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Anyone else have any ideas to make high level martials fantastic?
How about throwing a harpoon at a flying enemy and yanking them out of the air.
I find myself strangely lacking in ideas on that end. Is there a (relatively) comprehensive list of things the fighter can't do, that others can, and what that actually means? For example: Fighters can't planehop. Fighters can't travel massive distances quickly. Fighters can't fly without specific magic gear. Etc. This causes problems for adventures that rely on such mobility (needed to get to a town hundreds of miles away before some enemy, needing to cross an immense chasm, etc) Then the question is which of these problems should the fighter be equipped to solve? And finally what such a solution would look like.
2) Not really. It depends upon your feat build. Paladin smite does nothing if it hits the wrong target.
I wasn't speaking of smite. I was talking about Divine Bond, which provides a stronger bonus than weapon training to any weapon you're wielding (+1 stacking enhancement at 5, improving by +1 every 3 levels that can also give various weapon abilities instead). Like, take weapon training, make its hit & damage scale faster, make it for every weapon (not just a group), and add on some extra abilities, and you have divine bond. Smite evil is on top of that. You could drop smite evil entirely and the paladin would still be better at using a variety of weapons than the fighter.
Anyone else have any ideas to make high level martials fantastic?
How about throwing a harpoon at a flying enemy and yanking them out of the air.
Putting the cheese hat on, this is technically already possible with Hamatula Strike, since Grapple places the grappled enemy adjacent to you.
So if you toss a Rope Dart or something at a flying enemy, you can drag it down. =)
You then have to deal with CMD, so it wont work.
Either we need to divorce CMD or fix the subsystem.
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I'm really not getting into the argument with Talek & Luna. that doesn't seem to be a productive course of action. And is kinda off-topic for the thread anyway.
As for 'ideas to make Fighters and other martials good', well, I posted mine.
Antimagic tricks + Better Skill Unlocks for all martials + Better Action Economy + certain effects that mimic spells as extraordinary (or at high levels maybe supernatural) abilities.
Better Feats definitely help, too, but if you get enough other goodies they aren't as necessary.
If I remember right you said a cool skill unlock would be something like "Not able to be Divined"
Which is cool as heck.
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If I remember right you said a cool skill unlock would be something like "Not able to be Divined"
Which is cool as heck.
I was actually thinking of that as a Class Ability for Rogues and some other sneaky classes. But now that you mention it, making it an Unlock would indeed be even cooler. It'd be for Stealth, obviously. Or Disguise.
A menu of options per skill, with characters getting an expanded repertoire even within particular skills as they level seems like a good way to handle this.
It's more complex than anything martials currently get...but then, most good options that remotely compensate for spell-casting will be.
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I like the idea of expanding skill unlocks. Would it be worth giving out such abilities freely to everyone? Or should each class have a list of skills they unlock like class skills? I'm not too happy with them being locked behind the signature skill feat, although it does let the rogue currently get something special.
I think one thing to be wary of with such a system is locking a class into a set of skills because those are the only skills that they can unlock.
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I like the idea of expanding skill unlocks. Would it be worth giving out such abilities freely to everyone? Or should each class have a list of skills they unlock like class skills? I'm not too happy with them being locked behind the signature skill feat, although it does let the rogue currently get something special.
I think one thing to be wary of with such a system is locking a class into a set of skills because those are the only skills that they can unlock.
Personally, I'd allow anyone to purchase any of them with Feats, and to do so as many times as they want to invest the Feat. I'd probably also give Investigators, Bards, and Inquisitors (and Rangers, Mesmerists, and Hunters, probably...anyone with 6 + Int skill points) some advantages to doing so (maintaining them as skill classes), though I wouldn't hand them out for free in any numbers to anyone with spells.
But martials, I would give several picks for free as part of the Class much like Unchained Rogues have now, and bonuses using the skills they pick. Rogues would, obviously, just get more than other people.
I would never restrict what skills you could pick with a Feat, and wouldn't necessarily restrict the 'free' ones on the basis of class (though I might).
Weapon Bond works with any weapon you spend a Standard to use it on.
You only need to "attune" if the weapon you're using it with is destroyed (because it disperses the spirit used to enhance the weapon).
Forget flight, show me a D&D Fighter that can beat the Sun like a red-headed stepchild with a jawbone.
I wanna see a barbarian get so angry they turn water they touch into steam. Or a fighter with a rainbow sword that destroys mountains on a natural 1.
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*Glances back in*
On Mythic: I personally use the Mythic Mania trilogy for this which, while not official, was written by people who've done a lot of official stuff. It includes a lot of fixes that make the system better for everyone, and is definitely worth considering over just the Mythic Adventures book.
And this probably bears repeating, but the #1 thing I want Fighters to be able to do is impact the narrative more effectively. Magic is so amazing because it can affect the narrative in so many different, creative ways, and I generally prefer to play classes that are capable of similar things (in their own flavorful ways, of course).
To that end... I sometimes wonder if Fighter is just a bad class for the game in general. That is, the very concept of a class who fights, and does nothing else, may not be appropriate for a roleplaying game with lots of non-fighting challenges.
The Swift Action thing was FAQ'd and slated for errata (once that's actually released for Mythic Adventures, if ever). It's now a Standard Action, and that's definitely an improvement. XD
You can tell these people dislike how the current systems work by their inability to keep things "classy".
I think we kinda struck onto something with Skill Unlocks with Unchained.
Modifying and expanding that system would honestly be the cheapest and easiest way to assist less magical and non-magical classes.
Let classes select up to X skills on their base chassis to unlock
Limit the classes to ones that can only access 4th and lower spells
Expand Skill Unlock abilities so they can do more fantastic stuff
Let Acrobatics let you go full Crouching Tiger, Stealth let you bypass alternative sensory types and divination, Intimidate let you rattle the mindless, ect.
Just so you guys don't forget, I'm the one who animate dead'd this thread.
Know why?
Because for every old C/MD thread that gets revived and overrun by people looking for a chance to be needlessly uncivil and emotional over a dice game...there is one less new thread I have to index.
Your move, forums.
Design Manager
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So, how about making martials better?
I think some of the best ways of doing that have already been suggested-
1) Strengthening and broadening skill unlocks or a similar enhancement of the skill system for primarily martial / non-spellcasting characters, and nerfing or removing many skill replacement spells to make it more difficult for spellcasters to replace their martial counterparts.
2) Adding narrative tools to martial classes, such as access to guild networks for Rogues or military resources for Fighters. I think Marcus Wesker from "The Coin and the Dagger" books could be a great archetype for this; he spends a lot of time as the muscle and tactical leader of a small group, but his reputation has grown to the point that he can literally walk into a bar, announce he's raising an army, and have enough men to effectively combat a kingdom in short order as men flock to him for a chance to bask in his reflected glory.
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I think we kinda struck onto something with Skill Unlocks with Unchained.
Agreed.
Modifying and expanding that system would honestly be the cheapest and easiest way to assist less magical and non-magical classes.
Also agreed. :)
Let classes select up to X skills on their base chassis to unlock
Limit the classes to ones that can only access 4th and lower spells
Expand Skill Unlock abilities so they can do more fantastic stuff
Yep. I'd definitely allow anyone to pick up extra with Feats, too. And make 4-level casters get notably fewer than pure martials.
Let Acrobatics let you go full Crouching Tiger, Stealth let you bypass alternative sensory types and divination, Intimidate let you rattle the mindless, ect.
Well, in terms of amazing abilities, my current House Rule of reducing all the current Skill Unlocks prerequisites by 5 ranks (to a minimum of 1), already results in some pretty amazing abilities.
The Order of the Cockatrice Cavalier (Daring Champion) in my current game just hit 15th level with free Skill Unlocks in Bluff and Intimidate (my House Rules aren't nearly enough to eliminate C/MD, but I am trying some stuff). He can thus now do area effects provoking DC 25 Will Saves to not get panicked (Dazzling Display + Intimidate skill unlock), is extremely resistant to magical lie detection and alignment discernment magics, and can do DC 20 suggestions at-will (Bluff Skill Unlock).
We'd certainly need more, but the current spread can already do some cool stuff.
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So, how about making martials better?I think some of the best ways of doing that have already been suggested-
1) Strengthening and broadening skill unlocks or a similar enhancement of the skill system for primarily martial / non-spellcasting characters, and nerfing or removing many skill replacement spells to make it more difficult for spellcasters to replace their martial counterparts.
2) Adding narrative tools to martial classes, such as access to guild networks for Rogues or military resources for Fighters. I think Marcus Wesker from "The Coin and the Dagger" books could be a great archetype for this; he spends a lot of time as the muscle and tactical leader of a small group, but his reputation has grown to the point that he can literally walk into a bar, announce he's raising an army, and have enough men to effectively combat a kingdom in short order as men flock to him for a chance to bask in his reflected glory.
Yeah, I'd say those are definitely good talking points. Skill unlocks would really help spell-less classes with non-spell utility. Though it does create some potential complications with the fact that a lot of the best skill classes are also partial casters (rangers, bards, inquisitors, investigators).
Narrative tools are also a good idea, but the big problem with them is finding ways that line up nicely with different character concepts. After all, not every fighter wants to be a general and leader of armies, and not every rogue would want their own thieves guild. To keep it flexible enough for different concepts, you'd probably need to make one of those "Pick a narrative tool every X levels" types of lists. Granted, I like those types of mechanics so that's not a huge downside.
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Classes like Bards and Inquisitors already have spells to augment their narrative power. They don't need skill unlocks.
Personally I think a system that factors what level spells you have into the number of skill unlocks you can have.
9th-No skill unlocks
6th-1
4th-2+feats to unlock more
no spells-4+feats to unlock more
That and making Skill Unlocks a lot better.
Edit: The idea is that the more someone castts the more they focus on learning about and applying their gift of spellcasting. A Bard would have less need to be so stealthy he could leave a doggy treat on an alert and angry pit bulls head while for a Rogue it would be a matter of life and death. The Bard could just walk over invisibly.
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Design Manager
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Personally I think a system that factors what level spells you have into the number of skill unlocks you can have.9th-No skill unlocks
6th-1
4th-2+feats to unlock more
no spells-4+feats to unlock moreThat and making Skill Unlocks a lot better.
I did something fairly similar in my Spark of Battle homebrew that experimented with integrating Path of War maneuvers directly into the base combat system. That could provide a potential model for how to look at implementing skill unlocks.
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Classes like Bards and Inquisitors already have spells to augment their narrative power. They don't need skill unlocks.
Yeah, but a lot of people play those Classes to be good at skills, completely invalidating that seems to be less than fun for them.
I wouldn't give them anywhere near the skill options martials get, mind you. I actually wouldn't give them any free unlocks, just give them some slightly better options than spending a Feat for one unlock.
Bards, for example, I'd allow to take a Skill Unlock for Perform and also get the effects of Unlocks on the Versatile Performance skills for that Performance.
I wouldn't give them any free, and might only let them do that trick once, but it gives them something if they want to dabble in it.
Personally I think a system that factors what level spells you have into the number of skill unlocks you can have.
I'm mostly in agreement with this.
9th-No skill unlocks
6th-1
4th-2+feats to unlock more
no spells-4+feats to unlock more
I'd allow anyone to spend Feats for more, anything else results in a potential lack of logic. I mean, anyone can learn skills, if these are what skills do, you should be able to learn that even if you're a Wizard. Buying them when you have spells would just be strange and sort of a duplication of effort in most cases.
I also tend to think that some classes are sort of built with a greater focus on utility or combat. Those designed with more utility should probably get more unlocks as well.
That and making Skill Unlocks a lot better.
Well, obviously.
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Design Manager
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Yeah, I'd say those are definitely good talking points. Skill unlocks would really help spell-less classes with non-spell utility. Though it does create some potential complications with the fact that a lot of the best skill classes are also partial casters (rangers, bards, inquisitors, investigators).
To elaborate on this-
I very much agree with Insain's comment that Rangers, Bards, Inquisitors, etc. don't need extra skill unlocks, because they already have ways of complimenting their skills with magic.My solution would be this-
Start by re-evaluating skill unlocks and enhance their benefits. Enough ranks in Swim gives you a swim speed, enough ranks in Acrobatics gives you appropriate and level-scaling effects on the height and functionality of your jumping, etc. Maybe look at compound skill unlocks that are available when you have sufficient ranks in two complimentary skills, like combining Acrobatics and Fly to enable some form of cinematic aerial combat maneuvers.
Create a formula to automatically implement these skill unlocks at the levels C/MD starts becoming an issue, probably around 6th or 7th. This might be something like 2 skill unlocks at 6th, 9th, 12th, 15th, and 18th. Subtract the highest level of spells you have available from the total number of skill unlocks you should have at each level. This would naturally lead to the least magical classes having the most skill unlocks, and magic would automatically offset so that partial casters would gain some reduced benefit that reflects their proficiency with blending the magical with the martial while full casters would be essentially locked out of the bulk of the options. It would also account for multiclass characters since all it cares about is the highest level spell you can cast, not your individual class levels. This would elevate noncasters without appreciably shifting the current power ceiling.
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My personal inclination would be to supplement skill unlocks with the earlier mentioned anti-magic stuff.
At 5th, I'd give the equivalent of Spell Sunder or something like it, 10th, something more like Dispelling Strike, at 15th, something better that potentially takes out multiple spells at once ala Greater Dispel Magic. All might cost some nominal gp to use.
Then, for skill unlocks...I'd actually give one at 1st, then maybe one every 4 levels or so for most full martial characters. Skill-focused characters would get more or be able to take a few more as Talents and the like.
4 level casters might get a few less. Maybe one at 1st like everyone else then one every 7 levels? Something like that anyway.
I'm not sure I'd separate 4th level casters at all. Yeah, they do have spells but those spells tend to not be the best and are pretty ancillary. I can't really think of any 4th level caster that sits above and beyond their martial counterparts except maybe the Medium, which sort of exists in a different design space altogether.
As for sixth level casters, while I agree that they don't need anything, I'd be careful about how to handle these skill unlocks. Some of the ones people have suggested here have pretty dramatic benefits and fundamental new functionality and while I do want to see some of these underperforming classes get better, I don't want it to be at the expense of classes that are in a good spot.
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I'm not sure I'd separate 4th level casters at all. Yeah, they do have spells but those spells tend to not be the best and are pretty ancillary. I can't really think of any 4th level caster that sits above and beyond their martial counterparts except maybe the Medium, which sort of exists in a different design space altogether.
Eh. Rangers can get nondetection at mid to high levels. Paladins can fly. Bloodragers get all kinds of stuff. I think they should get some stuff, but not as much as people who get no spells at all.
As for sixth level casters, while I agree that they don't need anything, I'd be careful about how to handle these skill unlocks. Some of the ones people have suggested here have pretty dramatic benefits and fundamental new functionality and while I do want to see some of these underperforming classes get better, I don't want it to be at the expense of classes that are in a good spot.
This I agree with, which is why I'd give most 6-level casters some potential to utilize the new system, but have it cost resources rather than being automatic (like my Bard example above). That way if they feel overshadowed by it or it winds up too powerful, they have a way to get involved in it, but it should cost resources, so that if they're already doing fine they likely won't bother.