent classes are (unless it's the class you have before taking a prestige class) but I don't think it refers to multiclassing. I don't see any reason someone couldn't be good at conjuration when it comes to wizardry and good at divination when it comes to a slightly different type of magic, like arcanistry.
All of the classes in the Advanced Class Guide are Hybrid classes that combine features of two other classes that are called Parent classes. As Claxon said, the Arcanist has elements from its Parent classes which are Wizard and Sorcerer. At first it was ruled that you could not multiclass a Hybrid class with either of its Parent classes. For example you couldn't take levels in both Arcanist and Wizard. Later they removed that rule, but added some restrictions on how various abilities interact between Hybrid and Parent. One of those rules forbids selecting different Arcane Schools the way that SheepishEidolon was suggesting.
ACG wrote:
Parent Classes: Each one of the following classes lists two classes that it draws upon to form the basis of its theme. While a character can multiclass with these parent classes, this usually results in redundant abilities. Such abilities don't stack unless specified. If a class feature allows the character to make a one-time choice (such as a bloodline), that choice must match similar choices made by the parent classes and vice-versa (such as selecting the same bloodline).
