To start another rambling... Grounding non-magic classes in reality and saying that a certain number of levels in such class is even roughly equal in overall capability to those in a magical class is a BIG FAT UGLY LIE.
So, the fastest answer is to add stuff to them that makes them "extraordinary", not bound by the basic rules and such. As someone wrote ago and which I strongly agree, a fighter//rogue is the very basic non-magical heroic class should consider as a bare bone structure to work with. Add full attack plus movement, STR attack roll with composite bows, DEX to damage (GASP!), DR piercing, exclusive "skill unlock" features, and/or similar EXCLUSIVE stuff (the most important) to keep up in pace with spellcasting. Well, only basic because that way while it definitely trumps all NPC classes but maybe adepts, spells will still ruin its hardly won spotlight.
All the ones I can think of need a long and expensive ritual to do what a Pathfinder caster can accomplish in under 10 minutes.
The only ones that actually accomplish Pathfinder level feats are either literal Gods or in anime.
Can we think of examples of such characters? Casters quickly and easily doing the impossible and breaking reality in a high magic setting outside the DnD inspired novels and tales? Preferably in Western lit?
It's a double standard to ask for heroic martials who compete with Pathfinder casters in western lit because Pathfinder casters [i]don't exist in Western lit.[i] Well they sorta do. They're the gods in Greek myth, nigh unbeatable villains like Sauron, ect.
Pathfinder (well 3.5) took the caster of western mythology and cranked them up to 111, so asking for example martials in mythology who are even cranked up to 11 is not gonna happen.
The only one I can think of is Rand Al'thor from the Wheel of Time books. He probably has a few mythic tiers too.
But that series has a couple of bad ass martials too. Perrin who rediscovers an ancient method of crafting super magic weapons and is the only character in fiction I would describe as a possible Horizon Walker since he jumps between a "dream world" and back constantly.
And that series has Matt Cauthon who has pretty much every skill everyone on this forum says a martial should have. Super Luck, an Anti-Magic medallion, bad ass weapon skills, an inspiring commander who can ride a horse, and he has the logistical know how to run an army...or 4 in the final book. Plus hes super charismatic and got the Empress of the enemy to marry him. More like she snared him in a marriage hah!
Book has tons of examples of high level tactics and DnD gameplay. One fight between casters devolves into just chasing each other with teleports and shooting 1 shot kill spells that rip you from time itself...and undo things the person killed has done if the caster is strong enough.
The only one I can think of is Rand Al'thor from the Wheel of Time books. He probably has a few mythic tiers too.Can we think of examples of such characters? Casters quickly and easily doing the impossible and breaking reality in a high magic setting outside the DnD inspired novels and tales? Preferably in Western lit?
It's a double standard to ask for heroic martials who compete with Pathfinder casters in western lit because Pathfinder casters [i]don't exist in Western lit.[i] Well they sorta do. They're the gods in Greek myth, nigh unbeatable villains like Sauron, ect.
Pathfinder (well 3.5) took the caster of western mythology and cranked them up to 111, so asking for example martials in mythology who are even cranked up to 11 is not gonna happen.
I have not read these books, but according to the wiki he's some sort of hero predestined for greatness by birthright? His foes are probably equally fantastic I believe?
I guess someone like that may count, but I feel like it's more of the "Gods of Olympus ilk" than representative of Pathfinder casters.
Actually I'm starting to think that a character like Wiskeyjack is what people want. That swings back around to the 0e/1e ideas that a fighter level 9+ attracts and gathers followers and armies that want to fight for him.
They don't even have to actually be 'in the story' for the fight - the presence of his army or the knowledge that it will attempt to avenge him is enough to inspire awe in an opponent and demand respect. I'm unsure how to represent that kind of narrative in mechanics though off the top of my head.
This, of course, raises the question of what a HEROIC fighting man should look like if he's still restricted to no magic and no supernatural abilities. Which of course is the point of this thread.Fighter//Rogue is a closer to what a fighter or rogue should have been. Two saves, adequate skill points, feats to take advantage of the combat system, bonus damage to make up for the strength of bows in the system, and some interesting talents to get some specialization.
It's still not what I think a warrior in a high-magic world would look like, but if you insist on a no-magic-no-supernatural fighter that gestalt is about what a generic fighting man should look like.
And the problem is that most of our genre examples of that kind of character are either the equivalent of low level or in a low magic world. The mythological examples are excused because they obviously get Mythic abilities. The non-western examples get dismissed as "wuxia".
Can we think of examples of such characters? Martials competing on par with casters in a high magic setting? Preferably in Western lit?
Now that we had the above conversation can we agree that neither the martials nor the casters of western lit match the casters of Pathfinder?
By the end of the series, most of the main character channellers in that series are playing around with with high-level casting. Gating armies around. Retroactively deleting people and things from existence.The only one I can think of is Rand Al'thor from the Wheel of Time books. He probably has a few mythic tiers too.Can we think of examples of such characters? Casters quickly and easily doing the impossible and breaking reality in a high magic setting outside the DnD inspired novels and tales? Preferably in Western lit?
It's a double standard to ask for heroic martials who compete with Pathfinder casters in western lit because Pathfinder casters [i]don't exist in Western lit.[i] Well they sorta do. They're the gods in Greek myth, nigh unbeatable villains like Sauron, ect.
Pathfinder (well 3.5) took the caster of western mythology and cranked them up to 111, so asking for example martials in mythology who are even cranked up to 11 is not gonna happen.
Well yeah! I just mentioned the most powerful one >.>
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Can we think of examples of such characters? Martials competing on par with casters in a high magic setting? Preferably in Western lit?Does the Silmarillion count as a high-magic setting? Very few characters in that who rely on spellcasting, and Turin Turambar is very like an adventurer. Or Greek myth, because that's got a variety of heroes of various origins? Jack Vance has written both the Dying Earth and Lyonesse series, where magic characters aren't necessarily unbeatable by martial ones. Even David Eddings series, where the magicians are extremely powerful, has plenty of situations where the mundane characters are more useful than them.
David Eddings has remarkably few non-magical characters who go the full distance in any of his stories, with most being shed and becoming a kind of "political NPC" or learning magic to keep up once the focus of the story shifts. The need for the non-magical characters he does use is also almost entirely predicated upon the premise that the various archwizard equivalents can't cast spells without everyone else in the world who can use magic becoming instantly aware of them. Even in the few stories where nonmagical "PCs" go the distance, it's because the enemies they encounter are primarily nonmagical or low magic.
The world of Lord of the Rings is actually a fairly low magic setting compared to the world of Pathfinder (literally any world using the PF ruleset). Magic is primarily the province of outsiders or tied into race-specific abilities, and generally powerful offensive magics require costly artifice.
Jack Vance, again, was less about "nonmagical characters are effective" and more about "even the most powerful wizard only has a handful of spells available at any given moment". Emulating his world would involve massively nerfing spellcasters, and wouldn't really provide any examples for what a high level martial might look like.
Now, you could say that Pecos Bill, Paul Bunyan, or John Henry might tip-toe close to what a high-level martial should be able to emulate, but those are still very much one-trick ponies. Paul Bunyan was permanently enlarged, John Henry had ridiculous Strength and Con (and may have been a core Barbarian given that he died as soon as he won his battle against the engine), and Pecos Bill... Well, if you assume lassoing a tornado was a function of skill and not a "magic lasso", Bill might make the cut, particularly given that his legends include being able to tame virtually any animal, shoot a star out of the sky, eat dynamite, and more.
And the thing about Pecos Bill, is that even those wild and spectacular abilities are largely the equivalent of fairly low level magical effects. So if you think Pecos Bill is too over-the-top, what you're really saying is that pure martials just don't belong in the game after about 7th level or so, because you're arbitrarily limiting their possibilities based upon arbitrary preference and not balance, context, or precedent.
There is no precedent for the current high level Fighter; a completely non-magical, weak-willed character with no facility in the social or scholarly arts who is expected to defeat pit fiends? Doesn't even exist in fiction based on D&D / Pathfinder. Bruenor Battlehammer is imbued with power by the dwarven gods and has an entire kingdom at his command by the time he's tackling pit fiends, and is a master tactician and canny politician. Jarlaxle is a magical race with a multi-continental network of mercenary agents and a trove of magic items and minor artifacts. Most of the other D&D and PF authors avoid doing high level adventures, and none I aware of feature non-magical characters ascending to those levels without becoming magical. Paul Kemp's Erevis Cale books, the only "mundane" character who is arguably a PC died as soon as the rest of the characters start displaying 5th level spell equivalent abilities, and is largely dragged around relying on the magical characters to do the heavy lifting for some time before that.
A big part of the issue is that higher level PF casters aren't really emulated or modeled well in Western culture. A level 15+ Wizard can do things that members of the Greek pantheon would be unable to match. In the world of Harry Potter, even Dumbledore probably isn't more than an 11th level or so spellcaster, and the highest level spells you see are generally 5th level equivalents or below. High level casters exist on a level that is, by and large, only emulated in anime or the most fantastic myths of other cultures, so limiting martials by saying they can't emulate their own equivalent fantastic archetypes means there will always be a schism in class balance and design unless you fundamentally reevaluate the role and purpose they play in the group. You either need to be able to allow them to transcend the mundane and become fantastic at higher levels, or you need to give them a schtick that remains relevant throughout higher levels. Maybe Fighter could be rewritten to be a tactical leader, the non-magical equivalent of the Bard. Maybe you just completely replace the Rogue with the Investigator.
Ultimately, you're going to struggle to find inter-class parity as long as you have two different standards for the classes with magic and the classes without, particularly when those standards aren't even adhered to in the core game except for a few extremely prominent edge cases like the Fighter. Cavaliers get group buffs, self-buffs, and a supernatural companion with an innate and instinctual bond but are "non-magical". Brawlers can use techniques they've seen or practiced before with the same facility as a Fighter who spent potentially years mastering them, and can instantly render a foe unconscious as part of their natural class progression. Monks master their bodies so thoroughly that they can heal their wounds, harden their skin, teleport, and more.
The Fighter suffers from being mistakenly tied to a trope that doesn't actually exist, and the further a class manages to distance itself from this strange conflation of martial and mundane, the closer it generally gets to being competitive and maintaining usefulness alongside spellcasting characters. To be clear, I'm not saying "plucky, ambitious warrior who defeats wizards and demons without spells" doesn't exist, I'm saying that "largely immobile, weak-willed schmuck whose sole function is to serve as a portable veggiematic and yet is expected to be an equal participant alongside reality-bending demigods who fight demon lords" doesn't exist. Even Conan, arguably the equivalent of a 5th level or so character in Pathfinder, could perform feats that are almost utterly beyond a PF Fighter, like leaping 15 feet straight up to grab a narrow ledge (a DC 60ish Acrobatics check).
Actually I'm starting to think that a character like Wiskeyjack is what people want. That swings back around to the 0e/1e ideas that a fighter level 9+ attracts and gathers followers and armies that want to fight for him.
They don't even have to actually be 'in the story' for the fight - the presence of his army or the knowledge that it will attempt to avenge him is enough to inspire awe in an opponent and demand respect. I'm unsure how to represent that kind of narrative in mechanics though off the top of my head.
Sergeant Whiskeyjack from the Malazan Book of the Fallen series was actually one of the characters I was looking to emulate when I wrote the Battle Lord class, and the Malazan books actually come fairly close to emulating what a world with high level PF characters might actually look like. Spellcasters are common and powerful (though generally not quite as powerful as PF full casters since magic in that world tends to be more focused and specialized), and the high level martial equivalents literally have people lining up trying to give them armies or powerful political positions. Whiskeyjack specifically spends most of the first book leading a squad of specialists and avoiding being given an army by Dujek Onearm.
A skilled, intelligent combatant who specializes in coordinating and buffing allies and has an army at his disposal is definitely a great way to create a competitive non-magical character who stays viable longer and maintains relevance alongside spellcasting allies without meandering into that "too fantastic" area that seems to cause breakdowns in some people.
Are you sure Wheel of Time isn't anime? Because next to characters like that the Welsh Dragon and Vanishing Dragon of Highschool DxD sound rather tame.
I do not know if that is the case you guys intend to make, but what you saying is that removing high level (from core) all together will make the game better.
Then redesign it.
I always figured Rand's swordsmanship skills were greatly exaggerated and after he loses his hand he doesnt really have the faculties for it anymore. But thats just my opinion. And Rand's in world plot armor probably made him a better swordsman than he actually is.
Lan on the other hand...that guy was a real master of the blade.
I do not know if that is the case you guys intend to make, but what you saying is that removing high level all together will make the game better.
Well, removing high level does arguably make things more balanced but the point of this thread seems to be the opposite. Finding ways to make the fighter work at that bracket.
That said, the point can be made pretty well that the "guy at the gym" fighter is not very compatible with high level D&D and that the baseline fighter is already supernatural in a number of ways.
I knew there would be a chance to link this again.I do not know if that is the case you guys intend to make, but what you saying is that removing high level all together will make the game better.
Sure, but hear me out.
What if high level was its own set of rules?We could call it ep- I mean fantastic levels.
Now we could make a whole new class, the Fantastic Fighter
FF gets all the cool shit, and let's steal rule from Exalted.
The more awesome action you describe, the bigger bonus you get!
Doesn't 4e literally do this?I knew there would be a chance to link this again.I do not know if that is the case you guys intend to make, but what you saying is that removing high level all together will make the game better.
Sure, but hear me out.
What if high level was its own set of rules?
We could call it ep- I mean fantastic levels.
Now we could make a whole new class, the Fantastic Fighter
FF gets all the cool s~+&, and let's steal rule from Exalted.
The more awesome action you describe, the bigger bonus you get!
Well I was mostly thinking about 40k 1st ed RPG line.
One book for exploring the lowest of low of 40k, another book for being rich and space exploring, another book just for being a space marine.
I knew there would be a chance to link this again.I do not know if that is the case you guys intend to make, but what you saying is that removing high level all together will make the game better.
Sure, but hear me out.
What if high level was its own set of rules?
We could call it ep- I mean fantastic levels.
Now we could make a whole new class, the Fantastic Fighter
FF gets all the cool s@*@, and let's steal rule from Exalted.
The more awesome action you describe, the bigger bonus you get!
Part of Pathfinder's appeal is it being a very crunchy system. If making shit up as you go along was a viable solution then I probably would not be playing Pathfinder.
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I knew there would be a chance to link this again.I do not know if that is the case you guys intend to make, but what you saying is that removing high level all together will make the game better.
Sure, but hear me out.
What if high level was its own set of rules?
We could call it ep- I mean fantastic levels.
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This has come up a couple times (including in this thread). Here's the thing-
For most classes, this is already how the game works, and that's the problem. Monks become increasingly supernatural (their issues lie more in realms of effectiveness and lack of internal synergy). Brawlers can simulate more and more previously unknown martial abilities and gain increasingly fantastic abilities. Spellcasters get higher levels of spells. Barbarians can gain increasingly potent totemic abilities.
The issue is that feats and skills, specifically, are forced to comply to a level of "realism" that no other game mechanic is forced to adhere to, and they fail to scale into the new phases of the game. There aren't even that many feats with BAB 11+ requirements (almost none that actually give new abilities instead of just adding more numbers or riders to existing abilities), and similarly, there are virtually no functions for skills other than opposed checks that scale past DC 25. You end up with a minority of options that simply stop mattering after about 6th or 7th level, and yet some classes' only method of character growth is acquiring more of these resources. This leads to an issue where classes whose primary method of scaling involves acquisition of these throttled abilities, like a Fighter's numerous feats or a Rogue's 8+Int skill points, fail to progress with the rest of their peers. Resolving this means either shoring up the chassis of classes that rely on these options and making the options themselves scale better (i.e. Feats and skill uses that transcend real world limitations and are actually geared for high level adventures), or divorcing the classes from their reliance on these flawed resources and giving them new options/resources that do scale like the bulk of those available to other classes.
This has come up a couple times (including in this thread). Here's the thing-For most classes, this is already how the game works, and that's the problem. Monks become increasingly supernatural (their issues lie more in realms of effectiveness and lack of internal synergy). Brawlers can simulate more and more previously unknown martial abilities and gain increasingly fantastic abilities. Spellcasters get higher levels of spells. Barbarians can gain increasingly potent totemic abilities.
The issue is that feats and skills, specifically, are forced to comply to a level of "realism" that no other game mechanic is forced to adhere to, and they fail to scale into the new phases of the game. There aren't even that many feats with BAB 11+ requirements (almost none that actually give new abilities instead of just adding more numbers or riders to existing abilities), and similarly, there are virtually no functions for skills other than opposed checks that scale past DC 25. You end up with a minority of options that simply stop mattering after about 6th or 7th level, and yet some classes' only method of character growth is acquiring more of these resources. This leads to an issue where classes whose primary method of scaling involves acquisition of these throttled abilities, like a Fighter's numerous feats or a Rogue's 8+Int skill points, fail to progress with the rest of...
It cannot be done in the confines of the existing system because in their desire to make appeal to everyone, you cannot have everyone being a spellcaster. Because that is not always the fantasy people are looking for from a class.
One thing that needs to be said is that you cannot trick a player into casting magic while calling it "not magic". This is where the "forced realism" comes from. This is why the mocked "Weeaboo of Fighting Magic" comes from. It is the nature of the system to be able to appeal to any fantasy you want.
Shite, we got a system born out of conservatism. There is no where to go.
RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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One thing that needs to be said is that you cannot trick a player into casting magic while calling it "not magic".
How come whenever people talk about martial abilities scaling in power/scope beyond the realistic, you assume they mean "magic that we're not calling magic"? I imagine you'd be feeling a lot more traction in your dialogues if you'd stop making that leap and just take people's comments at face value.
This has come up a couple times (including in this thread). Here's the thing-For most classes, this is already how the game works, and that's the problem. Monks become increasingly supernatural (their issues lie more in realms of effectiveness and lack of internal synergy). Brawlers can simulate more and more previously unknown martial abilities and gain increasingly fantastic abilities. Spellcasters get higher levels of spells. Barbarians can gain increasingly potent totemic abilities.
The issue is that feats and skills, specifically, are forced to comply to a level of "realism" that no other game mechanic is forced to adhere to, and they fail to scale into the new phases of the game. There aren't even that many feats with BAB 11+ requirements (almost none that actually give new abilities instead of just adding more numbers or riders to existing abilities), and similarly, there are virtually no functions for skills other than opposed checks that scale past DC 25. You end up with a minority of options that simply stop mattering after about 6th or 7th level, and yet some classes' only method of character growth is acquiring more of these resources. This leads to an issue where classes whose primary method of scaling involves acquisition of these throttled abilities, like a Fighter's numerous feats or a Rogue's 8+Int skill points, fail to progress with the rest of...
It cannot be done in the confines of the existing system because in their desire to make appeal to everyone, you cannot have everyone being a spellcaster. Because that is not always the fantasy people are looking for from a class.
One thing that needs to be said is that you cannot trick a player into casting magic while calling it "not magic". This is where the "forced realism" comes from. This is why the mocked "Weeaboo of Fighting Magic" comes from. It is the nature of the system to be able to appeal to any fantasy you want.
S##~e, we got a system born out of conservatism. There is no where to go.
Yet somehow the playground of third party publishers proves that argument empirically wrong.
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Except for the fact that the game is built already with classes that get "fantastic but not magical" abilities. Cavalier's Tactician, Banner, and Challenge are all "magic not magic", as is the Brawler's knockout punch, the Investigator's inspiration, the Alchemist's bombs, etc.
There just needs to be an understanding and separation of "magic" and "extraordinary/fantastic" that is applied equally and in the context of the level the ability becomes available. A Fighter clashing his shield and hammer together to create a sonic shockwave might be disconcerting at 1st level, but should be perfectly normal and thematic at 10th level. A Rogue throwing a pick across the room to unlock a door would follow the same premise.
It cannot be done in the confines of the existing system because in their desire to make appeal to everyone, you cannot have everyone being a spellcaster. Because that is not always the fantasy people are looking for from a class.One thing that needs to be said is that you cannot trick a player into casting magic while calling it "not magic". This is where the "forced realism" comes from. This is why the mocked "Weeaboo of Fighting Magic" comes from. It is the nature of the system to be able to appeal to any fantasy you want.
Which is precisely why I'm asking people what cool things martials should be able to do. The mechanics come later.
A standard trope in the pulps, for example, is that the hero has near-total immunity to magic when it counts, because of his indomitable will. He -- and by "he" I mean Conan, Kull, Soloman Kane, John Carter of Mars, &c. -- usually also has the senses of a panther and the reaction speed of a squirrel on Red Bull, so that nothing, magical or mundane, can simply sucker-punch him out of the fight.
Neither of those are particularly over-the-top, at least in my opinion.
He's also often Batman-level crazy-prepared, having exactly the gadget he needs to deal with whatever bizarre thing he's facing and able to take absurd advantage of the terrain he's in. Again, these aren't magical as much as having the pulp writer on your side, but they're a very effective way of providing narrative power.
So I agree that simply refluffing a fireball spell as a thrown dagger won't help. But being able to throw a dagger in such a way that it snags the sorceress' robes and keeps her from casting spells is fine, and arguably Very Cool.
A Fighter clashing his shield and hammer together to create a sonic shockwave might be disconcerting at 1st level, but should be perfectly normal and thematic at 10th level. A Rogue throwing a pick across the room to unlock a door would follow the same premise.
I, personally, would be cool with either of those, although I could see the first as stepping too close to the DragonBall Q line for some.
I have to say, outside of D&D and things explicitly inspired by D&D I have never seen a Fighter with a weak will save. You know who is easily seduced and compelled through magical means in most fiction? The Bard.
I am not a customer of third party so I do not know all they offer.
This is very vague I admit, but has always been a difference between "magic" and merely supernatural. Monsters themselves are supernatural, but we do not automatically think of them as magical, even if some things are literally magical beasts. I agree Ssalarn, this is crucial. But I do not feel it can be done.
For example, why do Bards get away with magical music but Fighter could not get away with sonic waves from banging a shield? Is it because by default we consider music to be more magical? Are we culturally taught from fiction in all media that beautiful melodies carry a certain element to them that makes them easier to turn magical?
For example, blowing into a horn really loud to create that sonic shockwave might be easier for the masses to swallow than the bang on it with a hammer. It could be because it creates the idea that the horn is what causes the supernatural effect, not the person itself. Wizards and Clerics get away by having an all-powerful master behind their acts, the ultimate explanation why everything is possible. The silent agreement is made before hand which sells the immersion. Clerics are not all powerful, their god is. Wizards are not actually all powerful, the arcane is. You take away their god, or their spellbook and they are again normal. Of course, there are some powers that are not lost by those actions, but they are very few.
I feel players have a natural curiosity for an explanation that helps make sense of the fantasy. Hercules is easy to accept because he was "validated" by his godhood. Superheroes are validated by their origins. Numenera had a good system of origins for all characters.
Paizo loves those classes that need to select a bloodline/mystery/whatever. Those could be applied for all classes to create that validating element.
What about being able to break walls / trees / the floor by using fists or weapons. Where does that fall on the Wuxia scale?
For example:
Smashing the ground to create difficult terrain / spray debris at someone.
Felling trees in a single swing (potentially on-top of foes)
Or just being able to Kool-aid man through a wall.
Also funnily enough an investigator can smash through a wall using knowledge engineering (and hitting the break DC), which isn't even a magical ability
And how does Lan fare when he goes up against channelers?I always figured Rand's swordsmanship skills were greatly exaggerated and after he loses his hand he doesnt really have the faculties for it anymore. But thats just my opinion. And Rand's in world plot armor probably made him a better swordsman than he actually is.
Lan on the other hand...that guy was a real master of the blade.
He does okay. He kills them by surprise or specifically he defeats Demandred after three other's failed attempts which didnt really weaken Demandred. He is admittedly wearing a weaker copy of Matt's antimagic medallion. He uses a technique that usually results in the user's death but survives due to sheer bad assery.
Hes basically a Ranger that swapped spells for a magic bond that empowers him in exchange for bodyguard duties to a channeler.
In the 3.5 WoT game, "Warder" is a PrC.
My group changed it to a template. Boosted STR, CON and DEX, and gave mental bond type bonuses to the Warder and Aes Sedai that bonded them.
Worked out pretty well. My char was an Aiel spearman that got bonded.
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I have to say, outside of D&D and things explicitly inspired by D&D I have never seen a Fighter with a weak will save. You know who is easily seduced and compelled through magical means in most fiction? The Bard.
"I've trained myself to the point of being able to wield most know weaponry with expert efficiency, and to be able to effortlessly swim in the roughedt seas in full plate made of stone with ease. My shield can block a number of nefarious spells, and my blade can cleave and hinder multiple foes in succession, all while I strike intimidating fear into the hearts of my enemies from the pure perfection of my form and its killing efficiency...
But dat succubus tho."
What about being able to break walls / trees / the floor by using fists or weapons. Where does that fall on the Wuxia scale?
Well, I'm not the arbiter of things wuxia, but I think it seems reasonable up to a point.
I'm not really happy with Obelix pushing over a full-sized oak but I'd have no problem with Kool-aid man crashing through a non-load-bearing wall. I've tried to avoid discussing mechanics, but this could be really easily handled with something like a +2/level bonus to breaking objects or damaging items, which by 20th level would mean that a fighter could snap a 4x4 in half like a cracker or casually stroll through a brick wall.
If you wanted to turn this into a burrow speed (John Henry here), that would also be fine by me.
I feel like Weapon Master's Handbook helps make Fighters feel more like a weapon master, gaining bonuses from just being that will trained. Weapon Tricks help as well, but, as weird as this sounds, it feels like there aren't enough feats, ya know? I recently mocked up a Spear Dancing Style Fighter, because I'm in love with the imagery and flavor, but I scarcely had room for Combat Reflexes or even Weapon Spec, let alone Weapon Tricks, Weapon Mastery feats, dazzling display feats of even more flavorful things like Spear Dancer.
I concede I was trying to get the most I could out of TWF WITH a style tree that has a lot of pre-reqs, and the style tree offers good options on and off itself, but still, I almost feel like a Fighter should get a Weapon Trick free with a Weapon Training selection. I mean, the class feature is Weapon Training, it only makes sense that fun tricks would cover along with said training.
As for the original intent of the topic, well I already think the term wuxia is kind of stupid and completely arbitrary. I honestly feel like there are a lot of options to make a high level Fighter look and feel badass, with options for skills. I just wish skills trivialized skills less.
As for the original intent of the topic, well I already think the term wuxia is kind of stupid and completely arbitrary. I honestly feel like there are a lot of options to make a high level Fighter look and feel badass, with options for skills. I just wish skills trivialized skills less.
All right, how would your group of martials attack a high-level optimized wizard and his entourage?
All right, how would your group of martials attack a high-level optimized wizard and his entourage?
As for the original intent of the topic, well I already think the term wuxia is kind of stupid and completely arbitrary. I honestly feel like there are a lot of options to make a high level Fighter look and feel badass, with options for skills. I just wish skills trivialized skills less.Outside of the antimagic barbarians?
Ninjas, most likely goblin ninjas
Not really an option, I'm afraid. Re-read the opening post.
Couldn't using the Warlord (Path of War) and its archetypes fit Fighter theme perfectly.
We could just give it all Fighter archetypes. I mean, it fits the description of a Fighter and backs it up.
"Far more than mere thugs, these skilled warriors reveal the true deadliness of their weapons, turning hunks of metal into arms capable of taming kingdoms, slaughtering monsters, and rousing the hearts of armies"
1) Maneuvers letting them reveal true deadliness of their weapons at minimum.
2) Anyone can slaughter though.
3) Rousing hearts: maneuvers, plus gambits, Tactical Presence, Warleader, instead of bravery adds Cha to Will saves, Tactical flanking means he is a better warrior to flank with, Battle Prowress sort of competes with Weapon training, etc.
Can one of them be a monk? Hahah. I'm only really well versed in a few classes. I'll try to write something up later, and maybe again after Armor Master's Handbook is out.
Yeah I'm going to move on from this thread - trying to make the fighter awesome without using 'wuxia' is awesome.
Doing it while not allowing magic at all isn't the game I play. When I want that kind of game - I go to a different system where it doesn't exist in the first place. I also disagree that designing a fighter with 0 magic and 0 magic items to take out a high level wizard would actually fix anything that is currently wrong with the fighter class - which seems to be more based in narrative support and uniqueness to the group - neither of which is affected by high level magic at all (or the 20th level 9th spell level casters would be the only characters people would play).
I appreciate the thread and many of the responses people gave here though - it was helpful to work through what people actually are having an issue with rather than just 'more power'.
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Being able to redirect a spell if you save against it (or retarget someone behind you with a missed ranged attack) would go a long ways towards making cinematic combat. If I've found anything, it is that fighter damage is not bad. The ability to get into position to deal that damage is bad, for fighters as well as for rogues. If throwing a fireball at a rogue suddenly becomes the risk of the rogue leaping over the fireball and it sailing on to explode on your mooks (who you oh so carefully avoided targeting originally)...well, more considerations start coming up. Do you fling death magic at a fighter who might shrug it off hard enough that it rebounds on you? Does the half damage the fighter took from a successful save represent the fact that he caught your fireball in his bare hands and threw it back to explode in your face?
Whether that comes from allowing armor to apply to touch attacks with certain classes, or giving a defense bonus (which should have been done from the onset of d20), I'm not sure. But this ability suddenly places fighters and rogues (assuming they are the ones who get the power) back in the game, rather than having to constantly sacrifice their full attack damage potential in order to move.
Allowing skills to interact with spells better would go a long ways towards making an actual skill monkey a viable concept. Perception to beat illusions, Stealth to beat divinations, Escape Artist to bypass magic walls or abjurations, etc. All too often, a spell simply nukes any point of a skill, with their +20 bonuses, assuming they allow the skill to interact at all.
I'm a big fan of Kirth's John Carter comparisons, but I do think you should be able to let high level DnD players be solo or head of armies, and that should depend on the type/style of game you are playing. Rise of the Runelords becomes anticlimactic if you simply warp your ten thousand troops into Xin-Shalast and they murder everything in sight. So while the fighter should be able to become the warmaster of the continent and the rogue should be able to pull off crazy nonsense via their shady connections just as easily as the wizard and cleric can call in planar support, it shouldn't be a requirement.
I also stand by Kirth's statement that you need to somehow prevent CR 20s from being at the beck and call of CR 17s. You can pull off pit fiends granting favors to foolhardy wizards without providing them as controlled minions. They've snuck up 4 CRs and 7HD since the dawn of d20, quite simply they aren't the same monster that the old school stories have working for the wizard are talking about.
I'm also going to say something I don't often say...I agree with Anzyr, that making wizards (and other spellcasters) specialize would go a long way towards bringing magic back into the realms of the fantasy genre. Gandalf threw fire, drew up magic circles, broke enchantments and summoned an awesome horse, but he didn't float invisibly while casting spells through an illusion and retreat to a private demiplane the second things turned against him. Neither did Merlin. Hell, even Harry Dresden, who is a wizard in a world where being a wizard is very specifically superior to not being a wizard, doesn't just toss off spells willy-nilly, and routinely gets physically battered around. You don't need wishing simulacrums to move past the fantasy genre's expectations with PF magic. Just plain old d20 combat magic pulls that off easy.
Slowing down casting times would go a long ways towards putting magic back in the light we see it in the books. Maybe it could be highest level = spell level rounds, 2nd highest = one-half spell level rounds, third highest = 1 round and anything below that uses normal casting times. So at 1st level, your 1st level spells take 1 round and your cantrips are standard actions. At 10th level, your 5th level spells take 5 rounds, your 4th level spells take 2 rounds and your 3rd level spells take 1 round to cast. I agree with the OP premise that PF will never do this however, I'm simply stating my agreement for the record.
When I think high level fantasy settings, I think the Book of Malazan the Fallen. Within that series (and I'm only halfway through so please don't spoil it), there are fighters who literally battle gods. There is an order of monk-fighters that sent an 'army' consisting of three individuals...and they were absolutely worth a real army. The wizards can teleport, pull energy, detect/dispel magic, etc...but most of them have very specific talents with their magic. The one wizard who can pull off multiple different varieties of magic is considered incredibly rare. And when magic goes up against martial, it's anyone's guess who wins.
Apparently 80s action heroes are too anime...
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Apparently 80s action heroes are too anime...
Well yeah, who doesn't think that Die Hard looks like a silly unrealistic Japanese Christmas cartoon.