I would note that placing some restrictions on what players can do in edge cases like broken mass symbols is worlds away from 'just stealing the charChter and playing it yourself' no matter if you approve or disapprove. Some action restrictions are in a completely different galaxy from what you said.
Restrictions and houserules on what players can do is fine.
But I literally quoted him saying "What you're doing isn't heroic your character is now an NPC I control".
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So in 2nd edition fighters had crap social skills,This is simply untrue. In 2E, everyone had either no social skills, since they didn't have skills, or was using their real-world social skills (or occasionally magic). And everybody got basically the same nonweapon proficiencies when they introduced those. I mean, technically Fighters got three instead of four, but they advanced at the same rate and weren't based on a bad stat.
So...in that edition, pretty much only Rangers and Thieves meaningfully had more skills or skill-like things than the Fighter.
And, IMO, that's the biggest thing they lost between editions. Being just about equal to everyone else at out-of-combat skills.
He's thinking of 3e, where cross-class skills cost double. no such mechanic in 2e.
==Aelryinth
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To be fair, if blasting were as powerful by default in PF as it was in 1e, reflex saves would be THE most important save in the game.
==Aelryinth
Not really. It still only usually got you half damage and probably wouldn't kill you outright on a failed save, unlike many Fort saves or turn you against your friends like Will saves.
Another part of the shift from AD&D->3.x was that saves used to get easier to make as you went up levels. Now, if anything, they get harder, since you've always got a bad save and it's easier to boost DCs than saves. Part of why blasting was king in AD&D is that you usually got at least half damage so you didn't waste spells when they saved.
The boosts to low level wizards were appreciated, but they carried through to high levels where they weren't needed and other changes that seemed intended just to make the system more consistent also wound up boosting casters.
Still, none of this is directly related to making high-level martials better, without making them "wuxia".
You're not in proper perspective. I specifically said "as effective as they were in 1e."
When EVERYTHING had less hit points, and spells scaled unlimited.
A wizard getting hit with a fireball of the same level was save or die, basically. And that's an AoE, remember?
A theif getting hit was save or die, basically.
A cleric could be wiped out if the fireball rolled well. He'd be finished with the follow up magic missile.
A fighter would probably live through it. A second one had a good chance of toasting him.
And guess what? You stopped gaining hit dice around 9-11th level, on average. So direct damage got MORE effective against you as levels went higher.
A wizard/20 had a maximum of 75 hit points. Absolute, with a 16 con. A 20 HD fireball doing average damage puts him at 5 hp. A meteor swarm did 100 hp dmg and forced four saves to mitigate the damage.
IN 1e, Direct Damage was freaking awesome. Even if they saved, and they would save at higher levels, you still DID something to them. If they didn't save, they had big, big problems.
This was true for you as well. IF they threw a save or die at you post 12, odds were you were going to save and they just wasted an action. If they tossed direct damage, you were still going to save...and unless you were a thief, you were still going to take a bucket of damage.
And monsters generally tossed breath weapons and blaster damage at you more frequently then save or dies. Also, there were a LOT fewer resources for staving off energy damage, particularly acid. For instance, only druids had spells that could stave off lightning, and no core magic items did the same! There was no way to avoid acid dmg except that one oil in Unearthed Arcana (black dragons sucked thereby).
So, you have to take it in context. Compared to PF, you'd have to say all damage is Maximized and without a cap, to get a feel for what you were up against. You know all those Blaster builds for mages? That's what all direct damage was like, all the time, for 1E wizards. You didn't need any metamagic, it was that dangerous right out the gate.
Seriously, a Hill Giant had 8 HD +1-2 HP, or about 37-38 HP. A level 10 caster doing average dmg with a lightning bolt is 35 hp - a good roll is save or die. At level 12, it's save or die for the hillgiant at 42 hp dmg. Nothing special, ANY spellcaster could do the same.
if the giant saves, he's still half dead. One good arrow or whack witha weapon, down he goes. And it's an AoE. Two fireballs would clear an entire room of the things!
DD was really, really strong in 1E. When they started upping HD in 2e, and then handed out con bonuses all over the place in 1e, plus put in caster caps, DD got nerfed HARD.
==Aelryinth
Oh, and then they introduced the spells Empradweomer adn Devastate, adn the Radiant Arch spell. If you want to talk about one shot kills, those spells definitely did it for you.
Empradweomer maximized all dice and imposed a -4 to the save, -20% to magic res. Devastate was -5 to saves, +2 per die of damage, and -25% to magic res. Radiant Arch was d6/level, +1/die vs specific types of foes depending on the color you picked...and lasted for multiple rounds with a hilariously long range.
Yeah, DD was as effective in 1e as fighters were. Both got the nerfbat hard.
==Aelryinth
I have only read about half of this thread yet, but here is my attempt.
>The party is not allowed to do anything "wuxia," "weeaboo," "anime," or similar derogatory words.
Oh, that's easy. I have no idea what those words mean, therefore I can't make my party do those things. Logic!
Party consists of a dragonrider(ex-fighter), a rogue, gunslinger and a brawler. At first I was going to describe the action, then I realised I was kinda meh at that, so I'll just describe the abilities.
Fighter:gets a dragon. I think this is fairly straightforward. Other people have already mentioned this.
Rogue:~constant invisibility, ability to grant it to others for a short time, SLA darkness, ability to teleport through shadows, immunity to divinations, ability to make others forget that he even exists(for a limited time) unless they make some sort of precautions(e.g. write "THERE IS A lv 18 ROGUE AROUND" in blood on their hands or something.) or he makes some REALLY obvious move(stealing keys from a guard doesn't break the effect, opening a door while someone else is watching doesn't, blowing up a fortress will)
Gunslinger:Crafts. A lot. Maybe he has a bunch of guns, maybe just one that can switch modes. His ammunition has different effects(exploding ammo, poisonous ammo, shells that dispel, shells that do other stuff, etc). His gun/guns can be a fast machine gun or a sniper rifle or a damn Gustaf Gun depending on the circumstances and on what he feels is appropriate. If wizard can call down meteors from the sky, gunslinger can shoot them(as in shoot meteors at people, not shoot meteors, though that is possible too) from 4km away while drinking tea.
Brawler:short-range clairvoyance and omniscience. Basically, if he gets close to you, you have no chance to hit him. You try to shoot him, he has already(3 seconds before your decision) thrown a stone in the way of your arrow/ray. You try to trip him, he easilly avoids it. You use blinding spells, he ignores that because he doesn't need sight. You try to teleport, he knows where you teleported to because he effectively read your mind. Mechanically this would translate into lots of free immediate actions and ability to do lots of stuff with those immediate actions, plus clairvoyance.
P.s.
>To use clearer terminology than "wuxia", we're meant here to invent abilities and the sort that are not "cartoonishly" disrespectful towards physics. It should be vaguely believable that a real-life paragon could, on a very lucky day, achieve something like this. See it as the Action Hero Rule. Surviving an explosion by going into a fridge? Works.
-Kobold Cleaver, Jul 9, 2015
My engineering education looks at you with contempt, if you are referencing the fridge scene I think you are referencing. That one was about as wuxia as it gets.
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By "wuxia" does one mean "cinematic"?
By "wuxia" does one mean "cinematic"?
Not quite. It's a particular type of cinematic style associated with Asian martial arts movies and cartoons. I'm not one of the people that I hoped would participate in this thread who are complaining about effective fighters being "too wuxia" or "too anime," so I'm not really qualified to offer a formal definition.
But if I did offer such a definition, which I am still not doing, it would start with "any action-movie sequence that can't be filmed without CGI or wire-work." (As I wrote earlier in the thread, but it's worth repeating.) Thejeff offered a similar definition: "If you'd [not] believe Jackie Chan doing it."
If these links still work, here are some classic examples of wuxia, all from the movie Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon. Example 1 Example 2 Example 3
By contrast, here is an example of some stuff (also from upthread) that I do not consider to be wuxia (in this sense). My understanding is that this is all done without wires: Example 4
There's lots of cinematic stuff that's not particularly wuxia. I don't remember seeing Errol Flynn run up walls, balance on the top of a candlestick, or jump three hundred feet across the gap between ships. No one had to step on his feet or grab his belt to keep him from flying away.
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My response to that is
"Well having someone wiggle his fingers and toes chanting for a fireball, conjure a quickened fireball, drop prone, tell his party to watch out, jog 30 feet, and quick draw a mithril buckler" is way too wuxia for me too.
Design Manager
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My response to that is
"Well having someone wiggle his fingers and toes chanting for a fireball, conjure a quickened fireball, drop prone, tell his party to watch out, and quick draw a mithril buckler" is way too wuxia for me too.
Word. Full casters are the most ridiculously anime thing in the game. You can make almost every character in the Naruto: Shippuden anime by using the Wizard or Cleric class and just changing "wizard" to "ninja" and "magic" to "chakra".
The issue isn't "X is too anime/wuxia" (there's tons of anime tropes that they willingly accept in the game), it's that some people suffer from a combination of xenophobia and an inability to internally separate "fantastic" and "magical".
Magus is the most weaboo class in the game.
You can literally full attack someone then teleport away using spell combat. How is greater bladed dash via spell combay not the most weeb thing in Pathfinder.
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My response to that is
"Well having someone wiggle his fingers and toes chanting for a fireball, conjure a quickened fireball, drop prone, tell his party to watch out, and quick draw a mithril buckler" is way too wuxia for me too.
Which is a perfectly valid preference. Just not a helpful one in this discussion.
Some people like casters magic and their martials non-magic. Others are perfectly happy with the martials having a kind of magic of their own and getting to do all kinds of wacky stunts and things.
Others like low magic games. Or no magic at all for that matter.The point of this thread however was not to bash each other for not having the same preferences, but to find ways to make high-level martials more effective while still allowing the non-wuxia people to enjoy them.
That's a non-start. A wizard or magus is full on wuxia, so it is purely hypocritical to use different standards.
It's funny that casters can move at super human speeds, but martials break immersion for doing anything superhuman.
The problem is more about presentation than what powers someone can use.
Anime tropes. Teleporting is not inhenrent anime, just Instant Teleport with how it is used and presented. Or rather the "OH NO HE IS SO FAST HE APPEARED BEHIND ME!" trope very common in anime. On the other hand, "Beam me up Scotty" is not anime.
You have to be trope savvy if you want to avoid the tropes that might grind people the wrong way. "Too anime" means something to people, it is not just hot air. People just do not know a better way to describe it what they don't want.
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I don't think Insain is being malicious. I think the point is that it's kind of dumb to say, "Because magic" and excuse ANYTHING that is ostensibly over to top, badass, anime, wuxia, whatever, but go bananas or feel disconcerted when a Fighter gets ricochet toss and is doing fantastic things via his Weapon Mastery . It's also weird that barbarians are excused, but Cut from the Air is wuxia.
It's so arbitrary and doesn't make any kind of meaningful advisement or discussion. Whenever I see "wuxia" or "anime" I just see Wrong-bad fun.
Edit: In a rush.
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It's more the dichotomy of the Fighter and the "Weeaboo" Wizard being presented in the same game and setting as equally fantastic characters. When they are clearly not on equal grounds in that regard.
It's that half of the classes are seem to be playing playing with one set of assumption while the other is playing with totally different ones. And not all are allowed to be equally fantastic because in the case of martial classes "reality" and "common sense" has to apply.
Jiggy had an excelent post on it
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It's so arbitrary and doesn't make any kind of meaningful advisement or discussion. Whenever I see "wuxia" or "anime" I just see Wrong-bad fun.
Pretty much this. It's really just a way to say "I don't like it" That carries a couple ugly overtones.
RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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It's really just a way to say "I don't like it" That carries a couple ugly overtones.
Specifically, racism.
EDIT: Lest I be misrepresented, let me point out that I am NOT saying "I don't like it" is racist. Rather, summarizing it as "too anime/too wuxia" takes the "I don't like it" and specifically makes it about country of origin instead of about the nature of the content. Sort of like how it'd be fine to not like fried chicken in your Pathfinder setting, but less fine to call it "too African".
It's more the dichotomy of the Fighter and the "Weeaboo" Wizard being presented in the same game and setting as equally fantastic characters. When they are clearly not on equal grounds in that regard.
I keep seeing this word used. Lets re-write that sentence using what it means and see if it even makes sense.
"It's more the dichotomy of the Fighter and the "Person that likes Japan culture so much they try to emulate it" Wizard being presented in the same game and setting as equally fantastic characters."
The only use of that word that works in context is to somehow associate people who like japanese culture as being something to scorn. I get 'wuxia' and even 'anime' both are cinematic styles (that are very similar - although one is chinese and the other japanese) - at least they have a context. Weeaboo really is nothing more than a way to target someone as being abnormal for liking a foreign culture more than there own. Might as well call everyone that celebrates St. Patrick's day a name as well - it's really just not useful in any discussion about the topic honestly.
Of the many disciplines in Path of War only about 3 or 4 of them actually let you do stuff considered fantastic.
Anyone who thinks initiating works like casting has no idea how initiating works.... It just uses the same format for how the abilities are described because it's the most efficient way to describe large numbers of abilities with the right level of detail. They do not play like casters, they do not act like casters, and how manoeuvre are used are different to how spells are used.
I'm actually pretty sure people wouldn't have associated initiating with spellcasting at all if it wasn't for ToB calling it friggin blade magic -.-
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It was a reference to comments like "You can make almost every character in the Naruto: Shippuden anime by using the Wizard or Cleric class and just changing "wizard" to "ninja" and "magic" to "chakra". "
Given that the wizard and cleric get spells that do practically anything, I'm pretty sure you can make almost any character from any media using them.
Bab is abit of an issue when it comes to making "anything" though, until you get to high levels though where you can just use buffs/items/your mini-bab.
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It was a reference to comments like "You can make almost every character in the Naruto: Shippuden anime by using the Wizard or Cleric class and just changing "wizard" to "ninja" and "magic" to "chakra". "Given that the wizard and cleric get spells that do practically anything, I'm pretty sure you can make almost any character from any media using them.I'm sure you can.
I don't want that to be the best response to "I love this character from X. She's a badass with a sword." "Ah, best way to do that is make a wizard. "
Neither do I. Thank you for saying that.
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Telling them they're stupid and wrong for wanting that isn't a solution.
It is just rather frustrating that they're basically asking "What's a way to go through this locked door without unlocking it or harming the door in any way?"
Telling them they're stupid and wrong for wanting that isn't a solution.It is just rather frustrating that they're basically asking "What's a way to go through this locked door without unlocking it or harming the door in any way?"
Teleportation, obviously.
Still, I'm not sure that's what they're asking for.
I'm sure that isn't the intention (I mean, if it was they'd just be trolls). But that is actually how the question has gone over and over and over.
Not as much input from the crowd that actually opposes the pseudo-magic fighter in the first place.
I've been a decent amount of these discussions with people who do dislike "anime"/"celtic"/"wuxia" fighters. I mean, I've even seen people say that throwing a spear through three people is too anime... So depending on who your talking to, they might have view on the topic that they cannot even do over the top attacking. Some are just "Stop trying to put teleporting and summoning in our fighters" (who are then repeatedly told that isn't what we are asking for), but I've heard a lot from the "no-anime fighters" crowd over the years.
...I'm gonna be totally honest with you. When I think "spear through three people at once", I don't think anime. I think European mythology, maybe something Cu Chulainn or Hercules might do. It's clearly a subjective thing, but if people essentially want nothing over-the-top, then...
Uh...
Well, those characters aren't going to be able to compete in a world that otherwise is over-the-top. XD; Which most worlds in Pathfinder are. I mean, if the GM makes a low-magic setting, that's one thing... but it's hard to overcome over-the-top challenges if you insist on being totally mundane.
You'll find that much of what people find unacceptable is merely because a Paizo dev has yet to make it an ability.
Automatic Bonus Progression? Versatile Weapon Training? Great Cleave? If these were presented on a homebrew forum they would be decried as Wuxia nonsense, but coming from a paizo dev team they seem acceptable.
I mean, I've even seen people say that throwing a spear through three people is too anime...
I am like 90% sure that this happens at some point in the Iliad
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...I'm gonna be totally honest with you. When I think "spear through three people at once", I don't think anime. I think European mythology, maybe something Cu Chulainn or Hercules might do. It's clearly a subjective thing, but if people essentially want nothing over-the-top, then...
Uh...
Well, those characters aren't going to be able to compete in a world that otherwise is over-the-top. XD; Which most worlds in Pathfinder are. I mean, if the GM makes a low-magic setting, that's one thing... but it's hard to overcome over-the-top challenges if you insist on being totally mundane.
Exactly. That is also why I said "anime"/"celtic"/"wuxia".
...I'm gonna be totally honest with you. When I think "spear through three people at once", I don't think anime. I think European mythology, maybe something Cu Chulainn or Hercules might do. It's clearly a subjective thing, but if people essentially want nothing over-the-top, then...
Uh...
Well, those characters aren't going to be able to compete in a world that otherwise is over-the-top. XD; Which most worlds in Pathfinder are. I mean, if the GM makes a low-magic setting, that's one thing... but it's hard to overcome over-the-top challenges if you insist on being totally mundane.
You'll find that much of what people find unacceptable is merely because a Paizo dev has yet to make it an ability.
Automatic Bonus Progression? Versatile Weapon Training? Great Cleave? If these were presented on a homebrew forum they would be decried as Wuxia nonsense, but coming from a paizo dev team they seem acceptable.
You'd think so, but when Ricochet Toss was released there were an uncomfortable number of people declaring that they were either going to ban it or change it so that it only works with bludgeoning weapons.
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So, this attitude is similar to "too MMO"?
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If smash from the air is too anime then address me as Rhedyn-chan.
Edit: @Atarost. Spears go through multiple people in real life. It's called a ballista and PF fighters can already use and carry such weapons. Your complaint amounts to not wanting Fighters to perform the feat with thrown weapons.
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*Snip*
"People of the jury, I give you exhibit a".
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*Snip*"People of the jury, I give you exhibit a".
aka people who took highschool physics and think they are engineers.
*Snip*"People of the jury, I give you exhibit a".aka people who took highschool physics and think they are engineers.
Hey, I was promised a jury of my peers! I took several college physics classes and I am an engineer! Where's my graph? What's the surface tension of pathfinder races skins? How do special materials affect friction? Does magic affect drag? I expect a report by Monday! LOL :P