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Isn't that why it was set in Nakatomi Plaza?
Weeaboo Fightan Cowboys.
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Pretty sure a level 50 mythic rank 10 monk still could not do everything Jackie Chan does.
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Forum posters are too anime.
This is a smart ass thing to say, but mocking "too anime" won't take it out of the equation.
Pretty sure a level 50 mythic rank 10 monk still could not do everything Jackie Chan does.
Which movie?
Ladder foo? I think he could do it.
Once again, we are forcibly reminded how "Anime" the Knights of the Round Table (and in this case, their enemies) were. :D
To be honest, in these discussions it seems to be rare to find myths that aren't "anime". :P
Clerics are probably the most mundane class in the game.
Just ask clerics of Aroden.
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What does a non-wuxia high level fighter look like?
The current fighter
so, is the part where we start giving fixes or are we still going to mock the athletically challenged designed a game where you are SUPPOSED to emulate beings who super human prowess makes top athletes look like table top rpg designers by comparison?
The problem is any reasonable fix to martials (barring a nerf to casters) would make them "too wuxia" since wuxia essentially means fantastic. Martials in Pathfinder are not allowed to be fantastic.
Except Barbs, but have you ever seen how much people complain about them?
Honestly, if you're playing a Barbarian, and you don't feel like the strongest member of the party, you're doing something wrong.
Not really. When the druid can wave their hand and cripple an entire encounter then pounce in and mop up themselves (alongside another pouncing battle-cat), it's pretty easy to feel like a secondary character.
so, is the part where we start giving fixes or are we still going to mock the athletically challenged designed a game where you are SUPPOSED to emulate beings who super human prowess makes top athletes look like table top rpg designers by comparison?
Making crunch suggestions is easy enough, but the first step is to create the fluff that justifies it.
so, is the part where we start giving fixes or are we still going to mock the athletically challenged designed a game where you are SUPPOSED to emulate beings who super human prowess makes top athletes look like table top rpg designers by comparison?Making crutch is easy enough, but the first step is to create the fluff that justifies it.
Which, of course, is the point of this thread.
Making fun of the criticism does not make the criticism go away, nor does it address the underlying issues.
I'm playing a goliath druid with the rage domain right now and loving it! :D
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Strahd is so weeabo. Changin' into bats n stuff. Talking to wolves.
Making crunch suggestions is easy enough, but the first step is to create the fluff that justifies it.Making the fluff that justifies what? A capable martial character in a land of high magic?
... without himself being magical or supernatural, yes. Basically, we need a non-supernatural superhero.
There are literally every single cryptozoological creature in existence in the base setting
Meaning none?
Because Bigfoot is not really in existence. That's what it's cryptozooligical instead of just zoological.
Which, of course, is the point of this thread.Making fun of the criticism does not make the criticism go away, nor does it address the underlying issues.
Well I already talked about the heavy restrictions you had in the beginning, but something else is also that holds the conversation back.
I am going to take the cleric again, but seriously. Cleric is able, and only able to do all the incredible feats in the game because a deity allows and enables it. Wizard for all his power is merely another mortal drinking from the well of arcana.
Monks break this. Monks actually get supernatural powers from self-improvement alone, what is up with that?! Well it actually ties itself to the "eastern" vibe the class is really all about. And there lies a core element. Monk and his Ki are okay when viewed from that perspective, the same way Barb and Rage is okay. Both function as fonts of power that are only accepted because it is a common trope. Do not make Hulk angry.
But you cannot give Fighter either Ki or Rage. It is not appropriate. So what would be a Fighter-y font of power? Discipline? Guts?
Another point. Gunslinger's Grit. Deeds are obviously made to be thematic with the idea of the power they are drawn from. Grit never lets you do supernatural abilities. The theme of the class itself utterly denies Gunslinger from going into magic.
If you just decide to use something like Discipline for Fighter, it would thematically again tie Fighters feet to the ground, same as Grit and Deeds. What thematic force is like Rage in that it justifies supernatural abilities, but is not straight up arcane or divine?
I guess there is always psionic...
Making crunch suggestions is easy enough, but the first step is to create the fluff that justifies it.Making the fluff that justifies what? A capable martial character in a land of high magic?
There are literally every single cryptozoological creature in existence in the base setting, along with tons of deities and outsiders that have an extreme influence on the way the world works. The whole reason a druid can be a druid is because the fluff is off the rails up front; secret nature-loving cabals with preternatural relationships with animals that can transform into wild animals is exceedingly "anime" - and that's before the 9th level casting is added in.
Just saying that people are so steeped in the environment they live in is justification enough for "wuxia" abilities of super-strength or speed.
Paizo's campaign setting might in high magic, but Golarion and especially Inner Sea definitely is not. Darksword Trilogy had a world I would consider "High magic", in that world it was the norm that everyone was a magic user, the whole civilization built arount the concept of everyone being a magic user. But Inner Sea? Inconsistent Magic is the word for it. Magic is sometimes plenty, sometimes very scarce.
If merely being alive in Inner Sea was grounds for super powers, the fluff would look a lot different. The classes that get special treatment GET SPECIAL TREATMENT IN FLUFF to begin with.
Badass normal.What "power source" allows a fighter to soak up damage that would kill a rhino or lets her beat the same rhino to death with her bare hands?
Fighters are already allowed to have superpowers that just come from the numbers getting bigger. It's only the flashy ones that people...
Badass normal goes about as far as Deeds go.
Also remember that abstract stats are neutral on this matter.HP is not purely meat points after all.
By whose definition?
Sure, hp aren't purely meat points, except when they are of course. But the guy beating the snot out of the tyrannosaur with his bare hands is way into superhuman, however he's pulling it off.
HP is abstraction of overall endurance and condition of any character. Why it is neutral on this subject is that you can both play it as "fighter took rhino horn to the chest and lived" or "fighter rolled over the rhino and its horn and escaped with a graze". Both would be correct because only with variant rules do you get more crunchy and focused narrative results.
Also what if someone does not want to be considered "a superhuman" for taking down a dinosaur with skill alone? Is Lara Croft superhuman for killing a T-Rex in Tomb Raider? Or do her guns somehow count as cheating?
Sorry, I meant high fantasy - not that you are accurate in saying Golarion is anything but the highest of magic. A writer's inconsistency doesn't mean the setting filled to the brim with magic items, relics of ancient societies, and wizards that can be anywhere and do nearly anything is not high magic. I mean Elvanna, Geb, Kortash, Kaltessa, Artokus, Jakalyn, Razmir, Socorro, Baba Yaga, Tar-Baphon... there are tons of NPCs that have literally shaped the world and draw the attention of the gods.
Why is having Hercules a problem then?
Because he is divine?
Exceptional casters of magnificent power does not help when it comes to making systematic widespread magic. Consider Varisia. Just because Runelords once existed, does not make the land high magic. Even if he is standing on top of ancient lands of magic, the city guard can't do magic himself.
Consider this. If you gave Fighter arcane magic, would he merely become Magus?
I can't believe that's a question. Yes, Lara Croft is superhuman. There is no human being that can do what she does - especially in the older games.
No, she merely follow video game logic. In narrative, it is played out that she is merely athletic.
Think of the infamous "Indiana Jones survives nuclear bomb by hiding in fridge" case. Indie is not superhuman, the writing is merely silly.
And trying the same in roleplaying would just cause people to go as "wtf" and take them out of the immersion.
That is a ridiculous double standard you are holding then.
Expose it then in detail then.
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Guy survives a nuclear blast by hiding in a refrigerator -> ridiculous, destroys immersion.
Guy survives a nuclear blast by reaching into a bagful of bat guano and speaking in fake Latin -> totally realistic, builds immersion.
Except the second example is even sillier than the first one.
Because there can't be chosen/children/constructs of the divine?
Varisia is high magic. There are thousands of magic implements used by normal people throughout the country, there are hundreds of mid level magic users, and it's sitting on top of ancient magical ruins that have the power to end the world. That is high magic even if the world building makes no practical sense. The low level Varisian adventure involves a villain who was given the arm of a monster for her service to a deity.
There are already multiple ways for "fighters with magic" and magus is only one of them - both in fluff and in crunch. That's a nonsensical statement. The point is giving flexible and powerful abilities that are not explicitly magic anyways.
One of my favorite 3PP feats allows you to follow an enemies teleportation. You recognize the weakened fabric of space times and follow them into the breech.
Something I'd like to see is a higher level feat that lets you "jump good" like in Samurai Jack.
I'd say it's more a matter of wanting the game to be more "realistic" than the genre sources.
Pardon?
Can you rephrase that?
I'd say it's more a matter of wanting the game to be more "realistic" than the genre sources.Pardon?
Can you rephrase that?
There is a good portion of the Pathfinder community that want Pathfinder to be more realistic than any of the source material it draws from.
See Smash from the Air and Richochet toss.
Which, of course, is the point of this thread.Making fun of the criticism does not make the criticism go away, nor does it address the underlying issues.
Well I already talked about the heavy restrictions you had in the beginning, but something else is also that holds the conversation back.
I am going to take the cleric again, but seriously. Cleric is able, and only able to do all the incredible feats in the game because a deity allows and enables it. Wizard for all his power is merely another mortal drinking from the well of arcana.
Monks break this. Monks actually get supernatural powers from self-improvement alone, what is up with that?! Well it actually ties itself to the "eastern" vibe the class is really all about. And there lies a core element. Monk and his Ki are okay when viewed from that perspective, the same way Barb and Rage is okay. Both function as fonts of power that are only accepted because it is a common trope. Do not make Hulk angry.
But you cannot give Fighter either Ki or Rage. It is not appropriate. So what would be a Fighter-y font of power? Discipline? Guts?
Either of those would work. Or sheer indomitable will, which is traditionally what allows Conan to perform his various heroic acts. Or the ability to ignore pain, which allows him to do things that would ordinarily cripple a normal person. There are lots of options, few of which you're actually willing to explore.
The rogue is, or should be, clever. At the extreme, he should be able to turn into Batman, which is not magically, but just damn impressive. The fighter is tough, disciplined, and superbly skilled, which at the extreme can turn into a Chuck Norris joke. The ranger has unbelievable levels of woodcraft ("can track a falcon on a cloudy day'), which should make him into a combination of Natty Bumpo, every bad Indian scout from the Hollywood archives, and Simo Häyhä.
Another point. Gunslinger's Grit. Deeds are obviously made to be thematic with the idea of the power they are drawn from. Grit never lets you do supernatural abilities. The theme of the class itself utterly denies Gunslinger from going into magic.
Right. So do something superheroic that isn't magical or supernatural.
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It goes deeper, because saying bad writing or a video game can dictate that people doing impossible and superhuman things that is unacceptable is only half the story. Golarion as a whole is terrible world building. Each country and each city is so incredibly isolated and inconsistent that any attempt to justify an economy fails. All mid-high level encounters drop tons of magic items, WBL scales such that a merchant guild funded by 1 adventurer could easily afford safe global trade of goods without breaking a sweat, and yet there need to be CR3 city guards for those low level adventures so just ignore the CR17 creatures only a few dozen miles away because it would be inconvenient for them to interact.
Uh...what? This is pretty much completely wrong. Cities near each other explicitly trade and the effects of such trade are even gone into. And CR 17 creatures almost universally either don't care about nearby communities, rule them, or wouldn't have a prayer against the high level people within them.
And adventurers in the PC sense are so vanishingly rare in-setting that expecting the world to assume a lot of them is just weird. WBL is for PCs, not something that applies to random people in the world. there's an NPC WBL chart for everyone else...
The world's pretty well thought out if actually examined.
I'm all for martials being better...but the setting follows pretty logically from its premises.