I'm just curious, has anybody ever played a Pureblooded Azlanti before? If so, RP-wise, how did it go? I'm thinking about asking a GM if I can play one in a campaign and wanted to see if anybody had any advise for the best ways to go about this idea.
Had a player with one in a store game last year (?, or the year before?) and was less than impressed. Somehow the character was a clone from ancient Az DNA found in a previous game. She basically spent 12 of her 20 points just being an Az, leaving just 8 for working out her stats. I think she switched to an Elf after a few games.
i actually had a rather cool idea for a character involving the pureblooded azlanti, the character would need to be in a Wrath of the Righteous game but the idea is that they are a Possessed Oracle who are possessed by shard of Aroden's soul, as they mythic rank up the shard of Aroden would grow more and more powerful while i would be taking Divine Source with my mythic powers and the clergy of Aroden around the world find their magic coming back to life. The reason for pureblood was mostly just an story choice to represent the power of Aroden affecting this character even from birth. (Sorry if it sounds crazy, its one of my more grandiose character concepts)
If a Player wants to be a pureblood Azlanti for a background story that is fine. I would not however allow the +2 to all stats. When I run I use a 25 point buy because I like powerful heroes. Just take the normal human race and use the points to buy at least a 12 in every stat. Or at the least don’t buy down any stats. When one player is significantly more powerful than the rest the game becomes a lot less fun.
Having racial bonuses to every stat isn't really that gamebreaking. I mean, let's be honest, most casually optimized characters have high stats in their main stats. You're just adding +2 to your dump stats, unless you're super MAD. It's only sick when combined with the Human feat, skill point, and wide variety of alternate racial options. If the GM dings them the feat, I can't see them being that attractive a choice.
The RP side, man, I don't even know where to start with that. You're basically contradicting PF canon by saying "yes, there's pureblooded Azlanti left, besides scary old casters". Where do you come from? Why aren't there more of you? What is your culture like, and how are you different from regular humans? I mean, you basically have to make up the circumstances allowing you to exist as a pureblood, and then invent the culture around those circumstances.
Well me and my GM where discussing a potential upcoming campaign where we the party would all be Azlanti. The story being that a Wizard did it, by it I mean created demi planes with time effects that allowed thousands of years to exist outside but only a few hundred inside. This was going to be due to a political belief shift. Basically the 'leftys' ran off and hid in these pocket dimensions/demi planes to wait out the 'right wingers' insanity and just got complacent and didn't want to leave of care what happened outside their pocket. Well eventually the party would be formed and sent into the main world to try to see if any other pockets survived and if so to bring them news and help arrange a new Azlanti revival. If not... well what do we do now would be on a lot of minds.
Yeah, I definitely wouldn't allow one for the stats alone not to mention the lore of the setting basically says it is impossible.
I personally have played a descendant of one with violet eyes. Human, draconic sorc, threw 12 into every stat to represent the heritage. He was the result of the breeding experiments done by Mengkare on Hermea before he left to pursue a life of adventure and exploration. Far from pureblooded still though!
Yeah, I've played as a Pure blooded Azlanti before. In a certain campaign (Shattered Star) there is a ...
... Azlanti. However, unless this happens there is little chance you can play as a pureblood Azlanti, only a descendant. I happened to be a Rogue and to be honest ... I was quite pleased...
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Having racial bonuses to every stat isn't really that gamebreaking. I mean, let's be honest, most casually optimized characters have high stats in their main stats. You're just adding +2 to your dump stats, unless you're super MAD. It's only sick when combined with the Human feat, skill point, and wide variety of alternate racial options. If the GM dings them the feat, I can't see them being that attractive a choice.
Well, the idea is that you make it easier and cheaper with your non main stats. You make secondary stats WAY cheaper, and you can even dump without any actual penalties. Here is an example:
STR: 10 DEX: 14 CON: 14 INT: 20 WIS: 10 CHA: 10
That is a FIFTEEN point buy without any 'dump stats' (compared to a normal human), decent dex and con, and TWENTY int.
To get the same scores in the primary and secondary stats for a regular human wizard on the same point buy, you need this:
STR: 7 DEX: 14 CON: 14 INT: 20 WIS: 7 CHA: 7
Or a guy that is near mentally crippled, and they can barely even lift his clothes (which is fairly normal for wizards, if you listen to the optimizers).
Overall, pureblood makes it so that you can have super good investments in your mainstat, and you do not even need to pay the price in true dump stats. IT is the difference between a well rounded character adn an idiot savant.
I cannot tell if that is condemnation or praise
This is a total tangent, but everyone seems to think that a str 7 or 8 wizard is so hilariously weak, as you said, "can barely even lift his clothes". A character can lift double his max load over his head, if he's not doing anything else. How many of us can lift 200 pounds over our heads while holding down an office job and not lifting on our own time? That's a str 10 Wizard. That seems kind of super generous for "average". Perhaps your average Golarian is much more physically conditioned, or perhaps Golarians are just stronger than us Earth humans.
Your "can barely lift his clothes" strength 7 Wizard can still squat 140 pounds, which feels pretty good for the lowest playable human, or a guy whose strength is one notch lower than "has trouble even lifting heavy objects". I mean, I'm sure few of us would be impressed. How about walking around all day with a 33 pound backpack "light load" and covering 24 miles in a day?
I'm not convinced that a 7 in strength means all that much.
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To be true to lore and for balance I'd recommend you play a Gillman, especially with the Throwback racial trait (so no water dependency gills, weird skin, and indeed a "throwback" to before they were modified by Aboleths) and give him violet eyes. Gillmen are the closest thing to a descendent of the Azlanti, the book Liar's Blade has some information on them regarding this.
edit: now all I can think of is Violet eyes, are watching you,
Violet Eyes, are watching you watching you...
Or play a Chelaxian or Taldan human with an Azlanti appearance and select the Dual Talent racial trait. Better yet, play an Aasimar with Scion of Humanity and replace your spell-like ability with a bonus to an ability score not already boosted by your race -- that gives you +2 to each of 3 ability scores and no penalties, and you can pass for human.
Yeah, I fumbled the rules on overhead lifting, my bad. Still, 7 str does not seem at all crippling in the context of modern society. I'm sure the vast majority of us know someone with 7 strength or lower (and who isn't a child or invalid). In an adventuring context, it's more relevant, but still. Check encumbrance? That's what fighters and other beasts of burden are for.
*sigh*...alright, forget that, here are your extra broken stats for a 15 pt buy then
STR: 9 DEX: 16 CON: 16 INT: 20 WIS: 9 CHA: 9
That is an extra +1 AC, +1 reflex/con, and +1 hp per level. That is a similar effect to taking dodge, toughness, and extra traits to take two of the save boosting traits. As in, it replicates the effects of three feats.
Meanwhile, you barely have a penalty in anything.
Stats alone can be fairly powerful. Combine that with the typical feat and extra skill point, and yes, azlanti are broken.
Honestly, I was just wondering about role playing opportunities and things. I know that the +2 in every stat can be a bit much, but I guess I should have said that the GM I used to play with is fond if giving various templates like the half-dragon and animal lord, and using the Mythic rules when they came out, and that's what I'm used to playing with, so the +2 wouldn't be much of an advantage.
Even if the +2 bonus on every stat was not overpowering, which it is. That is not the point; the point is that it is not fair to the other players. As a GM you are not supposed to be playing favorites. When a player creates his character he should be limited to the same rules and restrictions that all other players live by.
Besides there is no in game way to tell the difference between a character who used his point buy to boost all stats vs. one that gets a racial bonus on all stats. Without doing the math can you tell if a character with STR 12, DEX 14, CON 14, INT, 12, WIS 11, CHA 18 is getting the +2 per stat? Since a player is free to choose physical characteristics like eye and hair color there is no way to tell the difference between a character who is getting +2 per stat and any other character.
If you want to play a pureblood Azlanti because it fits your concept great. Just don't expect the +2 bonus per stat.
I was never saying it was fair, just that if it lacked the bonus feat, a lot of builds would rather have other things.
But yeah, the RP is going to have to be completely homebrewed, but unless you have a cultural heritage as well as the biological one, you're just going to be a human but better.
Then stranger how do you run humans I mean that bonus feat is powerful? What do you make them play half elf and just have them say they are human?
Or just start them 1level behind and let them by it off between 4-5 to be equal. Or yeah one step lower point buy.
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Not in a standard campaign (assuming fairly close to core races).
In a campaign where all players are balanced to such a racial upgrade, it would be no different than some of my other almost over the top campaigns (PCs allowed to use half-dragon, half-celestial, or other half blooded templates, etc.)
The campaign should adjust to the power of the PC, though PCs should not have undue advantage over other PCs or favoritism shenanigans could cause group friction. In other words, if everyone played aslant humans, go for it. If everyone else was a standard core race, they might cry unfair at the one PC with an alzant human.
Then stranger how do you run humans I mean that bonus feat is powerful? What do you make them play half elf and just have them say they are human?
I allow any legal race except maybe noble drow. I did not say everything had to be perfectly even, just that anything completely out of balance would not be allowed. If someone wants to play a pureblooded Azlanti they play a standard human. I also use a 25 point buy for all characters so the PC’s are already substantially above normal. Having a character start with 19, 16, 16, 14, 14, and 10 for stats is a little much. That is equivalent to a 43 point buy. A character with 18, 14, 14, 14, 10, 10 or maybe 18, 14, 13, 13, 12, 12 is a lot better.
Humans are already one of the most powerful races. Giving them an option for +2 to every stat is going to mean no one bother playing anything else. The whole point of a background story is not to make your character more powerful, but rather to give him some individuality and uniqueness.
Then stranger how do you run humans I mean that bonus feat is powerful? What do you make them play half elf and just have them say they are human?
What? Do you think that half elves don't have their tricks?
Half elves are arguably the best race for shoring up weak will saves.
They have an option that provides them with a straight +2 to will saves. They also have the elven immunity deal which gives a +2 vs enchantment effects (ie- the "Kill your whole party" spells).
That is a fantastic basis for boosting will saves. While dwarves can match it with similar saves against all spells...that requires a feat, and hardy/steel soul does not protect against supernatural abilities (ie- Vampires with dominate, which you know your GM will use if you make too many saves). Half elves have defenses against will saves in general and enchantment "effects". They are hard to strip down, and even when you do you don't remove everything.
So arguably, going half elf is like going human and spending your feat on one of those save boosting feats. And considering how scary will saves are....good choice. It also stacks with Iron will, and it is not too hard to make a freakin' fighter that makes the CASTER cleric jealous until mid levels. And you can have that all at level 1 with only mild investments.
So they are great for martial classes, as well as alchemists, bloodragers, and hunters, basically. Enough so that I get the feeling that I "have to" use half elves for any of those classes (just like how most optimizers feel they "have to" go with humans for the feat)
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+2 to all ability scores doesn't just seem overpowered to me, it also seems...kind of dull. Some races being superior to others is one thing (dragonssaywhat?), but I don't particularly care for an across-the-board "master race" - much less the notion that said master race should be, of all things, a variety of HU-MAN.
That said, I don't hate the concept so much that I'd prohibit it from a game I was running without exceptions. It seems like the best option is to reserve it for games in which your choices of character race are restricted/determined/strongly influenced by random rolling at the start of character creation - so if you have a 1d100 chart where each result is a given package of PC race options, the '100' result would include the option of Pureblooded Azlanti (or maybe that would be the ONLY option for that particular roll).
+2 to all ability scores doesn't just seem overpowered to me, it also seems...kind of dull. Some races being superior to others is one thing (dragonssaywhat?), but I don't particularly care for an across-the-board "master race" - much less the notion that said master race should be, of all things, a variety of HU-MAN.
That said, I don't hate the concept so much that I'd prohibit it from a game I was running without exceptions. It seems like the best option is to reserve it for games in which your choices of character race are restricted/determined/strongly influenced by random rolling at the start of character creation - so if you have a 1d100 chart where each result is a given package of PC race options, the '100' result would include the option of Pureblooded Azlanti (or maybe that would be the ONLY option for that particular roll).
Yeah...kind of hard to ignore the dire elephant in the room where there is a long gone 'master race' that was vastly superior to today's men, and became weak by interbreeding with other races.
....yeah......Not saying anything bad about Paizo (their write up on lizardfolk still seems like a fine piece of postcolonialism), but they did adapt a mythic element that was been...misused in the past.
It still makes me worry whether Azlanti have blond hair and blue eyes....
If I recall right, Azlanti had black hair (and red on occasion) with violet / purple eyes. So it's not an "Aryan Master Race" metaphor. It's more of an "Atlantis Master Race" one.
If I recall right, Azlanti had black hair (and red on occasion) with violet / purple eyes. So it's not an "Aryan Master Race" metaphor. It's more of an "Atlantis Master Race" one.
I know, I was joking. Since Cheliax has some claim to ancestry, I thought it would be something like that.
I am just saying that the Atltantis Master Race thing has been used by the Aryan Master Race guys. Tropes are not bad, but the people using them can be.
Let's put it in prospective. the CR 1 template Advanced gives +2 to Natural Armor and gives a +4 to all stats. So when compared to that, I find the Azlanti is kind of mild, especially when most people want Azlanti as a backdoor option for getting Advanced on a human.
Let's put it in prospective. the CR 1 template Advanced gives +2 to Natural Armor and gives a +4 to all stats. So when compared to that, I find the Azlanti is kind of mild, especially when most people want Azlanti as a backdoor option for getting Advanced on a human.
What does that prove? The fact there are things out there that unbalance the game even worse is beside the point. They are also not allowed in my games. As I said I would not allow the +2 bonus to all stats unless I was running a game where all the characters got that. As I stated it is about fairness not the power level. Players are given a framework to build their characters and should expect to keep the character within that framework.
The alternative human racial trait Versatile Human trades out the extra feat and skill points. That is available for players to use. This is also the reason why trading out the human bonus feat is not good enough. I give a generous point buy to my players so they can simply use the points to purchase stats based on the concept.
Let's put it in prospective. the CR 1 template Advanced gives +2 to Natural Armor and gives a +4 to all stats. So when compared to that, I find the Azlanti is kind of mild, especially when most people want Azlanti as a backdoor option for getting Advanced on a human.What does that prove? The fact there are things out there that unbalance the game even worse is beside the point. They are also not allowed in my games. As I said I would not allow the +2 bonus to all stats unless I was running a game where all the characters got that. As I stated it is about fairness not the power level. Players are given a framework to build their characters and should expect to keep the character within that framework.
The alternative human racial trait Versatile Human trades out the extra feat and skill points. That is available for players to use. This is also the reason why trading out the human bonus feat is not good enough. I give a generous point buy to my players so they can simply use the points to purchase stats based on the concept.
Which is valid but as someone above has mentioned the Assimar can trade out a 1/day Light spell to gain an additional +2 to a useful stat giving them +2 to over half their ability scores.
So if someone at your table did that, and the rest where playing humans. What would you do to balance it?
My table does not use Point Buys, we roll dice. 4d6, Reroll 1s as we did in 3.5 where we all started. It is just tradition at our tables.
A Azlanti is a good way to equalize the party if someone rolls really poorly.
We once had someone roll nothing below a 15 and in that same party was someone who rolled two 9s, giving them a +2 boost would have helped them balance out. So I think there is both a mechanical use for that as well as RP purposes for it without just saying shut it down.
Considering their penchant for spectacular mutation (gillmen, morlocks, skulks, etc.), I'd say the Azlanti are less "superhuman" and more "barely human."
And I believe the Arcadians, Varisians, Kellids, Ulfen, Mwangi, Garundi, Keleshites, and Vudrani all predate the Azlanti.
The Tian most definitely did not - they appeared rather abruptly in Tian Xia some time after Earthfall (as in, "hey, where the hell did all these humans just come from? They weren't here yesterday!"), and the first generation Tian may have been reincarneted from the Azlanti who died in Earthfall. (One of the crazier things to learn of in the Dragon Empires Gazetteer.)
What I can't remember is whether the Azlanti were bred by the Aboleths just to see what would happen, or if they were bred by the Serpentfolk in an attempt to make better slaves. Either way, it did not pan out...
(As to original topic - I wouldn't allow someone to begin the campaign at 1st level as an Azlanti, but I wouldn't rule out someone managing to somehow become an Azlanti - or meeting and recruiting an Azlanti ally/cohort later (as actually happened in my RotRL game). The higher level you are, the less +2 to all stats matters.)
And so the cleric (who was primarily responsible for both talking Voan into agreeing with this plan and then saving Voan) took Voan as a cohort.
Let's put it in prospective. the CR 1 template Advanced gives +2 to Natural Armor and gives a +4 to all stats. So when compared to that, I find the Azlanti is kind of mild, especially when most people want Azlanti as a backdoor option for getting Advanced on a human.
Might I inquire as to where that template appears? I think that it is way too powerful at first blush, but rely on new ideas to further my education and enlightenment.
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Let's put it in prospective. the CR 1 template Advanced gives +2 to Natural Armor and gives a +4 to all stats. So when compared to that, I find the Azlanti is kind of mild, especially when most people want Azlanti as a backdoor option for getting Advanced on a human.Might I inquire as to where that template appears? I think that it is way too powerful at first blush, but rely on new ideas to further my education and enlightenment.
The Advanced template appears in the appendix of the Bestiary - I think it's in all of them. ^_^
The Advanced template appears in the appendix of the Bestiary - I think it's in all of them. ^_^Let's put it in prospective. the CR 1 template Advanced gives +2 to Natural Armor and gives a +4 to all stats. So when compared to that, I find the Azlanti is kind of mild, especially when most people want Azlanti as a backdoor option for getting Advanced on a human.Might I inquire as to where that template appears? I think that it is way too powerful at first blush, but rely on new ideas to further my education and enlightenment.
...sending me into a frenzied search!
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...sending me into a frenzied search!The Advanced template appears in the appendix of the Bestiary - I think it's in all of them. ^_^Let's put it in prospective. the CR 1 template Advanced gives +2 to Natural Armor and gives a +4 to all stats. So when compared to that, I find the Azlanti is kind of mild, especially when most people want Azlanti as a backdoor option for getting Advanced on a human.Might I inquire as to where that template appears? I think that it is way too powerful at first blush, but rely on new ideas to further my education and enlightenment.
Page 294, Bestiary 1.
Azlanti Human + Advanced is a +6 to all stats and a +2 Natural Armor.
Otherwise known as... yeah that 10 point buy didn't suck so bad.
Let's put it in prospective. the CR 1 template Advanced gives +2 to Natural Armor and gives a +4 to all stats. So when compared to that, I find the Azlanti is kind of mild, especially when most people want Azlanti as a backdoor option for getting Advanced on a human.What does that prove? The fact there are things out there that unbalance the game even worse is beside the point. They are also not allowed in my games. As I said I would not allow the +2 bonus to all stats unless I was running a game where all the characters got that. As I stated it is about fairness not the power level. Players are given a framework to build their characters and should expect to keep the character within that framework.
The alternative human racial trait Versatile Human trades out the extra feat and skill points. That is available for players to use. This is also the reason why trading out the human bonus feat is not good enough. I give a generous point buy to my players so they can simply use the points to purchase stats based on the concept.
Which is valid but as someone above has mentioned the Assimar can trade out a 1/day Light spell to gain an additional +2 to a useful stat giving them +2 to over half their ability scores.
So if someone at your table did that, and the rest where playing humans. What would you do to balance it?
My table does not use Point Buys, we roll dice. 4d6, Reroll 1s as we did in 3.5 where we all started. It is just tradition at our tables.
A Azlanti is a good way to equalize the party if someone rolls really poorly.We once had someone roll nothing below a 15 and in that same party was someone who rolled two 9s, giving them a +2 boost would have helped them balance out. So I think there is both a mechanical use for that as well as RP purposes for it without just saying shut it down.
That option was from an older 3.5 book so I don’t use that option. I let my players use any normal race and use any Pathfinder option, but no 3.5 or third party options. The reason I use a point buy instead of rolling is to avoid exactly that situation. I let my players know what the campaign rules are and what is allowed. If someone wants to do something different and I am willing to run it I will discuss it with the group and if that is what we decide to play then that is declared before the campaign is started.
If it is something that does not affect the game mechanic than the players are free to do what they want. So if someone wants to say they are a pureblood Azlanti or even the child of a god no problem. They will get no extra benefit from it though.
That option was from an older 3.5 book so I don’t use that option. I let...Let's put it in prospective. the CR 1 template Advanced gives +2 to Natural Armor and gives a +4 to all stats. So when compared to that, I find the Azlanti is kind of mild, especially when most people want Azlanti as a backdoor option for getting Advanced on a human.What does that prove? The fact there are things out there that unbalance the game even worse is beside the point. They are also not allowed in my games. As I said I would not allow the +2 bonus to all stats unless I was running a game where all the characters got that. As I stated it is about fairness not the power level. Players are given a framework to build their characters and should expect to keep the character within that framework.
The alternative human racial trait Versatile Human trades out the extra feat and skill points. That is available for players to use. This is also the reason why trading out the human bonus feat is not good enough. I give a generous point buy to my players so they can simply use the points to purchase stats based on the concept.
Which is valid but as someone above has mentioned the Assimar can trade out a 1/day Light spell to gain an additional +2 to a useful stat giving them +2 to over half their ability scores.
So if someone at your table did that, and the rest where playing humans. What would you do to balance it?
My table does not use Point Buys, we roll dice. 4d6, Reroll 1s as we did in 3.5 where we all started. It is just tradition at our tables.
A Azlanti is a good way to equalize the party if someone rolls really poorly.We once had someone roll nothing below a 15 and in that same party was someone who rolled two 9s, giving them a +2 boost would have helped them balance out. So I think there is both a mechanical use for that as well as RP purposes for it without just saying shut it down.
The Aasimar option is not 3.5. It is a alternate racial thing that can be done for the Aasimar in Pf which is in the Features Races of the Advanced Races Guide.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/other-races/featured-races/arg-aasimar bottom of page, sure this is a 3rd party room but it is a valid variant.
Azlanti Human + Advanced is a +6 to all stats and a +2 Natural Armor.
Otherwise known as... yeah that 10 point buy didn't suck so bad.
"Sure, I'll play a core only monk"